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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:17AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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This is true, but the +1/+1 counter does not benefit the land until its moved to a creature that has the charateristic that the +1/+1 counter would benifit.
Which is the same for a planeswalker and loyalty counters.
Exactly. The Loyalty Counters on Kraj don't actually modify any characteristics of the Kraj, because it doesn't have Loyalty and can't unless it becomes a Planeswalkers. However, the Counters can still be placed upon and removed from Kraj as a cost for the abilities that it now has thanks to creature-Jace having a +1/+1 counter on it, because the ability, while inherently on a Planeswalker, doesn't care what its source is, and it doesn't care whether or not the object that is the source has any Loyalty, only that it can have counters being placed on it (that is, if Tatterkiet somehow gained PW abilities, it couldn't ever do the +cost ability).
MTG Rules Advisor 
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:38AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2009
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This combo works, and it has been consistently ruled across the boards that it works.
You are mistaken. I know that it works. That is different.
Then maybe you can help me. Of course I can put into my own words that because Kraj isn't a Planeswalker, that he doesn't need to have Loyalty to use the Planeswalker's activated abilites without loyalty, and that he isn't bound by the rules of those permanents. I don't think my own words are going to be enough to satisfy my opponent if I beat them with this combo that they disagree with.
Nerphice himself is a perfect example (no offense, Nerphice :D ). He doesn't know how the rule works, but so far, we (I) can't explain it to him in a way that is concrete and unable to be misinterperated using the rules.
Suppose I make this play. A judge is called. The judge rules in favor of my opponent, but can't quote what rule he/she is using to determine this, even though I know the combo works. What happens? Better yet, How would a High-Level (4, maybe? I'm not sure how it goes) judge at a major event explain this interaction?
When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done? 
btw, Nerphice. If you could please stop arguing in my thread, that would be very appreciated. I know that this combo works, and clearly so do other posters in this thread, and others in the past. I heard it worked in the first place, which is why I'm asking how it works. Arguing to the contratry is only causing other posters to respond to you, which is not doing anything for me getting closer to a solid anwer to my question. I'm just looking for an anwser that works, not a debate. Thanks for your understanding.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:40AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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Then maybe you can help me. Of course I can put into my own words that because Kraj isn't a Planeswalker, that he doesn't need to have Loyalty to use the Planeswalker's activated abilites without loyalty, and that he isn't bound by the rules of those permanents. I don't think my own words are going to be enough to satisfy my opponent if I beat them with this combo that they disagree with.
Nerphice himself is a perfect example (no offense, Nerphice :D ). He doesn't know how the rule works, but so far, we (I) can't explain it to him in a way that is concrete and unable to be misinterperated using the rules.
Suppose I make this play. A judge is called. The judge rules in favor of my opponent, but can't quote what rule he/she is using to determine this, even though I know the combo works. What happens? Better yet, How would a High-Level (4, maybe? I'm not sure how it goes) judge at a major event explain this interaction?
When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done?
If your opponent tells you that it doesn't work, as him to find the rules that say counters can't be added or removed from a permanent just because it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic. Also, point him to the same card I've referenced twice as proof that a card can indeed have counters added to it and removed from it even if it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic.
Nerphice is an example of someone who stubbornly refuses to accept that the rules say what the rules say and do not say what he or she wants them to say, even when given proof that he or she is wrong.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:42AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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This is true, but the +1/+1 counter does not benefit the land until its turned into a creature or moved to a creature (which has charateristic that the +1/+1 counter would benifit.)
Which is the same for a creature with loyalty counters (turn it into a planeswalker or give the counters to a planeswalker so it can have the characteristic to use them, but the creature cant gain the counters to use them in the first place by using the ability)
Again my opinion
If Llanowar Reborn  were to somehow copy the activated ability of Triskelion  while remaining a land and not a creature (there's no card that does that, but there could be), then it could remove its +1/+1 counter to deal a point of damage, even though it doesn't have power and toughness. The presence of the counters is independent of the characteristics they affect.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:51AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done?
In whatever way it happens, the Planeswalker (we'll say Jace) becomes a creature. This could be done with Memnarch + Karn, Memnarch + March of the Machines  , Mycosynth Lattice  + Karn, or Mycosynth Lattice + March of the Machines. There are other ways, but one of those combos is the easiest ways to do it.
Then, the Planeswalker Creature is given a +1/+1 counter in some method, such as the natural activated ability of Kraj.
Now, since the Planeswalker Creature has a +1/+1 counter on it, it qualifies for the static ability of Kraj that grants Kraj the activated abilities of any creature with at least one +1/+1 counter on it.
