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1 year ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 12:31PM #171
malcos
  • Out of his way
Date Joined: Oct 1, 2004
Posts: 877
Can anyone point me towards a generic decklist for learning how to properly play this? I really like the idea behind it (and it's resilience to counters/discard) but am still learning about it.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 2:46PM #172
igri_is_a_bk
Date Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Posts: 389
Sure. I think when you're first getting started you'll want Dread Return targets. I started with two of them and I enjoyed it, at first. They're good for a beginner as they allow you to make a minor mistake and still pull out the win while you're learning the deck. 

4 City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Tarnished Citadel
Cephalid Coliseum

Golgari Grave-Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Golgari Thug
Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Flame-kin Zealot

Breakthrough
Careful Study
Bridge from Below
Cabal Therapy
Dread Return

This is the list I used when I first started. I've made some tweaks since then and you will too as you play it more. Angel of Despair can also be substituted for the Zealot if you don't think you'll need to win second turn very often. My current list is a page back if you're interested.

Dredge is a combo deck and, as such, each card should be under strict scrutiny for its inclusion. One major piece of advice I'd give to any new dredge player is to not reduce the number of dredgers below 12. Dredge loses when it fails to dredge. I know that sounds like an obvious statement, but when I started playing everyone was only using 11 dredgers. That's because there exists a significant mathematical fact with the number 11 in a 60 card deck. The highest chance of having only one of a type of card without redundancy occurs at 11. The types of cards I'm talking about are 1) discard, 2) draw, 3) 5-color land, and 4) dredgers. Obviously you want one of each. Hence, the reason for 11 being considered a sacred number for us.

You'll notice that this list only has 10 5-color lands, and if you cut any card, then the third Tarnished Citadel should probably be your replacement.

I could go on forever, but I'll stop here and let somebody else chime in. 
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 02, 2012 - 10:18AM #173
RalphietheAlien
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2009
Posts: 373
Igri is totally right about all of that.

Dredge never seems hard to play, but it takes a lot of getting used to.  Learning what to name with a Cabal Therapy was one of the hardest things for me to learn.  (I usually name counters like Force of Will and Daze against blue decks, or Swords to Plowshares if I'm playing against white).  I would also advise you to play a lot of pre-sideboard games first, just so you get to know the deck really well, all of the cool card interactions available, and learn what makes a keepable hand, before you start trying to play through all of your opponents sideboarded graveyard hate.

Lastly, that list is very solid and is pretty close to my first list, but I would drop 1 Dread Return and add one more Careful Study .  Study is a priceless card in this deck.  While not being as explosive as Breakthrough , it works as draw and it can be used as a discard outlet if necessary. It also can make some unkeepable hands keepable by helping you to dig for a card you need.  Also, you'll find that 2 Dread Return really is enough.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 04, 2012 - 2:20PM #174
igri_is_a_bk
Date Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Posts: 389
Well, I finally broke down and just ordered four Lion's Eye Diamond. I wonder if they'll increase in price after Dark Ascension comes out - that's probably a stretch, but it'd be sweet. I'm also excited about the possibility of playing TES in the future. The only expensive cards left to buy for that would be the three dual lands and they can be accumulated easily enough with some decent tournament placings.

I don't think I'll use them until Faithless Looting comes out, but I didn't want to risk them increasing in price after that happened.

I never thought the day would come, but I think I've become Mr. Johnny Combo at this point.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 06, 2012 - 9:58AM #175
RalphietheAlien
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2009
Posts: 373
Congrats!  Ive been really tempted to get a playset lately, but being a highschool student, I definitely can't afford them.  I guess I just have to play LEDless for the next few years......
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 5:23PM #176
igri_is_a_bk
Date Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Posts: 389
Deleted.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 5:40PM #177
RalphietheAlien
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2009
Posts: 373
Sun Titan seems really fun but it may be overkill, Im honestly not sure. As you said, youll figure that out through testing.  But other than that it looks really good.  I can't wait to see how it performs.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 16, 2012 - 1:55PM #178
MGDerek
Date Joined: Nov 20, 2011
Posts: 516
So I saw Flayer of the Hatebound, one of the previewed cards for DA and decided I was to become a Dredge player.

Pretty Run of the Mill I think but would it be viable? And about how much would this cost me?

 49 spells

Flayer of the Hatebound 1
Golgari Grave Troll 4
Stinkweed Imp 4
Golgari Thug 3
Dread Return 4
Bridge from Below 4
Narcomeoba 4
Ichorid 4
Sun Titan 1
Cabal Therapy 4
Flame-Kin Zealot 1
Brainstorm 4
Faithless Looting 4
Gitaxian Probe 4
Intangible Virtue 2
Eternal Witness 1

11 lands

City of Brass 4
Gemstone Mine 4
Cephalid Coliseum 3
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 17, 2012 - 11:58AM #179
igri_is_a_bk
Date Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Posts: 389
Flayer is probably going to be good enough. It reminds me of Stalking Vengeance , which I used for a while and was pretty awesome. It's more for the slow, grinding matches against a dedicated control or lock deck.

Brainstorm is actually a no-no in dredge because it doesn't discard. If your only spell to cast in your opener is brainstorm, you'll either have to DDD or mulligan. Those should be Breakthrough or Careful Study .

Your land count is light. First, you'll want to play four coliseum. It's the best anti-counter draw available. Second, you only use eight gold lands to cast Therapy and Looting, so you'll want to add at least two more. Tarnished Citadel is, believe it or not, the next best one considering the others' drawbacks. Undiscovered Paradise means you'll never get to activate coliseum turn two, which you wanna do. Forbidden Orchard gives them tokens to block with and when their tokens die, so do your bridges. Tendo Ice Bridge only gets one use. 

Intangible Virtue can go. It doesn't matter if your tokens are 2/2 or 3/3 when you have 12 of them. I see you're gonna combo them with Sun Titan, but it's unneccessary. You want your dredge deck streamlined, not cute.

Your black creature count is dangerously low for supporting four Ichorid. The fourth golgari thug should probably be added and maybe some Putrid Imp .

You have too many dread return targets. Sun Titan is for LED builds to get them back and cast looting again. You can cut him. Eternal Witness is for when you play a singleton metagame spell, like Nature's Claim or Firestorm in your 60. You can cut her. At that point you can safely cut at least one dread return. 

The probe has been used in the past. I've never tried it, so I can't speak to its strength or weakness. It is good with Therapy, that's for sure. 

Overall, I think your main problems are that you dont have enough discard outlets or lands.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 17, 2012 - 11:32PM #180
MGDerek
Date Joined: Nov 20, 2011
Posts: 516
Thanks much for the help. I'll post new list soon. Also what's the smallest amount of money i can invest a Dredge deck and have it not be a disgrace?
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