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4 years ago ::
Feb 03, 2009 - 3:15PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Nov 26, 2008
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How are you guys doing with the GY hate? Pithing Needle and Chalice help for Relic and Crypt, but what about when they drop Leyline? We have to wait till we draw CoV or another form of bounce? Lately, I've been having a problem against Morning Tide... Any reccomended solutions?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 03, 2009 - 3:20PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2007
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How are you guys doing with the GY hate? Pithing Needle and Chalice help for Relic and Crypt, but what about when they drop Leyline? We have to wait till we draw CoV or another form of bounce? Lately, I've been having a problem against Morning Tide... Any reccomended solutions?
Chain of Vapor and 1cc enchantment removal are your main answers to Leyline. If you can get one of those, you should be fine unless they have the mana to replay it. Tormod's Crypt is much more popular than Leyline, as only decks that can actually hardcast Leyline bother playing it.
Cabal Therapy and Unmask help with Morningtide.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 11, 2009 - 7:18AM
#113
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Hey guys, I've been thinking about including sensei's divining top, but I haven't tested, I'll tell later how it went.
Also I'm having serious problems sideboarding:
I took out -4 LED -1 Gol Thug (2 left) -1 DR (2 left) -3 Careful study...
What else, more thugs? ichorids?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 21, 2009 - 10:00AM
#114
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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Hey guys, I've been thinking about including sensei's divining top, but I haven't tested, I'll tell later how it went.
Also I'm having serious problems sideboarding:
I took out -4 LED -1 Gol Thug (2 left) -1 DR (2 left) -3 Careful study...
What else, more thugs? ichorids?
I dont think it will work because ichorid has a very low land count and everone and their mothers are using wasteland so it is hard to keep lands in play for very long.
Ps: sorry about not having any punctiation one of my hand is injured so i cant be bothered
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4 years ago ::
Feb 24, 2009 - 2:39PM
#115
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I've read the above thread and I took my version of ichorid to pro tour chicago qualifier. It was not a happy day every game there was way more ichorid hate than I could of ever imagined so now I'm going to work on revamping my version first off, I want to say that cephalid sage was something I quit using at the start of the deck mainly for 2 reasons, 1 If I'm dread returning a creature and its not a Flamekin then I'm trying to stay alive and 2 the sage normally is suboptimal when compared to anything else you can return. I ran 1 ancestor's chosen and surprisingly it saved me two games when I tried it out but I still think the slot could be better used. Heres the complete list
Lands ( 12 )
4 City of brass
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Creatures (28)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari grave troll
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame kin zealot
1 Nether Traitor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Spells (20)
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Bridge from below
4 Lion's eye diamond
2 Deep analysis
2 Dread return
SB
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Emerald Charm
3 Ancient Grudge
Right off the bat I'm going to tell you at a tourney with ichorid there are mainly 4 cards that will cause you a world of hate,
Powder Keg > token and permanent removal
1 mana sac creatures > think mog fanatic, spore frog etc
Echoing truth > bye bye tokens
Tormod's Crypt> soooooooooooo many
There are many more forms of hate but the one that I never expected to see that was in a white smokestack trinisphere deck was
Ghostly Prison this totally shuts down ichorid. Out of three games this was dropped game 2 and 3 turn 1 followed by a crypt and a keg. This was played every game thanks to enlightened tutors.
Emerald charm is a nice way to remove it but ray will definitely get a sideboard slot from now on in addition to emerald. Leyline is incredible vrs any deck with sacs I played a survival deck and goblins leyline shut both of them down and kept my bridges intact. Surprisingly pithing needle is my big if card dropping emerald charms for ray is 1 option or dropping pithing all 3 games I dropped a needle calling tormod's I was countered with another form of hate and the amount I was slowed by because of having to draw pithing and not able to dredge for it, in other words mull till you get it hand 1 or youll probably not see it. Pithing was very very worthless to me considering the amount of money for my set it makes me disappointed it won't work in this deck.
I do have however 4 main questions having to do with my creature base,
1 Ancestor's chosen is good but after looking at options I'm debating on whether
Angel of Despair
Kederekt Leviathan
Dominus of Fealty
Child of alara
which would be better this is my question
Angel = spot removal great way to get out of locks and keep hammering the opponent also a nice way to remove anything that you can't handle while keeping a 5/5 flyer in play.
Kederekt= Mass opening this could hurt you considering youll put zombies into play after a sac only to remove them on the flip side youll also be totally opening your opponents field, have not tested yet curious.
Dominus= Controlling the board in ichorid is incredible I have playtested it and in longer games this card is extremely nice to have, the biggest problem though is that dominus is removed with spot, or bounce before you get to use his ability so I'm not as thrilled as I am with the angel.
Child= Field clear keep your lands but you got to sac him to get it to work worth it?
Also I feel eternal witness is worth mentioning I haven't playtested and a free breakthrough does sound super nasty.
Please excuse any spelling I was typing this quickly so if I made a mistake sorry in advance.
