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Bookworm:

Hoofprints is a win condition only. Mesa is a win condition and a control element. In a control deck, Mesa is the clearly superior choice. If you want to run Hoofprints, it has to be in a deck that somehow revolves around it. I imagine a Draw-Go kind of a deck with multiple draw accelerators can use it to good effect.

I am very intrigued by the Sunken Hope idea...What is the general consensus? Worth a shot?

I'm still running mostly Anti-Aggro. What do you think the ratio of Aggro to Control decks will be?

What do you think the best win-cons will be for us?

jake123 wrote:

I am very intrigued by the Sunken Hope idea...What is the general consensus? Worth a shot?

I'm still running mostly Anti-Aggro. What do you think the ratio of Aggro to Control decks will be?

What do you think the best win-cons will be for us?

In my experience, Sunken Hope is amazing vs aggro, as it forces the opponent to overextend to even deal damage, leaving things open for a crippling Wrath. Vs control, it should be rather effective vs. non-Mesa decks, and should theoretically kill Rule of One unless they run Mesa. I'm currently experimenting with Forced Fruition /Jace as wincons, and am finding that Fruition with counter backup=gg. However, you will have to run wincons that can withstand being bounced every turn.

With regards to the metagame, I predict predominantly aggro, with Goyf Deck Wins, Kithkin Beats, and Faerie Stompy as the ones to watch out for. U/B control will probably not fare as well against the Gaddock Teeg - heavy format, and will just switch to Faeries. As such, the control decks that will succeed will most likely be those devoted to creature hate, such as Hakkon Inversion and Tarmo-Rack control. Creatureless control is my metagame choice, as it can withstand the relentless assault of aggro and sidestep the vast amount of anti-creature control. Thoughseize makes Tarmo-Rack a genuine threat, and is my main worry.

jake123 wrote:

I am very intrigued by the Sunken Hope idea...What is the general consensus? Worth a shot?

I have been solo testing a list (about 20 games, probably) against the Kithkin aggro deck that won the magicleague.com Masters tournament. I've tried a few variations, and it doesn't work very well yet.

"Work in Progress:" Show

I'm still running mostly Anti-Aggro. What do you think the ratio of Aggro to Control decks will be?

I can't venture a guess. Pickles seems to be doing well in some online tournaments.

What do you think the best win-cons will be for us?

The best win-cons, IMO, are ones that can be used on defense earlier in the game. Especially in an aggro-dominated meta, the how you finish the game isn't as important as how you avoid getting killed so you can finish the game.

I am building a deck of my own. Any help or opinions are nice to hear.

U/W Control

8 x +[island]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]island island &type=card">
7 x +[plains]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]plains plains &type=card">
4 x +[nimbus]+[maze]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]nimbus maze nimbus maze &type=card">
2 x +[adarkar]+[wastes]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]adarkar wastes adarkar wastes &type=card">
1 x +[urza]+[s]+[factory]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]urza's factory urza's factory &type=card">
2 x +[calciform]+[pools]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]calciform pools calciform pools &type=card">

4 x +[condemn]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]condemn condemn &type=card">
4 x +[oblivion]+[ring]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]oblivion ring oblivion ring &type=card">
4 x +[wrath]+[of]+[god]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]wrath of god wrath of god &type=card">

4 x +[think]+[twice]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]think twice think twice &type=card">

3 x +[remove]+[soul]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]remove soul remove soul &type=card">
4 x +[rune]+[snag]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]rune snag rune snag &type=card">
4 x +[cancel]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]cancel cancel &type=card">
4 x +[dismal]+[failure]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]dismal failure dismal failure &type=card">

2 x +[aeon]+[chronicler]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]aeon chronicler aeon chronicler &type=card">
2 x +[draining]+[whelk]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]draining whelk draining whelk &type=card">
1 x +[akroma,]+[angel]+[of]+[wrath]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]akroma, angel of wrath akroma, angel of wrath &type=card">

SB:
2 x +[pull]+[from]+[eternity]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]pull from eternity pull from eternity &type=card">
2 x +[return]+[to]+[dust]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]return to dust return to dust &type=card">
2 x +[imperial]+[mask]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]imperial mask imperial mask &type=card">
2 x +[teferi,]+[mage]+[of]+[zhalfir]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]teferi, mage of zhalfir teferi, mage of zhalfir &type=card">
3 x +[dodecapod]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]dodecapod dodecapod &type=card">
2 x +[tormod]+[s]+[crypt]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]tormod's crypt tormod's crypt &type=card">
2 x +[rule]+[of]+[law]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]rule of law rule of law &type=card">


I want to put in something like sacred mesa or mobilization , but I'm not sure what I should take out.

Also, I am having a little trouble with my land base. I seem to have land troubles regularly. I was thinking of taking out the calciform pools or something like it. Also, I have no idea what the meta is like in my area, so my SB is (in my opinion) a very generic one.

Thanks for any help.

smurf007 wrote:

I am building a deck of my own. Any help or opinions are nice to hear.

I want to put in something like sacred mesa or mobilization , but I'm not sure what I should take out.

Also, I am having a little trouble with my land base. I seem to have land troubles regularly. I was thinking of taking out the calciform pools or something like it. Also, I have no idea what the meta is like in my area, so my SB is (in my opinion) a very generic one.

Thanks for any help.

I find Calciform Pools pretty indispensible. I'm not sure the singleton factory is really worthwhile, though. For the land base, why don't you run 4x Adarkar Wastes , replacing a couple Mazes? I'd run one less Maze, in any case.

Otherwise, looks respectable. Main other comment is that Dismal Failure isn't so good against aggro - they empty their hands pretty quickly without help from you, so it's often an overcosted Cancel . I'd definitely run Cryptic Command over it in the 4 CMC slot - with Command, you will always get what you're paying for... Maybe as a 3-of, and +1 Remove Soul . Faerie Trickery is another option that I think is better on the whole.

I'm not sure the Return to Dust are really needed with Oblivion Ring .

Story Circle and Imperial Mask are a bit redundant. Maybe replace the Circle with Teferi's Moat , which complements Mask better, or put some Delay in the board to replace some Remove Soul against control.

UW Draw-Go


Land (25 x )
4 x +[Nimbus]+[Maze]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Nimbus Maze Nimbus Maze &type=card">
4 x +[Adarkar]+[Wastes]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Adarkar Wastes Adarkar Wastes &type=card">
2 x +[Calciform]+[Pools]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Calciform Pools Calciform Pools &type=card">
2 x +[Urza]+[s]+[Factory]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Urza's Factory Urza's Factory &type=card">
2 x +[Faerie]+[Conclave]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Faerie Conclave Faerie Conclave &type=card">
5 x +[Island]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Island Island &type=card">
5 x +[Plains]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Plains Plains &type=card">
1 x +[Boreal]+[Shelf]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Boreal Shelf Boreal Shelf &type=card">

Creatures (5 x )
1 x +[Akroma]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Akroma Akroma &type=card">
2 x +[Aeon]+[Chronicler]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Aeon Chronicler Aeon Chronicler &type=card">
2 x +[Draining]+[Whelk]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Draining Whelk Draining Whelk &type=card">

Other (30 x )
4 x +[Wrath]+[of]+[God]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Wrath of God Wrath of God &type=card">
4 x +[Oblivion]+[Ring]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Oblivion Ring Oblivion Ring &type=card">
4 x +[Condemn]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Condemn Condemn &type=card">
4 x +[Rune]+[Snag]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Rune Snag Rune Snag &type=card">
3 x +[Cryptic]+[Command]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Cryptic Command Cryptic Command &type=card">
4 x +[Think]+[Twice]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Think Twice Think Twice &type=card">
3 x +[Rule]+[of]+[Law]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Rule of Law Rule of Law &type=card">
2 x +[Spell]+[Burst]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Spell Burst Spell Burst &type=card">
1 x +[Mobilization]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Mobilization Mobilization &type=card">
1 x +[Sacred]+[Mesa]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]Sacred Mesa Sacred Mesa &type=card">


BookWorm, what are your thoughts on my list?

ownage wrote:

BookWorm, what are your thoughts on my list?

Just because I post a lot doesn't mean I know anything...

I generally like it, although I don't like running Rune Snag or Condemn with Rule of Law . Aeon Chronicler can also present problems against a deck with Teferi. Unfortunately, alternatives to any of these have other problems. I might try Remove Soul or Cancel over the Rune Snag , Crib Swap over Condemn and/or Careful Consideration over Aeon Chronicler , and see how they do. Those are probably the best RoL-friendly alternatives.

I think you may need more basics for 4x Nimbus Maze to work.

I am kind of paranoid about running cards that don't help in the early game, so I don't run Sacred Mesa or Mobilization in my RoL build. Many people do though. Certainly they are nice to have, if you survive to use them. Otherwise there are some other good defensive cards as alternatives that you could run as 2-ofs: Evacuation , Porphyry Nodes , Teferi's Moat . I think Story Circle is a little too slow to stop creature swarms.

I would replace Akroma, Angel of Wrath with another answer (maybe a 3rd Spell Burst ), for the same reason.

Here is my Current List. Of course, please help me make it better!!!

I'm running a heavy anti-aggro maindeck, with some better cards for the control-on-control matchup...

4 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes
3 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urza's Factory
6 Island
7 Plains

2 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Aeon Chronicler
4 Martyr of Sands

4 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Condemn
4 Rune Snag
4 Cancel
4 Foresee
2 Prophyry Nodes
2 Sacred Mesa

SIDEBOARD
3 Delay
3 Disenchant
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Draining Whelk
2 Story Circle
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Oblivion Ring


Thoughts???

Yeah, I know i run Martyr, but since i run counters and Martyr comes out against control, i don't count it as a Proc/Martyr Deck

Well since I'm not going to states due to my friend suddenly deciding that he wanted his bachelor party the same day, heres the final decklist that I was going to play and some match-up analysis.

U/W Draw Go

2 x *Flagstones of Trokair
4 x *Adarkar Wastes
2 x *Tolaria West
1 x *Terramorphic Expanse
2 x *Calciform Pools
2 x *Wandervine Hub
1 x *Academy Ruins
4 x *Island
5 x *Plains
1 x *Vivid Meadow
1 x *Vivid Creek

3 x *Razormane Masticore
4 x *Martyr of Sands

3 x *Jace Belern

4 x *Wrath of God
4 x *Crib Swap
4 x *Oblivion Ring
4 x *Faerie Trickery
4 x *Rune Snag
3 x *Hoofprints of the Stag
2 x *Teferi's Moat

SB
3 x *Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 x *Aura of Silence
3 x *Story Circle
4 x *Remove Soul
1 x *Tormod's Crypt


The deck obviously is tuned for the massive number of Aggro decks that tend to show up to states every year and part of the reason why we chose this particular build is because of it's ability to win games against the random aggro decks that congregate around states.

Some card Choices

Razormane Masticore Generally a Turn 4 Wrath into a turn 5 Razormane will win you games against aggro decks, where it tends to dominate the board and end games quickly, against control it tends to be a 4 turn clock and can be recurred with Academy Ruins.

Martyr of Sands Obviously also a Meta-game call, with the large quantity of white cards, one go with Martyr will generally net you 6-9 life and puts you in a much better position to win.

Jace Belern Has been absolutely the better than Aeon Chronicler in this deck, with 4 each of Wrath, Swap, and O-Ring, along with Razormane and Moat backup, it is extremely difficult for opponents to remove through combat.

