I wouldn't yet say the archetype is dead, but it certainly isn't evolving much with the introduction of Shadowmoor. Except in reaction to the evolution of the meta, of course.
From what post-Shadowmoor decks I've seen so far, most of which are clunky, some of which are already quite consistent, one of our bigger problems will be that red decks have gotten access to some nice relatively cheap fatties and lords, as well as some strong removal (Flame Javelin , Murderous Redcap ). I haven't seen many control decks yet.
If we were going to splash a color, I'd nominate red. It'd be great to have some reach after our opponent has turtled up. But it'll probably just be too demanding on our early manabase. WW is a demanding archetype.
In over 2 dozen matches, I've only found Order of Whiteclay useful maybe once or twice. Very disappointing. It allows you to attack with Wizened Cenn without having to worry too much about it dieing, but that's very situational.
Edit: Mirrorweave could be nice, if you have some evasive little guys, wait until they are unblocked and then turn them into fatties. But that's again situational, and we're not running evasive little guys.
Unlike Dimir Cutpurse , this deck gets tribal support that allows it to do a few things, including punch through as a 3/3 on average. It is, unlike all the other kithkin in Shadowmoor, the best aggro-esque critter possible, with one exception: Ballyknock Cohort . And if I was going to use a 3-drop other than the Borderguard, it would be the Cohort and not the Adept. However, The Adept has promise because it makes a life swing as though it had lifelink, which is viable in some strategies. Anyways, I have actually seen some support for the Adept, since it is useful in the deck, even if it's an attempt to smooth out and provide some card support. People don't want that card to hit them, sicne they don't know if you'll draw into the Ajani you need, and gain 4 in the doing, and drop that card THE NEXT TURN. It's a threatening card. I would argue, as I did earlier, that this card wants evasion somehow. It may help it out much better than in a normal kithkin deck.
It makes mana issues. But it means your dead kithkin can all come back. He survives burn. He can be terror 'd, deathmark 'd, or whatever'd, but so can all of your other kithkin. This shouldn't scare you. And one Order can bring back another, to extend your late game into an attrition war. But this deck doesn't want a late-game, and it doesn't like attrition wars. Calciderm is your #1 creature for the late game or mid game, and the Order can't bring it back.
Unlike 'Derm, Oversoul is extremely viable and can only be condemn 'd or aggro'd out of play, and survives to hit not three times, but four, five, six. It isn't a kithkin, but it is so much more and the color requirement is NOT an issue UNLESS you're playing Mutavault s, sicne that takes up a land drop and can't tap for , no matter what (unless you're player the unplayable for aggro Celestial Dawn ). I would seriously consider using Oversaul in WW, but perhaps not KWW.
I am debating removing my O-rings for this card, because it can do one thing O-ring cannot do: move to the next threat. It cannot handle noncreatures, but it is powerful beyond that, and this card is (or should be) the aggro-control pacifism -variant of choice in today's Standard. Arrest was my all-time favorite card during Mirrodin, and this card does a great job of essentially one-upping Arrest with an effectively better card (even though it is not strictly better because of its more dedicated cost).
e) Runed Halo : great utility spell/sort of removal, but doesn't do the most important thing you ask for in this deck: preventing dude X from blocking.
But you really shouldn't care about blocking. You O-ring or isolate any creature you do not need blocking, then push forward. You must worry about the big card that punches back at you. Corrupt is in standard, and Jaws of Stone can almost perfectly approximate a Fireball for 4 or 5 before your game-winning turn, turning your attack into a whimper you now need to recover from. These cards can change a win into death, and if you're any part of that target, the Halo can save you. It, like some card -- a pithing thing, I am sure -- need only be set to a particular stumbling block to secure a win.
f) Inquisitor's Snare : actually a good SB card, as it helps the RDW matchup by taking Ring's place; however, "helping" is not enough when RDW (arguably one of the worst matchups) got such a boost that you will met one in 4/5 of your games. You'd want something that could epically reverse such a game, not something that "helps".
I would argue kithkin WW has enough tools AGAINST red that RDW is not really a poor matchup. However, in this scenario, which is really better, Inquisitor's Snare or Luminesce ? One can remove ONE problem creature, the other can stop all damage of those colors (both colors, even, at once!), irrelevant of being creature based. That means Planeswalkers. In this respect, Isolation is still better at that slot, especially against black or red. If you'd want, Snare would be Isolations 5-X.
