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Qilongia wrote:

At what point does Mutavault guarantee drops in WW? EVERY SINGLE LAND you drop should be able to produce . As it is, Mutavault drops as a land AND a Goldmeadow Stalwart , but means you do NOT have two mana second turn to swing as a Stalwart would, and in this case dropping 'Vaults in a less first-turn intensive deck would be more viable. Consider that with a first turn Mutavault , you will not be able to drop a Wizened Cenn to pump it for TWO turns, much less dropping a Knight of Meadowgrain . If you drop a Goldmeadow Stalwart second turn, you can't attack with the 'Vault, or even potentially block with it (as if you would). This is why I think 'Vault is not the best land/creature for this deck, midrange or not.

You seem to be supporting the idea that Vault is not needed for a competitive WWkith. I disagree at any conceivable level.

As for "more viable", under what circumstances does Calciderm 's shroud improve over Oversoul of Dusk 's three forms of protection? In a midrange deck, for example, shroud prevents enchanting with Guides, equipping with Warhammers, and whatever, but since it's going to be around for only 3 turns, don't really bother as it's a waste. One might prefer to invest some mana when the enchantment or equipment will stick, freeing up later turns. This doesn't happen with the Oversoul. You are free to Giant Growth Oversoul for an impressive 8/8 your opponents should be able to do very little about. Consider also that the colors that most impair Kithkin's strategy are bounce, tapping, burn, and targetted kill. Yes, you can't do any of this with shroud, but more than that, you can't do anything for your own creature, and it pops in a decidedly short time. Note that the classic turn-four win for kithkin does NOT involve 'Derm, so it is in no way related to the overall efficiency of the deck, but rather to its survivability in the midgame. I would contend that Oversoul may be better for that role in many cases, although (as I said before), one can use Stonecloaker or other blink effects to "save" it for another couple go's. This is not an issue with the Oversoul, though unfortunately it does cost that 1-mana more.

First off, most builds of WWkith run few individual pump besides Griffin Guide.

Second, you seem to miss that Oversoul falls short against White removals, with I'm sorry to inform you but are indeed a significant part of the metagame. More othen than not, 'derm will win the game, force a wrath, or force unadvantageous blocks before it fades away, and is in short nothing but a cheaper, better, Oversoul.

Ubiquitous? I think you overestimate the prevalence of the card. While it is true Oblivion Ring can take out enchantments, it was being plugged as a 4-of in any deck that could play white since Lorwyn's release, far before Bitterblossom came onto the scene. The #1 reason people were advocating the card was in fact Planeswalkers, especially the far more ubiquitous Garruk Wildspeaker . KWW doesn't NEED O-ring to beat rogues, as it wants to save that card for Stinkdrinker Bandit or Oona's Blackguard , those being far more dangerous to kithkin than Bitterblossom . However, if you're having difficulty dealing with it, I might suggest Ronom Unicorn , which is uniquely suited to both aggro and enchantment removal ... and it costs 1 less mana.

Althoug it's true that every deck with W packed O-Rings after they saw print, I argumented before, and I'm ready to repeat it, that it was a mistake. I said O-Ring should not stay in WWkith, and I changed my mind only because in half of the game I had to play there was a Bitterblossom involved.

IN other words, the only reason to pack something as slow as O-Ring is Bitterblossom. I would never ever pack something for the same cost that handles just creatures.

Pithing Needle does not need to be a first turn play. It can be played later. It can be played in a more "fish" build where it becomes the "silver bullet". We can certainly manage O-rings, so why analyze WHAT cards get O-ringed, and see if we can expand them to what we would also Mana Tithe -- if we ran that as some builds do. Runed Halo also stops Aussiestorm dead. They cannot storm our hellkites against you if you name that card. If you can get the Halo into play instant speed, you can kill your opponent as he is forced to choose valid targets. This is a sideboard card for midrange, possibly for aggro, and most certainly for control.

Oh, you were argumenting it as a SB card. Then yes, it's a possible SB here. Though if I was worried about D-Storm I'd side in Seht's Tiger, probably.

No. I think I've had a fair amount of experience dealing with a lot of damage from red in a single turn. RDW is one of the builds I've had to test against. If it wasn't for red's efficient burn, we wouldn't be using Burrenton Forge-Tender or Soltari Priest , especially since evasive 2-power for two mana is to be had more readily than attached to protection from such a color.

What does Forge-Tender and Priest have to do with this???? We're speaking of Luminesce, a completely different card. Not a single competent RDW player puts more and more sources of damage on the stack at the same time, thus effectively neutering Luminesce's usefulness. The only place where Luminesce is somehow useful is against D-Stom, because that deck MUST put all their damage sources in the stack at once.

Just before, you were arguing that we run O-rings to stop Bitterblossm s, ignoring far more efficient removal (with aggressive option).

What? I need to remind you once again that I advocated for pages to run pratically every possible W removal including Coordinated Barrage before O-Ring. Don't even try making me the point that Ring is not fast enough for WWkith, because I made it first. And I also explained why I changed my mind in this very same post.

Now you would have us waste a spell that only becomes better than a single-critter fog against two colors and only ONE creature -- and be reminded, it has to attack or block or be hit by the Snare -- over something that stops all of that color's damage for the turn?

Of course. Killing the source of damage is better than stopping it, or even it+others, from dealing damage for a turn. Otherwise, Holy Day would be a superior card to Condemn.

And the point that Snare works against B or R creatures only is highly unrelevant. Only a fool could ever think to maindeck Snare, which is of course (and barely) a sideboard option against RDW, Boggart, and Rogues. Snare is essentially a White Terror there, there's why I recommend it if your meta is full of the aforementioned decks.

And however, the fact that Inquisitor's Snare is basically the better card WWkith got in SHA is another way to say that WWkith got screwed in SHA.

Does any one know who will get to do the new thread For WW?

FNM report 3-1... I won't bore with details, but I would like to say a few things.

RUN ICATIAN JAVILENEERS. It hurts faeries, which is evidently the most powerful and prevalent deck, very badly. It can hit any x/1 and is a soldier and a 1-drop.

Use Field Marshal as at least 2-of, he is excellent and will boost almost everything. 2 lord options is excellent, and first strike is invaluable.

Everyone should run a suite of O-rings, mainly for Bitterblossoms... but it can also totally remove any activated or triggered ability problems and in worst-case scenario for the cost, remove a fattie.

P.S. Is there going to be a new thread? who's going to do it and when?

Roxlimn wrote:

Oversoul evades anything with any of the 3 colors in them, which is significant in these days of mixed colors. She's bad in and matchups, but when she's good, she's very, very good.

IMO, put Calciderm MD and put Oversoul SB. Against and matchups you can keep Calciderm and against others you can put in Oversoul, and they'll go out for each other.