Couple things. 'round here we still try to rock it old school, even though a lot of times we end up being wrong wrong wrong. So, a few technical inquiries --
Back in the day, it was taken for granted that you could wait for your opponent's discard phase, at which point, you could play fast effects that your opponent could not respond to, because on his discard phase all he could do was discard, while, you know, other people could play fast effects. This, then, was the phase where everyone tapped their Tim to do a point of damage, or used their Rod of Ruin , or played their Unsummon or Lightning Bolt , or did the ol' Icy Manipulator /Royal Assassin combo (yes, I'm from that long gone era of the ancients, when every red deck had 4 Lightning Bolts in it, when every black deck had a Demonic Tutor and a Royal Assassin and 4 Dark Ritual s, when Prodigal Sorcerer and Rod of Ruin were the only permanents that you could tap to do one point of damage to any target... good God, Magic was a simpler game back then).
So, lately, we're not sure if this is still the case, as, with The Stack, it would seem like there really is no point in anyone's turn where a fast effect could be played with impunity. Also, there is this one guy I play with who keeps trying to insist that "you can always back up one phase" -- in other words, if he draws a card and forgot to pay his echo cost, he can back up to his upkeep phase and do it. If you try to play a fast effect on his discard phase, he can always 'back up' to his main phase and play a response. Etc.
I don't think he's correct -- I'm pretty sure his idea that you 'can always back up one phase' comes from how a player is allowed to play a fast effect to tap or otherwise render inoperative a creature before the combat phase begins. This isn't actually 'backing up a phase', it is simply correcting a very frequent mistake players make when they simply tap creatures to attack, when instead, they should say "I am declaring an attack" and then wait for a response.
But, anyway -- can you still play fast effects on an opponent's discard phase, and, if you can, can your opponent respond to them? That's my first question.
Second, I recall that back in the day, token creatures were considered to go to the graveyard briefly, if only to trigger effects that had that sort of activation trigger. Is this still true? In other words, if I put Reins of the Vinesteed on a Citizen token, and my Citizen token gets whacked, do I get to return Reins of the Vinesteed to play on another critter, or does the Citizen token just kind of evaporate into the very ether and my Reins goes along with it?
Thanks to all and sundry for whatever help may be rendered to this foolish and unworthy one.
But, anyway -- can you still play fast effects on an opponent's discard phase, and, if you can, can your opponent respond to them? That's my first question.
No. First, there is no such thing as a discard phase; also "fast effects" is an obsolete term. There is an End of Turn step and a Clean-up Step. You discard in the Clean-up step. No one is normally allowed to play anything in the Clean-up step, your last chance is to play in the End of Turn step. Both players will be given an opportunity to respond to these spells and abilities.
Second, I recall that back in the day, token creatures were considered to go to the graveyard briefly, if only to trigger effects that had that sort of activation trigger. Is this still true? In other words, if I put Reins of the Vinesteed on a Citizen token, and my Citizen token gets whacked, do I get to return Reins of the Vinesteed to play on another critter, or does the Citizen token just kind of evaporate into the very ether and my Reins goes along with it?
Yes, tokens going to the graveyard do trigger any appropriate abilities prior to ceasing to exist.
Thanks to all and sundry for whatever help may be rendered to this foolish and unworthy one.
A
And the question about "backing up a phase", you are correct that that is not allowed. The Beginning of Combat thing is indeed because it was inappropriately skipped and you must allow your opponents to play things there. That is why it is backed up, because you didn't allow your opponents to play things and you cannot deny them that opportunity.
Ok, the rules have changed quite a bit from what you are describing, but i don't recall any time at which you could use an ability and have your opponent not be able to respond.
But, anyway -- can you still play fast effects on an opponent's discard phase, and, if you can, can your opponent respond to them? That's my first question.
A couple of things to clear up: The term "fast effect" is obsolete, and doesnt really have any meaning. Also, the Discard Phase does not exist.
The End Phase consists of two Steps: the End of Turn Step and the Cleanup step. 999 times out of 1000, if you want to play something at the end of someone's turn, you do it in the End of Turn Step.
