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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 9:49AM #21
Avedomni
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Ahlyis]Rule 100.2 is all fine and dandy, but it has no real effect, unless you are claiming that the Rules of the game are able to affect the game before it even starts!


The rules of any game apply to all aspects of the game, including set-up.

The only issue we have with Relentless Rats is that the ability looks like a static ability not covered by 402.8, which seems to imply that it should only "work" while the Rats are i wrote:

Rule 100.2 is all fine and dandy, but it has no real effect, unless you are claiming that the Rules of the game are able to affect the game before it even starts![/quote]
The rules of any game apply to all aspects of the game, including set-up.

The only issue we have with Relentless Rats is that the ability looks like a static ability not covered by 402.8, which seems to imply that it should only "work" while the Rats are in play.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 9:52AM #22
Ahlyis
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EyeHunter wrote:

Please tell me more...


Basically, it comes down to Relentless Rats ability is a static ability. Static abilities are meaningless outside of the game. The deck check is done BEFORE the game actually starts (as indicated by 101.1). At the time the deck check is done, Relentless Rats ability doesn't exist.

While it's fine for a card to overrule a rule when it directly conflicts with it. You do have to be playing a game of Magic for it to happen. An ability of a card can't affect another game (un-cards excepted), it can't affect a game that has already ended and it can't affect a game that hasn't even started yet. Relentless Rats ability, in order to function, would have to function before the game even starts.

I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 10:32AM #23
Budget_Player_Cadet
Budget_Player_Cadet
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2008
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EyeHunter wrote:

Why aren't you autocarding? I know you know how to.


I don't... Know... Why....

Hm. In any case, I asked this mostly because it interests me, but partly because I just want to build a few decks that annoys the hell out of the judge. He still owes me money.

www.kherkeep.com

Seriously-it's good ****. Everyone cool is here.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 10:45AM #24
cyphern
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Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
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but partly because I just want to build a few decks that annoys the hell out of the judge. He still owes me money.


Oh god, i can see it now. Firestorm Phoenix attacking along a Raging River , backed up with your Jandor's Ring / Chains of Mephistopheles / Word of Command card drawing engine. Oh, and don't forget the Darksteel Citadel which you enchant with Equinox , then Leech bonder a Mire Counter onto . Then, you target Darksteel Citadel and 2 non-land permanents with Wild Swing and attempt to counter it with Equinox.

Let me know how that works out for you.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 11:43AM #25
jeff-heikkinen
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Ahlyis wrote:

Rule 100.2 is all fine and dandy, but it has no real effect, unless you are claiming that the Rules of the game are able to affect the game before it even starts!


You talk like there was something mysterious about that. The rules of nearly every game I know discuss things like how to set the game up, and no-one bats an eye; why would this be any different?

Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 12:27PM #26
Condor
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Date Joined: Mar 22, 2001
Posts: 822

Ahlyis wrote:

The deck check is done BEFORE the game actually starts (as indicated by 101.1).


Ummm.... show me where it is so indicated:
[INDENT]101.1. At the start of a game, each player shuffles his or her deck so that the cards are in a random order. Each player may then shuffle his or her opponents' decks. The players' decks become their libraries.[/INDENT]
Where is this mysterious "deck check" that you speak of, and how does this rule which begins "At the start of a game..." describe anything happening "BEFORE the game actually starts" ?

While it's fine for a card to overrule a rule when it directly conflicts with it. You do have to be playing a game of Magic for it to happen.


And you don't consider that act of starting a game to be part of the game? How do you start one, then? It can't be by following the rules of the game, since it isn't a game yet. In fact, nothing except the rules that apply to "a game" say anything about how to start one.

[sarcasm mode off]

Really, you are being just a little pedantic here. You don't like how it fits in the process. I can understand that. But you are making many unfounded claims trying to back it up.

Relentless Rats ability, in order to function, would have to function before the game even starts.


Any time the rule-of-four would have any meaning has to be considered part of a game; otherwise that rule has no meaning. Relentless Rats modifies that rule, and does so at a time that has to be considered part of the game. I agree it isn't spelled out completely, but there is no need. It works fine.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:00PM #27
Ahlyis
Ahlyis
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Whatever. Believe what you want.

I didn't come up with this. It was brought up a long time ago and the original discoverer was given a nod for it in the last Stump the Judge contest on this forum without them even having to submit it.

So go ahead. Say what you want. If I haven't explained it clearly enough, fine. I really don't care. This thread isn't about Relentless Rats. It's about all things that cause Rules issues. Relentless Rats is merely one of them.

I'm done with this.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:08PM #28
Lemt
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Date Joined: Sep 1, 2007
Posts: 4,398
I'd say Ahlyis is right. When the DCI floor rules would check your deck's legality, a Relentless Rats deck wouldn't meet the requirements. DCI floor rules are independent of any M:tG rulings.

