you really need four each of twincast and plumeveil main. i'm still not sold on dream fracture for the current meta. i'd say take them out and out in an extra broken ambitions and maybe time stop.
you really need four each of twincast and plumeveil main. i'm still not sold on dream fracture for the current meta. i'd say take them out and out in an extra broken ambitions and maybe time stop.
If you play 4 howling mine, you only want three jace, the three twincasts in the MD are fine, but I'd keep a fourth in the SB for the occaisional control match up.
For detractors of overbeing, if you are forced to play a very controlling style, not using mines etc, you can run down your opponents hand and drop the overbeing, it doesn't happen too often, but when it does, it's often GG from there. Not too mention it really hurts control decks, and turbo-fog(whilst being a near impossible match to lose) becomes even easier. There is a plaxe for overbeing in the deck, and I think 3 is the right number, if you're unlucky enough to get thought haemorrhage'd, then you need the overbeing to beat down.
If you play 4 howling mine, you only want three jace, the three twincasts in the MD are fine, but I'd keep a fourth in the SB for the occaisional control match up.For detractors of overbeing, if you are forced to play a very controlling style, not us
a very valid point about overbeing, but never really had a situation were i wanted a big beater in play. i still advocate 4 twincast though, i like to grind with a double twincast on turn seven, not to mention there is four grindings so why not four twincast. i guess since i play a modified stark version then the no overbeing four twincast setup works best for me.
a very valid point about overbeing, but never really had a situation were i wanted a big beater in play. i still advocate 4 twincast though, i like to grind with a double twincast on turn seven, not to mention there is four grindings so why not four
a very valid point about overbeing, but never really had a situation were i wanted a big beater in play. i still advocate 4 twincast though, i like to grind with a double twincast on turn seven, not to mention there is four grindings so why not four twincast. i guess since i play a modified stark version then the no overbeing four twincast setup works best for me.
Twincast is a whole lot worse, if not totally dead in some matchups, without Grinding. a 4th in the board vs blue control to use as a counter is fine, but 4 MD is too many.
I agree about the overbeings, though. I have never wished I had one in my deck for any reason, even after being Hemmorhaged, because Shelldocks, Traumatize, and Jace keep me in the game without a problem.
Twincast is a whole lot worse, if not totally dead in some matchups, without Grinding. a 4th in the board vs blue control to use as a counter is fine, but 4 MD is too many.I agree about the overbeings, though. I have never wished I had one in my dec
traumatize.........haven't used that since ravnica block. i found that it was just to restrictive to my style. five mana sorcery that is awesome in the early stages but not so awesome in the mid-late game doesn't sit well with me. four twincast is really needed for my style
traumatize.........haven't used that since ravnica block. i found that it was just to restrictive to my style. five mana sorcery that is awesome in the early stages but not so awesome in the mid-late game doesn't sit well with me. four twincast is re
I left it to 3 Plumeveil because I really don't want to play any less then 11 counterspells. Dream Fracture doesn't work well against aggro, our hardest matchup - so I changed them to Remove Souls.
Updated with suggestions above. I left it to 3 Plumeveil because I really don't want to play any less then 11 counterspells. Dream Fracture doesn't work well against aggro, our hardest matchup - so I changed them to Remove Souls.
I left it to 3 Plumeveil because I really don't want to play any less then 11 counterspells. Dream Fracture doesn't work well against aggro, our hardest matchup - so I changed them to Remove Souls.
Isn't that what the Flashfreeze s in the 'board are for?
Isn't that what the [c]Flashfreeze[/c]s in the 'board are for?
Sorry if I missed the dialogue somewhere back, but isn't some number of borderposts correct for this deck? It's a psuedo land drop that adds to the mill count. 4 posts in place of basic islands seems like win.
Sorry if I missed the dialogue somewhere back, but isn't some number of borderposts correct for this deck? It's a psuedo land drop that adds to the mill count. 4 posts in place of basic islands seems like win.
I left it to 3 Plumeveil because I really don't want to play any less then 11 counterspells. Dream Fracture doesn't work well against aggro, our hardest matchup - so I changed them to Remove Souls.
Aggro is a good match up, especially since you have 4 evac MD. I'd remove the remove soul in favour of dream fractures, because hard counters are great.
The reason we play the jace and mines, is because it gives us a good match up against aggro. with 4 boomerang, 4 broken ambitions, and three plumeveil, you should have no problem surviving to turn five, where you EOT evac, then get ready to counter on their next turn.
You need 4 flashfreeze in the SB also, because they replace the mines agaisnt BR decks.
Aggro is a good match up, especially since you have 4 evac MD. I'd remove the remove soul in favour of dream fractures, because hard counters are great. The reason we play the jace and mines, is because it gives us a good match up against aggro. with
do you count Jace as helping the aggro matchup? Usually when I'm playing against aggro I end up siding him out since I never want to spend the mana on a guy that is played on my turn and will die to attacks pretty quickly.
do you count Jace as helping the aggro matchup? Usually when I'm playing against aggro I end up siding him out since I never want to spend the mana on a guy that is played on my turn and will die to attacks pretty quickly.
Basically, this deck wants to draw two cards a turn, as long as it's drawing two cards, it's winning. With Jace agaisnt aggro, you +2 first, so they've got to waste five points of damage at least on him, which brings you closer to evacuation and board control. You don't always lay Jace early, it depends on what's on the board, if you're on the play or not etc.
Basically, this deck wants to draw two cards a turn, as long as it's drawing two cards, it's winning. With Jace agaisnt aggro, you +2 first, so they've got to waste five points of damage at least on him, which brings you closer to evacuation and boar
do you count Jace as helping the aggro matchup? Usually when I'm playing against aggro I end up siding him out since I never want to spend the mana on a guy that is played on my turn and will die to attacks pretty quickly.
