So I figured I'd make this ONE MASSIVE THREAD in the DtB as 'Fish' can be very flexible as an archetype, and many different variants have been successful in the past. First, let's start with a deck that is mostly credited to Dave Feinstein.
This is my personalized build. It is pretty close to a traditional Feinstein UWb fish build, but I think it has more tools for the current meta (i.e 4 Stifle). I think of it as being pretty optimal for UWb fish, but I'll try to find lists that have placed over the past couple months to post here as well. If any of you have links at TMD to show me I'd be very appreciative as sifting through all their stuff can take a long time.
Another Fun Variant of Fish that has done well at recent Vintage events is a deck coined "Pony Express" because it runs Ronom Unicorn and Kami Of Ancient Law as efficient answers to Oath that are also a body. "Pony Express was originally WG or WGb but I think the optimal build of such a deck would be WGu with blue only as a splash for Ancestral, Time Walk and Stifle. Here's my WGu "Pony Express" Variant. It is a deck that I think could be very well suited for the current Oath/Flash filled Meta. You are always free to add input on another variant of the deck that might be good. [FONT="Impact"]
I'm sorry I don't have more for you all than that right now, but I need to get things done today and I don't have the time to go in to more detail for now. Let the discussion begin while I find reports/decklists to add to this post as well as card choices + some matchup analysis.
So I figured I'd make this ONE MASSIVE THREAD in the DtB as 'Fish' can be very flexible as an archetype, and many different variants have been successful in the past. First, let's start with a deck that is mostly credited to Dave Feinstein.[FONT="Ari
I have now posted 4 different good variants of fish and not a single comment? Where are all the fish lovers out there because I KNOW you're out there ;-)
I have now posted 4 different good variants of fish and not a single comment? Where are all the fish lovers out there because I KNOW you're out there ;-)
I have now posted 4 different good variants of fish and not a single comment? Where are all the fish lovers out there because I KNOW you're out there ;-)
i cant seem to have that much fun playing hulk-flash so im thinking of probably playing with a UWb fish deck, with maindecked jitte(2) and sword of fire and ice(1) plusthe countertop combo..
is that good? ^_^ maybe you could give an idea of the list.. ^_^
i cant seem to have that much fun playing hulk-flash so im thinking of probably playing with a UWb fish deck, with maindecked jitte(2) and sword of fire and ice(1) plusthe countertop combo..is that good? ^_^ maybe you could give an idea of the list..
i cant seem to have that much fun playing hulk-flash so im thinking of probably playing with a UWb fish deck, with maindecked jitte(2) and sword of fire and ice(1) plusthe countertop combo..
is that good? ^_^ maybe you could give an idea of the list.. ^_^
D3sperado. I'm sorry, but honestly Vintage is not like other formats.
Countertop + Deck does not = Winner. In fact, I have yet to see a good Vintage deck that runs the Countertop Engine.
Next, Fish is about efficient answers. SoFI is NOT an efficient card unless you are running a card called Mishra's Workshop as well as a card called Ancient Tomb. a 3 CMC equipment that costs 2 to equip is just plain tooo slow for fish. I'd recommend looking at my UWb list at the top of the first post and starting from there. If you are a bit more daring you might try the pony express list at the bottom for inspiration as I really think that deck is better in the current Oath/Flash meta that exists in the Northeast. That is the fish deck I'd take to a tourney if I had to.
Also, I can't remember if you are the one who said you didn't like playing with proxied power, but let me just explain something philosophically here.
If you show up to a tourney where players are using power and you are not you are probably just plain going to lose every match. Is that FUN for either you or your opponent? I'd venture to say no. There is no shame in proxying power if the field is also doing so. I do it all the time because I don't ever want to spend that sort of money on 1 card.
If the field is unpowered then fine, don't play with power. But then you have to design a deck that would do well GIVEN THAT CARD POOL AVAILABILITY. That is a whole nother battle altogether.
Cheers!
-Storm
D3sperado. I'm sorry, but honestly Vintage is not like other formats.Countertop + Deck does not = Winner. In fact, I have yet to see a good Vintage deck that runs the Countertop Engine.Next, Fish is about efficient answers. SoFI is NOT an efficient c
but still, i honestly believe, not all decks with proxies (moxens) could hammer the hell out of decks that aren't running any.. maybe i'd run ancestral but thats about it..
its so fun (for me i guess) and challenging to muscle your way through the power of the proxied P9's and such.. still no offense to those who proxy and use the moxens.. but i think its a nice idea to build decks that push the limits without them.. ^_^ again.. peace.. ^^
thanks for the kind words my friend.. ^_^but still, i honestly believe, not all decks with proxies (moxens) could hammer the hell out of decks that aren't running any..maybe i'd run ancestral but thats about it..its so fun (for me i guess) and challe
its so fun (for me i guess) and challenging to muscle your way through the power of the proxied P9's and such..