I am surprised I have not heard much more about the Thistledown Liege , though obviously I think the Wilt-Leaf Liege is better as a 4/4 pseudo-Dodecapod . Both will actually support your main color for 4 mana. It's essentially the same thing as an Ajani when it drops, except without the vigilance attached, and how the pump sticks around after the card leaves. They can also both come down on your opponents' turns, though one only if your opponent MAKES you pitch it, it does give kithkin a tool versus black decks, something it actually doesn't have. There are no pro:black kithkin, and now, we can only hope that a good, aggro-esque, efficient kithkin with some anti-black can be given us in Eventide.
But the Lieges are very good in NKWW, especially since in GWW (green-white weenie), the Liege is the best in that it most certainly offers the most for what you have, and you use this PLUS Ajani. You use pump more in this deck, and thus can also use the Adepts. Your creatures can be saved by the Gargoyle, bounced, blinked, whatever, beneficially, or recurred more easily. I see a strong push towards GW weenie aggro with some good centerpieces, topping out on the Oversoul.
I think that honorable passage is slightly better than Inquisitor's Snare when considering the RDW matchup, aggro seems to benefit more from the extra damage than it does in destroying a creature. If that source is a gargadon it's game winning. Has anyone been using this card to much effect?
Unlike Dimir Cutpurse , this deck gets tribal support that allows it to do a few things, including punch through as a 3/3 on average. It is, unlike all the other kithkin in Shadowmoor, the best aggro-esque critter possible, with one exception: Ballyknock Cohort . And if I was going to use a 3-drop other than the Borderguard, it would be the Cohort and not the Adept. However, The Adept has promise because it makes a life swing as though it had lifelink, which is viable in some strategies. Anyways, I have actually seen some support for the Adept, since it is useful in the deck, even if it's an attempt to smooth out and provide some card support. People don't want that card to hit them, sicne they don't know if you'll draw into the Ajani you need, and gain 4 in the doing, and drop that card THE NEXT TURN. It's a threatening card. I would argue, as I did earlier, that this card wants evasion somehow. It may help it out much better than in a normal kithkin deck.
Yes, so what's the point? We all agree, no evasion no party.
And just to clear things up, Augury is not an Aggro card, but a Tempo card, in a deck that is NOT oriented on Tempo.
It makes mana issues. But it means your dead kithkin can all come back. He survives burn. He can be terror 'd, deathmark 'd, or whatever'd, but so can all of your other kithkin. This shouldn't scare you. And one Order can bring back another, to extend your late game into an attrition war. But this deck doesn't want a late-game, and it doesn't like attrition wars. Calciderm is your #1 creature for the late game or mid game, and the Order can't bring it back.
This deck will incur in attrition wars when it matters to fighting against opposite Aggro decks. The problem is deciding if Order can overshadow what Entity and Ajani already did for the Aggro vs Aggro scenario, and as of now I'm inclined to think no.
Unlike 'Derm, Oversoul is extremely viable and can only be condemn 'd or aggro'd out of play, and survives to hit not three times, but four, five, six. It isn't a kithkin, but it is so much more and the color requirement is NOT an issue UNLESS you're playing Mutavault s, sicne that takes up a land drop and can't tap for , no matter what (unless you're player the unplayable for aggro Celestial Dawn ). I would seriously consider using Oversaul in WW, but perhaps not KWW.
Wait, Oversoul is viable UNLIKE 'derm? And when you yourself mention 'derm as the late-game star in WWkith? I'm confused. It matters not, anyway, everyone may agree that Oversoul is not worth it when it sits at the 5cc spot instead of other curve-toppers (Borderguard, Ajani, 'Derm) WHILE preventing you to pack Mutavault.
I am debating removing my O-rings for this card, because it can do one thing O-ring cannot do: move to the next threat. It cannot handle noncreatures, but it is powerful beyond that, and this card is (or should be) the aggro-control pacifism -variant of choice in today's Standard. Arrest was my all-time favorite card during Mirrodin, and this card does a great job of essentially one-upping Arrest with an effectively better card (even though it is not strictly better because of its more dedicated cost).
The only justifiable -and still debatable- reason to run a 3cc sorcery speed removal was that it can kill the ubiquitous Bitterblossom. Prison Term cannot. I don't see what's even to debate.
But you really shouldn't care about blocking. You O-ring or isolate any creature you do not need blocking, then push forward. You must worry about the big card that punches back at you. Corrupt is in standard, and Jaws of Stone can almost perfectly approximate a Fireball for 4 or 5 before your game-winning turn, turning your attack into a whimper you now need to recover from. These cards can change a win into death, and if you're any part of that target, the Halo can save you. It, like some card -- a pithing thing, I am sure -- need only be set to a particular stumbling block to secure a win.
This is an incorrect way to evaluate a card. Of course Halo is great once it's in play, the problem is what happens before that. Which means, what card you would be drawing if it wasn't Halo. Which, again, is essentially the question: what do you cut for Halo? And it turns out that all the options are better.