You got a card, avoided some damage, and in essence, milled your opponent for one.
What's wrong with that?
You got a card, avoided some damage, and in essence, milled your opponent for one.What's wrong with that?
If jace dies to attacks, then it's probably the best card in your deck.
If aggro lets him live, that's when he sucks.
I don't know about that. I didn't have the best record in Regionals (4-3), but I did get Jace to go off twice in one game vs. a Bant aggro deck. I called over witnesses cuz I had never done that before! Jace was at 7 the second time when I finally drew a Sanity Grinding, but didn't play it so I could see if Jace could go all the way. He did! Needless to say, I won that one.
I don't know about that. I didn't have the best record in Regionals (4-3), but I did get Jace to go off twice in one game vs. a Bant aggro deck. I called over witnesses cuz I had never done that before! Jace was at 7 the second time when I finally
I don't know about that. I didn't have the best record in Regionals (4-3), but I did get Jace to go off twice in one game vs. a Bant aggro deck. I called over witnesses cuz I had never done that before! Jace was at 7 the second time when I finally drew a Sanity Grinding, but didn't play it so I could see if Jace could go all the way. He did! Needless to say, I won that one.
You kept feeding them threats instead of just winning?
how does that make a card good?
If you feed them threats that they use to attack jace with, you're golden. If you aren't taking damage, they aren't taking advantage of the extra cards.
You kept feeding them threats instead of just winning?how does that make a card good?If you feed them threats that they use to attack jace with, you're golden. If you aren't taking damage, they aren't taking advantage of the extra cards.
a hard counter being replaced by a conditional counter! Dream Fracture is the second best counterspell in the game right now and removing it is not something i would ever recommend. DNF game 1 hard counters can, if there is space, get sided out for game 2 and 3 conditionals.
unless your meta is aggro heavy you are sacrificing the benefits of the twInsanity better match-ups such as 5cc to attempt to improve against our worst, RDW /Blightning type decks.
if you have an aggro heavy meta i would then suggest that current versions of twInsanity are not the best deck to use if you want to win competition.
a hard counter being replaced by a conditional counter! [c]Dream Fracture[/c] is the second best counterspell in the game right now and removing it is not something i would ever recommend. DNF game 1 hard counters can, if there is space, get sided
a little observation...: Telemin Performance owns a turbo fog deck in 1 spell, they have 0 creatures lol is like "cast and win", or 5 color control, stealing his dragon + his token and with a little bit of luck destroy the major part of his library, so i will put Telemin Performance in my side
a little observation...: [card]Telemin Performance[/card] owns a turbo fog deck in 1 spell, they have 0 creatures lol is like "cast and win", or 5 color control, stealing his dragon + his token and with a little bit of luck destroy the major part of
Telemin performance is a major weakness to the majority of fog and 5CC builds, but why try to improve good matchups when we can focus more on improving the bad ones. Abd many a fog player is aware of there weakness and some have began to side in phage, the untouchable just for that reason. Hit phage with telemin and you auto lose.
Telemin performance is a major weakness to the majority of fog and 5CC builds, but why try to improve good matchups when we can focus more on improving the bad ones. Abd many a fog player is aware of there weakness and some have began to side in phag
Twincast is a whole lot worse, if not totally dead in some matchups, without Grinding. a 4th in the board vs blue control to use as a counter is fine, but 4 MD is too many.
I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree 110% with this statement, if for no other reason that it's possible for it to be it's own win-con completely independent of Sanity Grinding.
I've Twincasted Banefire and Rite of Consumption back at the caster for wins. It's also outstanding in permission wars- can be another Cryptic on the stack for only 2 mana. I've twinned a Cruel Ultimatum which ended up changing pretty much nothing except that I drew into my win-con earlier.
This card gives the control player some serious flexibility that he/she just doesn't have otherwise.
I dunno, maybe you've had different experiences than me, but I've got to say that Twincast has simply been an all-star for me at almost every opportunity.
I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree 110% with this statement, if for no other reason that it's possible for it to be it's own win-con completely independent of Sanity Grinding.I've Twincasted Banefire and Rite of Consumption back at the caster for wi
a little observation...: Telemin Performance owns a turbo fog deck in 1 spell, they have 0 creatures lol is like "cast and win", or 5 color control, stealing his dragon + his token and with a little bit of luck destroy the major part of his library, so i will put Telemin Performance in my side
Is it really necessary? Since they're playing Mines and Fonts to mill themselves just as quickly as we do ourselves, a resolved Sanity Grinding should be all thats necessary, so long as we follow up by blocking any library-shuffling antics with countermagic.
Is it really necessary? Since they're playing Mines and Fonts to mill themselves just as quickly as we do ourselves, a resolved [c]Sanity Grinding[/c] should be all thats necessary, so long as we follow up by blocking any library-shuffling antics wit
I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree 110% with this statement, if for no other reason that it's possible for it to be it's own win-con completely independent of Sanity Grinding.
I've Twincasted Banefire and Rite of Consumption back at the caster for wins. It's also outstanding in permission wars- can be another Cryptic on the stack for only 2 mana. I've twinned a Cruel Ultimatum which ended up changing pretty much nothing except that I drew into my win-con earlier.
This card gives the control player some serious flexibility that he/she just doesn't have otherwise.
I dunno, maybe you've had different experiences than me, but I've got to say that Twincast has simply been an all-star for me at almost every opportunity.
A solid 70% of decks right now run Path, Incinerate/Javelin, and Spectral as about the only instant/sorcerys in their MD. It's not like swerve, where you avoid the spell, your plumeveil still gets killed, you still take 4 to the face, they still get 3 tokens. Twincast doesn't do much of anything without Grinding against all of the biggest decks right now.
@ Telemin Performance: I run 1 SB for any heavy control/mirror. They board out their plumeveils, you win the mirror. You grab their oona/Platinum Angel, they're immediately losing.
