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6/22/09 Feature: "Duels of the Planeswalkers: All about AI"
1 year ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 12:30PM #1
WotC_Jenkot
Posts: 50
Date Joined: 06/10/09
This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:11PM #2
Seeker_after_Chaos
Posts: 327
Date Joined: 08/31/05
From what limited playing-a-friend's-copy experience I had, the only problem existing is that the AI will never bluff.

You said it yourself, it'll beat if it has a Giant Growth in hand. But if it doesn't? It won't.

I mean, sure, it's better than Shandalar, where it will occasionally Growth YOUR guys... but yeah. I suppose the only effective way to do that would be either 1) do it totally at random some small percentage of the time, making the AI look dumb or 2) find some way to say "if you've done it once, do it again", but that doesn't solve the problem of having it make the first bluff.

And now I'll stop rambling.
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:16PM #3
Itoh
Posts: 1,163
Date Joined: 12/02/06
As long as it doesn't block time elemental it'll be an improvement
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:24PM #4
Tokwana
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Date Joined: 09/05/07
Remember forum browsers: the game starts on medium and needs adjusting to Planeswalker difficulty to be..well..difficult.
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:31PM #5
fractal
Posts: 1,775
Date Joined: 10/23/03

Seeker after Chaos wrote:

From what limited playing-a-friend's-copy experience I had, the only problem existing is that the AI will never bluff.

You said it yourself, it'll beat if it has a Giant Growth in hand. But if it doesn't? It won't.

I mean, sure, it's better than Shandalar, where it will occasionally Growth YOUR guys... but yeah. I suppose the only effective way to do that would be either 1) do it totally at random some small percentage of the time, making the AI look dumb or 2) find some way to say "if you've done it once, do it again", but that doesn't solve the problem of having it make the first bluff.


Well, if the game knows what cards exist in the format, then it could occasionally pretend that it has some other card in its colors when making a decision. I.E. 50% of the time, make decisions as though it had some random card in its hand. Most of the time, those cards won't change the optimal action. However, occasionally they will, which results in a "bluff".

Alternatively, the list of cards to pretend to have might be much shorter. For example, it could only pretend to have Instants, or there could simply be a list of cards to bluff about (Giant Growth, Cancel, Shock).

How to implement a bluff? Well, the game would just have to compare the possible game states where it pretends to have the card to the ones where it does not. Then it takes the ones it likes better (or possibly some mixed probability of the two). Of course, since it's playing against itself, it would also need some strategy other than always calling bluffs... I don't know if it has such a thing right now.

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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:35PM #6
Seeker_after_Chaos
Posts: 327
Date Joined: 08/31/05

fractal wrote:

Alternatively, the list of cards to pretend to have might be much shorter. For example, it could only pretend to have Instants, or there could simply be a list of cards to bluff about (Giant Growth, Cancel, Shock).


This is exactly what I was thinking of.

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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:39PM #7
SlimThrull
Posts: 84
Date Joined: 05/15/01
Meh, considering computers programmers have even made a computer play Go better than an intermediate human player, I highly doubt anyone is going to do a whole lot better with Magic.

However, having said that, I am rather impressed at some of the stuff they've come up with to get around the AI's shortcomings. Most likely we won't have human caliber AI for Magic for another 10-20 years. By then, we'll have enough sheer processing power to actually get stuff done in a decent time frame.
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 9:49PM #8
hozz101
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sent through a worm-hole from The Future⁚


did they actually trademark the future? Well done Wizards, world domination is yours.

I am Blue/Black
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 10:17PM #9
SnowFire
Posts: 32
Date Joined: 12/04/03
For more on what he was describing with decision trees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-beta_search
Not quite the same, as he describes the earlier optimizations for what moves to even bother examining, but close.

Interestingly, as an experienced—but decidedly amateur—Magic player myself, I've actually learned a few tricks from my own AI! One thing it's particularly good at is damaging its opponent's creatures by direct damage spells and abilities before it declares attackers. The opponent is then heavily restricted as to what they can block with, as the blockers will die. Because in the paper game, keeping track of damage on creatures is far from easy, this had simply never occurred to me.

Uh, it didn't occur to you because it's normally a bad idea?  Duels of the Planeswalkers has a Second Main Phase, right?  Zapping the creatures early gives more information to the blocker, which is bad.  (I assume you mean "damaging non-lethally" with the "keeping track of damage on creatures" comment, as obviously lethally killing potential blockers is quite good.)

* Blocker was going to let the damage through anyway: You wasted your non-lethal DD.
* Blocker was going to block no matter what: It's a push, the blockers die in each case.
* Blocker was going to block if he thought he could save his creatures: This is the big one.  The 4/4 blocks the 2/2, takes 2 damage, then you Shock it after combat.  Dead creature.  Shocking it beforehand just means that they let 2 damage through and still have a 4/4.   (You could have Shocked their head in this case anyway.)
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1 year ago  ::  Jun 21, 2009 - 10:31PM #10
EpicSeven
Posts: 10
Date Joined: 06/10/09

SnowFire wrote:

* Blocker was going to let the damage through anyway: You wasted your non-lethal DD.
* Blocker was going to block no matter what: It's a push, the blockers die in each case.
* Blocker was going to block if he thought he could save his creatures: This is the big one. The 4/4 blocks the 2/2, takes 2 damage, then you Shock it after combat. Dead creature. Shocking it beforehand just means that they let 2 damage through and still have a 4/4. (You could have Shocked their head in this case anyway.)


Haha, i like how you put that. It makes alot of sense. And yeah, i agree that using DD spells pre-combat is only worth while if they are lethal. I mean, if i had that 4/4 and you attacked with a 2/2, i probably wouldnt block if you had mana open. So if a player shocks my 4/4 and then attacks with the 2/2, i lost the same 2 life i would have lost anyways, and my opponent lost a burn spell.


although i did laugh when he said he chump blocked only to have elvish piper bring in the guy that lets em all trample.

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