Since the rules only say that a Planeswalker may use one of its abilities (any abilities, not just the printed ones) once per turn on your own turn only when you could normally play a sorcery and Kraj is not a Planeswalker, it is not subject to the 'once per turn blah blah' rule.
Since the cost of the abilities involves adding and removing loyalty counters and there is no rule prohibiting the use of Loyalty Counters on a permanent even if that permanent doesn't have the characteristic "Loyalty," you may add (and must start off with the +cost ability at least once) and remove Loyalty Counters to your heart's content.
The result is that a Kraj with the abilities of a Planeswalker can use any combination of any number of those abilities any number of times.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 1:53AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2009
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If your opponent tells you that it doesn't work, as him to find the rules that say counters can't be added or removed from a permanent just because it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic. Also, point him to the same card I've referenced twice as proof that a card can indeed have counters added to it and removed from it even if it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic.
Sounds good.
Here's the tough part. How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."
Also, something else to consider (and I know this is completely different, so don't let it sidetrack us). The ability now uses the stack, correct? Say I use Kraj to "+2: Each player draws a card." My opponent draws a Maelstrom Pulse  , and casts it targeting Kraj. Can I continue to stack triggers of that on the stack, as well as triggers of "-10: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." (once I get that high), so my opponent is decked before the Pulse resolves?
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 2:00AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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Sounds good.
Here's the tough part. How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."
Simple: Emphasize the fact that it's the permanent type "Planeswalker" that is causing the 'once per turn blah' effect on the abilities, not the abilities themselves that are causing such an effect.
Also, you do have to have Loyalty Counters to use the -cost abilities, so you have to start off using the +cost ability a few times. It's just that, since you can activate them with instant-level timing, you can do it a lot, and the fact that he's not a 'Walker is why.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 2:02AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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Also, something else to consider (and I know this is completely different, so don't let it sidetrack us). The ability now uses the stack, correct? Say I use Kraj to "+2: Each player draws a card." My opponent draws a Maelstrom Pulse , and casts it targeting Kraj. Can I continue to stack triggers of that on the stack, as well as triggers of "-10: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." (once I get that high), so my opponent is decked before the Pulse resolves?
Yes; in fact, you can stack all these abilities before the opponent even gets to draw anything, because you can activate one ability in response to the last one before you pass priority, in which case nuking the source won't matter.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 2:03AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2008
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How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."
That may be a misunderstanding on your part. You need to play a +N ability in order to amass some loyalty counters on Kraj. The restriction still exists that you cannot play an ability unless you can FULLY pay the cost.
This rule is found in section 107. "Numbers and Symbols":
107.7.
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Each activated ability of a planeswalker has an arrow-shaped loyalty symbol in its cost. Positive loyalty symbols point upward and feature a plus sign followed by a number or an X. Negative loyalty symbols point downward and feature a minus sign followed by a number or an X. [+N] means “Put N loyalty counters on this permanent,” and [-N] means “Remove N loyalty counters from this permanent.” You cannot remove N loyalty counters unless it has at least N loyalty counters. Other rules: In section 120 "Counters" we have this: 120.1b
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The number of loyalty counters on a planeswalker on the battlefield indicates how much loyalty it has. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. See rule 704. Again, this only states how we interpret the existence on loyalty counters on planeswalkers. So a creature won't ever have loyalty. But no rule forbids the existence of loyalty counters on a creature. And to pay for the ability you don't "reduce loyalty", you remove loyalty counters. That can be done with any permanent that has such an ability and has enough counters to pay for the cost. Next, for the restrictions: 306.7.
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A player may activate an ability of a planeswalker any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of its activated abilities have been activated that turn. This talks about any activated abilities a planeswalker has. Since the ability is not found on a planeswalker, but on a creature, the restriction doesn't apply. Hope this helps.
DCI L2 Judge "When nothing remains, everything is equally possible." - One With Nothing 
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4 years ago ::
Jul 31, 2009 - 2:15AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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Again, this only states how we interpret the existence on loyalty counters on planeswalkers. So a creature won't ever have loyalty. But no rule forbids the existence of loyalty counters on a creature. And to pay for the ability you don't "reduce loyalty", you remove loyalty counters. That can be done with any permanent that has such an ability and has enough counters to pay for the cost.
In particular, after we turn Jace into a creature, we could then play Ixidron  and turn him face down. At that point he will cease to be a planeswalker, and will become a 2/2 creature with no abilities, but he will still have exactly as many loyalty counters as he had when you turned him over. We could also make him only a land, or only an enchantment, through similarly convoluted procedures, and he'd keep the loyalty counters that way too. Counters and permanent types don't need to match.
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Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