But whatever. Until I find a judge that tries to stop a player from playing that deck, I won't bother with this issue.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:16PM #29
cyphern
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
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If I haven't explained it clearly enough, fine.


Actually, i thought you explained it quite well.

ahlyis]Basically, it comes down to Relentless Rats ability is a static ability. ... Relentless Rats ability, in order to function, would have to function before the game even starts.


To those of you bashing on ahlyis, his point is not that the rules have no effect before the start of the game, his point is that static abilities have no effect before the start of the game. Sure, relentless rats' ability is allowed to override rules (as is any ability for which 103.1 is applicable), but nothing about Relentless Rats ability allows it to function anywhere other than in play, since it does not fall under any of the exceptions in 402.8.
rulebook quotes Show

100.2. In constructed play, each player needs his or her own deck of at least sixty cards, small items to represent any tokens and counters, and some way to clearly track life totals. A constructed deck can have any number of basic land cards and no more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic land cards.

103.1. Whenever a card’ wrote:

Basically, it comes down to Relentless Rats ability is a static ability. ... Relentless Rats ability, in order to function, would have to function before the game even starts.[/quote]
To those of you bashing on ahlyis, his point is not that the rules have no effect before the start of the game, his point is that static abilities have no effect before the start of the game. Sure, relentless rats' ability is allowed to override rules (as is any ability for which 103.1 is applicable), but nothing about Relentless Rats ability allows it to function anywhere other than in play, since it does not fall under any of the exceptions in 402.8.
rulebook quotes Show

100.2. In constructed play, each player needs his or her own deck of at least sixty cards, small items to represent any tokens and counters, and some way to clearly track life totals. A constructed deck can have any number of basic land cards and no more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic land cards.

103.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 102.3a).

402.8. Abilities of an instant or sorcery usually function only while the object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is in play. The exceptions are as follows:

402.8a Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. (See rule 405.2.)

402.8b An ability that states which zones it functions in functions only from those zones.

402.8c An ability of an object that modifies what it costs to play functions on the stack.

402.8d An object’s ability that restricts or modifies how that object can be played functions in any zone from which it could be played.

402.8e An object’s ability that modifies how it comes into play functions as that object is coming into play. See rule 419.6i.

402.8f An object’s activated ability that has a cost that can’t be paid while the object is in play functions from any zone in which its cost can be paid.

402.8g A trigger condition that can trigger only in a zone other than the in-play zone triggers from that zone. Other trigger conditions of the same triggered ability may function in different zones.
Example: Absolver Thrull has the ability “When Absolver Thrull comes into play or the creature it haunts is put into a graveyard, destroy target enchantment.” The first trigger condition triggers from the in-play zone and the second trigger condition functions from the removed-from-the-game zone. (See rule 502.51, “Haunt.”

402.8h An ability whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it’s on out of a particular zone functions only in that zone, unless that ability’s trigger condition, or a previous part of that ability’s cost or effect, specifies that the object is put into that zone.
[indent]Example: Necrosavant says “{3}{B}{B}, Sacrifice a creature: Return Necrosavant from your graveyard to play. Play this ability only during your upkeep.” A player may play this ability only if Necrosavant is in his or her graveyard.[/indent]

Relentless rats does directly contradict 100.2. It does not directly contradict 402.8.

EDIT: 'course, it would be fairly simple to make it work (albeit a bit strange for one card). Either add the phrase "This ability functions during deck construction" (causing it to directly contradict 402.8), or add another exception along the lines of "402.6i An ability that modifies deck construction rules functions during deck construction."
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:27PM #30
Ahlyis
Ahlyis
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I'm sorry. I lied. Apparently I'm not quite done yet. :P

I've been trying to remember exactly what the issue was and I think Lemt nailed it. In any Sanctioned event, deck checks are done prior to the match starting, let alone any individual game.

In fact, here's what I believe is the relevant rule from the DCI Floor Rules for MtG:

120. RULES FOR CONSTRUCTED TOURNAMENTS

121. Deck Size Limits
Constructed decks must contain a minimum of sixty cards. There is no maximum deck size; however, players must be able to sufficiently randomize their deck within the time allotted.

With the exception of basic land cards, a player’s combined deck and sideboard may not contain more than four of any individual card, counted by its English card title. All cards named Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest are basic. (The five basic snow lands, also known as “Snow-Covered lands”—Snow-Covered Plains, Snow-Covered Island, Snow-Covered Swamp, Snow-Covered Mountain, and Snow-Covered Forest—are also basic lands. Note that basic snow lands, also known as “Snow-Covered lands” lands are permitted only in formats that allow the Ice Age™, Alliances™, and/or Coldsnap™ sets.)


How is Relentless Rats ability able to override that Rule? Even if you claim that the "game" has started and Relentless Rats abilities are able to override the Comp Rules, I still don't see how you get it to override the DCI Floor Rules. There's no provision in the DCI Floor Rules for cards outranking the rules like 103.1 in the MtG Comp Rules.

I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
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