And they rule that the Bond of Agony trick works...
Then it's CMC would be 1, X in its mana cost would be 0, and you pay let's say 10 life and the opponent loses 10 life.
As a math guy, that makes no sense to me as in my mind X is a variable, and if it's set as a value in one place, that's what it is everywhere, no exceptions!
We'll see how it plays out I guess. =D
This is wrong.
If the Bond of Agony trick works, then its CMC will be (in your example) 11, X in the mana cost will be 10, X in the additional cost will be 10, and X in the effect of the card will be 10. Cascading into it does not make X=0 in the mana cost.
For a similar one: Conflagrate will have a CMC of 15 if you discard 7 cards when you play it via Flashback. You're not paying the mana cost, but the X's in the mana cost will reflect the chosen value of X when you play it via Flashback.
Not paying the mana cost does not mean the X in the mana cost is automatically zero. The rules say that the only legal choice for all the X's is zero in most cases where a card has in the mana cost. The question is whether or not this applies to cards like Bond of Agony , since the current wording of the rule can be argued both ways (that it means the Bond trick does work and that it means the trick doesn't work).
If you cascaded into shining shoal, it would be for zero, since it doesn't have an additional cost that includes X.
However, you can obviously play it without paying its mana cost and have a non-zero X according to the text on the card.
of course, you can't opt to play it for its alternate cost when an effect is already letting you play it. For the same reason, you can't evoke an elemental in your graveyard after you've used the ability on Horde of Notions .
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No, X in the mana cost would still be 10, and its CMC would be 11 while it was on the stack. It would cost 11 and a to counter it with spell blast . Its cost doesn't get set to 11 until it's on the stack, after cascade has seen that its cost was 1 to let you play it.
This makes much more sense to me now. Though I still think it should be X=0, I can at least see where the argument comes from
And they rule that the Bond of Agony trick works...
Then it's CMC would be 1, X in its mana cost would be 0, and you pay let's say 10 life and the opponent loses 10 life.
As a math guy, that makes no sense to me as in my mind X is a variable, and if it's set as a value in one place, that's what it is everywhere, no exceptions!
The problem is that you aren't taking into account that Cascade is looking at the CMC of the Bonds at a different time than you seem to think it is.
For Cascade, it is looking at the CMC before the spell is played, while it is still just a card. At that time, the CMC of Bond is 1. This means that Cascade lets you play it.
Now, when you play it, you choose a value for X as part of playing the Bonds, and put the (now) spell onto the stack. At this point, the CMC is no longer 1, but is 1 plus whatever value was chosen for X.
The only problem I'm having is that one other poster said that "costs never set the value of X" and what you're telling me here is that it clearly does.
The amount of life you pay is X, a cost, which then sets the CMC.
Hey I'm fine with the ruling either way, I'm just trying to understand what the other poster meant (Which maybe I'm misunderstanding)
The only problem I'm having is that one other poster said that "costs never set the value of X" and what you're telling me here is that it clearly does.
The amount of life you pay is X, a cost, which then sets the CMC.
Hey I'm fine with the ruling either way, I'm just trying to understand what the other poster meant (Which maybe I'm misunderstanding)
You still misunderstand. What you pay into the additional cost doesn't set the CMC; what you choose for the value of X sets the CMC and also tells you how much life you have to pay. What you pay into X in the additional cost doesn't set the CMC.
The only problem I'm having is that one other poster said that "costs never set the value of X" and what you're telling me here is that it clearly does.
The amount of life you pay is X, a cost, which then sets the CMC.
Hey I'm fine with the ruling either way, I'm just trying to understand what the other poster meant (Which maybe I'm misunderstanding)
No it's not. You choose the value of X, which determines the amount of life you pay and the amount of mana you would pay. You choose the value of X long before you get around to determining what the spell costs, then you plug the chosen value into the costs that include X to get the spell's basic cost. If, after that, the cost is then reduced by an outside effect, the value of X doesn't change.
The only problem I'm having is that one other poster said that "costs never set the value of X" and what you're telling me here is that it clearly does.
The amount of life you pay is X, a cost, which then sets the CMC.
Hey I'm fine with the ruling either way, I'm just trying to understand what the other poster meant (Which maybe I'm misunderstanding)
409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. If a spell is being played, that card (or that copy of a card) physically moves from the zone it's in to the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and its controller is the player who played it. If an activated ability is being played, it's created on the stack as an object that's not a card. If an activated ability is being played from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. On the stack, the ability has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who played the ability. The spell or ability remains on the stack until it's countered or resolves.
409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase "Choose one ?," "Choose two ?," "Choose one or both ?," or "[specified player] chooses one ?"), the player announces the mode choice. If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 502.40), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell or ability has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being played (such as an {X} in its mana cost), the player announces the value of that variable at this time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special costs that will be paid as it's being played (such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can't apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability. If a cost that will be paid as the spell or ability is being played includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.
409.1c The player checks whether the spell or ability targets one or more targets only if an alternative, additional, or special cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost) is paid for it, or if a particular mode is chosen for it. Its controller will need to choose those targets only if he or she announced the intention to pay that cost or chose that mode; otherwise, the spell or ability is played as though it did not have those targets. All of a spell or ability's targets are chosen at the same time.
409.1d If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each of those targets. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell or ability. A spell or ability can't be played unless the required number of legal targets are chosen for it. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). Example: If an ability reads "Tap two target creatures," then the same target can't be chosen twice; the ability requires two different legal targets. An ability that reads "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.
409.1e If the spell or ability requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost (as determined in rule 409.1b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.
409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid. Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to play. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.
409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a?h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell or ability's controller had priority before playing it, he or she gets priority.
409.2. Some spells and abilities specify that one of their controller's opponents does something the controller would normally do while it's being played, such as choose a mode or choose targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell or ability's controller normally would do so.
409.2a If there is more than one opponent who could make such a choice, the spell or ability's controller decides which of those opponents will make the choice.
409.2b If the spell or ability instructs its controller and another player to do something at the same time as the spell or ability is being played, the spell's controller goes first, then the other player. This is an exception to rule 103.4.
409.3. Playing a spell or ability that alters costs won't do anything to spells and abilities that are already on the stack.
409.4. A player can't begin to play a spell or activated ability that's prohibited from being played by an effect.
409.4a If an effect allows a card that's prohibited from being played to be played face down, and the face-down spell would not be prohibited, that spell can be played face down. See rule 504, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents."
The value of X is chosen well before costs are paid or the total cost is determined. The value of X sets the costs, not the other way around. However, there are sometimes restrictions on what value of X can be chosen, as quoted above.
The issue really doesn't involve any of that, though; that's prerequisite knowledge to understand the conversation. If you would like to understand the issue, I suggest reading this thread in the Rules Issues forum.
From what I understand, Fireball doesn't have an additional cost that sets the value of X.
Neither does bond of agony. You pay the life of what X is. You don't choose the value of life you pay for x. it would be like playing it for 1 black and 1 colorless then saying I pay 19 life and kill you.
