ok so Time Spiral and Coldsnap shift together i get that but when will it happen cause i dont wanna buy coldsnap/time spiral singles if they just gunna go out of type 2 right away. you know what i mean? also thanks for the help guys i posted on like 3 other forums no answers lol.
ok so Time Spiral and Coldsnap shift together i get that but when will it happen cause i dont wanna buy coldsnap/time spiral singles if they just gunna go out of type 2 right away. you know what i mean? also thanks for the help guys i posted on like 3 other forums no answers lol.
Time Spiral Block and Coldsnap will rotate out of Standard (NOT EXTENDED!) when Shard of Alara rotates in, so October 2008.
Overall, I didn't place very high, and for the most part because I hadn't play-tested the decklist enough beforehand. Most of my losses were due to lousy, non-regrettable mistakes, which cost me several games. So, with that said, I'm not going to write a lengthy report on all of my matches, because for the most part, I know what my weaknesses were. However, I do need some assistance with things, and like always, any other critique is welcome!
First, like everyone is realizing, Bitterblossom is necessary in nearly every build as a 3 or 4-of, at least in the Sideboard. However, the reason for not running them last night, is that I haven't gotten my hands on a playset yet, but hopefully by next Friday, I'll have 4x. The problem I have is finding room in my deck for 'em. It seems that the general consensus is to run Bitterblossom over Ohran Viper for Card Advantage, yet I disagree. Although Ohran Viper dies easily to most removal, and is a lot less effective without a Doran in play, once it gets through, it's effect is fantastic, even for just one turn.
Secondly, after trying them out, I agree with Jiaozy about not running Gemstone Mine . It's mandatory effect of removing a counter every time it taps for mana, eventually, really negatively impacts your play choice. A simple situation of playing a Garruk , removing the last counter from Gemstone Mine , and the next turn not being able to play a Colossus , or something just as crucial, is a valid reason not to run any. If it tapped for without removing a counter, then I could understand it's inclusion.
On the topic of MrIndigo's opinions on having too many 1-drops with a mana base full of Murmuring Bosk 's and Gilt-Leaf Palace 's, I never had an issue in any of the games I played. Like others have been saying, the most important turns are the first four or five, and during that time, you typically have a hand with at least 1 or 2 'Elves' or 'Treefolk' allowing for the Bosk 's and Palace 's to CiP untapped. In my deck, I run 11 1-drops, 4x of both Bosk 's and Palace 's, and 3x Village 's, and I consistanly have an opening hand of 1 or 2 1-drops, a Bosk or a Palace , and some sort of 'Elf' or 'Treefolk' for revealing purposes. In conclusion, I didn't have any previously addressed problems with the mana base, but did have another issue. A few of my games, I'd have a hand without very much land, or would top deck one for 4 turns in a row, both of which were very aggravating. Most likely, I was just getting unlucky. But, should I up the land count to 24, or would that be a bad decission? I really cannot decide, and any help would be appreciated.
Again, any other comments, critiques, and suggestions are welcome!
Overall, I didn't place very high, and for the most part because I hadn't play-tested the decklist enough beforehand. Most of my losses were due to lousy, non-regrettable mistakes, which cost me several games. So, with that said, I'm not going to write a lengthy report on all of my matches, because for the most part, I know what my weaknesses were. However, I do need some assistance with things, and like always, any other critique is welcome!
First, like everyone is realizing, Bitterblossom is necessary in nearly every build as a 3 or 4-of, at least in the Sideboard. However, the reason for not running them last night, is that I haven't gotten my hands on a playset yet, but hopefully by next Friday, I'll have 4x. The problem I have is finding room in my deck for 'em. It seems that the general consensus is to run Bitterblossom over Ohran Viper for Card Advantage, yet I disagree. Although Ohran Viper dies easily to most removal, and is a lot less effective without a Doran in play, once it gets through, it's effect is fantastic, even for just one turn.
