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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 7:49PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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Hmmm. I wonder on a rules point with Elspeth; when you use her ultimate, does it make subsequently played permanents indestructible, or just the ones in play when she activates it? In the same way that Infest only affects the creatures in play when it resolves, subsequently played things are unaffected. In any case, I still think Ajani is the more powerful option if you were to run a Planeswalker, but really I'm not sure this deck needs either. EDIT: An explanation on why First Strike is (in an admittedly limited sense) evasion: Evasion, fundamentally, is simply a way to avoid blocking. Trample is a form of evasion, because it maintains damage-dealing despite being blocked. Because of that, it means people are less likely to block the trampling creature at all (only if they can nullify all the damage and/or kill the trampling creature will they block). Thus the evasion works even better. (It also has the fringe benefit of forcing them to throw away their biggest creature if they are trying to soak up the damage, rather than 1/1 tokens or something, but i'll ignore that for now). Similarly, Ajani's ability makes all your creatures 'evasive' because it removes the point of the opponent blocking by making your creatures slightly bigger than theirs with the pump. Consider the following (contrived and simplified for demonstration purposes only, the principle can be extrapolated) example: WW v. Merfolk
Show
In play, I have a Wizened Cenn (2/2), and two Goldmeadow Stalwart (3/3).
You control a Stonybrook Banneret (2/3), Silvergill Adept (3/2), and Merrow Reejerey (2/2).
I topdeck and play Ajani, activating his -1 Ability. I attack with my 3/3 Cenn and 4/4 Stalwarts with Vigilance. How do you block?
You can get rid of the Cenn by trading your Adept, but doing so won't kill either of the Stalwarts post-combat, and I still have Ajani.
You could throw out your Banneret and Reejerey as chumps but then you lose key parts to your engine, and my Stalwarts will both survive and hit for 4 or 5 each next turn.
You could double-block a Stalwart and block the Cenn, but by doing so you leave me not only with an untapped 3/3 after being hit for 4, but another hit coming on the following turn because I still have Ajani, plus whatever other gas is in my hand. Not to mention you now have an empty board.
You could also not block at all, and just take the 11 damage. Had I played a Cenn or Liege rather than Ajani, this may have been the optimal plan. You fall to 9, untap, chain out another Banneret, two Reejerey, and then suddenly you're alpha striking me for the win. But with Ajani, you can't even take the hit to leave me open because none of my guys are tapped down.
Basically, you're left in a situation where you can block everything, lose your board and then suffer a bigger swing the following turn; you can block some of my stuff and pull trades, but I'm still sitting on bigger dudes and Ajani and you can't keep it up forever because you are letting at least one creature go unblocked every turn; or you can take the whole hit, keep your board but are rendered incapable of striking back through my fat blockers and the situation will repeat the following turn. Similarly, First Strike acts as evasion in the early game. Noone wants to put their 2/2 in front of it (except Blood Knight, but who attacks with a white 2/1 into that?) because it will just kill it and survive, and net them down a card and play, and up 2 life. Noone will consider that worthy so in the first few turns, before the fat gumpf hits the tables, First Strike is equivalent to evasion.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 7:57PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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Well, for the rest of the game would indicate that all permanants regardless of when they were played would be indestructible. What would you have in her slot instead? Not sure where good card draw would fit though and Steel seems really redundant here. Maybe Colossus? Sygg for card draw?
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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 8:13PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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Well, for the rest of the game would indicate that all permanants regardless of when they were played would be indestructible.
Yeah, that's my first instinct, but it could just mean "The permanents you currently control are indestructible for the rest of the game."
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 8:27PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2006
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@MrIndigo: Good explanation. Understood
I'm working on the Angel-less list, but I won't be able to finish it for a few hours. I'll update the first post when I do finish. Thanks everyone for all the replies.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 8:34PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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Hmmm, how about Battlegrace Angel in the Elspeth slot? Its a bit higher on the curve but she compliments Rafiq wonderfully turn 5 then turn 6 swing with her and she is a 6/6 double striker in the air. Not bad I'd say. Either that or card draw. Maybe primals?
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5 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2008 - 8:38PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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@MrIndigo: Good explanation. Understood
Another, less useful way to think of it is:
"Whenever this creature attacks and isn't blocked, it's unblockable."
EDIT: Actually, Battlegrace Angel as a 2-of at the top of the curve, above 3 Raquis or something, that seems pretty good if you're going the midrange route. I could see that being workable.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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5 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2008 - 12:09AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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One thing I think this deck should really need is CA, we have both Green AND Blue to get CA, someone prop up a list.
Top of my head:
Masked Admirers
Sower of Temptations
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5 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2008 - 12:34AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2006
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So I updated the opening post. Tell me what you think. I did notice the mention of Battlegrace Angel as a 2-of. Should that go in over the Oversoul of Dusk  I currently have sitting at the top of the curve? I still have BoP in my list, and I feel it does make the deck run better. Since a few others are excluding them from their list, this is probably another thing we can discuss. Sygg, River Cutthroat  has been mentioned a few times. It sounds like a great idea, especially with Jhessian Infiltrator. Any more thoughts on this?
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5 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2008 - 2:40AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Sygg was actually one of my original CA ideas, but one card for 3 life loss didn't seem that well in the end compared with his cost...
I thought it was probably better to play Masked Admirers, DAMN YOU HARMONIZE WHY MUST YOU ROTATE OUT
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5 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2008 - 3:12AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2006
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Masked Admirers  costs quite a bit more. I don't want to tie up 4 mana (and more after it hits the graveyard) a turn at sorcery speed for a single card draw. Sygg is also starting to sound less like a good idea to me. 3 a turn should be very easily done. But then again, if we're able to do that, the extra few cards shouldn't be necessary to win the game. Maybe we just toss a couple of Tidings  in just to fill up our hand when we run out of gas in the late game..... We still only know about half the set. Maybe there's some new Ninja of the Deep Hours  or Ohran Viper  coming up.......
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