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5/4/2009 MM: "Kind Acts of Randomness"
10 months ago  ::  Apr 30, 2009 - 5:03PM #1
WotC_Monty
Posts: 1,322
Date Joined: 11/05/03
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 9:21PM #2
Seeker_after_Chaos
Posts: 314
Date Joined: 08/31/05
Speaking as someone who played Skyclaw Thrash in Limited and winced every time he had to flip a coin to get a big beefy undercosted bomb of a flier?

Thanks, I guess. It's nice to know that you acknowledge that I hate coin flips and die rolls. It's half randomness and half that I sat down to play cards. These other menial actions distract me, because I'm not very good at Magic.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 9:45PM #3
Mudbuck
Posts: 54
Date Joined: 03/20/04
You might want to put "Not legal tender" on that dollar bill image. I heard a story about a grade school teacher who did a similar thing for class currency and got a visit from the government for it. Though, that was on actual paper.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 9:47PM #4
Parachnidox
Posts: 1
Date Joined: 11/19/08
Awhile back I was at a presentation by Richard Garfield and Shigeru Miyamoto(the creator of the Mario games), and halfway through the subject of randomness in games came up.

They both agreed that the most important reason they use randomness was not to create exciting moments, but to keep the stronger player from beating the weaker one 100 percent of the time, which would lead to the weak player getting frustrated and giving up on the game.

As it is, any two friends can pick up a deck of Magic with each having a reasonable chance of winning, so I suppose the occasional painful loss to a beginner is worth the convenience and health of the game.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 9:48PM #5
Amarsir
Posts: 1,618
Date Joined: 10/28/06
Great column. I remember a conversation with a friend a long time ago about games and specifically whether chess had randomness. We both agreed that it did.

Regarding randomness in Magic, I really think that part of the reason it comes off poorly is because so many of the cards are a bad bet. Wild Wurm is 5 mana to not have a 5/4. Even people who like flips should know better than to like that.

But then I suspect the answer to this is that it goes in the opposite direction. That Elvish Impersonator is balanced and they still didn't like it, and most cards are intentionally given a bad edge so that important games don't rely on that flip.

I recall that Frenetic Efreet was a card I enjoyed, even if the free activation and randomness were a turnoff to some. So yeah I'm sure upside vs downside plays a role, but EV in general has to be a consideration also.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 9:51PM #6
Dragon_Bloodthirsty
Posts: 267
Date Joined: 04/09/03
  • Warm, wet and squishy inside
I don't think the Chess example showed randomness at all, on further inspection.

I think the important point is that the player makes a choice; the player may not understand the consequences of his actions, but the player still definitively made a choice, and that choice was not random (the fact that the player fails to understand the factors determining the choice does not mean the choice was not deterministic).

One of the important things to know about humans is that, even (especially) when trying to be random, they fail miserably at it. Choosing "at random" from a set of multiple seemingly viable options does not make the decision random, no matter how hard the player tried to do so.

The bit about "who you are" and "who your opponent is" somewhat fails too. The tournament structure may have randomness in it, but the game itself does not. Even if you claim you have a "rock" player and a "paper" player, if a "rock" player were capable of playing a "scissors" game from a similar set of opening moves, then such a player would be favored tremendously. This fanciful "rock/scissors" player would have an advantage over both paper and scissors players.


As for the library being random, I say no it is not (the order is, but the contents are not). My library never contains a Chimney Imp unless I actually want to play with it. At best, it contains nothing but friends whom I enjoy doing different things with, and whenever I draw a card and say to myself "Oh I wish I hadn't drawn that", there is a simple solution: take the card out of the deck. Suddenly, the chance of me drawing the card are 0, and I am happy.

This fits in quite contrary to your claim that "the library is random". I have a "cycling" deck which contains nearly 30 land. Why do I like it at all? Because it is never, ever mana screwed. I could hypothetically be screwed, somehow, but having ~30 land plus eight land cycling cards tends to "un-randomize" that deck.

Furthermore, I have tremendous control over my decks. The fact that they are, like children, a little beyond my perfect control, doesn't bother me quite so much. Unlike children, I can willfully rip out any part of them and replace it however I like, with no consequences (trying this with children will at best lead to awkward questions).

I have to concede that the order in a Magic deck is a bit random. I wonder if one of the reasons I like weenie decks so much is that every card in my opening hand is one for the opening game?


