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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 12:33PM #1
Budget_Player_Cadet
Date Joined: Feb 22, 2008
Posts: 4,292
Which cards have caused the most rules issues? I'm thinking probably either eye or teh annoying. Not to mention teh new annoying
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 12:46PM #2
zammm
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003
Posts: 27,371
That depends on exactly what you define "rules issues" as. Do you mean player confusion, or actual rules problems? Book Burning caused a ton of confusion, but there's no actual rules problem to speak of with it. Humility has warped and shaped the development of the layering rules around it, true, but most of the problems with it were things most players didn't encounter.

One of the frontrunners for outright rules issues is generally Word of Command .
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 1:03PM #3
orcishartillery
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2003
Posts: 1,269
I'll mention the Licids . I seem to recall Wizards R&D jokingly denying the existence of the Licids because of the rules issues they cause.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 1:14PM #4
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 17,752
In a similar vein to Word of Command, which has to be bent and warped to fit into a set of rules that really arent meant to support what it tries to do, i would like to add Chaos Orb and Falling Star , which are the only cards to be banned in Vintage for simply not being able to fit into the rules. (Ante cards are banned not because they wouldnt work, but because ante is no longer used in the game; Shahrazad is banned because in a world with finite time limits for tournament rounds, it simply causes games to take to long.)

If you're talking about what cards tend to show up frequently on these forums, no card really sticks out in my mind as showing up a lot, though there will tend to be a few that get asked about frequently immediately after a set's release. Nacatl War-Pride got asked about frequently after Planar Chaos's release for example. Reveillark / Body Double got asked about alot following Morningtide's release. Theres even an FAQ post to answer specific card questions that have come up a lot.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 1:55PM #5
adeyke
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Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
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There are really a lot of different categories possible.

Some cards generate a lot of questions even though there shouldn't be anything confusing about them. Bond of Agony is a prime example of this. The in the mana cost works just like the in any other mana cost, but many people still ask questions about it, thinking they can just ignore that .

Some cards have historically caused rules problems but now work consistently, though the involved rules may be complicated. Humility is a good example of that. Thanks to layers, we can figure out the exact game state if we know what effects are involved and what their relative time stamps are. It just might take some effort and might be a bit unintuitive. Prior to layers, though, it was a real mess.

Some cards simply didn't work at all until they noticed it and issued errata. Purity , for example, couldn't work since abilities never deal damage ( Prodigal Pyromancer 's ability causes the creature to deal the damage). Void Maw and Uba Mask didn't work since they were making other things remove cards from the game; they weren't themselves removing anything. So those cards did have rules issues, but the rules issues have since been fixed with errata.

Some cards are trying to do something they shouldn't. This applies to older cards, mostly. In those cases, trying to give them sensible Oracle texts is impossible, since the underlying concepts are problematic. This often leads to rather convoluted Oracle texts and/or very unintuitive rulings. Some examples of this were already given in this thread. Raging River , Chains of Mephistopheles , Firestorm Phoenix , Imprison , Jandor's Ring , Ice Cauldron and Equinox could all fall into this category, in one way or another. We don't get a lot of questions about these, but it's mainly because they're old and not used a lot.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 1:58PM #6
CarstenHaese
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adeyke wrote:

Some cards simply didn't work at all until they noticed it and issued errata. Vigor , for example, couldn't work since abilities never deal damage


I think you mean Purity , not Vigor.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 2:05PM #7
adeyke
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Date Joined: Feb 24, 2007
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Indeed. I was checking my autocard links after I posted but missed that one. Sorry about the confusion.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 2:23PM #8
jeff-heikkinen
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adeyke wrote:

Some cards are trying to do something they shouldn't. This applies to older cards, mostly. In those cases, trying to give them sensible Oracle texts is impossible, since the underlying concepts are problematic. This often leads to rather convoluted Oracle texts and/or very unintuitive rulings. Some examples of this were already given in this thread. Raging River , Chains of Mephistopheles , Firestorm Phoenix , Imprison , Jandor's Ring , Ice Cauldron and Equinox could all fall into this category, in one way or another. We don't get a lot of questions about these, but it's mainly because they're old and not used a lot.


Chains, uniquely among those cards, actually does show up here fairly regularly. Happily, that has the side-effect of giving it a well-understood body of "case law", as it were; it even shows up in the FAQ.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 3:21PM #9
Merestil_Haye
Date Joined: Aug 6, 2003
Posts: 4,171
The layer system managed to sort out most of the Humility questions. Even Humility plus two Opalescence is reasonably easy to analyse.

My current least favourites are Life and Limb or a combination of Titania's Song and Mycosynth Lattice . Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in combination with subtype-setting effects are also not immediately intuitive.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 3:32PM #10
Ahlyis
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Date Joined: Aug 1, 2003
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I'd like to throw in Relentless Rats which flat out doesn't work. Of course, we all politely ignore that fact and pretend that it does. Besides, short of re-writing both the Rules (DCI and Comp) and the card to make it work, it's never going to actually work.

It has a Static ability which might be able to override the Comp Rules, but Deck legality checks are part of the DCI Floor Rules, not the Comp Rules, and the Rats' ability has no jurisdiction there. It would probably need to be given the Basic Supertype and have the DCI Floor Rules modified in order for it to work correctly. But as I said, we all pretend that it actually works as is and we don't actually get many (any) questions about it.

Still, of all the cards out there, it's the only one I can think of that technically doesn't work, never has worked and probably never will work.
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