A solid 70% of decks right now run Path, Incinerate/Javelin, and Spectral as about the only instant/sorcerys in their MD. It's not like swerve, where you avoid the spell, your plumeveil still gets killed, you still take 4 to the face, they still get
It is a misleading question to some extent. If you take 10 cards, you'll have a lot more variance than if you look at 20. If you grind, twin, twin, you'll see a very consistent number show up. With that in mind, I think mine are somewhere is the 5 and 16 range. But I also play: 0 Plumeveil 0 Overbeing of Myth So obviously my grinds are smaller, but I have a much easier time using Jace's -10. A typical turn 7-8 after I have stabilized is Jace -10, Grind, Twincast for the win.
It is a misleading question to some extent. If you take 10 cards, you'll have a lot more variance than if you look at 20. If you grind, twin, twin, you'll see a very consistent number show up. With that in mind, I think mine are somewhere is the 5
It is a misleading question to some extent. If you take 10 cards, you'll have a lot more variance than if you look at 20. If you grind, twin, twin, you'll see a very consistent number show up. With that in mind, I think mine are somewhere is the 5 and 16 range.
Oh, I didn't mean for it to be statistically valuable in any way. I just thought it'd be fun to throw some low numbers around.
Oh, I didn't mean for it to be statistically valuable in any way. I just thought it'd be fun to throw some low numbers around.
Crazy I know. When I relied on creatures, they'd either get killed or I would have to use Counters to protect them. This way I can focus much more on counter and bounce. Jace is never a t3 move unless I am going against a really slow deck, so he lands and I can protect him pretty well. Or people see me go +2 right away and want him to stick around for a turn before they go after him. That's when Evac and Cryptic really come in handy. Or Boomerang or Unsummon.
Plumeveil is nearly worthless against tokens too since you can only block 1 at a time. He was so so so much better before tokens became the cream of the crop. And before Terminate and Path. Basically the Bill Starks list but more like this one...
Crazy I know. When I relied on creatures, they'd either get killed or I would have to use Counters to protect them. This way I can focus much more on counter and bounce. Jace is never a t3 move unless I am going against a really slow deck, so he l
You shouldn't use counters to protect your creatures, unless at that specific moment in time you will be getting more by it living that turn, ie, if they tap out for a pulse, and they have a 3/4 attacker this turn etc. But generally, if they wanna watse their time killing a veil, why not, save you counters to stop their threats.
You shouldn't use counters to protect your creatures, unless at that specific moment in time you will be getting more by it living that turn, ie, if they tap out for a pulse, and they have a 3/4 attacker this turn etc. But generally, if they wanna wa
Random question: whats the smallest single grind that people have seen so far in their games?
I had a guy Grind me for 26 at a tourney last weekend with one Sanity Grinding. Of course, he was playing 4 Overbeing of Myth and 4 Godhead of Awe, so his list was fairly suboptimal.
I had a guy Grind me for 26 at a tourney last weekend with one Sanity Grinding. Of course, he was playing 4 Overbeing of Myth and 4 Godhead of Awe, so his list was fairly suboptimal.
All the damn time. It is a tough match-up, but I usually bring in 13 cards from my SB for them. I have upped my win% to 50% against dedicated Red Aggro.
All the damn time. It is a tough match-up, but I usually bring in 13 cards from my SB for them. I have upped my win% to 50% against dedicated Red Aggro.
Well, -4 howling mine, +4 flashfreeze, does instantly give you a big boost after boarding, since you have 4 turn two hard counters, 3 XU counters. So your control element is extremely strong.
Well, -4 howling mine, +4 flashfreeze, does instantly give you a big boost after boarding, since you have 4 turn two hard counters, 3 XU counters. So your control element is extremely strong.
Well, -4 howling mine, +4 flashfreeze, does instantly give you a big boost after boarding, since you have 4 turn two hard counters, 3 XU counters. So your control element is extremely strong.
That only really helps if you lost game 1 and have a needle for Figure.
That only really helps if you lost game 1 and have a needle for Figure.
I had a guy Grind me for 26 at a tourney last weekend with one Sanity Grinding. Of course, he was playing 4 Overbeing of Myth and 4 Godhead of Awe, so his list was fairly suboptimal.
my smallest:8 biggest:22
thats with the list that came 6th, which i find in all honesty the best, howling mine is really not what this deck wants... the mono U can control the board indefinetly, in a 3 way game i was sent to 1 life but killed the guy, i then controlled the board for 7 turns without getting 1 point of damage upon me...
my smallest:8biggest:22thats with the list that came 6th, which i find in all honesty the best, howling mine is really not what this deck wants... the mono U can control the board indefinetly, in a 3 way game i was sent to 1 life but killed the guy,
Random question: whats the smallest single grind that people have seen so far in their games?
Smallest....4
Largest: 26
And so far im loving how this deck plays and truly love this deck ^^
Also has anyone tried Dominus of Fealty . I've been trying it and so far it has won me a few games where i couldn't pull out the combo, taking there beat stick and killing them with it is pretty fun ^^.
Smallest....4 :(Largest: 26And so far im loving how this deck plays and truly love this deck ^^Also has anyone tried [c]Dominus of Fealty[/c]. I've been trying it and so far it has won me a few games where i couldn't pull out the combo, taking there
Oh, now I'm glad I'm not the only one that's had such a small grind.
I figure I should contribute to my question. My grind topped out at 23, but that was before I pulled out Overbeings from my deck.
Oh, now I'm glad I'm not the only one that's had such a small grind.I figure I should contribute to my question. My grind topped out at 23, but that was before I pulled out Overbeings from my deck.
Well, -4 howling mine, +4 flashfreeze, does instantly give you a big boost after boarding, since you have 4 turn two hard counters, 3 XU counters. So your control element is extremely strong.
