I'm interested to know this one, too. Although I'm not confident in my understanding of this, I'll post my thought process here so it can be torn apart for instructional benefit. :P
The original event is "Put Pulmonic Sliver and Progenitus into your graveyard." (I'm assuming you're their owner.)
If you apply the Progenitus replacement effect first instead, you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver into your graveyard."
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library." (Keep in mind that this is all supposed to be done simultaneously.)
If I were to make a call, I'd take into account that "shuffle Progenitus into your library" is sorta the same as "put Progenitus into your library and shuffle your library simultaneously," and so I'd say that what you get in total is "Reveal Progenitus and shuffle it and Pulmonic Sliver into your library." But I don't really know.
I'm interested to know this one, too. Although I'm not confident in my understanding of this, I'll post my thought process here so it can be torn apart for instructional benefit. :P
The original event is "Put Pulmonic Sliver and Progenitus into your graveyard." (I'm assuming you're their owner.)
If you apply the Progenitus replacement effect first instead, you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver into your graveyard."
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library... simultaneously somehow."
If I were to make a call, I'd take into account that "shuffle Progenitus into your library" is sorta the same as "put Progenitus into your library and shuffle your library simultaneously," and so I'd say that what you get in total is "Reveal Progenitus and shuffle it and Pulmonic Sliver into your library." But I don't really know.
Hmm. I'm still fairly sure that you'd choose which creature's replacement to apply first, but after reading your post I'm not 100%, so I'd like an [o] response as well...
The problem is that the rules don't really support an ordering for replacement effects that don't apply to the same object. Normally, the controller of the affected object chooses which replacement effect to apply first - but here there's more than one affected object. Further, they might not even have the same controller. Back to the Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus scenario - suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus (thanks to Control Magic, Bribery, whatever - it doesn't really matter). Now they both die simultaneously (from, say, Innocent Blood). Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?
If I remember right, nobody got to choose - rocketnia is right that player A ends up "simultaneously putting Gravebane Zombie on top of your library and shuffling Darksteel Colossus in", which has the net effect of shuffling both cards into your library. But you certainly should not quote me on that.
[...]suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus[...] Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?
It's a good point but a poor scenario, IMO. In this case, I'm pretty sure it's the same (weird) result regardless of the order in which the replacement effects are applied.
It's a good point but a poor scenario, IMO. In this case, I'm pretty sure it's the same (weird) result regardless of the order in which the replacement effects are applied.
Eh? Are you saying that "shuffle Darksteel Colossus in, then put Gravebane Zombie on top" has the same result as "put Gravebane Zombie on top, then shuffle Darksteel Colossus in"?
Or are you saying that regardless of which order the replacements are applied, you still end up putting Gravebane on top at the same time you shuffle Colossus in (thus ending up shuffling Gravebane in with the rest of your library)?
The latter is the conclusion that I think was reached in the earlier scenario. However, the point was that there is not an "order" imposed on the replacements at all - indeed, the rules don't specify how to create such an ordering, since they only specify ordering on an affected-object or affected-player basis.
Eh? Are you saying that "shuffle Darksteel Colossus in, then put Gravebane Zombie on top" has the same result as "put Gravebane Zombie on top, then shuffle Darksteel Colossus in"?
Or are you saying that regardless of which order the replacements are applied, you still end up putting Gravebane on top at the same time you shuffle Colossus in (thus ending up shuffling Gravebane in with the rest of your library)?
The second one.
inori wrote:
The latter is the conclusion that I think was reached in the earlier scenario. However, the point was that there is not an "order" imposed on the replacements at all - indeed, the rules don't specify how to create such an ordering, since they only specify ordering on an affected-object or affected-player basis.
Hmm... I didn't really imagine "the replacement effects are both applied first" could be an option, but I suppose it is, for all we know.
What I figure is that if two replacement effects apply without a specific one being applied before the other, most of the time it's because they affect different objects, and so, usually, they would be interchangeable if one of them had to happen first. Applying two interchangeable replacement effects without an order appears to be the same thing as applying them in some particular but unimportant order.
Both of the scenarios we had so far seemed to me like they were of this interchangeable sort too, which is why I brought up a scenario which intentionally posed a conflict between noninterchangeable, apparently unordered replacement effects.
Hmm, thinking about this a bit more, I've found an answer to this "unordered" quandary... which isn't necessarily to say it's a right answer: If the game is having more than one player choose a replacement effect to apply, then golden rule [CR103.4] kicks in, and players decide in APNAP order. The active player "makes any choices required," so he or she chooses replacement effects and applies them one at a time until there are no more replacement effects that replace parts of the event that affect permanents he or she controls. Then the rest of the players do this in turn order.
In my scenario, this would mean that I (controller of Pyrohemia, so presumably the active player) would choose to apply Furnace of Rath's replacement effect and then Phytohydra's replacement effect. Then Watchwolf's controller would begrudgingly apply Benevolent Unicorn's effect and watch the Watchwolf die.
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library." (Keep in mind that this is all supposed to be done simultaneously.)
Correct. Just like Enlighten Tutor tells you to shuffle your library while the card you just found is still in it. (And no, the word "then" isn't needed; it just makes it clearer what has to happen.)
It isn't defined in the rules, but when the net effect is "shuffle your library but keep track of card X so you can do something with it," you actually can keep track of card X. Essentially, in this scenario you are told to simultaneaously put two cards into your library and randomize it EXCEPT for the one card you were told to keep track of. It goes on top.
inori wrote:
The problem is that the rules don't really support an ordering for replacement effects that don't appy to the same object.
Sure they do. You use APNAP order. You are over-interpreting the first sentence of rule 419.9a. It doesn't mean that the rule applies individually to each object and/or player "affected" that way. It means it applies whenever an object and/or player is affected that way. Think about it - what would be the point of applying APNAP (see the last sentence) if the rule applied individually? There would only ever be one player, for each application of the rule.
Just change the first occurrence of the word "an" to "any," and you'll see what I mean.
Back to the Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus scenario - suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus (thanks to Control Magic, Bribery, whatever - it doesn't really matter). Now they both die simultaneously (from, say, Innocent Blood). Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?
Their controllers. But don't confuse "apply the replacement" with "perform the action in the replacement." All applying it does, is change what the next event is. Nothing actually happens, until it is done being changed. Then it all happens at once.
Again, not clearly in the rules: but each player applies the full effect of each replacement to the event as it affects ALL of their own creatures and/or selves AT THE SAME TIME. So each player can order Furnace and Unicorn differently, but they have to be the same way for all of one player's creatures. This is because the rule says, paraphrased, "A player with such a choice chooses one effect to apply." And, as I said before, this choice refers to all applicible replacement effects at that moment.
I'm pretty sure you get to stack your graveyard from wrath of god effects. Personnaly i'm thinking they resolve in the order you stack them to the graveyard but i'm waiting on a confirmation from wizard still.
How would this work if you can't choose the order anyway?
I'm pretty sure you get to stack your graveyard from wrath of god effects.
You do.
When multiple objects enter the same zone as a result of a single effect, their owner orders them in the destination zone. They still all leave the departure zone (in play, in this case) at once. After the creatures are put into the graveyard, the Wrath of God card is put into its owner's graveyard on top of all the destroyed creatures.