Secondly, after trying them out, I agree with Jiaozy about not running Gemstone Mine . It's mandatory effect of removing a counter every time it taps for mana, eventually, really negatively impacts your play choice. A simple situation of playing a Garruk , removing the last counter from Gemstone Mine , and the next turn not being able to play a Colossus , or something just as crucial, is a valid reason not to run any. If it tapped for without removing a counter, then I could understand it's inclusion.
On the topic of MrIndigo's opinions on having too many 1-drops with a mana base full of Murmuring Bosk 's and Gilt-Leaf Palace 's, I never had an issue in any of the games I played. Like others have been saying, the most important turns are the first four or five, and during that time, you typically have a hand with at least 1 or 2 'Elves' or 'Treefolk' allowing for the Bosk 's and Palace 's to CiP untapped. In my deck, I run 11 1-drops, 4x of both Bosk 's and Palace 's, and 3x Village 's, and I consistanly have an opening hand of 1 or 2 1-drops, a Bosk or a Palace , and some sort of 'Elf' or 'Treefolk' for revealing purposes. In conclusion, I didn't have any previously addressed problems with the mana base, but did have another issue. A few of my games, I'd have a hand without very much land, or would top deck one for 4 turns in a row, both of which were very aggravating. Most likely, I was just getting unlucky. But, should I up the land count to 24, or would that be a bad decission? I really cannot decide, and any help would be appreciated.
Again, any other comments, critiques, and suggestions are welcome!
Thanks!
cellardore
First of all, why are you running a Plains? We only splash white, and I would probably be not pleased to draw this haha.
If you don't want to get rid of the Vipers, which honestly, I think you should at least consider cutting them to 2, you would replace either Thoughtseize or Shriekmaw with them. Perhaps -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Bitterblossom or -2Shriekmaw, -1 TS, -1 Ohran Viper, +4 Bitterblossom? Shriekmaw isn't the greatest MD with all the solid black creatures around. Also, you don't need 4 Bitterblossoms necessarily.
As for the Gemstone Mine scenario, it really wouldn't be a big deal after playing Garruk. Tap 2 lands to float 2 mana, use Garruks ability to untap those lands to float 2 more mana and play Colossus. Then you will be in overrun mode anyway.
In general, Gemstone Mine is fantastic and I find it ridiculous to say that they wreck anyone's land base. You have 3 entire turns in order to draw a replacement and you wouldn't necessarily have to use it 3 turns in a row. How would you not be able to do this on a fairly consistent basis running 23 lands? All the lands in our mana base have their drawbacks. Saying that Gemstone Mine is bad because you may need another land in order to play another 4 drop next turn isn't a valid argument because any of our lands could screw us. Say I play a Doran on turn 2 and then can't play Garruk right after because my 4th land is a Treetop Village, Gilt-Leaf Palace or Murmuring Bosk that can't come into play tapped? Just because this happens sometimes, does that make them bad to play? What if you can't draw into a white mana source? What if you are at 1 life and need to Obliviong Ring your Bitterblossom when all your lands that give you white deal you 1 damage? Is that a reason not to play them?
Gemstone Mine makes sure we have a land that: 1. Give us any color we need. 2. Does not come into play tapped at any point. 3. Feed Goyf 4. Don't do damage to us
It makes up for some of the bad aspects that our other lands provide. All the lands have their drawbacks and if you are consistently losing games because of Gemstone Mine then you probably are either keeping bad hands, have the worst luck ever, or are making unwise decisions.
First of all, why are you running a Plains? We only splash white, and I would probably be not pleased to draw this haha.
If you don't want to get rid of the Vipers, which honestly, I think you should at least consider cutting them to 2, you would replace either Thoughtseize or Shriekmaw with them. Perhaps -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Bitterblossom or -2Shriekmaw, -1 TS, -1 Ohran Viper, +4 Bitterblossom? Shriekmaw isn't the greatest MD with all the solid black creatures around. Also, you don't need 4 Bitterblossoms necessarily.