I would argue kithkin WW has enough tools AGAINST red that RDW is not really a poor matchup. However, in this scenario, which is really better, Inquisitor's Snare or Luminesce ? One can remove ONE problem creature, the other can stop all damage of those colors (both colors, even, at once!), irrelevant of being creature based. That means Planeswalkers. In this respect, Isolation is still better at that slot, especially against black or red. If you'd want, Snare would be Isolations 5-X.
Are you joking?
How many red sources you think will be throwed at you at the same time? WHenever you play Luminesce, it will still be too early (you stop the critters, but they save the burn for the next turn) or too late (you stop the burn, but you took damage from critters already). Snare, on the other hand, KILLS a creature, once and for all; it's basically a Condemn without the lifegain drawback. It's not a great card, but it's lightyears superior to Luminesce in this spot.
I am surprised I have not heard much more about the Thistledown Liege , though obviously I think the Wilt-Leaf Liege is better as a 4/4 pseudo-Dodecapod . Both will actually support your main color for 4 mana. It's essentially the same thing as an Ajani when it drops, except without the vigilance attached, and how the pump sticks around after the card leaves. They can also both come down on your opponents' turns, though one only if your opponent MAKES you pitch it, it does give kithkin a tool versus black decks, something it actually doesn't have. There are no pro:black kithkin, and now, we can only hope that a good, aggro-esque, efficient kithkin with some anti-black can be given us in Eventide.
But the Lieges are very good in NKWW, especially since in GWW (green-white weenie), the Liege is the best in that it most certainly offers the most for what you have, and you use this PLUS Ajani. You use pump more in this deck, and thus can also use the Adepts. Your creatures can be saved by the Gargoyle, bounced, blinked, whatever, beneficially, or recurred more easily. I see a strong push towards GW weenie aggro with some good centerpieces, topping out on the Oversoul.
The lieges screw up with your curve, and there's not much to add to this.
I think this deck is dead until Eventide. It was good because it defeated a portion of the top decks (Lark-Blink and UB Fae) but if, as I think will happen, RDW becomes the top deck, there won't be enough reason to play this. I don't have any joy in saying it, because I loved playing WWkith, but that's how I feel.
About the new cards, sorry but all of them are useless.
This has been my concern since I saw the spoilers for shadowmoor. We have great SB options, Is that enough?
Yes, so what's the point? We all agree, no evasion no party.
I know it's too late to stop some confusion, but I was disagreeing very little; rather, I was expanding on the discussion, and increasing the conversationary details about the cards themselves in relation to WW.
And just to clear things up, Augury is not an Aggro card, but a Tempo card, in a deck that is NOT oriented on Tempo.
Aside from Ballyknock Cohort , there are NO other impressively aggro-oriented kithkin that fit into the WW build. There are some attempts at the flying kithkin build, and some funkier cards, including kithkin with flash (of which Zealous Guardian is the best even though I like lords on the whole), but of these the only ones to consider are the Cohort and the Adept. The lifelink-esque ability of the Adept desires it to commit to combat, and while the body to cost is poor, the color suggests it wants you to go "fish" to work it in. This is a different style deck. I was not considering the card for THIS WW forum, but a kithkin weenie system, a even.
This deck will incur in attrition wars when it matters to fighting against opposite Aggro decks. The problem is deciding if Order can overshadow what Entity and Ajani already did for the Aggro vs Aggro scenario, and as of now I'm inclined to think no.
And as I am inclined to agree.
Wait, Oversoul is viable UNLIKE 'derm? And when you yourself mention 'derm as the late-game star in WWkith? I'm confused. It matters not, anyway, everyone may agree that Oversoul is not worth it when it sits at the 5cc spot instead of other curve-toppers (Borderguard, Ajani, 'Derm) WHILE preventing you to pack Mutavault.
At what point does Mutavault guarantee drops in WW? EVERY SINGLE LAND you drop should be able to produce . As it is, Mutavault drops as a land AND a Goldmeadow Stalwart , but means you do NOT have two mana second turn to swing as a Stalwart would, and in this case dropping 'Vaults in a less first-turn intensive deck would be more viable. Consider that with a first turn Mutavault , you will not be able to drop a Wizened Cenn to pump it for TWO turns, much less dropping a Knight of Meadowgrain . If you drop a Goldmeadow Stalwart second turn, you can't attack with the 'Vault, or even potentially block with it (as if you would). This is why I think 'Vault is not the best land/creature for this deck, midrange or not.