It certainly will be challenging, but more fun can be had by playing with Power because it allows for more broken plays. Take this real example that happened to me earlier today:
I'm at 3, my opponent's at 6. He's tapped out with one card in hand and a summoning sick Goblin Welder . I EOT Mystical Tutor for Tinker with a board of all mana, including Mana Crypt . I win the flip during my upkeep and stay at 3. I draw Tinker for the turn. I cast Tinker, saccing the Mana Crypt, find Darksteel Colossus . He has the Welder, so I need to win without him getting another turn. I cast Yawgmoth's Will (all my lands are tapped now), replay Crypt and Lotus Petal , replay Tinker saccing Crypt and find Black Lotus . My only out is Time Walk , and the Lotus is my only mana source now. I sac Lotus for UUU, replay Ancestral Recall , and draw into Time Walk on the 3rd card. Without 3 pieces of Power (Recall, Lotus, Time Walk), the game was unwinnable from that state, and I certainly had a lot more fun pulling out the win like that than I could have without Power.
Broken plays are part of Vintage. You should learn to embrace the power that playing with Power gives you.
It certainly will be challenging, but more fun can be had by playing with Power because it allows for more broken plays. Take this real example that happened to me earlier today:I'm at 3, my opponent's at 6. He's tapped out with one card in hand and
Names like Ichorid and Flash/Hulk I can understand, same with Stax or Storm or Gush.
But why is this deck called Fish? Why is the Long deck called Long? Why is The Mountains Win Again called that? what is with these weird names, can someone explain?
Names like Ichorid and Flash/Hulk I can understand, same with Stax or Storm or Gush. But why is this deck called Fish?Why is the Long deck called Long?Why is The Mountains Win Again called that?what is with these weird names, can someone explain?
Names like Ichorid and Flash/Hulk I can understand, same with Stax or Storm or Gush.
But why is this deck called Fish? Why is the Long deck called Long? Why is The Mountains Win Again called that? what is with these weird names, can someone explain?
The original weenie aggro deck was WU and featured lots of Merfolk, hence "Fish". The name has stuck in Vintage, I guess because the format is 'old', much like the name.
GrimLong and PitchLong are named after the inimitable Mike Long, who I believe either built the deck or was one of the first to have success with it.
As for the weird names, c'mon, who doesn't like wacky deck titles?
The original weenie aggro deck was WU and featured lots of Merfolk, hence "Fish". The name has stuck in Vintage, I guess because the format is 'old', much like the name.GrimLong and PitchLong are named after the inimitable Mike Long, who I believe ei
Creature 3 gorilla shaman 3 waterfront bouncer 3 magus of the moon 4 grim lavamancer 4 ninja of deep hours
other 1 mystical tutor 1 jitte 1 engineered explosives 1 pyrostatic pillar 2 chain of vapor 3lava dart 3 pyroblast 4 brainstorm 1 A recall 1 mox sapphire 4 fow 3 daze
here's my budget u/r fish deck what do you think?Land8 island8 mountain4 mishra factoryCreature3 gorilla shaman3 waterfront bouncer3 magus of the moon4 grim lavamancer4 ninja of deep hoursother1 mystical tutor1 jitte1 engineered explosives1 pyrostati
Anyway, there was an interesting fish deck that won a 71 man over in Rome
Rome 06.07.2008 - 71 players
1. Francesco Giani
Maindeck (60): Spells (40): 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 2 Cloud of Faeries 3 Daze 2 Echoing Truth 4 Force of Will 1 Misdirection 1 Mistblade Shinobi 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours 3 Sage of Epityr 2 Spell Snare 4 Spellstutter Sprite 1 Time Walk 2 Fire/Ice 3 Gorilla Shaman 3 Grim Lavamancer
I think the Mistblade is an interesting choice. It obviously has synergy with the sprites and what not but it also helps to de-activate welders, buy turns against juggs, answer 11/11s and 12/12s among other things. Overall I think this is the most versatile UR fish build I have seen in a while. Any thoughts from people who play with/against fish regularly?