As for the Gemstone Mine scenario, it really wouldn't be a big deal after playing Garruk. Tap 2 lands to float 2 mana, use Garruks ability to untap those lands to float 2 more mana and play Colossus. Then you will be in overrun mode anyway.
In general, Gemstone Mine is fantastic and I find it ridiculous to say that they wreck anyone's land base. You have 3 entire turns in order to draw a replacement and you wouldn't necessarily have to use it 3 turns in a row. How would you not be able to do this on a fairly consistent basis running 23 lands? All the lands in our mana base have their drawbacks. Saying that Gemstone Mine is bad because you may need another land in order to play another 4 drop next turn isn't a valid argument because any of our lands could screw us. Say I play a Doran on turn 2 and then can't play Garruk right after because my 4th land is a Treetop Village, Gilt-Leaf Palace or Murmuring Bosk that can't come into play tapped? Just because this happens sometimes, does that make them bad to play? What if you can't draw into a white mana source? What if you are at 1 life and need to Obliviong Ring your Bitterblossom when all your lands that give you white deal you 1 damage? Is that a reason not to play them?
Gemstone Mine makes sure we have a land that: 1. Give us any color we need. 2. Does not come into play tapped at any point. 3. Feed Goyf 4. Don't do damage to us
It makes up for some of the bad aspects that our other lands provide. All the lands have their drawbacks and if you are consistently losing games because of Gemstone Mine then you probably are either keeping bad hands, have the worst luck ever, or are making unwise decisions.
I never said I was losing games to Gemstone Mine , nor did I make any such assumption that it "wrecks anyone's land base", nor did I say that it's bad because you need another land. {I'm just not sure where your coming from on those three points, but I don't mean to sound aggravated.}
Anyways, I'm still very undetermined to remove Ohran Viper 's. Could someone please explain why it's been rendered nearly useless in the deck? Is part of the reason that it isn't a very aggressive card on it's own, without evasion or anything? In my opinion, it seems to be an incredibly solid choice and although it's only a 1/3 when Doran 's out, it still has two amazing abilities.
With regards to Gemstone Mine 's, I'll continue testing them out in my deck, for you made a few very good points about it -
BassmanARW]Gemstone Mine makes sure we have a land that: 1. Give us any color we need. 2. Does not come into play tapped at any point. 3. Feed Goyf 4. Don't do damage to us
It makes up for some of the bad aspects that our other lands provide.
Until I get 'dem Bitterblossom 's, I'll go without worrying about what to remove for them.
BassmanARW - Could you please post your most recent list, as I'm curious about what your mana base is looking like, especially with regards to Gemstone Mine .
Lastly, any more comments and critiques are welcome on my aforementioned list.
Thanks aga wrote:
Gemstone Mine makes sure we have a land that: 1. Give us any color we need. 2. Does not come into play tapped at any point. 3. Feed Goyf 4. Don't do damage to us
It makes up for some of the bad aspects that our other lands provide.[/quote] Until I get 'dem Bitterblossom 's, I'll go without worrying about what to remove for them.
BassmanARW - Could you please post your most recent list, as I'm curious about what your mana base is looking like, especially with regards to Gemstone Mine .
Lastly, any more comments and critiques are welcome on my aforementioned list.
I never said I was losing games to Gemstone Mine , nor did I make any such assumption that it "wrecks anyone's land base", nor did I say that it's bad because you need another land. {I'm just not sure where your coming from on those three points, but I don't mean to sound aggravated.}
Anyways, I'm still very undetermined to remove Ohran Viper 's. Could someone please explain why it's been rendered nearly useless in the deck? Is part of the reason that it isn't a very aggressive card on it's own, without evasion or anything? In my opinion, it seems to be an incredibly solid choice and although it's only a 1/3 when Doran 's out, it still has two amazing abilities.
With regards to Gemstone Mine 's, I'll continue testing them out in my deck, for you made a few very good points about it -
Until I get 'dem Bitterblossom 's, I'll go without worrying about what to remove for them.
BassmanARW - Could you please post your most recent list, as I'm curious about what your mana base is looking like, especially with regards to Gemstone Mine .