Lastly, and I think you said this in your article, but what makes the game fun isn't the randomness, but the player's actions. One of the things I disliked about Cosmic Encounter (which I tried playing because it inspired a lot of the things in Magic) was how little control I actually had over myself.

Maybe the struggle is finding the randomness players are/were willing to accept, while cutting out the parts they are not.

P.S. I had a friend who delighted in Starcraft but refused to play Warcraft III because the damage in Warcraft III is random. Funny but true (though I think the variability could potentially be too high at times).
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 10:06PM #7
LulThyme
Posts: 203
Date Joined: 02/26/06
I was very disappointed in Mark's mini-article.

He was truly out of his depth and it was clear he doesn't know much about actual game theory (I mean in the technical sense, the mathematical discipline) or the ideas involved. More importantly he seemed to be unaware that he doesn't know (an "unkwown unknown", to paraphrase someone else). What I mean is he seemed to be unaware that there was something to know; that this is a discipline in its own right and that some people DO know these things. It felt a bit like he was writing a mini-article on his ideas regarding String Theory.



Here are some more specific comments:


The rock-paper-scissor analogy with chess is flawed. Chess HAS a perfect non-deterministic strategy, people just don't know what it is, because the game tree is too complex. In RPS, deterministic strategy are INHERENTLY sub-optimal. (same applies to choosing a deck in magic).

These games are fundamentally different in this respect. Think of Tic-Tac-Toe vs RPS for an easier to understand analogy. A player could easily play Tic-Tac-Toe perfectly and deterministically (most people can). You couldn't classify this player as a "scissor" (for example) since there is no rock to beat it. How is chess any different? From a game theory point of view (or even game design, if you wish), chess is just tic-tac-toe with a bigger game tree.


Even his last example with the hypothetical computer disappointed me slightly. The way he describes such a computer working : "Imagine you had a supercomputer that could look infinite turns ahead and rank every possible move by the number of outcomes which would lead to victory" shows that he is still in a "Magic" way of thinking. Now I don't necessarily expect him to be familiar with technical terms like alpha-beta pruning but the general idea can be understood but anyone who has ever thought about deterministic games of perfect information like Tic Tac Toe.

If you can work through the whole tree, "the number of outcomes which would lead to victory" is an irrelevant concept. There are winning moves and other moves. It's possible that a move has very few "outcomes that would lead to victory" yes is a winning move and vice versa.

There are other objections I would raise, but I think that's enough. Replacing chess by TTT through the article should make clear how silly some of the arguments are.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 10:11PM #8
Raemon
Posts: 2,633
Date Joined: 01/07/04
  • BCP5 Worldbuilding Lead
I for one am annoyed that people seem to dislike the dice cards. I made a custom set based around die rolling, and I thought it was great fun. The cards were designed to be slightly on the positive side and whenever one was used it created a moment of fun tension. (Way more fun than, say, Clash).

So it makes me sad that that set would be unprintable, because so many people have such an irrational dislike of dice in card games.

I'd also like to note that there may be a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy in the coinflip cards: Wizards intentionally avoids printing them at a good power level so they never dominate tournaments, yet that reinforces the stereotype that coin-flippers are "bad" cards and makes people dislike them even more.

That said, another random fact: I like die rolling and hate coin tossing. Yes, I realize people are more likely to have coins than dice, but flipping a coin requires dramatic effort to ensure a fair outcome and often the coin will bounce and land somewhere else (or I fail to catch it). Dice are designed so that you can drop them from only a few inches and they will bounce enough to be random. There is something genuinely enjoyable about rolling dice for me and coin-flipping is genuinely annoying. I may be unique in this regard.

I for one would like wizards to print a single card sometime that uses a d6 instead of a coin, is all upside, and is good enough that I don't have to feel embarrassed playing it.
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 10:23PM #9
Vesuva
Posts: 11
Date Joined: 01/25/09
Is that magic card shuffler real?

Where can I buy one sized for magic cards with sleeves on?

Seriously, shuffling is the thing that irritates me the most about magic these days. Especially as the optimum strategies involve lots of card selection and tutoring, resulting in more shuffling.

Props to the designers of cascade how the whole library doesn't need to be shuffled every time!
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10 months ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 10:29PM #10
Raemon
Posts: 2,633
Date Joined: 01/07/04
  • BCP5 Worldbuilding Lead
If you have an official Magic shuffler, does your deck even need to be sleeved? I find the worst offender in destroying unsleeved cards IS the shuffling process itself.
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