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Switch to Forum Live View Experiment Kraj and Infinite Uses of Planeswalker Abilites.
4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 9:50PM #1
Biomechanika
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 12
Experiment Kraj
Memnarch
Karn, Silver Golem
Jace Beleren

I read somewhere that this works, and I'm looking for hard rules confirmation.

Have Experiment Kraj, Memnarch, Karn, and Jace in play.
Use Memnarch's ability to make Jace Beleren an artifact.
Use Karn's ability to turn Jace into an artifact creature with three power and toughness.
Put a +1/+1 Counter on Jace (either via Kraj, or another method)

Now Kraj has Jace's abilities, correct? Can he use them at will? Can I now draw as many cards as I want, or deck every opponent at the table at instant speed? How exactly does this work?

I'll need comp rules to explain myself if I ever pull this off. Thanks.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 9:53PM #2
fractal
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 2,225
Planeswalker abilities can only be used at Sorcery speed. Apart from that, you're exactly right. Just note that the loyalty costs still apply, and your Kraj will start with zero loyalty counters, so you'll need to use the "everyone draws a card" ability first.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!

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Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
Sunforger / Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard)
Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard)
Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)

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Angel Resurrection
Casual Soul Sisters
Sindbad 's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes
Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback
Morph (No Instants or Sorceries)
Cabal Coffers Control
Zombie Aggro
Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon / War Elemental
Flashfires / Boil / Ruination - Boom!
Call of the Wild
Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover , Sun Titan , and Hivestone Slivers
Rebels
Cairn Wanderer Knights
Only Gold and Spells
Captain Sisay Toolbox
Spellweaver Helix Combo
Merfolk Wizards
Izzet Guildmage / The Unspeakable Arcane Combo
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards
Creatureless Wild Research / Reins of Power Madness
Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension
Anarchist Living Death
Anvil of Bogardan Madness
Shamen with Goblin Game / Wound Reflection Combo
Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle / Clear the Land with 40+ Lands
Doubling Season Thallid s
Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens
Elf Archer Druids
Equilibrium / Aluren Combo
Experiment Kraj Combo
Reap Combo
False Cure / Kavu Predator Combo
Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge
Elf Warriors
Eight-Post
Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread
Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures
Tamanoa / Kavu Predator / Collapsing Borders
Esper Aggro
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor
Theft and Control
Unearth Aggro
Soul's Fire Vampires
Devour Tokens
Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield
Treefolk
Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif
Slivers
Dragon Arch Fun

I'm probably forgetting a few...

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 9:55PM #3
onlainari
Date Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 2,436
Ah well it was an easy question until you asked for comp rules. There are no comp rules. The closest is the comp rule saying planeswalkers can only use their abilities once a turn.

306.7. A player may activate an ability of a planeswalker any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of its activated abilities have been activated that turn.

Then you extrapolate that there's nothing stopping kraj from using the abilities more than once a turn.

fractal wrote:

Planeswalker abilities can only be used at Sorcery speed. Apart from that, you're exactly right.


Are you sure kraj can't play them at anytime you have priority?

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know.

DCI Level 1 Judge.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 9:56PM #4
jeff-heikkinen
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2001
Posts: 8,352
Activated abilities, unless something says otherwise, can be played as often as you can pay for them, whenever you have priority.

Something says otherwise in the case of Planeswalker abilities, namely the rules for the Planeswalker type. This creates a loophole - those rules don't apply to anything that is not currently a Planeswalker.

So if you make a Planeswalker a creature somehow, and get a +1/+1 counter onto it, Experiment Kraj gains its activated abilities without the usual limitations. It can give itself a number of loyalty counters equal to the number of particles in the universe using the planeswalker's "plus" ability then use the planeswalker's "ultimate" as many times as it needs to.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 9:58PM #5
fractal
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 2,225

onlainari wrote:

Then you extrapolate that there's nothing stopping kraj from using the abilities more than once a turn.

Are you sure kraj can't play them at anytime you have priority?


Actually, no. I didn't realize that the Sorcery restriction applied only to the Planeswalker type as well (teach me not to doublecheck the comp rules for a question). So Instant speed it is, I suppose.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!