Yeah against Non-unearth Red I usually go: -4 Evacuation (Much less relevant when you take out the mines. Sucks using it to bounce 1 creature since by the time I have 5 mana I am in counter mode anyway) -4 Howling Mines -3 Broken Ambitions +4 Flashfreeze (Best counter out there 75% of the time) +4 Unsummon (What do they run that isn't a creature?) +3 Bottle Gnomes (Block, Sac, save the day)
Against unearth Red I also: -1 Broken Ambitions -1 Island +2 Relic of Progenitus
So.... Pretty much my entire board is to beat R and RB. They are all over the place where I play and I don't run into many other decks that give me trouble like Red does. I find it to be nearly unwinnable for game 1, but this seems to do the trick.
Brassmouth wrote:
This deck scoops against any deck running multiple Lorescale Coatls and Negates.
I know from experience..
Yeah. What?
Yeah against Non-unearth Red I usually go:-4 Evacuation (Much less relevant when you take out the mines. Sucks using it to bounce 1 creature since by the time I have 5 mana I am in counter mode anyway)-4 Howling Mines-3 Broken Ambitions+4 Flashfreez
I'm running a very different version of this deck, as my local FNM is aggro heavy. I run 4 evacuations, 4 godheads, 2 overbeings, and 2 swans of bryn argol (sometimes swap overbeings for dominus of fealty). My highest grind ever is 31 (i hit 5 spirit avatars, a cryptic, a sanity grinding, and some lands). My lowest grind ever is 6. If anyone cares to see a decklist, i can post it. I played in a semi-casual non-sanctioned tournament today and got second place (first was a naya aggro deck which i would have destroyed had i played it).
Round 1: Esper aggro/control, this guy was running a fairly budget build and didn't have a single strategy, he got a sphinx of the steel wind out, i milled him before he was able to kill me. He did manage to kill jace 1 turn before i would have used his ultimate. Second game went quick, i traumatized him then hit him with a double grind for the match.
Round 2: Naya zoo, this guy was serious business. I traumatized him turn 5 and he came back with 3 hellsparks and got me down to 1 life. I had a sanity grinding docked and a twincast in hand and he had less than 20 cards in his library, but i didn't have the mana and he burned me. Next game, i came back with an early grind, but he got me with the hellsparks again. I was at 6 life, twincasted traumatize and he drew game. Third game, i mulliganed down to 4, got mana screwed, he played a bloodbraid then cascaded into a boggart ram gang, AKA the "god" play (according to him at least). I scooped turn 5 or so.
Round 3: Played against a treefolk sort of fog-ish deck. As far as i could tell he had no strong wincon, but he did get up to about 40 life or so. I milled him game 1 with a triple casted sanity grinding. Second game he got frustrated and scooped early.
Round 4: Bye
Round 5: Played against the same Naya zoo deck from earlier. First game i got three boomerangs in my starting hand and just kept bouncing his CIPT lands until i had a sizeable mana advantage. Finally, he managed to get Sarkhan vol out, i kept getting mana flooded (sort of ironic), he used sarkhan's ultimate for the dragons, next turn he swung with them plus a hellspark pathed my plumeveil. In response, i evacuated (crazy play right there). I traumatized him then undocked my sanity grinding. Next game i was stuck with 4 mana pretty much until the end and scooped when he swung with 2 wooly thoctars and 2 hellsparks. Third game he mulliganed down to 5, but still came back with a strong offensive. I milled him down to about 10 cards, then traumatized him. I had a dominus of fealty out, and i stole a wooly thoctar and kept swinging with it (tapping his creatures with cryptics). He couldn't play anything without milling himself from the forced fruition so i actually killed him with the thoctar.
Then i got a jenara from the prize pack, so it was a fairly good day.
I'm running a very different version of this deck, as my local FNM is aggro heavy. I run 4 evacuations, 4 godheads, 2 overbeings, and 2 swans of bryn argol (sometimes swap overbeings for dominus of fealty). My highest grind ever is 31 (i hit 5 spir
I played several games with this deck. I'm sure you've all had success with certain match-ups. A buddy of mine playing an aggro-control deck easily raped this deck several times in a row. The games typically went like this:
My T1: Land His T1: Land My T2: Land, Mine His T2: Land, Ponder (or whatever) My T3: Land, Jace His T3: Lorescale
He Negated any attempt to Boomerang the creature, meanwhile, it kept growing by about +3/+3 a turn. Dealing with that, while trying to mill, and grappling with his other threats was too much. I was typically able to stall him and get him down to about 19 cards, but that was it.
I played several games with this deck. I'm sure you've all had success with certain match-ups. A buddy of mine playing an aggro-control deck easily raped this deck several times in a row. The games typically went like this:My T1: LandHis T1: Land My
I played several games with this deck. I'm sure you've all had success with certain match-ups. A buddy of mine playing an aggro-control deck easily raped this deck several times in a row. The games typically went like this:
My T1: Land His T1: Land My T2: Land, Mine His T2: Land, Ponder (or whatever) My T3: Land, Jace His T3: Lorescale
He Negated any attempt to Boomerang the creature, meanwhile, it kept growing by about +3/+3 a turn. Dealing with that, while trying to mill, and grappling with his other threats was too much. I was typically able to stall him and get him down to about 19 cards, but that was it.
I don't get it. If played right, Howling Mine has made this deck way more competitive. 6 months ago they were terrible, but given what we are playing against they are pretty damn solid. I went from 40%-50% to 70%-80% since I put them in. Add Mines and always go +2 with Jace an it's been looking great. Of course I have to adjust my whole deck against Red, but red is getting destroyed by everyone else, so I see fewer and fewer Mono-Red and BR decks all the time.