End of turn step: Since it is not a main phase, no one can play Creatures, Artifacts, Lands, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers. Each player can play Instants, Activated abilities , and cards with Flash. Any time you play any spell or ability, each of your opponents gets a chance to respond with spells/abilities of their own (this is not unique to the end of turn step, it applies in all steps that you can play spells/abilities in)
Cleanup Step: Normally, no one gets a chance to play anything in this step. In the Cleanup Step, damage gets removed from creatures, things that last "until end of turn" end, and the active player discards down to his/her maximum hand size. If (and only if) something triggers during this step, then that triggered ability goes on the stack and each player gets a chance to respond to it.
Second, I recall that back in the day, token creatures were considered to go to the graveyard briefly, if only to trigger effects that had that sort of activation trigger. Is this still true?
Yes, that is still true. Token creatures, just like normal creatures, go to the graveyard. They then cease to exist shortly thereafter.
Also, there is this one guy I play with who keeps trying to insist that "you can always back up one phase" -- in other words, if he draws a card and forgot to pay his echo cost, he can back up to his upkeep phase and do it.
There is no way to "back up a phase". In casual play, you might let eachother retroactively pay for upkeep costs that slipped your mind, but this is a courtesy of playing with friends, not part of the rules of the game. In a tournament, it will not be allowed.
The short answer is that almost everything in the game must wait for both players before continuing. If a spell is on the stack, all players must say, in succession, "I pass without doing anything else" before that spell resolves. The same thing applies to activated and triggered abilities resolving, as well as moving from one phase/step to the next. You can't start combat until all players, in the main phase, say "Ok, I have nothing I want to play now", and you can't start declaring attackers until all players decide they don't want to play any spells/abilities, and so on. If you get to the end-of-turn step, the turn will not end until each player passes, including the active player. If you decide you want to play a flurry of spells/abilities at the end of your opponent's turn, he/she is free to respond with a flurry of his/her own. And once that flurry resolves, you're back to the same situation, where every player must once again say, in succession, that they choose not to play anything else.
As you can imagine, games would take forever if everyone had to formally announce "I pass" at the end of every step, and so a lot of it is just shortcutted in an actual game (you play a spell, pause for a moment, then it's usually safe to assume there is no response). And so often a player will start to do something, and then get interrupted by another player yelling "COUNTERSPELL" or something similar, and you need to informally "back up" the game in order to make sure everything happens in the proper order. But you can't REALLY back up the game that way, thus allowing you to draw a card first and THEN pay your upkeep costs. It just doesn't work that way. In your informal games it's probably more fun for everyone if you forgive little mistakes like that and not punish players too much for forgetfulness. But in a serious game where rules must be followed to the letter, there's no room for error. If you forget to pay an Echo cost before drawing a card, then sorry, your creature just got sacrificed (or sorry, you just lost the game ). You're free to play by house rules, like backing up the game for forgetfulness or because someone rushed ahead too fast, but just remember that no such rule exists in the rulebook, and if/when you get more serious with your games you'll get a bit more disciplined with those kinds of things.
Yes you can. Madness is one of the more common ways to get something to trigger in your cleanup step.
Okay. Thanks to everyone for their helpfulness, and for being pleasant, and for generally not being Feigel.
Another question -- let's say I use Madness during my cleanup step to play a spell that destroys target non-black creature (I know there is such a spell, I just can't remember the name of it right now). Would I be correct in assuming that my opponent could not respond to that effect in any way? He couldn't Unsummon his creature, or counter my spell, or give his creature Protection from Black, or any of that stuff?
This makes some Madness cards VERY effective, if true.
Would I be correct in assuming that my opponent could not respond to that effect in any way? He couldn't Unsummon his creature, or counter my spell, or give his creature Protection from Black, or any of that stuff?
You would be incorrect. In order for your spell to resolve, every player must "pass priority". Every player (including you) gets a chance to add more things to the stack, and only once no one wants to add anything more does the top spell or ability resolve.