Hoofprints of the Stag Better than Mesa in all testing, along with Jace, a turn 2 Hoofprints will win games by itself against other control decks. In this deck a turn one Martyr into a Turn 2 Hoofprint against aggro is something thats won me alot of matches in testing, the Martyr will generally buy enough time for the Hoofprints to pump out a token or two.

Faerie Trickery With Teachings, Blink, Haakon, and Call all in the format, this will be better than Cancel the vast majority of the time.

Match-Ups

Haakon Inverted(Control) - 10/11 Matches won Almost auto-pilot mode, a 2nd turn Hoofprint sets up a late game threat that they cannot remove easily, also Razormane Masticore conveniently kills off Haakon and Shadowmage for those decks splashing blue. Furthermore all removal in the deck removes cards from the game. Do note that Faerie Trickery cannot counter Nameless Inversion .

Haakon Inverted(Aggro) - 8/9 Matches won Slightly Harder, but against the B/R version, a Martyr of Sands into Teferi's Moat generally means game-over. Careful on Morphed Gathan Raiders and save removal for Oona's Prowler.

Teachings - 5/10 Matches - Almost a coin flip situation, generally a turn 2 hoofprint will win the game, through generating large quantities of virtual card advantage and due to the glacial speed of teachings, almost every single token has to be dealt with. Otherwise the game degenerates into who can stick a Jace on the board first. Also having hoofprints out is strong incentive for Teachings to not put loyalty counters on Jace.

Goyf-Rack - 2/10 Matches - Hard, really hard, Goyf kills Jace quickly, Garruk is a pain in the arse and a curve of Thoughtseize into Goyf, into Stupor can be almost impossible to recover from. Save Swaps for Goyf, Rings for Garruk, and try to stick an early Razormane out into play.

Mono-Black Rack - 3/7 Matches - Again, some times the Thoughtseize into Auger into Stupor can totally destroy the deck's ability to fight back, resolve and protect Jace at pretty much all costs.

U/x Pickles - 7/12 Matches - Pretty even, generally using Trickery to take out blink stops the only real hard cards in the match up. This is one Match-Up where Hoofprints are a liability with the sheer amount of bounce pickles usually packs. The trick is to never tap out and to kill morphs as soon as possible.

U/W/x Blink - 6/9 Matches - Again use Trickery to take out Blinks will stop most of the deck from functioning, generally with the high amounts of removal being thrown around, using Jace as a way to Mill opponents is a great way to win.

AngelFire - 4/6 Matches - Not too hard, Game 2 siding in Aura of Silences will slow the deck down considerably. Again, most versions lack the ability to combat Turn 2 Hoofprints in the main, or even in the side.

WW - 4/4 Matches - Unless they curve out one through 4 and catch you without Wrath in hand, you can probably sleepwalk through this matchup.

RDW - 3/4 Matches - Save Martyrs for when they'll net you 9+ life, otherwise play it like any other aggro match up. Resolving a Teferi's Moat will go a long way to winning the match,

Thats most of the Matches I've tested with the deck, I'll post some match records and observations on more roguish decks later.

I think you're over-optimistic about the aggro (e.g. WW) match-up.

Kithkin decks easily swing for > 10/turn, so Martyr of Sands means you lose at -3 life instead of -12.

The chance of drawing Wrath of God AND being able to play it Turn 4 is considerably less than 50%.

evilbattyness wrote:

Razormane Masticore Generally a Turn 4 Wrath into a turn 5 Razormane will win you games against aggro decks, where it tends to dominate the board and end games quickly, against control it tends to be a 4 turn clock and can be recurred with Academy Ruins.

Even against red-based aggro packing Threaten, Gargadons and Nantuko Husks?

evilbattyness wrote:

Hoofprints of the Stag Better than Mesa in all testing, along with Jace, a turn 2 Hoofprints will win games by itself against other control decks. In this deck a turn one Martyr into a Turn 2 Hoofprint against aggro is something thats won me alot of matches in testing, the Martyr will generally buy enough time for the Hoofprints to pump out a token or two.

I assume all of the testing was done pre-SB because after SB every deck in the format gets a way to deal with Hoofprint, Jace and Mesa (Pithing Needle) and that must be taken into account.
Needle will be in most SB because Mesa (and not Hoofprints because it doesn't clog up the board as Mesa does) gives a lot of trouble to a whole lot of decks like Teachings, Blink, BG Rock, MonoB, WW, GW Aggro, MGA so they'll be prepared for it.

evilbattyness wrote:

Haakon Inverted(Control)
Haakon Inverted(Aggro)

Are those even decks?

evilbattyness wrote:

Teachings - 5/10 Matches - Almost a coin flip situation, generally a turn 2 hoofprint will win the game, through generating large quantities of virtual card advantage and due to the glacial speed of teachings, almost every single token has to be dealt with. Otherwise the game degenerates into who can stick a Jace on the board first. Also having hoofprints out is strong incentive for Teachings to not put loyalty counters on Jace.

A turn 2 hoofprint will win the game IF they don't pack Needles, IF they can't counter/bounce it (extremely unlikely), IF they're not splashing either green or white for Naturalize/Grip/Disenchant/Return to Dust, IF they don't win faster (Goyf, Tombstalker, Triskelavus and Dread are extremely fast clocks)...
I'd like to see which kind of build you played against that can't deal with a 4/4 every 3-4 turns
Plus, I'm surprised you can win even a single match against a properly built Teachings deck given that you have no sources of card draw except for Jace.

evilbattyness wrote:

Goyf-Rack
Mono-Black Rack

These decks usually slaughters control decks even if they pack lots of card draw (Foresee, Teachings, Careful, Jace).
You're not packing anything like that, so I'm surprised you managed to win even those few games.

evilbattyness wrote:

U/W/x Blink - 6/9 Matches - Again use Trickery to take out Blinks will stop most of the deck from functioning, generally with the high amounts of removal being thrown around, using Jace as a way to Mill opponents is a great way to win.

Taking out a single Blink will stop the deck from functioning?!
I won many games with Blink being EXTIRPATED because of the silly amount of tempo and CA you can gain with cards like Mulldrifter, Riftwing Cloudskate and Venser that is unbelievable that a Trickery on a Blink won you games.

evilbattyness wrote:

AngelFire - 4/6 Matches - Not too hard, Game 2 siding in Aura of Silences will slow the deck down considerably. Again, most versions lack the ability to combat Turn 2 Hoofprints in the main, or even in the side.

Given that the only version of the deck that's currently semi-viable is the version with Venser, Blink, Riftwing Cloudskates and the like, I'd like to see how why can't they deal with an enchantment via bounce...

evilbattyness wrote:

WW - 4/4 Matches - Unless they curve out one through 4 and catch you without Wrath in hand, you can probably sleepwalk through this matchup.

Again, I'd like to see the list you tested against, because most proper list can kill you by turn 4-5, usually with Mana Tithe backup, so Wrathing on turn 4 isn't very likely, either.

Basically, every word Jiaozy said.

Plus, as I'm tired of explaining, the considerable advantage of Hoofprint is that you place it early game, wrath against aggro and then swing in before they stabilize again. In other words it helps you fasten your games.

Against Coalition Teachings, games tend to last painfully long, and besides the fact that they have bounce (far worse on Hoofprint than it is on Mesa) I should say that almost EVERY other win condition in the format pales to Mesa when the game lasts long. Saying that Hoofprint > Mesa in attrition wars is pure delirium.

BookWorm wrote:

I think you're over-optimistic about the aggro (e.g. WW) match-up.

Kithkin decks easily swing for > 10/turn, so Martyr of Sands means you lose at -3 life instead of -12.

The chance of drawing Wrath of God AND being able to play it Turn 4 is considerably less than 50%.

Right which is why Martyr of Sands into Teferi's Moat will also win games, the entire point is that Martyr eats an attack from Calciderm as well as gaining you 6-9 life. Furthermore not much from WW gets through a Hard-Cast Razormane Masticore is also quite slim. The entire point is that much of the threats this deck runs are hard for WW to deal with, Razormane's eat almost every single creature they cast and is impossible for them to block and Moats essentially stop every creature they cast.

evilbattyness wrote:

Furthermore not much from WW gets through a Hard-Cast Razormane Masticore is also quite slim.

Well, if the list is tuned properly there will be some number of Temporal Isolation/Pacifism/Oblivion Ring along with a set of Griffin Guide and Serra Avenger so there's a whole lot of critters that can attack into a Razorcore and as many ways to render her armless.

evilbattyness wrote:

The entire point is that much of the threats this deck runs are hard for WW to deal with, Razormane's eat almost every single creature they cast and is impossible for them to block and Moats essentially stop every creature they cast.

Again, Serra Avenger and Griffin Guide will usually make their creature huge and flying so that your Moat and Razorcore won't care much about them, or even worse, when you tap down/out for a Moat/Razorcore have them lay a couple of Griffin Guide on previously existing dude and swing at you, forcing you to Wrath but still leaving 2 threats on the board...

WW and GW need to be dealt with via Condemn, WoG and Command because the biggest threat they pose for control decks are evasive creatures and Griffin Guide.

Condemn and Command solve the "Griffin Guide" part, the Evasiveness is solved via WoG to clean the board and Sacred Mesa to have blockers/creatures that are as evasive as theirs.

Jiaozy wrote:

Even against red-based aggro packing Threaten, Gargadons and Nantuko Husks?I assume all of the testing was done pre-SB because after SB every deck in the format gets a way to deal with Hoofprint, Jace and Mesa (Pithing Needle) and that must be taken into account.
Needle will be in most SB because Mesa (and not Hoofprints because it doesn't clog up the board as Mesa does) gives a lot of trouble to a whole lot of decks like Teachings, Blink, BG Rock, MonoB, WW, GW Aggro, MGA so they'll be prepared for it.Are those even decks?A turn 2 hoofprint will win the game IF they don't pack Needles, IF they can't counter/bounce it (extremely unlikely), IF they're not splashing either green or white for Naturalize/Grip/Disenchant/Return to Dust, IF they don't win faster (Goyf, Tombstalker, Triskelavus and Dread are extremely fast clocks)...
I'd like to see which kind of build you played against that can't deal with a 4/4 every 3-4 turns
Plus, I'm surprised you can win even a single match against a properly built Teachings deck given that you have no sources of card draw except for Jace.These decks usually slaughters control decks even if they pack lots of card draw (Foresee, Teachings, Careful, Jace).
You're not packing anything like that, so I'm surprised you managed to win even those few games.Taking out a single Blink will stop the deck from functioning?!
I won many games with Blink being EXTIRPATED because of the silly amount of tempo and CA you can gain with cards like Mulldrifter, Riftwing Cloudskate and Venser that is unbelievable that a Trickery on a Blink won you games.Given that the only version of the deck that's currently semi-viable is the version with Venser, Blink, Riftwing Cloudskates and the like, I'd like to see how why can't they deal with an enchantment via bounce...Again, I'd like to see the list you tested against, because most proper list can kill you by turn 4-5, usually with Mana Tithe backup, so Wrathing on turn 4 isn't very likely, either.

So your entire point is that OMG I won't draw anything that I need and they'll automatically pack every card thats bad for me? Obviously

First off, each match was done as a MATCH, 1 pre-board 2 post-board.

Against Red-Based Control with Threaten, heres a thought, Don't run out Razormanes on turn 5 if you think they have Threaten, play it with counter back up. And even with Threaten, Martyr will gladly eat an attack from a Razormane, and even if they manage to kill it, you have 2 Tolaria Wests to fetch an Academy Ruins to start recurring the Razormane.

