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LordBlackwind wrote:

"Without paying the mana cost" does not inherently mean X = 0.

Actually, after more research, we might have to cede this point to Fireball-Debate. He's still wrong about it being a rule inherent to cascade; however,

The Rules]If you’ wrote:

If you’re playing a spell that has {X} in its mana cost, the value of X isn’t defined by the text of that spell, and an effect lets you play that spell without paying any cost that includes X, then the only legal choice for X is 0.

Thing I'm wondering is, is having an additional cost of X in the ability text of a spell considered having a 'value of X defined by the text of that spell?'

In the case of this:

Fireball-Debate wrote:

so when you cascade a fireball you choose x?

The text of the spell says, "As an additional cost to play Fireball, pay 1 for each target beyond the first."

There is no additional cost available to pay into X.
Bond of Agony includes an additional cost that lets you spend life on X.

Still a tricky situation. Good thing we get to argue about this for fun, the folks at Wizards have to do it as part of their job.

The O-ruling on this would/should affect t h e s e as well, right?

Also, If
"If an additional cost could determine X, that value may be used instead." was added on to the relevant section those would work, correct?
And if "If an additional cost would determine X, that value of X cannot be used" was added they wouldn't work, correct?

Also:

"Restrictions on X apply(mana cost, life total (or in the case of Spoils of War a predetermined X)),Alternative cost:no-mana applyed, X is already restricted(0)"

or

"Restrictions on X apply(mana cost, life total),Alternative cost:no-mana applyed, X being determined by mana cost can no longer apply, X can be determined again by other restrictions (life total)"

or

"X is unrestricted, Alternative cost:no-mana applyed, Restrictions apply(life total), X can be determined by restrictions (life total).

Are these the main stances or am I missing the actual rules interpretation stances behind this?

Kedar wrote:

CASCADE DOES NOT MAKE X=0.

WHY NOT!

Fireball-Debate wrote:

fyp
basically you spend 10 life to do 0 to all opponents, if it worked like you initially said.

How do you figure? How could you spend 10 life unless X=10? If X=10 then the effect is a loss of 10 life to the opponents. That's what the card says. And that is what I initially said. It works like how I initially said because that is what it says in the rules.

someone illegally misquoting someone named MagnusMtG]Yes, that is all correct. The rule (not the FAQ) states that the controller of the spell decides the value of X, then the mana cost is paid, then any additional costs are played.

It goes like this:
1) Announce Bond of Agony
2) Controller decides X=10 controller can not decide x=10 because cascade states x=0
3) Mana cost is paid which is 0
3a) Alternative cost kicks in: Cascade says you may play the spell without paying its mana cost
4) Pay additional costs. X=10, so 10 life is spent. you're not paying an adition cost with bonds you must pay what the value of x is. you don't get to choose the life. the life is chosen for you based on the value of x
5) Assuming no responses, priority passes and the spell resolves.

(Emphasis added to altered text)

Re: "controller can not decide x=10 because cascade states x=0"

Yes, that is all correct. The rule (not the FAQ) states that the controller of the spell decides the value of X, then the mana cost is paid, then any additional costs are played.

It goes like this:
1) Announce Bond of Agony
2) Controller decides X=10 controller can not decide x=10 because cascade states x=0
3) Mana cost is paid which is 0
3a) Alternative cost kicks in: Cascade says you may play the spell without paying its mana cost
4) Pay additional costs. X=10, so 10 life is spent. you're not paying an adition cost with bonds you must pay what the value of x is. you don't get to choose the life. the life is chosen for you based on the value of x
5) Assuming no responses, priority passes and the spell resolves.[/quote]
(Emphasis added to altered text)

Re: "controller can not decide x=10 because cascade states x=0"

The Rules]502.85. Cascade

502.85a Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. “ wrote:

502.85. Cascade

502.85a Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. “Cascade” means “When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell’s converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards removed from the game this way that weren’t played on the bottom of your library in a random order.”

502.85b If a spell has multiple instances of cascade, each triggers separately.

Could you highlight where it says "X=0" in the above rules text or something?
I have my glasses on and still can't see it.

re: "Mana cost is paid which is 0"

That is correct. Thank you for the added clarification; though the following statement (3a) implied that.

Re: "you're not paying an adition cost with bonds ..."

Why aren't you paying an additional cost with Bonds? The rules text on the card says, "As an additional cost to play Bond of Agony, pay X life." It doesn't say, "you may.." so it is a mandatory additional cost and must be paid.

"..you must pay what the value of x is."

The Rules]104.3c The symbol {X} represents an unspecified amount of mana. When playing a spell or activated ability with {X} in its cost, its controller decides the value of that variable.
...
502.85a ... “ wrote:

104.3c The symbol {X} represents an unspecified amount of mana. When playing a spell or activated ability with {X} in its cost, its controller decides the value of that variable.
...
502.85a ... “Cascade” means “When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell’s converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost.

"...you don't get to choose the life. the life is chosen for you based on the value of x"

The Rules]104.3c ... When playing a spell or activated ability with {X} in its cost, its controller decides the value of that variable.

Bond of Agony includes an ability with {X} in its mandatory additional cost.

p.s. I am unfamiliar with the abbreviation, "fyp." = 'for your pe wrote: