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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 5:29AM
#21
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I'm not using 'dies to removal' in the general sense that, you know, akroma is terrible, because she dies to condemn.
The angel is only relevant in aggro matches. Period. Control decks don't mind only untapping oona when they want to win, and generally, don't mind not untapping dudes at all in control mirrors. When said aggro matches do not actually have that much trouble removing her, she isn't really that fantastic a play even in the few situations where she is relevant to the game at all.
Compare this to finks, or hierarch, for a anti-aggro 3-drop. Both are vulnerable, sure, but both did not need to survive for any meaningful period of time to defy aggro. If the aggro player wanted to point his char at hierarch, they are down a burn spell, and you put yourself back up out of burn range.
Angel may still stall their guys for one turn, and eat a burn spell, but that's not quite on the same level, when you consider that she is only noticably relevant when the opponent has overextended.
Is a 4cc sorcery speed play that only stalls overextended aggro opponents for a turn really a good enough play? When you can be playing wrath to clear their board permanently?
She conflicts with wrath in a rather annoying way, actually. One can not even make an argument for playing them together seeing as overextending into wrath to get around the angel is not a real option.
Basically, she is worthless unless you are playing against a board you would rather cast wrath on. Concentrating on playing wrath, and having some backup removal has worked much, much more smoothly for me than trying to tap out on turn 4 for angel and watching her die.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 9:00AM
#22
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I skipped post-shm standard, and I just assumed that since I never saw Plumeveil in any decklists that it was deemed unplayable. Is that so much the case? Most of the time isn't it essentially a removal spell that leaves behind a 4/4 flying wall? I appreciate the classic logic that creatures in a control deck are for winning the game, but wall of roots served as acceleration first then a wall, can't plumeveil serve as a removal spell then a (better) wall? It also allows for a bit more of a draw-go style on turn 3, though if you have a finks in your hand you'll probably be tapping out to play that instead.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 12:25PM
#23
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On the topic of Stoic Angel, I agree with Erasmus. She sits in my hand 99% of the time and I am usually wishing "Man, why can't this be a game-ender?" As it stands, despite some good showings in testing (which I will chalk up to me being a decent player over my actual decklist), I am going to re-evaluate what this deck needs to look like.
I think Guile and more maindeck counters would work, as well as the basic removal (Condemn/Wrath). In other words, this turns into UWg control, with the splash mostly for Bant Charm and maybe Rhox War Monk/Chameleon Colossus. Still, I am leaning more and more on the control spells than anything right now. Sure, we lost Rune Snag, but the format has slowed to a crawl (I mean, there is a viable Mill deck, for crying out loud!), so Broken Ambitions, Cancel, Cryptic Command, and even Dream Fracture could be sufficient with a big finisher to seal games up.
I will post a few new lists soon with some testing results soon.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 1:18PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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On the topic of Stoic Angel, I agree with Erasmus. She sits in my hand 99% of the time and I am usually wishing "Man, why can't this be a game-ender?" As it stands, despite some good showings in testing (which I will chalk up to me being a decent player over my actual decklist), I am going to re-evaluate what this deck needs to look like.
I think Guile and more maindeck counters would work, as well as the basic removal (Condemn/Wrath). In other words, this turns into UWg control, with the splash mostly for Bant Charm and maybe Rhox War Monk/Chameleon Colossus. Still, I am leaning more and more on the control spells than anything right now. Sure, we lost Rune Snag, but the format has slowed to a crawl (I mean, there is a viable Mill deck, for crying out loud!), so Broken Ambitions, Cancel, Cryptic Command, and even Dream Fracture could be sufficient with a big finisher to seal games up.
I will post a few new lists soon with some testing results soon. Fracture is better than Cancel and there is never a viable mill deck.
Since the likelihood is that the great Angel matchups won't show up as commonly as Grixis Toast, 'preSB' lists of this deck will be best. Guile and counters MD, Angel in the board.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 2:48PM
#25
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Anyone considered Rafiq of the Many as a beater? He kinda lacks on Toughness side, but is capable of 8 damage/turn for 4 mana. P.S.: also makes mimic ridiculous, though mimic`s place is not in the control deck anyway.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 4:10PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 4:14PM
#27
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Actually, MrIndigo, I was just handily beaten many times with multiple decks by a UW Mill deck that was just absurd. It really was strong, though it was played well which makes a huge difference. Seriously, though, I didn't think it would work either, but I will be damned if it didn't mill me for the win more than a few times. Of course, I was sporting R(b)DW, so maybe that is the key, that is trashes aggro and not control. No idea. Anyhow, here is a new list for my testing purposes: Lands (24) 4x Mystic Gate 4x Adarkar Wastes 4x Reflecting Pool 8x Island 4x Plains Creatures (10) 3x Guile 4x Kitchen Finks 3x Plumeveil Spells (26) 4x Cryptic Command 4x Broken Ambitions 3x Wrath of God 3x Courier's Capsule 4x Dream Fracture 4x Ponder 3x Hindering Light 1x Oona's Grace Sideboard (15) 3x Rune Halo 4x Remove Soul 2x Feudkiller's Verdict 3x Condemn 3x Dispeller's Capsule Not sure if that is going to work or not, but it might. It reminds me a lot of SonicBoom.
Fracture is better than Cancel and there is never a viable mill deck.
Since the likelihood is that the great Angel matchups won't show up as commonly as Grixis Toast, 'preSB' lists of this deck will be best. Guile and counters MD, Angel in the board.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 4:32PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2007
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The lack of Twilight Shepherd in this thread saddens me.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 4:43PM
#29
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I can't see anything better than cloudthresher and colossus as far as win conditions go. Pro-black 4/4 for 2GG that forces aggro to remove it, or send a creature to it's death each turn is decent. Dodging a fair chunk of removal is good too. It also has great synergy with elspeth. I love playing elspeth, giving him flying and +3/+3, then doubling his power for the win.
Thresher is just huge, blocks pesky flyers, removes opposing mulldrifters and others on the way in, and will be relevant as long as faeries still exists in any form, or people start playing bitterblossom in their sarkhan decks.
EDIT: oldhat, I know this thread is purportedly for bant control, but I cannot justify playing couriers capsule, when you can play 4 arcane sanctum without hurting your curve, and play esper charm over it. (especially in straight UW).
It also makes unmake more easily playable, which I think you should play if you won't play bant charm (which is better, really, because of colossus.
Basically, those two cards are the reason that I am playing UWGb control, instead of UW. The fact that green provides better win conditions is awesome, but those two cards are just amazing, and deserve to be played.
To be fair, I don't think the permission is strong enough to support the deck you want to play there. I would also argue that hindering light is less useful than remove soul, at least in the MD. RDW and GWb/GWu aggro are going to be fairly popular, either the bant builds, or the sculler/doran/teeg builds, and they will not feel threatened by you having a hard counter for a burn spell when they want to kill you with teeg stopping wrath and cryptics, or figures and demigods.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 04, 2008 - 6:01PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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Mill always LOOKS viable early on. But then it just isn't. I'm not convinced on the 4th colour splash is worth it for those two cards (Unmake is good, but I'm already running 4 Bant Charm so w/e), and Capsule is good enough that I don't think it merits the splash. I have consistency problems as it is.
Cloudthresher is still my homeboy, but for the moment I'm leaving him aside because the major players in this environment are not 1/1 flyers. He'll come back when they do.
I want to test the Guile thing, because either deterring or reversing Cruel Ultimatum is basically a game win in that matchup.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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