Needles - You have 4 ways in main and 4 ways in the board to stop 4 needles, the chances of them drawing more needles than you have answers for are very slim.

Haakon-Inverted - Yes they are decks, yes they suck, yes people will play them at states because it's A. Cheap and B. Easy to Play.

Teachings - What sort of weird ass teachings are you playing against? Oh right again, the one that automatically draws answers to everything you play? Even the worst teachings match up only runs 2-3 Vensers and maybe 1-2 Naturalize in main, at the very most. Again you have 8 Answers to Needles in Board and Main, Furthermore every single bounce spell on Hoofprints is one less on Razormane, every single naturalize on Hoofprint is one less on Razormane, Teferi's Moat, Oblivion Ring, and Aura of Silence and Story Circle. Also last time I check I was running counters in this deck, oh wait I still am.

Goyf Rack/Mono-Black Rack - Again as I said you have 4 O-Rings Main and 4 Aura of Silence in Side against Racks, again, post side Story Circle on Green against Goyf-Rack and on Black against Korlash will win you games. The issue to put enough defense on the board before they rape your hand so that you have enough time to recover.

Trickery on Blink - Yes it's not going to win you alot of games, but trickery on a blink targeting an evoked Mulldrifter sure as hell isn't a bad play. Venser Cloudskate and Mulldrifter are a lot worse when you can't use them three times. Again, if they're so worried about Hoofprints, then it gives you time to play another threat, like say another Hoofprint or Razormane, but hey lets say they draw all that, every single card thats good against me, those would be the matches I lost. But hey obviously thats going to happen every match right?

AngelFire - Again I have no idea what decklist of AngelFire you're using, but even in the version that runs multiple bounce spells, Counters, Remove Soul and the amount of cards they have to bounce off the board makes this not too bad of a match up.

WW - Yeah they can kill you on turn 4-5 IF you don't disrupt them at all, a single martyr for 6 thats chumps something will get you an extra turn, a crib swap or Oblivion Ring will also slow down the deck tremendously. Teferi's Moat single handly stops all but the versions that run 4O-Rings main, then you just counter the O-Ring.

But wait I know what you're going to say: What if they draw every single card thats good against me? Because that's all your arguments boil down to, What if they draw every single card that's good against me and I draw nothing. The deck has solutions for almost everything you've said, either in main or in side, I have testing data backing up everything I've said, and not from so random Online Program where 90% of the people don't know what they're doing, but from real live testing. So either I draw like a god, or you are being presumptuous, personally, the latter rings a lot more true.

Jiaozy wrote:

Well, if the list is tuned properly there will be some number of Temporal Isolation/Pacifism/Oblivion Ring along with a set of Griffin Guide and Serra Avenger so there's a whole lot of critters that can attack into a Razorcore and as many ways to render her armless.Again, Serra Avenger and Griffin Guide will usually make their creature huge and flying so that your Moat and Razorcore won't care much about them, or even worse, when you tap down/out for a Moat/Razorcore have them lay a couple of Griffin Guide on previously existing dude and swing at you, forcing you to Wrath but still leaving 2 threats on the board...

WW and GW need to be dealt with via Condemn, WoG and Command because the biggest threat they pose for control decks are evasive creatures and Griffin Guide.

Condemn and Command solve the "Griffin Guide" part, the Evasiveness is solved via WoG to clean the board and Sacred Mesa to have blockers/creatures that are as evasive as theirs.

Crib Swap is almost always better against Guides than Condemn is, again you're assuming that when they play those spells I'll magically not have either O-Ring, or a Counter in Hand for the isolations and Pacifism, or the Guides. Again, yes if I moat and they guide up, assuming they have 2 dudes on the table and have two griffin guides in hand, it is hard to win, however besides griffin guides, which can be killed off by, Crib Swap, counters, and Oblivion Rings, every single creature in WW folds to Razormane, frankly I'm not too afraid of a 4 of card that I have 16 answers to main and 20 in the board.

Surprised that no one mentioned how Martyr becomes a marginally better Healing Salve in this deck.

Momo wrote:

Surprised that no one mentioned how Martyr becomes a marginally better Healing Salve in this deck.

Last time I check Salve doesn't chump Goyf/Calciderm then gain 6-9.

Momo wrote:

Surprised that no one mentioned how Martyr becomes a marginally better Healing Salve in this deck.

If you look at the first reply, I kind of did.

A lot of people in this and the "Rule of One" thread have the idea that Martyr is going to somehow solve their aggro problems. One-shot life-gain that relies on having the right other cards in your hand doesn't seem that good to me.

That said, the evilbattyness's list doesn't look all that bad to me. The questionable card choices are Razormane Masticore , Martyr of Sands and Hoofprints of the Stag , the Vivid Lands that do nothing particularly useful, and lack of draw other than Jace Beleren . Other than that, he has a fairly strong suite of removal, and Teferi's Moat > Story Circle against decks that have a lot of creatures/tokens, IMO.

I think it's the match-up analysis rather than the list itself that raised peoples' eyebrows...

evilbattyness wrote:

Last time I check Salve doesn't chump Goyf/Calciderm then gain 6-9.

Ok, here's the deal: you cannot count in having 2-3 white cards in hand. This deck is mostly blue, and the reason it doesn't go white is to keep a stable matchup vs control, that white is terrible at dealing with.

Chump-blocking and gaining 6-9 is considered the poorest performance for Martyr of Sands, the ideal being chumping and gaining 12, and the best gaining 21 or more. And in this deck, pulling out the poorest performance seems already reasonably hard.

This means that in your deck, Martyr is doing her worst even in the best scenario.

I'm not going to spend more words on Mesa > Hoofprint in this deck, it's a waste.

I'm doing "testbed" analysis of U/W with some of the new cards. With the new focus being on aggro, I've been testing against stuff like U/G Madness decks from back in the day, thinking it will be unlikely for Lorwyn decks to be more difficult to disrupt (and packing its own cheap countermagic, draw, and MD enchantment destruction).

Basically, I'm using this control core:

4x Mana Tithe
4x Rune Snag
4x Cancel
4x Condemn
4x Wrath
3x Oblivion Ring (possibly a fourth, depending)

And then trying out different win and draw systems. So far, I've been pretty happy with the control core. It is very inexpensive (more than half is 2 mana or less) and is strong against most decks. Tithe so far has been useful against aggro (since they tend to use all their mana per turn for the first 3-4 turns) and so-so against control for the final permission spell in a counter war. Rune Snag is good against aggro, and against control it is generally a hard counter since they run them too. Condemn is great (only bad against Teferi), WoG and the 3 Rings have been golden as well. I'm open to suggestion here, but saying Tithe sucks (which it doesn't), or suggesting Cryptic Command (which is rough on the triple-blue and 4cc) isn't what I'm looking for.

Frankly, right now I'm having trouble with win-cons, mainly because the ones that are amazing vs aggro (white Akroma) suck against control, and vice-versa (Conclave, Take Possession, etc..). My initial thought was 3x Mesa and 2x Crovax. Both dodge creature removal, and I can back them up with permission if needed. This is good, but not enough, I think. So far, I've been getting to turns 8-10 fairly easily against aggro, but having difficulty drawing into what I want. 5 total win-cons is a little light for me. I considered Draining Whelk as well.

Draw was equally tough. Sorcery-speed draw doesn't really appeal to me unless it is REALLY cheap (Ponder or Ancestral Visions). But the instant-speed stuff we have is a little blah (Think Twice, Whispers of the Muse, Careful Consideration). We lost some of the cantrips that made this deck run smoothly (Repeal, Remand, Hussar), so draw is pretty important atm.

One option was to combine draw and win. In that case I would be looking at the possibility of Mulldrifter+Blink or perhaps Aeon Chronicler. The Chronicler seems like an easy include, though I still have to use sorcery time for him (and not permission or instant-speed removal). But I was going to use sorcery speed for a win condition anyway (like Akroma). What makes Mesa so helpful here is that the amount I have to spend on my turn is actually very small, leaving plenty for a Rune Snag+Tithe or a Cancel. Tapping out for a Chronicler (or waiting until I have 8-9 mana) seems tough for me.

Anyway, I really need to use something that will win the game for me once I get it into play. Because of the removal and cheap permission I use, something like RoL+Burst probably won't work (plus, no cantrips). And I don't want something that will just get terrored (Purity).

I know what to do post-board (I have a weird mana base that allows me to side in Quagnoths and Take Possession). But I am a bit leery of just running Mesa+Crovax as my MD win-condition.


Thoughts?

evilbattyness wrote:

- stuff -

The point is that you're viewing and justifying your card choices in the BEST CASE SCENARIO, which is always the wrong you to choose when looking at cards.

If you think at, say, Mesa VS Hoofprints: things have gone awfully wrong and you drew into some answers but that aggro deck is overrunning you with creatures!
WOW!! Mesa to save the day!!
Crap, Hoofprints.

Razorcore
"Great, I cleaned the board, they did nothing and have no answer for it so it goes to town without a problem."
"Crap, I never managed to draw into a WoG and they're now destroying him under a flurry of attackers and can't afford to tap out for her because otherwise they'll just go to town on me."

You CANNOT afford to choose cards that will do better than another ONLY IN SPECIFIC SITUATIONS (Hoofprint is better than Mesa if all the following situations are met, otherwise Mesa is 100% better: you'll draw into 1-2 early game, have the time to play them AND they're not playing answers for it) or in a scenario that either will make you win but the one you chose makes you win more (double Hoofprint against Teachings on turn 2 and 3, they never see Venser, can't counter it, aren't playing bigger creatures and aren't packing any threat so I can happily wait 4 turns to make a lone 4/4 while they dig, fix their hand and so on).

You ALWAYS have to think that something can (and will) go wrong, because mana screw happens, lucksacking happens, getting flooded happens.

So in those situation my points are all true and not presumptuous while yours are based on the "everything is always gone well for me" counter argument without actually supporting them with logic..

I pointed out the many flaws in you deck and what have I got as an answer?

I can deal with this.
You're playing a twisted version of the deck.
That won't happen in every match.
They won't always draw every card that's good against me.
They can't always deal with everything (but neither can you).
I have solutions for everything (but playing solutions for unknown problems, might be a bad move since you still don't know what the problem are).

Everything is based on the perception that you WON'T EVER draw a bad hand, run out of gas, be outplayed or out-CA'd which, 90% of the time, is false for a control deck.

evilbattyness wrote:

Last time I check Salve doesn't chump Goyf/Calciderm then gain 6-9.

Last time I checked, Salve always gained 3 life...Martyr, not so much. Apparently, you aren't grasping the concept of a deck which is centered around blue.

PS--If the best justification for a card is that it blocks once, and gains a couple life points once, your justification for using the card is clearly terrible.

Are people running Coldsteel Hearts in their builds at all? I've been running 4 with 24 land and I'm not sure if I'd rather cut them and play another land or two, then two other cards, or if they're super good enough to leave them. It's happened now and then where I was lacking a second white to Wrath, etc., so I can see it's usefulness there, but I'm not sure if tapping low for something early which can't produce mana is worth it. Prismatic Lens is another option, though I guess it's the same argument as before since you don't need to accelerate or anything.

Thoughts?

If you are running the Snow Engine, then Coldsteel Heart s are a decent choice. Otherwise, I'd rather run Mind Stone or Prismatic Lens if you need the accel.