I don't get it. If played right, Howling Mine has made this deck way more competitive. 6 months ago they were terrible, but given what we are playing against they are pretty damn solid. I went from 40%-50% to 70%-80% since I put them in. Add Mine
I don't get it. If played right, Howling Mine has made this deck way more competitive. 6 months ago they were terrible, but given what we are playing against they are pretty damn solid. I went from 40%-50% to 70%-80% since I put them in. Add Mines and always go +2 with Jace an it's been looking great. Of course I have to adjust my whole deck against Red, but red is getting destroyed by everyone else, so I see fewer and fewer Mono-Red and BR decks all the time.
Red is only going up in popularity and strength right now. It's the 3rd most played deck in Barcelona.
People are playing decks that beat tokens, and Red beats decks that beat tokens (except 5cc), in addition to not having a bad match vs. BW tokens and beating Faeries, the ultimate beat-what-beats-tokens deck.
Red is only going up in popularity and strength right now. It's the 3rd most played deck in Barcelona. People are playing decks that beat tokens, and Red beats decks that beat tokens (except 5cc), in addition to not having a bad match vs. BW tokens a
Mind Funeral hits for just as much as Sanity Grind. I run 4 and some Sunken Ruins and a couple Mistvein Borderposts. I have yet to lose to a tokens or bant or seismic deck. The only thing I have trouble with is faeries and super fast R/G or R/B aggro. Here is the list, it's been performing amazingly well, my grinds go off for at least 10 almost every single time.
MVP has been evacuation for sure. Least valuable card has been broken ambitions. I am absolutely fine letting them commit creatures to the board, when I will tap them out or bounce them all and then combo out in 1 turn. Only time broken is good is on the play to stop red aggro, but then I'd rather have agony warp or flashfreeze. Sideboard is less stable, only agony warp is amazing in it. Nemesis is good against R/x aggro because they can't burn it out and offers another blocker that can finish the mill combo.
I tried howling mine version. It is bad. All it does is secure your tokens matchup a little bit more, but I 100% win against tokens anyways. Need stuff to help against red aggro and faeries, and howling mine is terribad against them.
Mind Funeral hits for just as much as Sanity Grind. I run 4 and some Sunken Ruins and a couple Mistvein Borderposts. I have yet to lose to a tokens or bant or seismic deck. The only thing I have trouble with is faeries and super fast R/G or R/B aggro
Round 2: Naya zoo, this guy was serious business. I traumatized him turn 5 and he came back with 3 hellsparks and got me down to 1 life. I had a sanity grinding docked and a twincast in hand and he had less than 20 cards in his library, but i didn't have the mana and he burned me. Next game, i came back with an early grind, but he got me with the hellsparks again. I was at 6 life, twincasted traumatize and he drew game. Third game, i mulliganed down to 4, got mana screwed, he played a bloodbraid then cascaded into a boggart ram gang, AKA the "god" play (according to him at least). I scooped turn 5 or so.
Twincasting traumatize doesn't win you the game, it mills like 22 cards, then mills like 11 with the second copy.
Twincasting traumatize doesn't win you the game, it mills like 22 cards, then mills like 11 with the second copy.
I twin-traumatized him when he had like 10 cards left and then just made him draw with jace and dream fracture and then he had one card left by the time it was his turn and i just blocked whatever he could throw at me with my swans and plumeveils.
I twin-traumatized him when he had like 10 cards left and then just made him draw with jace and dream fracture and then he had one card left by the time it was his turn and i just blocked whatever he could throw at me with my swans and plumeveils.
Mind Funeral hits for just as much as Sanity Grind. I run 4 and some Sunken Ruins and a couple Mistvein Borderposts. I have yet to lose to a tokens or bant or seismic deck. The only thing I have trouble with is faeries and super fast R/G or R/B aggro. Here is the list, it's been performing amazingly well, my grinds go off for at least 10 almost every single time.
MVP has been evacuation for sure. Least valuable card has been broken ambitions. I am absolutely fine letting them commit creatures to the board, when I will tap them out or bounce them all and then combo out in 1 turn. Only time broken is good is on the play to stop red aggro, but then I'd rather have agony warp or flashfreeze. Sideboard is less stable, only agony warp is amazing in it. Nemesis is good against R/x aggro because they can't burn it out and offers another blocker that can finish the mill combo.
I tried howling mine version. It is bad. All it does is secure your tokens matchup a little bit more, but I 100% win against tokens anyways. Need stuff to help against red aggro and faeries, and howling mine is terribad against them.
Mind funeral, against a 25 land deck (basically every deck) averages about 9 cards. Depending on your build, Grinding will average 12-15 (mine being 13.66) When you factor in twincast, it becomes a large difference.
Also, Mind funeral is hilariously bad against Swan Combo, which will be huge after 3 of the top 8ed Barcelona.
Mind funeral, against a 25 land deck (basically every deck) averages about 9 cards. Depending on your build, Grinding will average 12-15 (mine being 13.66) When you factor in twincast, it becomes a large difference.Also, Mind funeral is hilariously b
Mind funeral, against a 25 land deck (basically every deck) averages about 9 cards. Depending on your build, Grinding will average 12-15 (mine being 13.66) When you factor in twincast, it becomes a large difference.
Also, Mind funeral is hilariously bad against Swan Combo, which will be huge after 3 of the top 8ed Barcelona.
I agree with Mind Funeral. It tends to hit for way less than I want it to. The only reason you would run it is because you want have a UB deck without the consideration of Chroma. I am still convinced Mono-Blue is the way to go right now.
I disagree (sort of) about Swans though. Some variation of Seismic Swans shows up every 2 months and disappears quickly. I have no idea how viable the Cascade variant is, but I have been convinced that Seismic Swans would be a contender since the day they were spoiled and I was right 4-5 times for 2-3 weeks at a shot. You may be 100% correct, but I wouldn't get too worked up just yet.
