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4 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:51PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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I understand how this combo uses stack manipulation to produce infinite colorless mana by using Rings of Brighthearth  to copy Basalt Monolith  's untap ability. The Basalt monolith  - Power Artifact  combo produces colorless mana 2 at a time (I make sure to use even amounts so i don't burn) while the Grim Monolith  - Power Artifact combo makes it one at a time, so you don't have to worry about burn. My question is about the practical application of the Rings combo in a game. What is the minimum amount of mana you can produce with this combo and return your artifacts to their original position? Everytime i do it in my head, it seems as tho, it requires 2 external mana to "prime the pump" and if you don't leave 2 mana floating in your pool, you can't produce infinite mana again in the same turn. So in game, as long as you have the 2 artifacts in play, the correct way to shortcut this process is to say "As long as i have these 2 artifacts in play (the monolith is untapped) I can pay 2 mana (ie: from 2 lands) to produce any amount of mana." Is this correct? Thanks in advance. For those who don't know how the brighthearth combo works, here it is: 1. Basalt Monolith is tapped and you have {5} floating. 2. Pay {3} to put the "Untap Basalt Monolith" on the stack. 3. Pay {2} to put a copy of "Untap Basalt Monolith" on the stack. Stack starts resolving. 4. Resolve the copy of "Untap Basalt Monolith" and Basalt Monolith untaps. 5. Tap Basalt Monolith for {3}. Abilities that add mana to your mana pool don't use the stack. You get the mana immediately. Basalt Monolith is now tapped. 6. Resolve the original "Untap Basalt Monolith" and Basalt Monolith untaps. 7. Now tap Basalt Monolith for {3} you now have Basalt Monolith tapped and you have {6} floating and you are back to your starting position with 1 extra mana.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 10, 2009 - 9:55PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2003
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So in game, as long as you have the 2 artifacts in play, the correct way to shortcut this process is to say "As long as i have these 2 artifacts in play (the monolith is untapped) I can pay 2 mana (ie: from 2 lands) to produce any amount of mana." Is this correct?
Yes, that seems correct, as does everything else in your post. By putting in two "external" mana, you can provide any amount of colorless mana from {0} on up. (If you produce more than you end up needing, you have an indefinite "mana sink" by repeating the process except without tapping the Monolith in between the two untaps.) Hooray for removing power-level errata... someday they'll have to restrict Basalt Monolith because of that, mark my words 
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4 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2009 - 1:43AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2009
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why do you have to pay 2 external mana if you can just tap basalth monolith once and the 3 generated mana is used to untap it, then tap it again for 3, then since the untap ability had activated, you could use the 2 from the 3 floated mana with rings of brighthearth to untap basalt monolith. i think as long as these 2 artifacts are out, you don't need an external source of 2 mana to make infinite mana.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2009 - 2:13AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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At the beginning, when you have no mana in the pool, you need 3 mana to untap the monolith (which it can produce itself if it is untapped) AND 2 mana to copy that ability with the rings. That 2 mana has to come from somewhere other than the combo to begin with. Once the combo is started, however, you're set and can produce as much mana as you want (including enough to start the combo again if you want), but at the very beginning you need the 2 extra.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 4:01AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2009
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i am still not convinced. i still think you could float the mana for 3 the second time you tap basalt then use that mana to pay the ability of ring of brighthearth. i don't see why you cannot do this?
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 4:05AM
#6
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i am still not convinced. i still think you could float the mana for 3 the second time you tap basalt then use that mana to pay the ability of ring of brighthearth. i don't see why you cannot do this?
By the time the Monolith's untap ability resolves (so you can tap it again), you can't copy that ability with rings, since the Rings trigger will have resolved some time before. Like this:
1. Tap Monolith. Mana ability, hence add 3 immediately. 2. Pay 3 for untap ability, untap ability goes on stack. 3. Rings sees an activated ability going on stack, triggers. 4. Rings trigger resolves. At this point, you have to choose whether or not to pay 2. 5. (assuming you don't pay 2) Untap ability resolves. 6. Then you can tap Monolith again.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 4:54AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2009
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Still not clear to me and i am still not convinced. sorry for being so hard headed but it just doesn't make sence to me. Doing the process give's you one floated mana. Once you repeat the process, will you need another 2 outside mana to pay rings' ability?