I am looking through the forum and see something I dont think is right.

Teferi's moat does not protect Jace Beleren , right?

hellgrammite00 wrote:

I am looking through the forum and see something I dont think is right.

Teferi's moat does not protect Jace Beleren , right?

Nope. Your opponent gets to attack Jace directly as though he was a separate player, so the Moat does nothing to stop this.

Antiphonal wrote:

I'm doing "testbed" analysis of U/W with some of the new cards. With the new focus being on aggro, I've been testing against stuff like U/G Madness decks from back in the day, thinking it will be unlikely for Lorwyn decks to be more difficult to disrupt (and packing its own cheap countermagic, draw, and MD enchantment destruction).

Basically, I'm using this control core:

OK, 23-24 cards, so you have about 12 to work with.

I'm open to suggestion here, but saying Tithe sucks (which it doesn't), or suggesting Cryptic Command (which is rough on the triple-blue and 4cc) isn't what I'm looking for.

Tithe doesn't suck, but it does have an important drawback in a long game, which you are presumably playing for. Command is so good, I think it's probably a mistake not to run it if you can.

Even without Rule of Law, and with or without Buyback, Spell Burst can be quite good against decks with low curves. Also very good against Morphs, and Pickles seems to be doing fine after the rotation.

[...discussion...]

I know what to do post-board (I have a weird mana base that allows me to side in Quagnoths and Take Possession). But I am a bit leery of just running Mesa+Crovax as my MD win-condition.


Thoughts?

Hmm.

One thing is that even some aggro decks are running Oblivion Ring MD now, since it works on creatures too, so there is more removal for stuff like Mesa than pre-LOR.

Mirror Entity may be superior to Crovax, Ascendant Hero as a support card for Mesa. It is fairly resistant against damage-based or -X/-X removal, although "destroy/RFG target" will still kill it. But the idea would probably be to play it on a turn when you can swing for lethal with a few Mesa tokens/manlands across an open board, so it will still do its job even it's immediately removed. On its own, it's not evasive, but it can swing pretty big with Calciform Pools mana and dodge some removal by pumping itself. Certainly more explosive, and its CMC is half that of Crovax.

Have you thought about Ajani Goldmane ? If you have board control against aggro, he can get you out of burn range while building up loyalty for an avatar. His second ability is pretty good with Mesa tokens (and manlands, I guess...?) too.

If people who have tested are to be believed, Jace Beleren could be a viable draw engine that gives you a secondary win-con, too.

One advantage of the walkers is that they live through WoG, obviously.

Otherwise, I think you need to decide what is most important to you. You can have some combination Flash speed, removal hardness, affordable CMC, clock, defensive utility, and useful secondary abilities. But unfortunately not all of them...

Thoughts about Planeswalkers:

1. If you're running Ajani mainly for the lifegain, don't. The Avatar function combined with the lifegain function is nice, but really, that's more suitable for a ProclaMartyr deck, should it survive the rotation.

Gaining 2 life a turn for is inefficient.

As such, I think that Ajani's usefulness in a mostly control deck is limited. His lifegain control element is weak, and his wincon element is not superior to I better cards like Mesa.

2. I have my doubts about Jace. I'm sure he can be used to great effect in a Rule of One deck or in a Turbofog deck, but in a traditional board control deck, he either Howling Mines you against an Aggro deck (which isn't really that advisable) or he absorbs 2 damage while drawing you a card, which is weak for the cost and the card.

It's possible that the option to switch on or off the Howling Mine and Reviving Dose effect might be enough to push Jace into usefulness, but I have my doubts. In many cases, I'd rather have Think Twice , since it doesn't tie up the mana.

For a good control effect and wincon, the best card is actually Chandra Nalaar. She can remove lots of little weenies and can absorb a substantial amount of damage before kicking it. If you get her in a stable board position, she can wipe the board for a Mesa sweep on top of 10 direct damage. That's an effect I could see myself tapping out for. It's such a shame that she's red.

Roxlimn wrote:

Gaining 2 life a turn for is inefficient.

But so is dying to a top-decked Incinerate ...

To be clear, I was saying that he finishes the game for you after you have survived the initial rush. I agree that he's not a good T4 play, but getting out of burn range once the board is clear seems worthwhile if you can get a 10/10 token (or whatever) in a couple turns without investing any further mana, and nuke the board without regrets.

2. I have my doubts about Jace. I'm sure he can be used to great effect in a Rule of One deck or in a Turbofog deck, but in a traditional board control deck, he either Howling Mines you against an Aggro deck (which isn't really that advisable) or he absorbs 2 damage while drawing you a card, which is weak for the cost and the card.

A lot of people who have tested Jace claim he is very good. That is enough to convince me (despite being initially skeptical too) to try him.

For a good control effect and wincon, the best card is actually Chandra Nalaar. She can remove lots of little weenies and can absorb a substantial amount of damage before kicking it. If you get her in a stable board position, she can wipe the board for a Mesa sweep on top of 10 direct damage. That's an effect I could see myself tapping out for.

Yeah, I'd tap that too.

But "a stable board position" doesn't sound as fun as some others I can think of...

Regarding Ajani:

If you control the board, practically anything is a worthwhile finisher. Heck, Mistmeadow Skulk gains you life and whittles down the enemy, too, for cheaper.

The argument: "If I control the board, he helps me win," is not a convincing one. What a control deck is looking for is a win-con that ALSO helps to control the board in a powerful way. Ajani does not do that.

Regarding Jace:

Heck, I'll try anything once, too. I'll even try Glass Golem, and I don't need people telling me it's good to do it. Test away, my friend. I'm just voicing a general skepticism about him in a control function.

I've been running a version right now that has been doing very well. Aggro has just been a steam roll, though I am not completely happy yet with the control match up.

My removal suite has been 2 nodes, 4 condemn, 2 story circle(not really removal I know), 4 wrath, 2 austere command.

2 nodes hasn't been bad. I wasn't originally a big fan of the card, but it has grown on me. It's so far caused aggro decks some ugly choices, killed trolls, and bought me time. It combined with.....

Condemn. Probably the MVP of my removal suite. Alot of people oddly have just not seen it coming, and ignored the innocuous one white mana I've had open. It's cheap cost and speed make it my MVP so far. In particularly it's allowed me to keep hands that if I had chosen more expensive removal would not have been as viable.

Wrath of course is standard. The two command was a test that has worked well. It's primary place there is for redundancy but it's flexibility has been usefull.

Story circle is just a kick in the nutz.

I've gone with mesa as the primary win con. Late game when I drop it, it's just silly good. Most games are conceded to it before actually finishing. I like footprints but I prefer the speed and chump blocking of mesa. I did put two footprints in the sb for redundancy to see how it hells a control match up though.

3 chroniclers, 2 Crovax(which is fun with mesa) and 1 Akroma round out my win cons.

My prefered card draw has been Tidings and the psuedo drawing of scrying sheets. I don't have Teferi's Moat in the board, but I do think it's a good card. For me I didn't use it as my aggro match is very solid already. So my sb tends to be for control.

Roxlimn wrote:

Regarding Ajani:

If you control the board, practically anything is a worthwhile finisher. Heck, Mistmeadow Skulk gains you life and whittles down the enemy, too, for cheaper.

The argument: "If I control the board, he helps me win," is not a convincing one. What a control deck is looking for is a win-con that ALSO helps to control the board in a powerful way. Ajani does not do that.

Regarding Jace:

Heck, I'll try anything once, too. I'll even try Glass Golem, and I don't need people telling me it's good to do it. Test away, my friend. I'm just voicing a general skepticism about him in a control function.

If you are running Sacred Mesa , Ajani can make the tokens into 2/2's, then 3/3's, etc. With any amount of mana available for making tokens at EoT, this is a pretty fast clock. And last time I checked, Mistmeadow Skulk did not produce evasive X/X avatar tokens if you can protect him for a couple turns either.

I agree with you about one thing though - I prefer win-cons that have defensive utility. The poster I was replying to specifically asked about something that can win with a faster clock and lower mana investment, though. Ajani by himself is about a 4-turn clock for a total investment of , with a not useless, cost-free side-effect (life gain) and effective immunity to commonly run removal. Ajani with Sacred Mesa is more like a 2-3 turn clock that costs no more mana than you would spend anyway on Mesa tokens. And he gives Mesa tokens Vigilance, which may occasionally be helpful. He's not Akroma, Angel of Wrath , clearly, but he also costs half as much.

As for Jace, as I said, I was skeptical too, and I have little personal experience with him because I play on MTGO and Lorwyn isn't released there yet. But a number of people who aren't idiots have run him in various control decks, and their reports are overwhelmingly favorable. Make of that what you will. Listening to people and benefitting from their experience is no vice.

Roxlimn wrote:

[b]Regarding Jace:

Heck, I'll try anything once, too. I'll even try Glass Golem, and I don't need people telling me it's good to do it. Test away, my friend. I'm just voicing a general skepticism about him in a control function.

I was on your side of the fence about Jace, too, but then I noticed that, once you stop the initial aggro onslaught and are holding 1-2 more removal or blockers (or better yet, you have a Mesa in play) he's just stupidly good because even if you Howling Mine once what can they draw that can scare you?
Calciderm?
Serra Avenger?
Stonewood Invocation?
Burn?

Everything isn't that much of a problem in the mid game, because you can deal with almost everything they'll throw at you.
Even if they choose to burn Jace out after you Howling Mine'd they'll still be down a card because most played burn spell deal 3 damage (unless they play Beacon of Destruction ) so that's still a 2 for 1 trade, which isn't bad.
Otherwise if they burn you (and that isn't even an option if you're playing Purity) to try and race that's even better because you can lay a finisher and seal the game in a few swings.

SiderealEX wrote:

Condemn. Probably the MVP of my removal suite. Alot of people oddly have just not seen it coming, and ignored the innocuous one white mana I've had open. It's cheap cost and speed make it my MVP so far. In particularly it's allowed me to keep hands that if I had chosen more expensive removal would not have been as viable.

Condemn is THE BEST spot removal you can run in this deck, followed by ORing (for its versatility).
Crib Swap is inferior to both so playing it when you already have 2 better options doesn't make sense.

Well I'm testing Jace too and except against overly aggressive decks (where you can always side him out for more removals) he pretty much fueled my hand the whole game.

The critic many of us -me included- moved to Jace was that if you're in such a shape that the opponent can't damage you, you already won. This is a fallacy especially vs Control and Tempo, but the again if Aggro can't damage you, you have the upper edge indeed, but nonetheless they can recover, and Aggro decks of today are solid enough to do that. Fueling your hand, it helps you stabilizing.

Ajani left me highly unimpressed in Control decks, and I'm a ProclaMartyr player. Some players advocate a use for him in Aggro, anyway.

Momo wrote:

Ajani left me highly unimpressed in Control decks, and I'm a ProclaMartyr player. Some players advocate a use for him in Aggro, anyway.

When I first saw Ajani, I immediately thought of his applications in ProclaMartyr and White Power decks, but the more I look at him the less useful I find him in those decks. Ajani really shines when you have a load of critters out ready to alpha-strike; while he may be fun with Mesa, if you are ever in that position you should have the game in hand already. Gaining 2 life per turn is wholly unimpressive, and if your opponent cannot provide an answer to the Avatar token that they can see from a mile off then any other finisher would work just as well.