Lastly, any more comments and critiques are welcome on my aforementioned list.
Thanks again!
The points about Gemstone Mine weren't specifically directed solely at you or what you said, but also to all the people who have a problem with Gemstone Mine. The quotage on you was more for the others things I mentioned, but also the Mine things since you said you agreed what was previously said about them being 'not so good' since they may be sacrificed. I apologize for anything that sounded condescending.
The problems with Viper are essentially... 1. So much removal = Viper not getting through. Decks that run Nameless Inversion, Shriekmaw, burn, etc, can safely use it on this since Doran and Colossus get past it. The toughness of 3 make it a HUGE target and the CA possibilities make it a bigger one. 2. Deathouch!!!...for what...? - Faeries fly over it or chump it with Bitterblossom if they don't counter, bounce, or kill it, Elves will gladly trade with beast token or vanquisher's 2 mana cost, any red deck burns it so it doesnt matter, Kithkin will trade with tricks, and Reveillark doesn't like it much, but it gains so much CA that a Doran might be worse for them to see anyway. 3. Lack of evasion = won't get through 4. Doesn't do damage without Doran - not a huge problem because the point is to gain CA or theoretically trade with a Gargadon in best case scenario, yet everything else in this deck seems like a house in comparison.
So basically the problem is that the CA will rarely come through and there are so many creatures with power of 3 and not enough creatures with huge toughness to make deathtouch worth it. In any deck, they can play something with a mana cost of 2 or less and kill your 3 mana Viper.
So on the land base, I run 3 Gemstone Mine. 4 of them seems like it could create more of a problem, but with 3, I never have problems. I only run 2 Villages because I dislike auto CIPT lands, they slow down the deck, and who has the mana to activate multiples? The loan basic Swamps are to ease my mind of the slight possibility that someone will play Magus of the Moon and then I will lay a swamp and invert it haha.
Some of my card choices are a bit...unorthodox? haha. The 2x MD Thoughtseize would probably raise eyebrows with some people as most consider it all or nothing, but honestly, I don't need the TS, but it is a nice late game play if I can draw one late. The breakdown of removal is quite mixed and matched as well. The reason for the breakdown? I really don't know honestly, except that I never have problems with it. I used to run Shriekmaw, but got tired of the black creatures. I used to run 4 Eyeblight's, but Elves was and still is my #1 problem. The biggest questions I have with my deck are the inclusion of Loxodon Warhammer (clear disynergy with Doran, theoretical balace with painlands and BB lifeloss, give Colossus and Doran a way over), and the Primal Commands. I have yet to draw either in any match I have played that mattered. I also am unsure as if the MD Primal Command is the way to go or not. I also run 2 Vipers. If I had a 4th Bitterblossom, I would replace 1 with that. As for the other, I'm not sure if I would run the loan Viper or add removal, but probably the latter.
I tried a SB of land destruction last time and it didn't work for me at all. Up against Reveillark - T2 Rain of Tears, they lay land, T3 Acid Moss, they lay land, game starts off at T4 like nothing has happened haha. We ended up drawing. I probably would have won, but not because of the LD. I hate time restrictions...
I have had a winning record with this for the past 4 constructed FNMs.
BassmanARW - Like I said, I'll just continue running 2x or 3x Gemstone Mine , and do some more testing with my list.
As for Ohran Viper , your main point that seems to be most significant, is the deathtouch ability. In truth, as you stated, with most possible scenarios your opponent will have some simple way of killing it, or blocking it, gladly having their 3/3 Beast token, or Vanquisher for example, die.
For your decklist, there are a few comments and suggestions I have. Your land base seems pretty solid and basic. Nothing too different than the usual, although I do advise a 3rd Horizon Canopy , for they're really fantastic! However, I do see a problem with the removal choices and general 'Other Spell' section. I would suggest something like this,
Now, for the reasons - Thoughtseize really is a card which you either go 4x, or none at all. It's too situational if you run less than 4x. When you want to Thoughtseize them, you'll most likely not have it when only running 2x. So, I moved them to the Sideboard, and replaced them with Primal Command , not necessarily permanent, but as an experiment. For most Top Eight decklists do run 2x Maindeck.