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 5:11AM
#8
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Okay, I'll annotate my previous response with mana in pool. (0 in pool) 1. Tap Monolith. Mana ability, hence add 3 immediately. (3 in pool) 2. Pay 3 for untap ability, untap ability goes on stack. (0 in pool) 3. Rings sees an activated ability going on stack, triggers. (0 in pool) 4. Rings trigger resolves. At this point, you have to choose whether or not to pay 2. (0 in pool, so you can't pay the 2 without an external source of mana, since Monolith is still tapped at this point) 5. (assuming you don't pay 2) Untap ability resolves. Monolith untaps. (0 in pool) 6. Then you can tap Monolith again. (3 in pool) If you don't inject 2 mana in there from somewhere else, all you can do is tap and untap the Monolith endlessly. The key point is: assuming you don't have any other sources of mana, you can never use Rings. This is because The Monolith will always be tapped when the Rings' ability is on the stack. Hence, you can't tap the Monolith again to pay the 2. Regardless, in the very act of untapping the Monolith (its resolution), the activated ability is removed from the stack, and hence can't be copied by Rings. Okay, new approach, if it still isn't clear. How it seems to me that you view the process is this: 1. Tap Monolith. (3 in pool) 2. Play Monolith's untap ability. (0 in pool) 3. Rings ability triggers. (0 in pool) 4. Tap Monolith in response. (3 in pool) 5. Use that mana to pay for Rings. (1 in pool) 6. Monolith untaps. (1 in pool) 7. Rinse and repeat. This is impossible because you cannot perform step 4. The Monolith is still tapped at this time - unlike its first ability (which is a mana ability and hence uses special rules, including immediate resolution), the untap ability does not resolve immediately. Rather, it goes on the stack. At this point, you have paid the 3, but nothing has happened yet. This is also the point where Rings triggers. Assuming nothing else happens, you have to pay 2 immediately. You cannot do so at any later time - either you pay 2 now and Rings copies the untap ability, or you don't and the Rings' triggered ability goes away without having an effect, and will not trigger again until you untap Monolith again. Even if you could pay the 2 later, it would no longer do anything: once the Monolith's untap ability resolves (that is, the Monolith actually untaps), the ability itself ceases to exist. hence Rings won't have anything to copy even if it could try to copy something at this point. If that doesn't make it clear, then I don't know how to. I suggest you read the rules on the stack. And don't apologise for being hard headed. Firstly, it's much better to understand the rule than to just blindly accept its consequences. Secondly, it's a slow night and I'm bored, so thanks for giving me something to do.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 5:54AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2009
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alas!!!! it's starting to make sense now. your step 1-7 illustration is exactly what i was thinking (which is of course incorrect). One more thing, on the next step of getting infinite mana, what do i do next. is it possible to itemised them again just like what you did with steps 1-7 so that i am clear as to how to actually get the unlimited mana? because from the first cycle of mana generation, i get 1 extra mana right? so do i need 1 outside mana to add to the floated mana generated on the first cycle to pay for ring's ability or could i now use the generated mana from the basalt? as much as i wanted to read the rule book, i am afraid that it will just confuse me more  but i will try to look at it later thanks
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4 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2009 - 6:00AM
#10
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How to actually get the infinite mana: 1. Tap Monolith. (3 in pool) 2. Activate Monolith's untap ability. (0 in pool, ability goes on the stack) 3. Rings triggers (0 in pool, Rings' triggered ability goes on stack on top of Monolith's) 4. Rings' triggered ability resolves. At this point, you choose to pay 2 from an external source. (-2 in pool (well not really, but you get what I mean), Rings' ability removed from stack) 5. A copy of the untap ability is placed on the stack. (-2 in pool, copy of untap ability on top of actual untap ability on stack) 6. Copy resolves. Monolith untaps. (-2 in pool, actual Monolith untap ability still on stack) 7. Tap Monolith. (1 in pool, ability still on stack) 8. Original untap ability resolves. (1 in pool, back to starting board position) 9. Repeat ad infinitum. (you'll need another mana the next time round as well, then it's self-sustaining)
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