On the subject of Martyr or not, if you decide to run her and if you have 3+ SB slots to fill, run Enduring Renewal for the Aggro matchups.

Whether you play Mesa or Hoofprints, the lifegain and beats will bring it home (eventually). The downsides of the ER (show hand & ditch creatures drawn) shouldn't be a problem in a deck that's about to gain a lot of life and runs very few other creatures.

Condemn is THE BEST spot removal you can run in this deck, followed by ORing (for its versatility).
Crib Swap is inferior to both so playing it when you already have 2 better options doesn't make sense.

I definitely agree on Condemn. I personally don't like O-ring so I don't use it in my deck, though it is very versatile and having maindeck enchantment and/or artifact removal can be important for this deck. I would never use Crib Swap in any builds, but that's my preference.

Zimagic wrote:

On the subject of Martyr or not, if you decide to run her and if you have 3+ SB slots to fill, run Enduring Renewal for the Aggro matchups.

Whether you play Mesa or Hoofprints, the lifegain and beats will bring it home (eventually). The downsides of the ER (show hand & ditch creatures drawn) shouldn't be a problem in a deck that's about to gain a lot of life and runs very few other creatures.

Problem being:

1. This deck is not about gaining a lot of life;

2. This deck doesn't want the opponent to know what's in hand:

3. both tweaking your deck to gain more life and recurring with Enduring Renewal are terrible strategies. I didn't even took that into consideration for ProclaMartyr, let alone here.

I run 4 martyrs in mine, but I run no sort of recursion or anything else for it. They simply act as another weapon to frustrate aggro. On average I gain from 9-15 life from it. Generally, I prefer this use of the card to those that try to use deck slots on recursion.

Agreed on the gain life aspect. Gaining life should never be a focus, but a welcome bonus. Faith's Fetters is a good example, and saw alot of play in the past for this deck.

Behold, the 80% White 20% Blue control deck

3 Aeon Chronicler
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Crovax, Ascendant Hero

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Porphyry Nodes
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Beacon of Immortality
3 Condemn
2 Forsee
4 Wrath of God

2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Jace Beleren

6 Snow-Covered Island
9 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Boreal Shelf
2 Mouth of Ronom
4 Scrying Sheets

SB
1 Purity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Take Possesion
2 Teferi's Moat
1 Condemn
2 Pull from Eternity
4 Crib Swap

Whoops, forgot the 4 Coldsteel Heart s.

Back when Xth edition was printed, we discussed the possibilities for abuse of Pariah , but nothing workable came out of it, and I have never seen the card played.

Lorwyn brings us Sygg, River Guide , who is cheap and can acquire protection from any color at instant speed for (per color). Other than the inherent weakness of a 2-card combo and the 2-for-1 possibilities for the opponent (somewhat mitigated by Sygg's ability, though), the other weakness of this is that it doesn't work against - if Sygg gets pro-, the enchantment would fall off. Otherwise, he is fairly removal-resistant.

It still seems like Pariah could be a useful card for us. It removes Gaddock Teeg and 'Goyfs as effectively as Oblivion Ring , plus granting a Fog.

Heart of Light combo's nicely with Pariah , and is useful enough alone. Putting both on any creature, even one of the opponent's, pretty much means no more damage to you, unless the opponent has a way to remove their own creature that doesn't involve damaging it.

Of course the other obvious friend of Pariah is Stuffy Doll . Yes, he has a bad rep, but with some accel, he could come down early enough to matter. Stuffy lives through Wrath of God , which is nice, and gives you a win-con that helps take control of the game.

Probably a stretch, but maybe there is a way to make it work?

I do not know about Stuffy Doll. What exactly are you trying to look for right now? Is it a stall card against aggro? A combo? Because if it is the former, I do not think we really need another one. As for a combo, we could get the combo stabilized and working probably around the time that we would have achieved board control.

Additionally, stuffy doll is one slow wincon.... unless the opponent is stupid enough to attack into it.

The wincon I have been thinking about is forced fruition . It stops Haakon Inverted dead in its tracks, not to mention against control and aggro decks, especially when you have a few counters in hand. I only see it being bad against a combo deck similar to Project X or Dragonstorm (But we don't have to worry about those). :D

smurf007 wrote:

I do not know about Stuffy Doll. What exactly are you trying to look for right now? Is it a stall card against aggro? A combo? Because if it is the former, I do not think we really need another one. As for a combo, we could get the combo stabilized and working probably around the time that we would have achieved board control.

I am trying to achieve a lock where it is impossible for me to take damage.

The reason I'm not content with the old-school strategy is that it isn't so easy to maintain board control by making mostly 1-for-1 trades with counters and removal.

Additionally, stuffy doll is one slow wincon.... unless the opponent is stupid enough to attack into it.

True, but if the opponent can't damage me without it hitting Stuffy (and himself) then I am in pretty good shape. If I don't have to spend mana and always find a card to answer most of his stuff, I can afford other win cons like Mesa, Akroma, etc better.

The wincon I have been thinking about is forced fruition . It stops Haakon Inverted dead in its tracks, not to mention against control and aggro decks, especially when you have a few counters in hand. I only see it being bad against a combo deck similar to Project X or Dragonstorm (But we don't have to worry about those). :D

Kind of dangerous on its own. Might be OK with Rule of Law, but then you still need answers. Other problem is that Fruition doesn't really do much to control the game state (other than filling the opponent's hand, which can be problematic) until it takes the last card.

smurf007 wrote:

The wincon I have been thinking about is forced fruition . It stops Haakon Inverted dead in its tracks, not to mention against control and aggro decks, especially when you have a few counters in hand. I only see it being bad against a combo deck similar to Project X or Dragonstorm (But we don't have to worry about those). :D

I've been testing Frution as a win-con, and am loving it. It's quite literally gg to any storm-based combo, as they are limited to a storm count of less than 6, which is pretty much unachievable now. It also lets us sidestep the massive amount of creature hate our meta will see. In addition, if you play it right, such as post-wrath with counter backup, all you have to do is withstand 5 or 6 spells, and you win. I'm finding it amazing in my Sunken Hope[c] deck as well, due to obvious synergies. Edit: With regards to the fact that we are giving them massive amounts of CA, I would like to remind you that our deck is especially suited to dealing with these problems. Aggro digs to find their burn? Counter it. Control drops a fat wincon? [c]Crib Swap it, Condemn it, and just dare them to start a counter war. You'd just have to remember to run a considerable amount of card advantage of your own. I'm actually running 10 sources of heavy CA.

I'm also liking the idea of Fruition as a wincon... Maybe add Scattering Stroke to get it into play more quickly/with counter-backup? Sunken Hope seems like it would be fun as well. :D

The problem I see is that you need a way to force the opponent to play spells (i.e. something like a real win-con), otherwise, why would they bother unless it is to their advantage? Playing it with counter backup is going to be very slow.

I don't think it's as bullet-proof as suggested either. Jotun Grunt , which is showing up in some builds to hose 'Goyf/Haakon, eats it for lunch. Blink decks, with lots of Bounce, can deal with it. Take Possession is also played, and is a nice answer - you can't counter it, I draw 7 cards, and now you can't play all your answers without milling yourself.

Teferi in response to it - so the game-deciding counter war happens before it resolves, after you have already tapped down - seems like GG too. Even if it comes out first, the opponent *will* win any counter-war, until they run out of cards, since every counter they play draws them 7 more cards to respond to your counter.

It's an interesting card, but seems about as likely to let the game get out of control as to win it.

BookWorm wrote:

It's an interesting card, but seems about as likely to let the game get out of control as to win it.

And that's exactly the problem.
After drawing 7 they're more than likely to draw an answer or, even worse, they'll play said answer AND draw 7

Updated my list. I decided less counters and more removal to have more control over agro. I guess i'll just sideboard Delay for mirrors.

Lands
2 Nimbus Maze
4 Adarkar Wastes
2 Calciform Pools
1 Urza's Factory
2 Tolaria West
1 Faerie Conclave
5 Plains
7 Island
1 Forbiding Watchtower

Win Con
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Aeon Chronicler
2 Draining Whelk
2 Sacred Mesa

Spells
4 Condemn
4 Wrath of God
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Rune Snag
4 Cancel
3 Porphyry Nodes
4 Think Twice
2 Tidings / Careful Consideration

Turn one Porphyry Nodes can delay agro for a turn or more. Replaced Arcanis for Aeon.

Zero008 wrote:

Updated my list. I decided less counters and more removal to have more control over agro. I guess i'll just sideboard Delay for mirrors.

Looks like about the best one can do. Only nit I might pick is whether the Tolaria West are really worth it.

In other news, two control decks finished in the Top-8 of StarCityGames 1K tournament last weekend:

"4th Place, Brian Braun-Duin" Show

"6th place, Daniel Crane" Show

The tournament was won by an Elf deck, of all things...

Edit: Also courtesy of SCG, this odd build from Mike Flores

Spoiler: Show

Being the curious being that I am I HAD to test Flores' version of the deck.

And I must really say that, if tuned better, it can INDEED be an awesome deck.

Now, obviously 4 of Valkyries, Chronicler and Purity are WAY too much and I found a bit better running 3-3-3, making space for 3 MD Wrath of God that help a WHOLE lot against aggro.
In the SB I'd put something like Teferi's Moat and other nastiness such as Kestrel to help yourself against things like Thorn of Amethyst, Militia's Pride and Prowess of the Fair.

Absolutely don't waste time mocking the deck beforehand if you never played it because, while it doesn't look like it, it's very solid since it has a dig capabilities and speed that's almost impressive.
You'll often find yourself starting to outrace aggro deck by turn -45 with 6/6 that stop burn on your face, 4/5 Vigilance to recycle anything they might want to block and infinite/infinite Chroniclers, that can't get much bigger than in this deck thanks to Mulldrifters, Blink, themselves and Sheets.

Jiaozy wrote:

Absolutely don't waste time mocking the deck beforehand if you never played it

Why should we? It doesn't look horrible at all.

Plus, Mike Flores has a reputation for putting four-ofs in decks when he's sold about their theorical power regardless of the card's place in the curve (4x Mishra?), so the need to optimize card numbers from a deck of his it's not going to make anyone scream.

If anything, what makes me raise an eyebrow is the absence of exquisite blinkables like cloudskate and the SB disenchant instead of Kestrel.

Oh, while we're at it, I'd like to add that blink on a drifter is horribly painful.

Momo wrote:

If anything, what makes me raise an eyebrow is the absence of exquisite blinkables like cloudskate and the SB disenchant instead of Kestrel.

He addresses the absence of Cloudskates, sort of:

Last year I organized all kinds of mock tournaments, played sixteen decks against each other, and tested with Asher, PJ, Julian, Billy, everyone, all the time. This year I didn't even realize that Champs was basically upon us until Paul alerted me to it last week. It's strange... Come Champs last year I literally felt like I knew the format better than anyone else on the planet... This year I am missing all kinds of obvious things. I know I don't have Riftwing Cloudskate, I am at peace with having no Riftwing Cloudskates, but I had been testing for three or four hours tonight before I realized that I never considered that card... and it's a pretty basic one. Little things like that need to be sanded off.

Seems to me that Sower of Temptation would be a good card for him, maybe as good or better than Riftwing Cloudskate . If you can get the stolen creature into combat with lethal damage being dealt to it and/or by it vs something else, Blinking Sower with damage on the stack could be multiple CA. Has synergy with Adarkar Valkyrie too.

