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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 12:41AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Jul 12, 2003
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The hardest sell for MTG vs YuGiOh is YuGiOh does not have set rotation.
The closest Konomi does is have a ban/restricted list of cards that gets changed 4 times a year.
So a $300 investment in a competative YuGiOh deck will be able to be played almost every year, while $300 spent on a Type 2 deck will only be good for 12months unless you play extended
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 12:17PM
#72
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2005
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So a $300 investment in a competative YuGiOh deck will be able to be played almost every year, while $300 spent on a Type 2 deck will only be good for 12months unless you play extended
Until they banhammer cards that you spent $50 a piece on on...
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 3:28PM
#73
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Date Joined:
Jul 12, 2003
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It still will be hard to get a YGO player to stick with magic because of set Rotation.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 6:26PM
#74
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You don't spend $300 on a competitive yugioh deck, you spend $300 on the 10 restricted cards every deck has to run to be good
You have no idea what you are talking about, and should probably not argue a point you can't defend. Yes, the staples in a deck will cost you about 300, but the other 30 cards will put you back a good 1000$ or so, and then the next banned list rolls around and you need a new 30 cards.
Edit:
Are there studies confirming cheatery?
A quick google turns up a story about a pro named Adam Corn who was Disqualified and Banned during top 4 of Nationals a couple years back. My memory of that event reminds me that there was another player in that same top 4 accused, but never proven of cheating. I'll find something more concrete later, but I'm not just making baseless accusations.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 8:22PM
#75
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First off, I want to introduce myself a little bit: I started playing M:tG in junior high but it didn't stick (pre-Ice Age, pre-organized play, and a bit of an age thing is probably what kept me away from it), then tried out Pokemon briefly before Nintendo bought it from WotC, and in college I got into Yugioh and have turned into a highly respected judge in the community. In fact, I'm kind of a big deal in Texas Yugioh events (apparently) so much to the point that the southern PTO has asked me to learn Magic so I can judge that game as well.
YGO vs M:tG
Little-known fact that not many people know: the original concept of the Yugioh CCG is based off of Magic. This is openly admitted in the original Japanese comic book. Now that being said, Yugioh is based off pre-6th edition Magic and both games have evolved into their own thing. Yugioh is to Magic as Soccer is to Baseball or Football; here in America Magic is respected more, but around the rest of the world Yugioh is the dominant CCG (I have done my homework), and that's only based on the fact that Magic was started in America and Yugioh was started in Japan. To say one game is better than the other is elitist since both games have their qualities. Each game has evolved in its own way since the 90s.
Cost
Being able to afford a competitive M:tG deck is not a problem for YGO players. You're talking about people who spend $100-$250 per card for a top-tier deck and whose top deck last format went for around $1000 at a minimum. Although the YGO formats for the past year have been pretty skewed, most competitive decks cost about $400. Set rotation can be annoying, but for the most part we YGO players know this is a very good thing. It's something Konami can't/won't do with YGO because they release their sets based off the anime, so all the cards you need for a certain deck are spread out between 5-9 different sets (i.e.: Elemental Heroes, Monarchs, etc). The banlist in YGO is a decent enough replacement for set rotation.
Learning Curve
I decided to pick Magic back up after over 10 years about 2 weeks ago. I spent one week researching rules changes within the game and about the stack (extremely similar to how a chain works in YGO) and I entered a booster draft last Friday night. I went 2-2 and my only loses were due to minor misplays on my part. I am not considered to be a good YGO player by any stretch of the imagination. I know good YGO players and most of the actual good ones know the basics of M:tG already. It would take any one of them one month to get to a professional level in M:tG, no exaggeration.
Cheating
It happens in YGO more than I'd like to admit. The players who consistently top high-level YGO events are more likely to cheat than others. Some of it is rule-sharking and manipulating the tournament policy, the rest of it is stacking. I don't know what else to say about it since I don't have an expert level of knowledge of M:tG. I will say that the players who do cheat in YGO have a very small chance of winning an actual game of M:tG due to how hard it is to stack a M:tG deck compared to a YGO deck.
Elitism
There are elitists in every game. YGO players say it about MtG players and vice versa: "That game is bad because the players are ". But I've met alot of very cool YGO players who don't buy into the negative hype. When I went to the booster draft last Friday and told some of the ppl there about my background, they were interested in learning about the differences between the two games.
Bottomline is this is a great move for many reasons, but my favorite reason is that this a great way to unify the gaming community. When it comes right down to it, Magic and Yugioh are the top CCGs in the world and only good things can come from the communities coming together. And hopefully the MtG community will learn to reject the YGO a-holes just like the YGO community rejects them. :D
P.S.: Sorry for the long post, but at least you have an analysis from a "professional" YGO official.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 8:27PM
#76
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Sorry for the double-post, but I had to reply to this:
A quick google turns up a story about a pro named Adam Corn who was Disqualified and Banned during top 4 of Nationals a couple years back. My memory of that event reminds me that there was another player in that same top 4 accused, but never proven of cheating. I'll find something more concrete later, but I'm not just making baseless accusations.