Next, what was the point of 1x Eyeblight's Ending ? It just seems so completely random! Anyways, I'd suggest 3x or 4x Profane Command . There is never a time that I've drawn one and not wanted to, or that it's become a dead draw. It's just too versatile to warrant not playing 3x, at least!
Also, on the topic of Loxodon Warhammer , I would choose not to run it all. It's quite a hassle to pay both it's cost, and then it's equipment cost, and usually gets O-Ring'd or destroyed before all that. In order for it to be effective, you'd need to play it Turn 3, drop another threat, like Colossus Turn 4, and then Turn 5 equip it, with little room to play another spell. It just seems to costly! Also, like you said, it clearly has dis-synergy with Doran , and the damage from Bitterblossom can always be taken care of with Oblivion Ring .
BassmanARW - Like I said, I'll just continue running 2x or 3x Gemstone Mine , and do some more testing with my list.
As for Ohran Viper , your main point that seems to be most significant, is the deathtouch ability. In truth, as you stated, with most possible scenarios your opponent will have some simple way of killing it, or blocking it, gladly having their 3/3 Beast token, or Vanquisher for example, die.
For your decklist, there are a few comments and suggestions I have. Your land base seems pretty solid and basic. Nothing too different than the usual, although I do advise a 3rd Horizon Canopy , for they're really fantastic! However, I do see a problem with the removal choices and general 'Other Spell' section. I would suggest something like this,
Now, for the reasons - Thoughtseize really is a card which you either go 4x, or none at all. It's too situational if you run less than 4x. When you want to Thoughtseize them, you'll most likely not have it when only running 2x. So, I moved them to the Sideboard, and replaced them with Primal Command , not necessarily permanent, but as an experiment. For most Top Eight decklists do run 2x Maindeck.
Next, what was the point of 1x Eyeblight's Ending ? It just seems so completely random! Anyways, I'd suggest 3x or 4x Profane Command . There is never a time that I've drawn one and not wanted to, or that it's become a dead draw. It's just too versatile to warrant not playing 3x, at least!
Also, on the topic of Loxodon Warhammer , I would choose not to run it all. It's quite a hassle to pay both it's cost, and then it's equipment cost, and usually gets O-Ring'd or destroyed before all that. In order for it to be effective, you'd need to play it Turn 3, drop another threat, like Colossus Turn 4, and then Turn 5 equip it, with little room to play another spell. It just seems to costly! Also, like you said, it clearly has dis-synergy with Doran , and the damage from Bitterblossom can always be taken care of with Oblivion Ring .
Yeah, you pretty much targeted in on the parts of my deck that I have no strong feelings for whatsoever haha. I used to run 4 Thoughtseize, but was never incredibly impressed. I cut it down to 3 and it made no difference. Cutting it down to 2 didn't really change much, although the idea of it hitting late game before playing something important seemed decent. I still think that it can be a 2 or 3 of, just like Profane Command. Despite this, I don't mind getting rid of it. The Loxodon Warhammer was a card I thought was the most ridiculous thing to ever put in here with Doran, but I eventually decided to give it a try since people were raving about them. Sadly, it never did a thing for me so that is definitely gone. The random Eyeblight's Ending could easily become another Profane or Inversion. Inversion will help the CIPT lands, but Profane will help with the bigger creatures as well as the other benefits of course. The only things I am worried about are huge beaters like Countryside Crusher. The Deathmarks can't save me there. Do you think I should make room in the sideboard for either Shriekmaw , Terror or more Oblivion Rings ? The Primal Command s with the 2 Oblivion Rings may be all the Crusher or Gargadon hate I need. Inside I felt like the cards you mentioned should be changed in some way before, but I think I just needed someone else to give me a wake up call haha. Thanks.