I love necro'ing Deck to Beat threads :rolleyes:Anyway, there was an interesting :u::r: fish deck that won a 71 man over in Rome Rome 06.07.2008- 71 players1. Francesco GianiMaindeck (60):Spells (40):1 Black Lotus1 Mox Ruby1 Mox Sapphire1 Ancestral R
It certainly will be challenging, but more fun can be had by playing with Power because it allows for more broken plays. Take this real example that happened to me earlier today:
I'm at 3, my opponent's at 6. He's tapped out with one card in hand and a summoning sick Goblin Welder . I EOT Mystical Tutor for Tinker with a board of all mana, including Mana Crypt . I win the flip during my upkeep and stay at 3. I draw Tinker for the turn. I cast Tinker, saccing the Mana Crypt, find Darksteel Colossus . He has the Welder, so I need to win without him getting another turn. I cast Yawgmoth's Will (all my lands are tapped now), replay Crypt and Lotus Petal , replay Tinker saccing Crypt and find Black Lotus . My only out is Time Walk , and the Lotus is my only mana source now. I sac Lotus for UUU, replay Ancestral Recall , and draw into Time Walk on the 3rd card. Without 3 pieces of Power (Recall, Lotus, Time Walk), the game was unwinnable from that state, and I certainly had a lot more fun pulling out the win like that than I could have without Power.
Broken plays are part of Vintage. You should learn to embrace the power that playing with Power gives you.
this right here is the essence of Type 1. you should copy and paste this post in the "what's the difference between Vintange/Legacy" thread!!!
this right here is the essence of Type 1. you should copy and paste this post in the "what's the difference between Vintange/Legacy" thread!!!
yeah I remember seeing that build on deckcheck.com, and I really liked it. The only real issue I have with the deck is the ingot chewers in the sb. I realize that it can become a late game beater and answer to a chalice for one, but is it really worth sacrificing the explosive power of shattering spree just for a 3/3 for 5?
yeah I remember seeing that build on , and I really liked it. The only real issue I have with the deck is the ingot chewers in the sb. I realize that it can become a late game beater and answer to a chalice for one, but is it really worth sacrificing
He has 4 volc's one ruby and one lotus as red mana sources. Against stax, where you are most likely to be hit with chalice at 1 you will need at least 2 of those 6 sources, except now your facing down wastes so you will be walking two lands into wastes. Also, the evoke gets around thorn as well.
I won't say it is strictly better than spree, but there are certainly cases where the distinction is a moot point. Especially when you run things like daze, possibly slowing down your red build up.
He has 4 volc's one ruby and one lotus as red mana sources. Against stax, where you are most likely to be hit with chalice at 1 you will need at least 2 of those 6 sources, except now your facing down wastes so you will be walking two lands into was
IMO any fish deck not packing null rod and tarmogoyf (this includes non-blue fish decks like TMWA) is a mistake. Yes, I'm talking to you, the one in the back playing UW fish to an 0-2 drop, and you playing UR fish to a 1-2 drop. Quit handicapping yourself with sub-awesome cards.
EDIT: Since the current BUG Fish decks look significantly different than the one at the top of the thread here is what a basic template should look like (all credit to Eric Becker):
BUG Fish.IMO any fish deck not packing null rod and tarmogoyf (this includes non-blue fish decks like TMWA) is a mistake. Yes, I'm talking to you, the one in the back playing UW fish to an 0-2 drop, and you playing UR fish to a 1-2 drop. Quit handi
Swords isn't always better, but in a deck that cares so much about tempo, the extra life isn't as bad as the extra land. I could see an argument for boarding a few copies of path for decks that don't have any basics, but those are few and far between and prolly not worth the loss of board slots, which are really tight in fish.
Swords isn't always better, but in a deck that cares so much about tempo, the extra life isn't as bad as the extra land. I could see an argument for boarding a few copies of path for decks that don't have any basics, but those are few and far betwee
Swords isn't always better, but in a deck that cares so much about tempo, the extra life isn't as bad as the extra land. I could see an argument for boarding a few copies of path for decks that don't have any basics, but those are few and far between and prolly not worth the loss of board slots, which are really tight in fish.
Most decks run at least 1 basic besides like, Aggro MUD and Dredge.
Most decks run at least 1 basic besides like, Aggro MUD and Dredge.
1x Ancestral Recall 1x Brainstorm 4x Force of Will 1x Mystical Tutor 3x Daze 2x Hurkyl's Recall 3x Stifle 1x Time Walk
4x Flooded Strand 1x Island 2x Polluted Delta 1x Strip Mine 4x Wasteland 3x Tropical Island 3x Tundra
SB 3x Ghostly Prison 2x Kataki, War's Wage 1x Relic of Progenitus 2x Tormod's Crypt 4x Trygon Predator 3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
Any thoughts? I might start running this, since every other deck I've tried has fallen flat on its cardboard face.
Saw this fish list one MTGS earlier, apparently it won something big.1x Black Lotus1x Mox Emerald1x Mox Pearl1x Mox Sapphire3x Null Rod4x Meddling Mage4x Qasali Pridemage4x Cold-Eyed Selkie4x Noble Hierarch3x Tarmogoyf1x Ancestral Recall1x Brainstorm
fish deck that won a 71 man over in Rome 