Actually, the event you're referring to is not Adam Corn, it was Emon (I can't ever remember how to spell his last name). The events with Adam Corn happened at a Shonen Jump Championship top 8 where he was accused but nothing was ever proven, partly because the judge who accused him was also accused for being biased against Corn.
Yeah, it's like I said in my previous post: cheating happens more than I'd like to admit.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2009 - 9:36PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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I'm a former Yu-Gi-Oh! player, so I figure I'll give my  on YGO and Magic, and how I think the players will be able to adapt. I started playing YGO when I was about 6, then picked up Magic when I was 9 or so. I dropped YGO when I was about 12 because it was to simple for me. The biggest problems I had with Yu-Gi-Oh! are also the things that I think people will have the hardest problems adapting to: Resource and Division systems. ResourcesObviously, this is mana, for Magic. For those of you who don't know the YGO rules (and forgive me because I forget the exact numbers; skip to the next paragraph if you are passably familiar with them), creatures have stars below their name. A creature with so many stars or more requires you to sacrifice one creature, while at the next 'tier' you have to sacrifice two. So, YGO really does have resources, it just works a lot differently and not on most cards. There are other ways of summoning, but that's not to important. Oh yeah, and you can only summon one per turn. ANYWAY, I think that this would probably be the biggest challenge because the resources in YGO aren't as omnipresent, and you're 'resources' are basically your Mogg Fanatics rather than Mountains. Now, I think that getting this isn't incredibly hard. The concept of a Curve is fairly intuitive, and YGO players play with 20 less card in their decks anyway; so, they still have about the same amount of non-pure-resource cards. DivisionThis is very important; competitive decks (5cc and Domain Zoo notwithstanding) don't have access to every card in Magic. Boat Brew can't cast Terror or Cryptic, Fae can't cast Giant Growth. In YGO, however, any deck can play any card. That changes deck building a lot, even if play doesn't change as much. This is really a subset of the Resource system, and I think that it wouldn't present an incredible barrier either. Really, I think that YGO players would have a much more rapid learning curve than some random Joe (or Sue) who has never played a T/CCG (never did understand the difference between the two). However, I also wish to stress that they do still have a learning curve. Anybody who plays YGO should understand the stack, because Chains are basically the Stack with a different name, and so they're advantaged with things like that; however there are also major changes such as going from only 5 creature-unlimited creatures. This changes fundamental assumptions about good play; that will be an additional barrier, but I think overall they have the advantage on a person who hasn't played a card game before.
I went 2-2 and my only loses were due to minor misplays on my part.[/quote]
I won't speak for anyone else, but that doesn't impress me much. The first time I ever played competitively was in a Limited FNM (it was Sealed and not a draft, but I don't think that it makes that much of a difference), and I went 2-2. And this was coming from an extremely casual environment, playing under pre-update rules, and even then we didn't know them that well. We had no concept of priority or the stack; sure, we knew that if you bolted  an attacking creature it wouldn't deal damage, but that was intuitive, not because of actual knowledge. FNM's tend to be not as competitive for 2 reasons: People go to FNM's if they are just learning the game, and people who just aren't competitive go to FNM's (in other words, they play for the social aspect). And even though you'd just learned Magic, you have an advantage over the former group due to having played Yu-Gi-Oh! before that. Not to mention that you used to play Magic; this increases your learning curve even more.
It would take any one of them one month to get to a professional level in M:tG, no exaggeration.
That was my first reaction to this statement. Then I realized that you meant it.
Seriously, have you ever played in a competitive environment? Go to a PTQ, I think that you'll change your mind. This is not me saying that YGO is an inferior game and played by inferior minds; this is me saying that they are two different games, and YGO players will have a learning curve just like everybody else. This is extreme (I'm playing 5cc in Standard right now, which is where this example is coming from), but I've actually lost a game due to my turn-one land drop. I played Vivid Creek over Vivid Meadow (I forget the exact vivid lands, the game was a few months back, but the idea is still the same) on my first turn. Because of that, I ended up having to remove an extra counter from one of my Vivids, and so I couldn't produce enough green to play Cloudthresher (this was before Alara came out, and against Fae), which lost me the game. Magic can become very complex, and you have to think of things from a perspective and experience that is extremely difficult to gain in one month.
Thanks,
Hdier
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4 years ago ::
Mar 16, 2009 - 12:08AM
#78
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2002
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I think its great that we may get more players interested in magic. However;
I don't like the idea that people who have never played magic in their lives are invited to a prestigious event that I am not invited to, despite me playing for 5 years.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 16, 2009 - 12:27AM
#79
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2008
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[...]but around the rest of the world Yugioh is the dominant CCG (I have done my homework)[...]
Somehow, I doubt the validity of that statement (not saying it's invalid at all, mind you) considering Magic has HUGE followings in Europe. Incidentally, Japan is probably the #2 country in the world for Magic followings as well.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 16, 2009 - 9:27AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2005
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I don't like the idea that people who have never played magic in their lives are invited to a prestigious event that I am not invited to, despite me playing for 5 years.
I don't understand this sentiment. It's an empty gesture to the yu-gi-oh players. It's not like they're going to finish in the money. This is strictly to acquire new customer base at no expense to WotC. If they invited people that already played the game they would lose money gained from running qualifier tournaments.
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