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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:00PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jul 26, 2007
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The point of this thread is that the you should know the contents of your Deck.
And, once you have removed your entire Deck via Cascade, and your opponent knows the contents of your Deck, your opponent CAN request that you Shortcut the Actions the next Time you play a Spell with Cascade.
It's your opponent that's making the request, NOT you.
You are not expected to know the contents of your decklist and DCI floor rules prevent having a copy of it that you may consult in match, ie, outside notes.
Because of this, the public information of the decklist is relevant information for both players.
Just because I may remember the contents of my deck, does not mean that I may be forced forfeit public information.
For the same reason that my opponent can insist on a reveal, so can you.
That simple.
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares: Spoiler:
Show
Malpheas: THANK YOU FOR THE FOIL TIBALT, YOU BEAUTIFUL GUY, YOU!
Suudsu2200: Armageddon! Sèance, Dominating Licid, Words of War, Gaea's Anthem, Momentous Fall, Nyxathid
PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best.
Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:03PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Because of this, the public information of the decklist is relevant information for both players.
Just because I may remember the contents of my deck, does not mean that I may forfeit public information.
That simple.
You are of course permitted to look at the cards, but that doesn't give you permission to stall.
If you are spending an unreasonable time resolving the cascades, you are guilty of Slow Play. If you are intentionally spending an unreasonable time resolving the cascades, you are guilty of stalling.
Given that you built your deck, you are playing with your deck, you have presumably played with your deck in the past, and you have already seen the entirety of your deck on a previous full-deck-cascade, the amount of time you can spend looking at your deck before it becomes unreasonable is very small.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:07PM
#33
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You are not expected to know the contents of your decklist and DCI floor rules prevent having a copy of it that you may consult in match, ie, outside notes.
Because of this, the public information of the decklist is relevant information for both players.
Just because I may remember the contents of my deck, does not mean that I may be forced forfeit public information.
For the same reason that my opponent can insist on a reveal, so can you.
That simple.
That's fine. You can reveal the library again. But you haven't explained why you think it is justified to reveal the library one card at a time after it's already known that there's no card that matches rather than just flipping it over all at once, then shuffling after everyone has gleaned whatever info they "needed" from it.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:10PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2004
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You are not expected to know the contents of your decklist and DCI floor rules prevent having a copy of it that you may consult in match, ie, outside notes.
Because of this, the public information of the decklist is relevant information for both players.
Just because I may remember the contents of my deck, does not mean that I may forfeit public information.
That simple.
Since you submit the deck with a decklist in any tournament, you SHOULD know the contents of your decklist. Claiming that you cannot know your own deck is bull, and you know it. Second, the argument here on behavior has much to do with the SECOND time you perform this action, not the first, where it is revealed, after you rfg your entire library (which you cannot possibly forget, Islands) that you have no nonland cards with cmc 2 or less. By reiterating the step by step behavior, you are intentionally stalling.
No. Obviously it isn't infinite, but each cascade spell will take 5+ minutes for the resolve and shuffle. Next turn, the same. etc.
Should force 1-0-1 wins.
This right here indicates that you refuse to take a shortcut.
51. Shortcuts
A shortcut is an action taken by players to skip parts of the technical play sequence without explicitly announcing them. Shortcuts are essential for the smooth play of a game, as they allow players to play in a clear fashion without getting bogged down in the minutia of the rules. Most shortcuts involve skipping one or more priority passes to the mutual understanding of all players; if a player wishes to demonstrate or use a new shortcut entailing any number of priority passes, they must be clear where the game state will end up as part of the request.
So do not claim that the rules force you to repeat the actions in toto as has been claimed (although I do not say by you) in the other thread.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."
"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:17PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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First, planning on running out the clock to force 1-0-1 match results is prima facie stalling. Maybe the judge will realize that was your intent. Maybe not. But it's still stalling. As an alternate example, choosing Tidewater Minion  as the target of its "  : Untap target permanent." is a legal play, but doing so repeatedly for no other purpose than to kill time is exactly what the stalling penalty is for. (And if someone wants to bring up the loop rules, let me point out that it is possible to add Seeker of Skybreak  and switch between those two in an aperiodic sequence.)
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:19PM
#36
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- Celestial Teapots are broken!
Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2007
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I think any arguments about maybe not knowing what's in your deck are disingenuous, or at least not relevant to this situation.
The OP makes it clear that this situation is about intentionally adding cascade cards from that sideboard that you know will not find anything and then use those in order to take excessive time so that the game will end in a draw.
There's a world of difference between "I play a cascade card and forgot that my library no longer has any nonland cards with lower CMC" and "I know what my deck contains and will thus add cascade cards in order to waste time so that we can't complete the game".
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:57PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jul 26, 2007
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First, planning on running out the clock to force 1-0-1 match results is prima facie stalling. Maybe the judge will realize that was your intent. Maybe not. But it's still stalling.
As an alternate example, choosing Tidewater Minion as the target of its ": Untap target permanent." is a legal play, but doing so repeatedly for no other purpose than to kill time is exactly what the stalling penalty is for. (And if someone wants to bring up the loop rules, let me point out that it is possible to add Seeker of Skybreak and switch between those two in an aperiodic sequence.)
That is not analogous.
That does not change the information pools of either player.
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares: Spoiler:
Show
Malpheas: THANK YOU FOR THE FOIL TIBALT, YOU BEAUTIFUL GUY, YOU!
Suudsu2200: Armageddon! Sèance, Dominating Licid, Words of War, Gaea's Anthem, Momentous Fall, Nyxathid
PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best.
Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:57PM
#38
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2008
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There's a world of difference between "I play a cascade card and forgot that my library no longer has any nonland cards with lower CMC" and "I know what my deck contains and will thus add cascade cards in order to waste time so that we can't complete the game".
I agree. I think if ALL of us wound up in this situation it'd be REAL easy to figure out what your opponent was doing. If you never even encountered a card with the cascade effect in the first game, then suddenly in game two you are facing cascade cards that don't reveal anything relevant, in MHO you'd have to be pretty dense not to see that you were being jackpotted.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 3:04PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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That does not change the information pools of either player.
Neither does your situation, unless you are willfully forgetful.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 3:10PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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That is not analogous.
That does not change the information pools of either player.
If there are no cards in the library that can be chosen by the cascade ability, the difference between spreading out the library and revealing its cards one at a time also does not affect the information pools. The only difference is the amount of time killed. Hence, stalling.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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