|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 1:05PM
#11
|
Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
|
I recind what i said earlier, and agree that the kicker should not apply.
It's admittedly confusing because the usual condition for this sort of thing being true (a zone change) has not occurred. My answer is based instead on the "Counter target spell" aspect. I would say I'm about 95% sure it's right.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 3:21PM
#12
|
Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2003
|
In the normal case, Ana Battlemage resolves and moves from the stack to in play, which triggers an ability that gets information from the object it used to be before it changed zones. (It uses LKI since that object no longer exists.) I can't see anything about this result that would be different if you replace the word "resolves" with "is countered by Desertion." Take a look at the definition of countered: "414.1. To counter a spell is to move the spell from the stack to its owner's graveyard. [...] Spells and abilities that are countered don't resolve and none of their effects occur." The first sentence is replaced by Desertion, so doesn't apply. The triggered ability of Ana Battlemage makes no reference to resolving, and a creature spell already has no effects, so the last sentence doesn't seem to have any bearing either. Is there something else special about being "countered" that would break the connection that this triggered ability uses when figuring out what spell object to refer to? I agree with the intuition that there should be, but I can't find it. A related question: if you counter your own Phage  with Desertion, do you lose the game? (This could come up if someone else targeted it with a [c]Last Word[c] first.) Again, the card's triggered ability makes no mention of resolving, just about whether it was played from your hand, which it was. Thanks for all the discussion so far. This came up in my casual group and I was disappointed to realize I didn't know what to rule. It's some comfort that other experts here aren't positive either  . Benoni, that was pretty good research for someone who only just found the CompRules... aside from a few pieces of terminology (and part of the answer being based on a faulty assumption) it looked like a veteran rules answer. I encourage you to keep reading the CompRules and helping people out by answering questions with that much detail!
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 3:25PM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2005
|
Oracle rulings on Desertion: 10/4/2004 The card is put into play, but any effects that check if the original card was "played from your hand" will not trigger or otherwise consider the card to have been played from your hand. The card was put into play by the effect of Desertion instead.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 3:29PM
#14
|
Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
|
Oracle rulings on Desertion:
Already mentioned in post #4. It doesn't settle the question by itself, because it doesn't directly address the situation on the table. However, I would have to say my answer looks to be much more in line with this reasoning than the alternative.
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 3:34PM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2005
|
It answers the question. Desertion != played from your hand.
No kicker. And Phage makes you lose.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 3:48PM
#16
|
Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2003
|
Yes, I saw the ruling, but I've learned not to trust 8-year old rulings[sup]*[/sup] without looking for the rules support. The CompRules have changed quite a bit since then, and in this case I can't find any reason why that ruling would be true today. Plus, I hate taking rulings at face value. Even if it is still true, why? What logic can I apply to similar situations so I don't have to seek out a new ruling each time? * Note that despite the 2004 date in Gatherer, that ruling actually dates to 1999: http://www.crystalkeep.com/cgi-bin/magi … =desertion
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 4:03PM
#17
|
|
|
Normally, I would have said it's a different object. You played the card as a Creature spell(with Kicker), but Desertion removed that object from the stack, then put that card into play as a "different" object.
I suspect that's going to be what the final ruling is. But I don't really see any support for that assertion either. From an aesthetics or flavor standpoint, it looks right. It's just that after reading through all of this, I don't think the actual rules clearly support that interpretation.
Otoh, as many of us know, the CR isn't really the last word on these things. What the Rules team decides is the correct interpretation is what becomes law, regardless of whether we all think the CR actually says something different.
This is a really interesting situation and I'm looking forward to hearing not just what the [O]fficial ruling is, but why it is too.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 7:54PM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2008
|
The rulings on Desertion  seem to be contradictory and dated the same. It says does not go to the gy, so it would be the same item as the one played from your hand. Though the ruling says it is not? Unless just the act of countering it changes it's zone. An interesting conundrum indeed
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 8:04PM
#19
|
Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2007
|
The rulings on Desertion seem to be contradictory and dated the same.
How so?
It says does not go to the gy, so it would be the same item as the one played from your hand. Though the ruling says it is not? Unless just the act of countering it changes it's zone. An interesting conundrum indeed
[indent]Counter target spell. If an artifact or creature spell is countered this way, put that card into play under your control instead of into its owner's graveyard.
Put into Play
If an effect instructs a player to put an object into play, [color=black]that object is not considered "played."[/color][/indent]
Also, [indent]217.1c [color=black]An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it.[/color] There are four exceptions to this rule: (1) Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of an artifact, creature, enchantment, or planeswalker spell on the stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates. (2) Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play") can find the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered. (3) Prevention effects that apply to damage from an artifact, creature, enchantment, or planeswalker spell on the stack will continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes. (4) Permanents that phase out or in "remember" their earlier states. See rule 217.8c.[/indent]
DCI L2 Judge Want AutoCard? Have FireFox? Click Here
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Mar 25, 2008 - 8:05PM
#20
|
|
|
The rulings on Desertion seem to be contradictory and dated the same.
It says does not go to the gy, so it would be the same item as the one played from your hand. Though the ruling says it is not? Unless just the act of countering it changes it's zone. An interesting conundrum indeed
The spell does not resolve. It is put directly into play under Desertion's controller's control. It is not the same card as was played.
|
|
|