I agree with Mind Funeral. It tends to hit for way less than I want it to. The only reason you would run it is because you want have a UB deck without the consideration of Chroma. I am still convinced Mono-Blue is the way to go right now.I disagre
If you are losing to Swans then you are doing something horribly wrong. I of course side out Mind Funeral vs them and throw in bottle gnomes. You just sanity asap and you'd be surprised how often they don't have enough cards to combo out.
Less theory, more playtest please. You only need sanity to go for 10, and mind funeral is simply another thing to throw under shelldock to finish the game. Plus access to agony warp is the win. Also for the chroma count, sure mind funeral is 1 blue instead of 2, but the mistvein borderposts add 1 each so it does nothing to lower really.
If you are losing to Swans then you are doing something horribly wrong. I of course side out Mind Funeral vs them and throw in bottle gnomes. You just sanity asap and you'd be surprised how often they don't have enough cards to combo out. Less theory
Still, every single non-land card i'm running except for 4 broken ambitions has at least 2 blue mana symbols in its cost.
That comes out to 106 blue mana symbols and very good grinds.
Still, every single non-land card i'm running except for 4 broken ambitions has at least 2 blue mana symbols in its cost.That comes out to 106 blue mana symbols and very good grinds.
So after seeing swans make 3 top 8 slots, im thinking of splashing red for Double Negative . That would also give access to some burn spells for removal. What do you all think?
So after seeing swans make 3 top 8 slots, im thinking of splashing red for [c]Double Negative[/c]. That would also give access to some burn spells for removal. What do you all think?
Double Negative's not necessary against Cascade Swans. If you play tightly, you'll only need to counter one of the spells.
BBElf -> Seismic: Counter the Seismic. BBElf will just run into Plumeveil all day.
Bit. Blast (Plumeveil) -> BBElf -> Seismic: Cryptic bouncing Plumeveil and countering Seismic is strong. Often, you can allow them to land a Seismic and just make sure you counter the Swans. Seismic is really easy for them to cascade into, so sometimes just let it go and make sure they never resolve Swans.
Deny Reality -> BBElf -> Seismic you can survive the tempo of the bounce; just counter the Seismic.
Captured Sunlight -> Seismic. Do you really care about their life total?
Deny Reality -> Swans. Man up, take the bounce and counter the Swans.
Bit. Blast (Plumeveil) -> Swans. Counter the Swans. Don't worry about the Plumeveil unless there are several Elves in play, in which case you can bounce it with Cryptic or Boomerang.
This should be an easy MU without adding red. They don't do anything for 3/4 turns, so tempo them by bouncing their lands with Boomerang and Cryptic.
Lastly, if you get a Grind under a Shelldock Isle, you could even encourage them to combo, wait for them to draw most of their deck, then when they've got about 10 cards left in their library, Grind them for the rest of their library in response to one of their draws.
Double Negative's not necessary against Cascade Swans. If you play tightly, you'll only need to counter one of the spells.BBElf -> Seismic: Counter the Seismic. BBElf will just run into Plumeveil all day.Bit. Blast (Plumeveil) -> BBElf -> Seismic: Cr
You guys seem to be missing the point. Mind Funeral is not as good as Sanity Grind, of course we get that. What is IS, however, is an alternate spell that is ALMOST as effective (average of mill 10, if twinned is 20 cards that combined with jace and stall, can trigger your shelldocks). It makes the deck more resilient to discard, to counters, and makes it faster to combo out. Stop spouting "well I'll run all the blue symbols for a giant grind" when the situation comes up that you either don't draw grind, or it gets answered.
You guys seem to be missing the point. Mind Funeral is not as good as Sanity Grind, of course we get that. What is IS, however, is an alternate spell that is ALMOST as effective (average of mill 10, if twinned is 20 cards that combined with jace and
I'm running a mono-blue list and I was thinking of putting in a few borderposts in place of lands because they have blue mana symbols (and the possibility of the occasional turn 4 twin-grind). How many could I put in before it becomes detrimental to the deck as a whole, or should I just not put them in at all?
I'm running a mono-blue list and I was thinking of putting in a few borderposts in place of lands because they have blue mana symbols (and the possibility of the occasional turn 4 twin-grind). How many could I put in before it becomes detrimental to
Every blue mana symbol you lose is a detriment to your grinds.
Every bad card you play just because of the blue mana symbols is much more of a detriment.
Traumatize is much better than Mind Funeral in almost every aspect.
Every bad card you play just because of the blue mana symbols is much more of a detriment.Traumatize is much better than Mind Funeral in almost every aspect.
Except that it can't ever finish, which can be a problem.
4 Jace and 4 Grinding finish easily enough. Traumatize is also the best thing to be holding if your opponent just Primal Commanded to shuffle and plow under your Jace.
4 Jace and 4 Grinding finish easily enough. Traumatize is also the best thing to be holding if your opponent just Primal Commanded to shuffle and plow under your Jace.
You guys seem to be missing the point. Mind Funeral is not as good as Sanity Grind, of course we get that. What is IS, however, is an alternate spell that is ALMOST as effective (average of mill 10, if twinned is 20 cards that combined with jace and stall, can trigger your shelldocks). It makes the deck more resilient to discard, to counters, and makes it faster to combo out. Stop spouting "well I'll run all the blue symbols for a giant grind" when the situation comes up that you either don't draw grind, or it gets answered.
Every card used for mill is one card NOT used for counter, removal, or CA. What makes Sanity Grinding a good deck is that it can mill while having only 4 cards designated to that purpose in the deck (Twincast is versatile), leaving everything else to play permission. Traumatize works because it can achieve great effect as a 1-of or 2-of, not greatly taking up deck space. Mind Funeral has to be added as a 4-of, whilst reducing the power of other mill cards in the deck.