Wispmare is an alternative to Cloudchaser Kestrel - 1/3 flying body instead of 2/2, but slightly less color intensive, plus Evoke option. Oblivion Ring also seems better than Disenchant .

Flores promises "my final version and recommendations" tomorrow...

Okay, this hasn't been done in a while, but I think that UW control needs a go-to list and a layout of division of cards. In my opinion, it depends on your meta, but I think (probably am wrong) this is probably what is a good layout:

24-26 Lands

3-5 Non Urza's Factory Win Conditions

10-12 Removal

6-10 Card Draw

10-12 Counters

I don't think that UW wants any artifact accel, at least not draw-go, the deck I am talking about.

Thoughts?

ownage wrote:

Okay, this hasn't been done in a while, but I think that UW control needs a go-to list and a layout of division of cards. In my opinion, it depends on your meta, but I think (probably am wrong) this is probably what is a good layout:

I don't think that UW wants any artifact accel, at least not draw-go, the deck I am talking about.

Thoughts?

Well, we see a lot of people posting decks that look similar to your outline. It is what I would call an "old skool" type control deck (I don't mean that perjoratively). It is not the only option though.

The possible weakness I see (and why I am kind of reluctant about running such a deck) is that it is largely trying to establish control by paying "retail" - 1-for-1 trades of counters and spot removal (that would be the 10-12 counters and 6-8 removal, not including Wrath of God in your list). That means WoG and the draw spells are our main avenue for gaining an advantage and control of the game. A "retail" strategy means coming up with an answer for almost every threat, and hopefully making up the difference with a well-timed WoG. I think you can do it, but it feels dicey to me.

WoG is the best card we have, but is a bit devalued by Gaddock Teeg , Champion stuff, Prowess of the Fair , etc. Old Skool basically relies on finding WoG in time, THEN being able to answer every threat individually ("retail").

Some of the better draw cards are also a bit devalued by Teeg. I realize he is not ZOMFG broken, but my nightmare is being beaten down with 3 Wrath of God and 2 Tidings or Careful Consideration that I can't use in my hand, and Teeg mocking me from across the board. The only CMC 3 draw spell is the rather meh Counsel of the Soratami , so we are stuck with Think Twice (good if you have the luxury of time, which Remand , etc used to give us, but slow to generate minimal CA), Ponder (no CA, and minimal filtering), Telling Time (ditto), Ancestral Visions (slow, but otherwise efficient), Whispers of the Muse ( Think Twice is better early), etc.

Also, obviously, the LOR rotation has stripped some of our best early tempo plays like Remand , Repeal , Court Hussar and Spell Snare . Rune Snag is the only really good CMC 2 counter, after that you are looking at the narrower Remove Soul , the card-disadvantage-generating Delay , or the more color-intensive, expensive and slower Cancel and Faerie Trickery . The decks that are doing well in the tournaments to date (SCG and magic-league) are all running relatively few counterspells and more removal (where LOR was a bit better for us).

The alternative to "retail" (answer each threat) is "wholesale", which I liked pre-LOR. By "wholesale", I mean using cards like Teferi's Moat , Rule of Law + Spell Burst , Imperial Mask , Story Circle , etc that more or less passively invalidate multiple threats with a single card. But this has problems too. -based Aggro decks can now MD Oblivion Ring as removal for creatures OR enchantments. The wholesale enablers tend to be expensive and somewhat slower (and we don't have the good early tempo cards we did before).

More creature-based builds, of which Flores' is one example, may be worth looking at. One advantage is that you can win faster after surviving the initial rush and transitioning to the beat-down more easily. Another is that you can use Momentary Blink , which is comparable in quality to Mystical Teachings , in a suitably built deck. Blink has built-in CA, and there an awful lot of other CA-generating cards that play well with it, at the moment. Another is that you have some early defense against attack by weenies. Another is that you avoid problems with Teeg if your best cards are creatures. Flores' deck could be considered mid-range, rather than control, and accel is clearly required to make it viable.

Massive lifegain is another route. Nickel-and-dime, one-shot lifegain (e.g. 4 Martyrs only) isn't going to do much good, so this seems like something you need to commit to (and arguably belongs in the ProclaMartyr archetype).

So, anyway, your list is a good outline, IF you decide from the start you want to play OldSkool UW control. The real question is whether that is the best use of the cards we have available.

BookWorm wrote:

Wispmare is an alternative to Cloudchaser Kestrel - 1/3 flying body instead of 2/2, but slightly less color intensive, plus Evoke option. Oblivion Ring also seems better than Disenchant .

Flores promises "my final version and recommendations" tomorrow...

True, I thought Whispermare cost was 3W instead at 2W makes for a better SB option.
The only Artifact I'd like to deal with fast is Thorn of Amethyst and Disenchant doesn't really help much about it...
Loxodon Warhammer can easily be outraced with 6/6 fliers, huge Chroniclers, bounced with Venser or be left without a creature to attach to :P

Jiaozy wrote:

True, I thought Whispermare cost was 3W instead at 2W makes for a better SB option.
The only Artifact I'd like to deal with fast is Thorn of Amethyst and Disenchant doesn't really help much about it...
Loxodon Warhammer can easily be outraced with 6/6 fliers, huge Chroniclers, bounced with Venser or be left without a creature to attach to :P

True, although Pithing Needle kind of hoses the Scrying Sheets engine. Aggro wouldn't bother of course, but control would find it worthwhile to shut that massive CA down for .

Edit:

"Top-4 deck from a magic-league tourney:" Show

I am going for the old school / control deck since I have neither the time nor the money to try out the new type of / control.

U/W Deck

LAND:
7 x +[plains]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]plains plains &type=card">
8 x +[island]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]island island &type=card">
4 x +[nimbus]+[maze]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]nimbus maze nimbus maze &type=card">
2 x +[adarkar]+[wastes]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]adarkar wastes adarkar wastes &type=card">
2 x +[calciform]+[pools]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]calciform pools calciform pools &type=card">
1 x +[urza]+[s]+[factory]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]urza's factory urza's factory &type=card">

DRAW:
4 x +[think]+[twice]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]think twice think twice &type=card">

COUNTER:
2 x +[remove]+[soul]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]remove soul remove soul &type=card">
4 x +[rune]+[snag]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]rune snag rune snag &type=card">
4 x +[cancel]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]cancel cancel &type=card">
4 x +[dismal]+[failure]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]dismal failure dismal failure &type=card">

REMOVAL:
4 x +[condemn]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]condemn condemn &type=card">
4 x +[oblivion]+[ring]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]oblivion ring oblivion ring &type=card">
4 x +[wrath]+[of]+[god]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]wrath of god wrath of god &type=card">

WIN-CON:
2 x +[aeon]+[chronicler]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]aeon chronicler aeon chronicler &type=card">
2 x +[draining]+[whelk]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]draining whelk draining whelk &type=card">
1 x +[akroma,]+[angel]+[of]+[wrath]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]akroma, angel of wrath akroma, angel of wrath &type=card">
1 x +[mobilization]+[c]" class="linkedCardName" target="_blank">[c]mobilization mobilization &type=card">


I am considering a few cards: porphory nodes , mulldrifter and careful consideration . I do not know what I would replace my deck with for these.

Additionally, I am reluctant to get rid of the dismal failure because they have been instrumental in winning fairly often, also, I only have 1 cryptic command to take a slot, and I don't have the right land base to handle it.

Speaking of land problems, looking at my current list, does my land base seem alright? Will it work? I have been testing it, and varies often. Sometimes I could not ask for a better hand, and others which start out looking fine end up as horrib piles of poo.

I am taking this to my FNM (hoping to finally take 1st). Help is always appreciated. Thanks to all.

3rd Place on October 21st 2007 at the GPT Krakau 2007 in Aachen, Germany.

' U/W Control ' by Patrick Collinet

Creatures [11]
2 Adarkar Valkyrie
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
4 Martyr of Sands

Instants [6]
4 Careful Consideration
2 Condemn

Sorceries [9]
4 Ponder
2 Resurrection
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments [6]
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Sacred Mesa

Artifacts [4]
4 Coldsteel Heart

land [24]
4 Boreal Shelf
4 Scrying Sheets
5 Snow-Covered Island
8 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urza's Factory

Sideboard:
4 Crib Swap
4 Dodecapod
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Condemn
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Sacred Mesa

A UW Faerie deck that abuses Counterbalance , Faerie Harbinger and Momentary Blink .

(The creator's webpage, with discussion)

"Hey, Look What I Found"

// 12 x creatures
4 x *Faerie Harbinger
2 x *Spellstutter Sprite
2 x *Venser, Shaper Savant
2 x *Mistblind Clique
1 x *Sower of Temptation
1 x *Scion of Oona
// 26 x spells
4 x *Counterbalance
4 x *Momentary Blink
4 x *Telling Time
4 x *Rune Snag
3 x *Oblivion Ring
3 x *Faerie Trickery
3 x *Wrath of God
1 x *Crib Swap
// 23 x land
9 x *Island
4 x *Wanderwine Hub
4 x *Faerie Conclave
4 x *Adarkar Wastes
2 x *Calciform Pools
// Sideboard
4 x *Aven Riftwatcher
4 x *Whirlpool Whelm
2 x *Crib Swap
1 x *Wrath of God
1 x *Sower of Temptation
1 x *Changeling Hero
1 x *Spellstutter Sprite
1 x *Faerie Trickery


61 cards, but interesting. Could use Snow + Sheets, which helps Counterbalance .

Edit:

Thinking more about Flores' build, I wonder about a few alternative card choices:

Sower of Temptation
Perilous Research

Sower + Perilous allows you sacrifice a stolen creature, draw 2, and then steal something else with Blink. Perilous also lets you sac Epochrasite early for cards and get him back sooner as a 4/4. If Valkyrie is in play, you can activate it's ability at EoT targeting a creature stolen by Sower, sac the thing to Perilous (+1 CA), get the creature back (now permanently), and then steal something else by Blinking the Sower (+1.5 CA). That's +2.5 CA, in addition to the +2 CA you got the first time you played the Sower. If Valkyrie and Mulldrifter are in play, you can activate Valkyrie's ability targeting Mulldrifter , sac Mulldrifter to Perilous Research (draw 2) and then return Mulldrifter (draw another 2). That's +3 CA for ... Another degenerate play that the original deck includes is to Evoke Mulldrifter , target it with Valkyrie, and draw 4 for when all is said and done. Draw another 2 for + if you play Perilous Research to sac with the Evoke trigger on the stack.

Another card that seems worth considering, probably sideboard, is Vesuvan Shapeshifter . You can play this face-down and then Blink it into a 4/4 Epochrasite , or a Mulldrifter , or another Sower of Temptation , or the opponent's best creature, etc. You can also just hard-cast it as a copy of something like Mulldrifter or Sower of Temptation for CA. Handy to have in the Pickles matchup, and copying Adarkar Valkyrie makes both the copy and the original fairly invincible.

Maybe:

+3 Sower of Temptation
+2 Perilous Research
-1 Adarkar Valkyrie
-1 Mulldrifter
-1 or 2 Aeon Chronicler
-1 or 2 Purity

I'd also be tempted to try replacing the 4x Rune Snag with Cancel 's or 3x Cryptic Command .

Jiaozy suggest MD WoG, but with this deck's curve and accel, Austere Command might be playable as a 1-sided alternative.

Edit2:

Testing this. The Sowers indeed seem very good with the rest of the deck.