My Decks Show
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:

Tournament Decks (4) Show
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
Sunforger / Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard)
Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard)
Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)

Casual Multiplayer Decks (50) Show
Angel Resurrection
Casual Soul Sisters
Sindbad 's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes
Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback
Morph (No Instants or Sorceries)
Cabal Coffers Control
Zombie Aggro
Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon / War Elemental
Flashfires / Boil / Ruination - Boom!
Call of the Wild
Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover , Sun Titan , and Hivestone Slivers
Rebels
Cairn Wanderer Knights
Only Gold and Spells
Captain Sisay Toolbox
Spellweaver Helix Combo
Merfolk Wizards
Izzet Guildmage / The Unspeakable Arcane Combo
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards
Creatureless Wild Research / Reins of Power Madness
Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension
Anarchist Living Death
Anvil of Bogardan Madness
Shamen with Goblin Game / Wound Reflection Combo
Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle / Clear the Land with 40+ Lands
Doubling Season Thallid s
Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens
Elf Archer Druids
Equilibrium / Aluren Combo
Experiment Kraj Combo
Reap Combo
False Cure / Kavu Predator Combo
Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge
Elf Warriors
Eight-Post
Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread
Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures
Tamanoa / Kavu Predator / Collapsing Borders
Esper Aggro
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor
Theft and Control
Unearth Aggro
Soul's Fire Vampires
Devour Tokens
Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield
Treefolk
Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif
Slivers
Dragon Arch Fun

I'm probably forgetting a few...

EDH Decks (4) Show
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 10:05PM #6
Biomechanika
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 12

jeff-heikkinen wrote:

Activated abilities, unless something says otherwise, can be played as often as you can pay for them, whenever you have priority.

Something says otherwise in the case of Planeswalker abilities, namely the rules for the Planeswalker type. This creates a loophole - those rules don't apply to anything that is not currently a Planeswalker.

So if you make a Planeswalker a creature somehow, and get a +1/+1 counter onto it, Experiment Kraj gains its activated abilities without the usual limitations. It can give itself a number of loyalty counters equal to the number of particles in the universe using the planeswalker's "plus" ability then use the planeswalker's "ultimate" as many times as it needs to.


This answer is what I expected. However, the problem is in explaining it using the comp rules. Without comp rules, it would be open to interpretation.

When I do this, I'm fairly certain that I'll need these written down with me so that I can prove that I'm making a legitimate play.

There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 10:35PM #7
onlainari
Date Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 2,436

Biomechanika wrote:

There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.


The best that can be done is find the rules for activated abilities. But the point is there are no rules that say you can only activate an activated ability once a turn. There is this rule though:

115.1b A player may activate an activated ability any time he or she has priority.

It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know.

DCI Level 1 Judge.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2009 - 11:16PM #8
Kedar
Date Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6,209

Biomechanika wrote:

This answer is what I expected. However, the problem is in explaining it using the comp rules. Without comp rules, it would be open to interpretation.

When I do this, I'm fairly certain that I'll need these written down with me so that I can prove that I'm making a legitimate play.

There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.


The rules specify that a Planeswalker can only have one of its activated abilities activated on your turn when you could normally play a sorcery, and only once per turn per Planeswalker-in-play object (that is, a second copy of Jace if you kill the first one off by drawing a card can also have one of its abilities used). The rules do not say anything about the abilities printed on a Planeswalker; in the same scenario as you described, a 'Walker enchanted by Power of Fire couldn't tap for the PoF-granted ability if another ability had been used that turn, and vice versa. No matter how many activated abilities a 'Walker has and no matter how it got any of them, only one of those abilities can be used per turn, on your turn, when you could normally play a sorcery. Conversely, any non-Planeswalker permanent may have any number of activated abilities activated any number of times as long as you can pay the cost, even if those abilities are normally on Planeswalkers but somehow ended up on a non-'Walker permanent.

For example, if a spell ever read --> Target planeswalker becomes a creature with power and toughness equal to the number of loyalty counters on it as you play this spell. <-- The target planeswalker would stop being a Planeswalker, but it would still have its abilities and suddenly you could go hog-wild with playing its abilities. Obviously such a spell will never see print due to that very thing, but that's not the point of my example.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 12:15AM #9
Nerphice
Date Joined: Jul 27, 2009
Posts: 260
If a creature gains "planeswalkers" abilities, wouldn't it also gain the ability that it dies when it has no loyalty counters on it? Therefor his Experiment Kraj would kill itself? (Because it doesn't start with any on it?)

Otherwise this would be a very large glitch in mtg.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 12:21AM #10
Natedogg
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Date Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 3,898
No it would not. That rule only applies to planeswalkers. Gaining the abilities from a planeswalker does not make it a planeswalker.

704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, it's put into its owner's graveyard.
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