Good mill decks in the past have all designated the absolute bare minimum of cards to the purpose of milling. Solidarity only runs 3x or 4x Brain Freeze . High Tide even runs Stroke of Genius as only a 1-of.
Every card used for mill is one card NOT used for counter, removal, or CA. What makes Sanity Grinding a good deck is that it can mill while having only 4 cards designated to that purpose in the deck (Twincast is versatile), leaving everything else to
I agree with traumatize all the way. If i'm able to dock a sanity grinding or a twincast, i usually traumatize turn 5 if able, then undock the twincast/sanity grinding for the game.
I agree with traumatize all the way. If i'm able to dock a sanity grinding or a twincast, i usually traumatize turn 5 if able, then undock the twincast/sanity grinding for the game.
People worrying about the Cascade Swans...Don't. The Cacade swans is excellent against aggro, but dies to good permission, and Twinsanity is the best permisssion deck in the format. In our Sideboard, we have pithing needles, these help a lot, not too mention counterspells!!!! If they decide to go the "manlands" attack route, Evacuation ends their game right there and then. I'd say the match up is about 70% in our favour.
People worrying about the Cascade Swans...Don't. The Cacade swans is excellent against aggro, but dies to good permission, and Twinsanity is the best permisssion deck in the format. In our Sideboard, we have pithing needles, these help a lot, not too
4 Jace and 4 Grinding finish easily enough. Traumatize is also the best thing to be holding if your opponent just Primal Commanded to shuffle and plow under your Jace.
Actually a counter spell is the best thing to be holding. Traumatize is just a bad card, but that has been covered so many times it isn't even worth going into. But, to summarize: 1. 5 mana 2. Sorcery 3. Incrementally bad as the game goes on. 4. For a 5 mana Sorcery, you need a closer that won't give your opponent even 1 more turn. This card gives them 1 last turn with you sitting on 5 tapped lands. Sad sad times.
zorgling is right about keeping your mill to a minimum and I have never wanted or needed Traumatize. It is unnecessary.
Actually a counter spell is the best thing to be holding. Traumatize is just a bad card, but that has been covered so many times it isn't even worth going into. But, to summarize:1. 5 mana2. Sorcery3. Incrementally bad as the game goes on.4. For a
Actually a counter spell is the best thing to be holding. Traumatize is just a bad card, but that has been covered so many times it isn't even worth going into. But, to summarize: 1. 5 mana 2. Sorcery 3. Incrementally bad as the game goes on. 4. For a 5 mana Sorcery, you need a closer that won't give your opponent even 1 more turn. This card gives them 1 last turn with you sitting on 5 tapped lands. Sad sad times.
zorgling is right about keeping your mill to a minimum and I have never wanted or needed Traumatize. It is unnecessary.
Saying it's objectively a bad card is also a perfect argument aganist most of the cards in this deck.
Saying it's objectively a bad card is also a perfect argument aganist most of the cards in this deck.
Saying it's objectively a bad card is also a perfect argument aganist most of the cards in this deck.
I'm not following you here. What do you mean?
Traumatize is not a good card for this deck. It goes against the main objective of the deck (control) and takes away slots that could hold cards that help the objective of the deck. I have seen so many people over the last year suggest Traumatize and they all come to see that it simply doesn't work. I just looked it up here, and only 1 person has Maindecked Traumatize in a mill deck in years. The reason is pretty simple: It is too slow. Sure, you can hit someone for as many as 24 cards, and sure it's kinda like a Twincasted Sanity Grind on 1 card if you play it early, but it won't ever win you a game on its own. The biggest problem is that it leaves you open because it's a Sorcery. If it were an Instant, I would run 4. The only reason I run Evacuation is its speed. This deck thrives by playing next to nothing on your turn and making your moves on their turn. Then, you can wait for a tap out to Twin Grind them for the win.
{EDIT: Sanity Grinding is now selling for over $6 a piece.... that, guys, is crazy!!}
I'm not following you here. What do you mean?Traumatize is not a good card for this deck. It goes against the main objective of the deck (control) and takes away slots that could hold cards that help the objective of the deck. I have seen so many
If the object of this deck is control, it should be running Oona instead of Grinding/Twincast/whatever bad cards people play to 'augment' that strategy like overbeing/mine.
It's a combo deck at it's base, but instead of going balls out win ASAP, it sets up a situation where it can tap out to win one turn, and just in case they end up having one card left as a result of a bad grinding, still be okay. Traumatize has played an important role in turning on Shelldock Isles to make that possible. I would never, ever run more than two, and running zero is fine, but make sure you don't run a 5cmc Fattie or Howling mine or something else horrible in that place.
If the object of this deck is control, it should be running Oona instead of Grinding/Twincast/whatever bad cards people play to 'augment' that strategy like overbeing/mine.It's a combo deck at it's base, but instead of going balls out win ASAP, it se
I dont like howling mine, overbeing or traumatize in this deck. Is there something wrong with me?
Instead, I run a combination of more counters / time stop / memory plunder (which is great sometimes, and other times not so great).
I dont like howling mine, overbeing or traumatize in this deck. Is there something wrong with me? Instead, I run a combination of more counters / time stop / memory plunder (which is great sometimes, and other times not so great).
I dont like howling mine, overbeing or traumatize in this deck. Is there something wrong with me?
Instead, I run a combination of more counters / time stop / memory plunder (which is great sometimes, and other times not so great).
I dont think so, i run 3 Dominus of Fealty just so i have a back up, i have gone beat down about 4 times so far. And it helps the grinding being 5 blue ^^.
I dont think so, i run 3 [c]Dominus of Fealty[/c] just so i have a back up, i have gone beat down about 4 times so far. And it helps the grinding being 5 blue ^^.
I dont like howling mine, overbeing or traumatize in this deck. Is there something wrong with me?
Instead, I run a combination of more counters / time stop / memory plunder (which is great sometimes, and other times not so great).