Spoiler: Show

Most of you guys are probably out at your states but over here in Ireland, mine is already over. And I tied for first (we split after the cut and I was equal on tiebreakers with the other guy on top). Here's the deck, which is a slightly modified version of the Snow Control deck from the Starcity Tournament last week:

4x Scrying Sheets
4x Boreal Shelf
2x Mouth of Ronom
1x Urza's Factory
6x Snow-Covered Island
8x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Martyr of Sands
4x Aeon Chronicler
1x Purity
1x Crovax, Ascendant Hero

4x Wrath of God
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Condemn
3x Porphyry Nodes
2x Sacred Mesa
2x Fathom Trawl
4x Coldsteel Heart
2x Jace Beleren
2x Ajani Goldmane

Sideboard
1x Urza's Factory
1x Condemn
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Porphyry Nodes
2x Austere Command
3x Take Possession
2x Pull from Eternity
2x Willbender
1x Vesuvan Shapeshifter
1x Sacred Mesa

The turnout for the event was pretty poor (only about 15-20 people) so there were 4 rounds. I ended up 3-0-1 after the swiss.

1st Round - G/B Elves
Poor version of probably the Elf deck that won the same Starcity tournament. Wasn't running planeswalkers and so it was pretty cut and dried. Just ground him out both games by getting a bunch of lifegain and then killing him with Sacred Mesa.

2nd Round - G/B Elves
See above pretty much with a bit of Aeon Chroniclers being huge to crush through.

3rd Round - G/W Aggro
Not Kithkins at all and was a really interesting take on the archetype. It didn't play Tarmogoyf (I'm sure somebody is surprised) but it probably wouldn't have benefitted in the deck. Instead it ran Troll Ascetic, Masked Admirers and Ohran Viper for card advantage, Teeg, Spectral Force and Loxodon Warhammers plus accel.

Game 1 he came rushing out of the gates with plenty of acceleration the first two turns. Seeing a bunch of creatures in play, I slapped the nodes down. This held off 3 turns of creatures because he was afraid to overcommit to the board with Nodes in play. This gave me plenty of time to stabilise after the 2 Spectral Force he played. At one point he was on 42 life, but Crovax plus Pegasus ate through that life total.

Number of dead Spectral Force due to Pegasus Tokens - 2

Sideboard plan was:
-2 Jace
-2 Fathom Trawl
-1 Aeon Chronicler
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Condemn
+1 Porphyry Nodes
+2 Austere Command (Sure I'd seen Teeg, but he was playing Oblivion Ring and Warhammer. Warhammer was the most annoying card out of his entire deck)

Game 2 was a blowout. I mulliganed to 5 after getting a land glut and no land on consecutive draws. 5 card hand was 2 Martyrs, a plains, a wrath and a coldsteel heart. I did manage to get him down to 13 with the Martyrs (including a 3rd one), but I soon ran out of cards as soon as he dropped Spectral Forces.

Game 3 was really, really close. He went through all 3 Teegs in his deck, and for a while I had a feeling I wasn't going to get by him. The key was Scrying Sheets. It allowed me to draw so many cards that would have been dead draws otherwise. I stabilised at 4 after 3 Teegs, 3 Ascetics, 3 Forces. Awesome game that I really enjoyed and I was glad that I'd managed to play it as well as I did.

Round 4 - R/G GreaterGoyf
We Id'ed to make sure we were in the top 4 (turnout was so small that we couldn't cut to top 8) since we were the only ones on 9 at this stage. We played it out and it was 2-1 to him but close. The crux of the match hinged on whether or not I drew Martyr when I had a bunch of white cards in my hand. If I did, he generally couldn't win. Still it's a close one.

Overall I was impressed with the deck and if you weren't sure of the some of the changes, here's the main ones:

+1/+1 Urza's Factory: Was definitely required for the deck. Cutting one snow card didn't really affect the probability of drawing out snow cards from the sheets and it was so necessary in control on control games. In those matches I found that you didn't want to play Mesa simply because they would steal it with Take Possession or just Oblivion Ring it. Factory was better because you could grind out their answers with other things and then drop the Factories for the win. I didn't play a control deck on the day as you saw, but in testing Factory was crucial.

+2 Fathom Trawl: Originally it was Foresee and I found that incredibly clunky. Sure the odd time it would set up an awesome draw where you'd get two decent cards and then scry another 2 lands off your deck but this didn't happen nearly as much as you'd think. Trawl is however an awesome card for both getting to your answers and also for building a hand for Martyr and Chronicler. This generally equalled an extra 9 life for a Martyr once I cast it.

I think the deck was decent and performed well against aggro as I expected it to do. It has so many answers to aggro that provided you hit the right cards for the right matchups, you simply cannot lose. I would've liked to have played more control matches to see how the deck fares there because I think that's the main area where it would need work. Still I'll take my result and the Doran/Playmat.

Oriss doesn't see any play, does she?

There used to be a B/W deck comboing her with Undertaker , but I was wondering if there was anything near viable in U that could help her to lock the opponent.

Akira_Everhate wrote:

Snip Show

' U/W Control ' by Patrick Collinet

Creatures [11]
2 Adarkar Valkyrie
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
4 Martyr of Sands

Instants [6]
4 Careful Consideration
2 Condemn

Sorceries [9]
4 Ponder
2 Resurrection
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments [6]
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Sacred Mesa

Artifacts [4]
4 Coldsteel Heart

land [24]
4 Boreal Shelf
4 Scrying Sheets
5 Snow-Covered Island
8 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urza's Factory

Sideboard:
4 Crib Swap
4 Dodecapod
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Condemn
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Sacred Mesa

That's not Control, it's a full-on Martyr deck.

Aldwyn wrote:

Snip Show

Most of you guys are probably out at your states but over here in Ireland, mine is already over. And I tied for first (we split after the cut and I was equal on tiebreakers with the other guy on top). Here's the deck, which is a slightly modified version of the Snow Control deck from the Starcity Tournament last week:

4x Scrying Sheets
4x Boreal Shelf
2x Mouth of Ronom
1x Urza's Factory
6x Snow-Covered Island
8x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Martyr of Sands
4x Aeon Chronicler
1x Purity
1x Crovax, Ascendant Hero

4x Wrath of God
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Condemn
3x Porphyry Nodes
2x Sacred Mesa
2x Fathom Trawl
4x Coldsteel Heart
2x Jace Beleren
2x Ajani Goldmane

Sideboard
1x Urza's Factory
1x Condemn
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Porphyry Nodes
2x Austere Command
3x Take Possession
2x Pull from Eternity
2x Willbender
1x Vesuvan Shapeshifter
1x Sacred Mesa

Again, it's more of a Martyr deck.

Neither of these decks run a single Counter or any of Control's draw spells/engines (Except Aeon Chronicler / Jace , but those are widely played in Martyr decks as well.) The only thing that makes it anything like Control is that it plays removal and splashes for Blue. (Though the second list could arguably be called U/W Control. And by arguably, I mean that people vying for this Archetype t ostay in DtB will use this as an example, though it holds little to no similarity to any other decklist in the thread.)

buddhajew92 wrote:

That's not Control, it's a full-on Martyr deck.

Again, it's more of a Martyr deck.

Neither of these decks run a single Counter or any of Control's draw spells/engines (Except Aeon Chronicler / Jace , but those are widely played in Martyr decks as well.) The only thing that makes it anything like Control is that it plays removal and splashes for Blue. (Though the second list could arguably be called U/W Control. And by arguably, I mean that people vying for this Archetype t ostay in DtB will use this as an example, though it holds little to no similarity to any other decklist in the thread.)

I would say what makes them Control decks is that both are undeniably , and both are undeniably Control decks.

We are a big tent. If it has Island s, Plains and plays a control strategy, it is welcome here (AFAIC). Counterspells are optional. Wrath of God is optional. Let a thousand flowers bloom...

And I think you are mistaken that they "hold little to no similarity to any other decklist in the thread". You will find decks with Martyr of Sands discussed in the last page or two. You will also find decks with Aven Riftwatcher , Venser, Shaper Savant , Momentary Blink , Rule of Law , Mystical Teachings , and just about every other or card that might be useful in a control deck that includes Island s and Plains .

One could equally argue that there is no need for separate threads with all the different variants of UW control. From the point of view of providing examples for a testing gauntlet, what is essential is that representatives of the most competitive variants be regularly updated on the front page, which hasn't happened in a long time here, unfortunately (although the first post does try to do this for the obsolete meta of a year ago, it has not been updated in many months).

From the point of view of discussing the card choices in a deck (the deck-builder's point of view), if it is

a) , and
b) Control

there is a large overlap, and one person's ideas and experience may help another, even if the decks have somewhat different focus. That, at least, has been my experience in the past, and why I find this thread so instructive.

Edit:

Oriss doesn't see any play, does she?

No. UW has no good way to get discards out of the graveyard, so any lock requires something hopelessly clunky like Enduring Renewal + Reya Dawnbringer . As a 1-shot, her Grandeur effect is weak given that it requires two cards to work. Her "normal" effect doesn't really do enough to support other cards one might think of like True Believer or Pariah . I suppose she would be an OK early blocker, if you don't like the alternatives (e.g. Martyr of Sands , Bottle Gnomes , Aven Riftwatcher , Phyrexian Ironfoot , Epochrasite ), but the fact that she can't use her ability to prevent damage to herself the turn she is played makes her less attractive.

BookWorm wrote:

...but the fact that she can't use her ability to prevent damage to herself the turn she is played makes her less attractive.

Not really; she is still very attractive.

But seriously, no, Oriss is far too clunky and card-consuming to get off the ground, even with Undertaker (which is by far the best way to recur her in T2).

KKEYSER4063 wrote:

Not really; she is still very attractive.

For some reason, the artwork has always given me the impression that she has 4 arms.

BookWorm wrote:

For some reason, the artwork has always given me the impression that she has 4 arms.

At first glance, me too. But I still find her extraordinarily attractive

(We should go ahead and just turn this into the Official Say Creepy Things About Oriss thread)

Mollusk wrote:

At first glance, me too. But I still find her extraordinarily attractive

Meh.

But as long as we're on the subject of Legendary females with stunning artwork that nobody plays...

Braids, Conjurer Adept FtW

(I'm pretty unfamiliar with control so please bear with me)

Though surprisingly, in a meta full of aggro, I'm really wanting to create a U/W control deck. I had a U/W Reanimator, but losing many key cards to the Rav rotation really hurt it, so I figured I'd just take my 4 WoG, 4 Condemn, Akromas, Resurrections maybe, over to a control deck. Anyway...

In a meta swamped with strong aggro, is Remove Soul seeing any MD play, if any at all? I know there is a bit of a loss of SOLID counters right now, save 'Snag, with the loss of Remand.

And what happened to Delay? I've seen discussion in this thread bashing it, yet when it first came out, some said it rivaled Remand.

Mollusk wrote:

In a meta swamped with strong aggro, is Remove Soul seeing any MD play, if any at all? I know there is a bit of a loss of SOLID counters right now, save 'Snag, with the loss of Remand.

Remove Soul is a decent choice in the meta IMO. It doesn't begin to fill the void left by Spell Snare/Remand, but it does its job. (Most of the time you are going to be countering a creature anyways, whether it is that T2 Troll vs. Aggro or that EoT Teferi vs. CTRL.)

And what happened to Delay? I've seen discussion in this thread bashing it, yet when it first came out, some said it rivaled Remand.