As for "more viable", under what circumstances does Calciderm 's shroud improve over Oversoul of Dusk 's three forms of protection? In a midrange deck, for example, shroud prevents enchanting with Guides, equipping with Warhammers, and whatever, but since it's going to be around for only 3 turns, don't really bother as it's a waste. One might prefer to invest some mana when the enchantment or equipment will stick, freeing up later turns. This doesn't happen with the Oversoul. You are free to Giant Growth Oversoul for an impressive 8/8 your opponents should be able to do very little about. Consider also that the colors that most impair Kithkin's strategy are bounce, tapping, burn, and targetted kill. Yes, you can't do any of this with shroud, but more than that, you can't do anything for your own creature, and it pops in a decidedly short time. Note that the classic turn-four win for kithkin does NOT involve 'Derm, so it is in no way related to the overall efficiency of the deck, but rather to its survivability in the midgame. I would contend that Oversoul may be better for that role in many cases, although (as I said before), one can use Stonecloaker or other blink effects to "save" it for another couple go's. This is not an issue with the Oversoul, though unfortunately it does cost that 1-mana more.
Will I use it? Not in kithkin WW, because I need to keep my curve low. It's stressful enough going to FOUR mana, much less three, simply because there aren't enough consistent 2- to 3-drops to round out a faster deck without 'Derms. In midrange, however, there is room for 4- and even 5-drops, and the Oversoul works very well in NKWW.
The only justifiable -and still debatable- reason to run a 3cc sorcery speed removal was that it can kill the ubiquitous Bitterblossom. Prison Term cannot. I don't see what's even to debate.
Ubiquitous? I think you overestimate the prevalence of the card. While it is true Oblivion Ring can take out enchantments, it was being plugged as a 4-of in any deck that could play white since Lorwyn's release, far before Bitterblossom came onto the scene. The #1 reason people were advocating the card was in fact Planeswalkers, especially the far more ubiquitous Garruk Wildspeaker . KWW doesn't NEED O-ring to beat rogues, as it wants to save that card for Stinkdrinker Bandit or Oona's Blackguard , those being far more dangerous to kithkin than Bitterblossom . However, if you're having difficulty dealing with it, I might suggest Ronom Unicorn , which is uniquely suited to both aggro and enchantment removal ... and it costs 1 less mana.
This is an incorrect way to evaluate a card. Of course Halo is great once it's in play, the problem is what happens before that. Which means, what card you would be drawing if it wasn't Halo. Which, again, is essentially the question: what do you cut for Halo? And it turns out that all the options are better.
Pithing Needle does not need to be a first turn play. It can be played later. It can be played in a more "fish" build where it becomes the "silver bullet". We can certainly manage O-rings, so why analyze WHAT cards get O-ringed, and see if we can expand them to what we would also Mana Tithe -- if we ran that as some builds do. Runed Halo also stops Aussiestorm dead. They cannot storm our hellkites against you if you name that card. If you can get the Halo into play instant speed, you can kill your opponent as he is forced to choose valid targets. This is a sideboard card for midrange, possibly for aggro, and most certainly for control.
Are you joking? -- How many red sources you think will be throwed at you at the same time? WHenever you play Luminesce, it will still be too early (you stop the critters, but they save the burn for the next turn) or too late (you stop the burn, but you took damage from critters already). Snare, on the other hand, KILLS a creature, once and for all; it's basically a Condemn without the lifegain drawback. It's not a great card, but it's lightyears superior to Luminesce in this spot.
No. I think I've had a fair amount of experience dealing with a lot of damage from red in a single turn. RDW is one of the builds I've had to test against. If it wasn't for red's efficient burn, we wouldn't be using Burrenton Forge-Tender or Soltari Priest , especially since evasive 2-power for two mana is to be had more readily than attached to protection from such a color.
Just before, you were arguing that we run O-rings to stop Bitterblossm s, ignoring far more efficient removal (with aggressive option). Now you would have us waste a spell that only becomes better than a single-critter fog against two colors and only ONE creature -- and be reminded, it has to attack or block or be hit by the Snare -- over something that stops all of that color's damage for the turn? Luminesce can save your team from a fatal Chandra Nalaar , Greater Gargadon shennanigans, Aussiestorm going off, etc.; in other words, it stops THEM from winning. I personally wouldn't use either; it's been a long time since I've tested WW versus a storm deck. I was evaluating cards listed.
The lieges screw up with your curve, and there's not much to add to this.
This has been my concern since I saw the spoilers for shadowmoor. We have great SB options, Is that enough?
Unlike some, my opinion is optimistic, and I feel that the sideboard variation is strong, and our greatest consideration is what we have to deal with and how we build our deck. Shadowmoor means new emergent archetypes, including a promising Gruul-build that will depart from RDW+Goyf by being more inclusive of green cards. Also, the deck is alive and kicking, as attested to by the post count, so "dead" really is relative.