Memory plunders is bad most of the time, but More counter/Bounce and Time stop are fine.
I am strongly against running anything in this deck that is only there to help with the grind count.
Memory plunders is bad most of the time, but More counter/Bounce and Time stop are fine.I am strongly against running anything in this deck that is only there to help with the grind count.
Not to nitpick, but under Memory Plunder , you say that it lets you have "eight" cryptic commands.
I'd just like to point out that it only lets you get cards from the opponent : /
Not to nitpick, but under [c]Memory Plunder[/c], you say that it lets you have "eight" cryptic commands.I'd just like to point out that it only lets you get cards from the opponent : /
I dont think so, i run 3 Dominus of Fealty just so i have a back up, i have gone beat down about 4 times so far. And it helps the grinding being 5 blue ^^.
If you're going to throw in an alternate wincon, wouldn't Guile fit this deck better?
If you're going to throw in an alternate wincon, wouldn't [c]Guile[/c] fit this deck better?
If you pllay the howling mines, then overbeing IS a good card as a three of. Giving you insane card advantage as well as a massive wall who can turn sideways and crash for the better part of their life total.
In the more controlling builds, he can be less than perfect, if you're not drawing as many cards, but he does win games.
If you pllay the howling mines, then overbeing IS a good card as a three of. Giving you insane card advantage as well as a massive wall who can turn sideways and crash for the better part of their life total.In the more controlling builds, he can be
As much as I like 5 symbols, I have yet to use the Overbeing to win. And I've been playing this deck for months. I've just played him in desperation for when I don't have an Evacuation, Boomerang, or Plumeveil ready for their next attack.
I'm tempted to swap him for Dominus or Godhead.
More likely, I'll remove all guys and just add in MD Unsummons (which I side in more than half my matches lately).
It seems to me that running any creature-based alt win condition is just asking for trouble. Everyone has Paths in their hand after we've made them draw so much.
As much as I like 5 :u: symbols, I have yet to use the Overbeing to win. And I've been playing this deck for months. I've just played him in desperation for when I don't have an Evacuation, Boomerang, or Plumeveil ready for their next attack.I'm te
Godhead as been a godsend for me (hurr) in almost every match. I'm running 4, so i always hit at least one in my grinds, and when i get it out it destroys big aggro.
Godhead as been a godsend for me (hurr) in almost every match. I'm running 4, so i always hit at least one in my grinds, and when i get it out it destroys big aggro.
Aggro is a good match up, especially since you have 4 evac MD. I'd remove the remove soul in favour of dream fractures, because hard counters are great.
The reason we play the jace and mines, is because it gives us a good match up against aggro. with 4 boomerang, 4 broken ambitions, and three plumeveil, you should have no problem surviving to turn five, where you EOT evac, then get ready to counter on their next turn.
You need 4 flashfreeze in the SB also, because they replace the mines agaisnt BR decks.
I'm going to be taking out the 3 Overbeings in my build for more control options, so the only creatures I'm going to be running are the Plumeveils . That being said, do you think it would be worth it to side in a couple creatures vs. Aggro since they will probably side almost all of their removal out??
Do you think they would board out enough removal to make it worthwhile??
Hey everyone, I just have a quick question!! I'm going to be taking out the 3 Overbeings in my build for more control options, so the only creatures I'm going to be running are the [c]Plumeveils[/c]. That being said, do you think it would be worth
I'm going to be taking out the 3 Overbeings in my build for more control options, so the only creatures I'm going to be running are the Plumeveils . That being said, do you think it would be worth it to side in a couple creatures vs. Aggro since they will probably side almost all of their removal out??
When do you find a chance to play Oona against aggro? Usually they're pressing to beat for lethal next turn so I keep mana open.
Maybe I'm just never lucky enough to have it in hand after an evac...
When do you find a chance to play Oona against aggro? Usually they're pressing to beat for lethal next turn so I keep mana open.Maybe I'm just never lucky enough to have it in hand after an evac...
Its in the TC, just message Atma, he wants you to do it
Cool, thanks, I'll work on it tonight, I have an updated version for this threads OP that I've been working on, so I'll just update it some more
If anyone wants to help with match ups, just go ahead and post what you think the match ups are, and we'll find numbers we all agree on, since a lot of people tend to get annoyed by the match up percentages at the begining of threads.....
Cool, thanks, I'll work on it tonight, I have an updated version for this threads OP that I've been working on, so I'll just update it some more :)If anyone wants to help with match ups, just go ahead and post what you think the match ups are, and we
Cascade Swans: 70-30 As long as we always have mana ready to counter Seismic Assault, we should almost always win this one. Swans don't hurt us because they either allow us to draw off of a blocking Plumeveil or they cause them to draw off Bituminous Blasts which "mills" their deck. Twincasting their Bituminous Blasts and Deny Reality are really fun, too. Just be super defensive and patient before you Grind them out.
Green/White Tokens: 50-50 A very tough match-up that relies heavily on your ability to A.) Draw Evacuation and B.) not lose on turn four. Always keep a Negate or Broken Ambitions ready if you really want to play a Mine or Jace because they WILL kill you the second you tap out. Be wary of what is underneath Windbrisk Heights because that's the only way they can Instant cast Overrun. I would say to hold off on Grinding until you can do it 3 times (2 Twincasts or 2 Grinds and a Twincast) in one turn.
These are the DtB that I've been playing with lately with my team.
Match-UpsCascade Swans: 70-30As long as we always have mana ready to counter Seismic Assault, we should almost always win this one. Swans don't hurt us because they either allow us to draw off of a blocking Plumeveil or they cause them to draw off B
symbols, I have yet to use the Overbeing to win. And I've been playing this deck for months. I've just played him in desperation for when I don't have an Evacuation, Boomerang, or Plumeveil ready for their next attack.