Unless you are countering a situational spell , Delay is basically just a bounce spell, which equates to card disadvantage for you. This deck is focused on making it to the late-game, so whatever you counter with an early Delay you WILL see again (unless you manage to get down a Teferi in the meantime). In a more aggressive deck, Delay might be a good choice because you would be able to win before whatever it is that you Delay'd comes back. In this type of deck, however, it is sub-par IMO. (Remand worked so well because it slowed your opponent down and replaced itself; no such luck with Delay. )

you guys brushed of that flores list to quickly

i am currently calling it Frosted Flakes and this is my current version

3 purity
3 adarkar valkyrie
3 aeon chronicler
4 mulldrifter
2 venser shaper savant
4 epochrasite

4 condemn
4 momentary blink
4 coldsteel heart
2 mind stone
4 wrath of god

4 boreal shelf
2 scrying sheets
4 mouth of ronom
6 snow-covered island
8 snow-covered plains

notes: scrying sheets is optional based on the draw power of the deck

counterspells are bad because this deck taps out all the time id say if you want a counter play pact of negation

the creatures are amazing and if you cant afford epochrasite (going for like 8 here) ironfoot works very well too

havnt built a new sideboard since states and the old one was terrible (:rolleye2: ya i took a deck i hadnt played before with no clue on the meta to states)

btw:how do you do the whole deck thing where its in the box with the title all bold whats the code on that?

midgit_ wrote:

btw:how do you do the whole deck thing where its in the box with the title all bold whats the code on that?

[deck="Insert Deck Name Here"]
1*Card Name
2*Card Name
3*Card Name
4*Card Name


=

"Insert Deck Name Here"

1 x *Card Name
2 x *Card Name
3 x *Card Name
4 x *Card Name

buddhajew92 wrote:

That's not Control, it's a full-on Martyr deck.

Again, it's more of a Martyr deck.

Neither of these decks run a single Counter or any of Control's draw spells/engines (Except Aeon Chronicler / Jace , but those are widely played in Martyr decks as well.) The only thing that makes it anything like Control is that it plays removal and splashes for Blue. (Though the second list could arguably be called U/W Control. And by arguably, I mean that people vying for this Archetype t ostay in DtB will use this as an example, though it holds little to no similarity to any other decklist in the thread.)

I think to be perfectly honest that the meaning of UW Control has evolved over the past couple of months, especially with the changes to the metagame. The way I have seen this archetype going is that it has become more and more of a board control style deck, utilising answers to threats rather than countering threats before they even enter the field. I understand where you're coming from in that it is a different style to that has been existent for some time but I think it would be wrong to separate this as a distinct because it's not. It's UW Control (Wu if you want to be really particular judging by mine) and it has the same principle as that of any control deck in the past: to use its life (however bloated it may become with Martyr ) as a resource in order to gain control of the game for its own threats to win with.

That's exactly how my deck worked at my Champs to good success and I think that is the defining factor of these decks: how effective they are at exerting control of the game through whatever means at their disposal.

Aldwyn wrote:

I think to be perfectly honest that the meaning of UW Control has evolved over the past couple of months, especially with the changes to the metagame. The way I have seen this archetype going is that it has become more and more of a board control style deck, utilising answers to threats rather than countering threats before they even enter the field. I understand where you're coming from in that it is a different style to that has been existent for some time but I think it would be wrong to separate this as a distinct because it's not. It's UW Control (Wu if you want to be really particular judging by mine) and it has the same principle as that of any control deck in the past: to use its life (however bloated it may become with Martyr ) as a resource in order to gain control of the game for its own threats to win with.

That's exactly how my deck worked at my Champs to good success and I think that is the defining factor of these decks: how effective they are at exerting control of the game through whatever means at their disposal.

I disagree. CounterMesa and ProclaMartyr are indeed two UW control decks, yet they play completely different games. And if you think that ProclaMartyr just beats CounterMesa every day of the year, you're wrong. They have different purposes, and I'm not sure anything good could come from melting two such specialized decks into one.

Momo wrote:

I disagree. CounterMesa and ProclaMartyr are indeed two UW control decks, yet they play completely different games. And if you think that ProclaMartyr just beats CounterMesa every day of the year, you're wrong. They have different purposes, and I'm not sure anything good could come from melting two such specialized decks into one.

Having had no real experience of ProclaMartyr, I cannot deny that they might play fundamentally different games. However, what I was getting at was that the UW Control decks that I have seen and tested with for the most part recently have the same principle behind them and that is to gain control using whatever answers it has at its disposal. I'm not trying to say that one particular choice (to take your examples CounterMesa and ProclaMartyr) has an advantage over another, my point was more that UW shouldn't be overtly separated and specialized into distinct threads simply because they have the same principle of winning the game at heart.

Maybe I'm wrong on this and I'm missing a bit of the logic but this is how I've come to see how UW Control decks parallel. I'm open to debating this simply because it helps me learn anyways.

Aldwyn wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong on this and I'm missing a bit of the logic but this is how I've come to see how UW Control decks parallel. I'm open to debating this simply because it helps me learn anyways.

Honestly, the biggest difference between ProclaMartyr and CounterMesa is that the first is a primarily deck that looks to for support against CTRL, while the latter is a primarily deck that looks to for support against aggro. They do have many similarities, but this difference fundamentally alters how each deck plays; CounterMesa decks tend to rely on countermagic to protect themselves, using WoG & Co. to cleanup whatever gets through, while ProclaMartyr decks rarely, if ever, use countermagic (Remand was played when it was around, and NassifTron used Spell Burst to tie up the late-game), and instead rely on 's aggro-stopping power as its primary means of controlling the game.

midgit_ wrote:

you guys brushed of that flores list to quickly

Not really - I think it was respected. And having played Lorwyn tonight for the first time on MTGO, it is really a fun deck to play, too (and more fun, I expect, after I learn how to play it better).

Beat Pickles and a Countermesa build, but lost G2 & G3 to an deck with lots of LD (*and* artifact destruction ). That was annoying - 30 mana sources and I was still screwed in consecutive games.

"UW Midrange Control"

// 30 x mana sources
6 x *Snow-Covered Island
6 x *Snow-Covered Plains
4 x *Boreal Shelf
4 x *Scrying Sheets
4 x *Mouth of Ronom
4 x *Coldsteel Heart
2 x *Mind Stone
// 21 x creatures
4 x *Epochrasite
2 x *Venser, Shaper Savant
3 x *Sower of Temptation
3 x *Mulldrifter
3 x *Adarkar Valkyrie
3 x *Purity
// 9 x spells
4 x *Momentary Blink
3 x *Cryptic Command
2 x *Perilous Research
// sideboard (a bit improved, maybe)
3 x *Pull From Eternity
3 x *Twincast
2 x *Stonecloaker
2 x *Vesuvan Shapeshifter
3 x *Austere Command
2 x *Take Possession


I thought about maybe Psionic Blast in the sideboard - nice with Purity , and it seems to fit in with the deck's more aggressive middle game, while doubling as better Instant-speed removal than Crib Swap , in some cases.

KKEYSER4063 wrote:

Honestly, the biggest difference between ProclaMartyr and CounterMesa is that the first is a primarily deck that looks to for support against CTRL, while the latter is a primarily deck that looks to for support against aggro. They do have many similarities, but this difference fundamentally alters how each deck plays; CounterMesa decks tend to rely on countermagic to protect themselves, using WoG & Co. to cleanup whatever gets through, while ProclaMartyr decks rarely, if ever, use countermagic (Remand was played when it was around, and NassifTron used Spell Burst to tie up the late-game), and instead rely on 's aggro-stopping power as its primary means of controlling the game.

Thanks for the explanation.

It still seems to me though that they do play the same plan in an abstract sense. Like I said, decks may have fundamentally different styles due to the types of cards they play and certainly merit different names as such, it's just that when we get down to it they are both UW Control. That's what I'm really getting at because I don't think they should be so distinguished for the current/future metagame right now simply because there isn't enough of a difference between decks like mine and a more permission based deck.

The engine may be different in these decks, but the intent and purpose is the same.

Hi guys! This is my first time posting here, so go easy on me please

So far I have the following as a base for a U/W control deck. It's by no means a complete list, but it's the foundation I have for it. It's basically the pool of cards that I have to play around with at the moment, but can be expanded if the cards aren't THAT expensive money wise.

4x Rune Snag
4x Faerie Trickery
4x Wrath of God
4x Condemn
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Porphyry Nodes
4x Momentary Blink
4x Foresee

4x Mulldrifter
3x Purity
3x Sacred Mesa
2x Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Epochrasite
2x Draining Whelk

Now I don't have the money to be forking out on Akroma and the likes, and equally, I can't afford too many expensive lands.

Any thoughts on MD and SB, and obviously a mana base?

So I've played about 15 matches in the tournament practice room on MTGO since Lorwyn became legal on Monday, and I haven't seen a single deck that even remotely resembles aggro.

All but two matches were against decks with heavy . One of the exceptions was a mid-range deck with Crovax, Ascendant Hero , Martyr and Sacred Mesa . The other was an Dragonstorm (seriously) variant with lots of Green accel, Grinning Ignus , and Wild Pair .

Not one Tarmogoyf , not one Troll Ascetic , not a single Mogg Fanatic or Greater Gargadon .



The only recognizable archetypes I ran into more than once were Pickles and Mannequin.dec.

Here goes my version...suggestions? im more built to beat agro than anything else...since this is what I had planned on playing at Champs. That didnt happen because I couldn't come up with the Nimbus Mazes or the Faerie Trickery's.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Calciform Pools
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Urza's Factory
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Nimbus Maze
5 Plains
5 Island

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Triskelavus
2 AEon Chronicler
2 Remove Soul
2 Think Twice
2 Ponder (may up this to three, its just so good..i'd drop Trisk to the board for long mirrors so I can deck them)
3 Rule of Law
3 Martyr of Sands
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Spell burst
3 faerie trickery
4 wrath of god
4 rune snag
4 delay

sideboard (tentative, would change based on the metagame...this is what I was hoping to play at states but I didnt have the Mazes or Trickery's for mainboard)

3 Condemn
2 story circle
3 disenchant
4 flashfreeze
3 pithing needle

I posted a semi-computerized analysis of the US/Canada Champs Top-8 decks in the DtB maintenance thread.

Control made a respectable, but hardly dominant, showing with 10 T8 (plus 5 Martyr-focused builds and many Blink/Tempo and Pickles decks). Most had a "normal" complement of counterspells. The highest finish was 2nd place. 6 out of 10 had planeswalkers. None of the 10 used the Scrying Sheets engine, which is surprising - it is everywhere on MTGO.

In terms of T8 finishes, we are about the same as Korlash and all Martyr variants. Teachings had about as many T8 as us, Korlash and Martyr combined. Welcome to Tier 1.5...

Pending possible creation of a new thread, here are the decks:

"Solomon Carlson - South Dakota, 2nd Place" Show

"Nathan Herkimer - Utah, 4th Place" Show

This one is arguably the most creative. Some very interesting sideboard tech...

"Don Goldin - Massachusetts, 5th place" Show

"Tommy Arnold - Indiana, 5th place" Show

"New Hampshire, 5th place" Show

"Daniel Lee Hays - Wyoming, 6th place" Show

"Mike Rowe - Newfoundland, 6th place" Show

"John Preskitt - Wyoming, 7th place" Show

"Patrick Vicini - Louisiana, 8th place" Show

"Adam Stickney - Maine, 8th place" Show