I also want to know is a Nether worth it in the deck and would the older shadow be better than the new traitor? I have enjoyed the extra sac and even finished off a player thanks to his shadow before. Lastly is 11 lands and 3 dread returns a better option? Just asking I'm never mana flooded but it is something I have wondered. Also 4 wraiths are never a bad decision I've went off with just a wraith so many games its not even funny, opponent goes first, I draw a card nothing to go off wraith and dredge in hand, discard dredge, there turn, my turn again dredge, another dredge hit yard, wraith, and normally ready to win thanks to a new graveyard, also cannot stress enough cabal therapy and calling the right card wins games really fast.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 24, 2009 - 2:50PM
#116
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2007
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Cutting Sage is a HUGE mistake unless it's for Eternal Witness. Your reasons for getting rid of it are bad. Dread Returning a creature other than FKZ isn't just trying to stay alive; returning a Cephalid Sage will usually let you just win with FKZ anyways. Sage is actually one of the best creatures to return as it basically dredges your entire library.
You should be able to win even if you get your tokens removed. Ichorid is still a win condition. Tormod's Crypt is quite common, though, and is quite good against you.
The only time you want 3 Dread Return is when you are playing Eternal Witness over Sage.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 24, 2009 - 4:27PM
#117
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Cutting Sage is a HUGE mistake unless it's for Eternal Witness. Your reasons for getting rid of it are bad. Dread Returning a creature other than FKZ isn't just trying to stay alive; returning a Cephalid Sage will usually let you just win with FKZ anyways. Sage is actually one of the best creatures to return as it basically dredges your entire library.
You should be able to win even if you get your tokens removed. Ichorid is still a win condition. Tormod's Crypt is quite common, though, and is quite good against you.
The only time you want 3 Dread Return is when you are playing Eternal Witness over Sage.
I haven't seen a situation where Cephalid Sage allows a FKZ win, this is out of many many games, when I first built the deck there was no nether traitor and no Ancestor's instead I used 2 Cephalid Sage and every time I regreted it they always hit a brick wall. 1 2 3 dredge possible per 1 sage -2 for 1 more possible dredge next turn. This only works if you have that many dredge in your graveyard, normally most of your dredge moves from your yard to your hands in the first 1 or 2 turns only way its getting tossed back out is with a LED or an Imp holding down the field. Plus Sage just isn't as versitile as I would like the deck to be, Sage may or may not = more speed but speed doesn't help me at this point I need survivability or sideboard hate.
As I said before deck wins normally turns 1-5 past 5 your games get really really messy and once all the hate is sideboarded expect it to last long past 5 unless your able to go first and go off turn 1. Also going off turn one isn't horrible often you normally hit a snag somewhere due to lack of dredge or draw about the only time you see turn 1 win is Golgari in hand, LED, Breakthrough, Gemstone get lucky and keep dredging dredgers with a narco and pull a flashback draw into your yard for a fast win. I'm trying to find something that will let me survive if I get lockd down, Crucible of worlds, wasteland, lock with ghostly prison is mean ><. Extirpating bridges and ichorid is becoming more and more common, I have to make sure I have a backup plan just those 2 sets will not win a game and dread returning is about our only option if we lose ichorid and our bridges. You will only get 1 Dread off if you lose them both and your already hurting you want something that will seal you a game. I've seen akroma mentiond multiple times but same problem comes up if Ghostly comes down, or smokestacks, I'm really thinking about the angel of despair or the child of alara, both have a nice way to reeven things out at the end of the game. Angel is a utility that could crush alot of hate and is immune to most of the removal theyll sideboard in only thing to worry about would be bounce or sop.
Lastly never and I mean never in tons of games has a Sage ever allowed a full library dredge or even close, he normally spelled my end. Due to some type of snag going off, no other dread return not enough bridges when I played him, or no zealot in the grave after he comes out. Every turn you leave zombie tokens out is a turn you have to lose them all remember always Pyroclasm, Echoing Truth, are both fairly rampant along with Tormod sideboard hate expect to see Tormod every game and one of the 2 every other.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 24, 2009 - 7:29PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2007
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If you don't want to run Sage, that's fine. Just know that everyone disagrees with you, but you shouldn't listen to conventional wisdom if your testing indicates otherwise. All I know is that Sage was great for me and almost everyone else playing this deck.
What are your thoughts on running Eternal Witness? It's usually better for me than the Sage. If you do use Witness, you should go up to three Dread Return and play Firestorm in your sideboard.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 25, 2009 - 2:35AM
#119
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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I've read the above thread and I took my version of ichorid to pro tour chicago qualifier. It was not a happy day every game there was way more ichorid hate than I could of ever imagined so now I'm going to work on revamping my version first off, I want to say that cephalid sage was something I quit using at the start of the deck mainly for 2 reasons, 1 If I'm dread returning a creature and its not a Flamekin then I'm trying to stay alive and 2 the sage normally is suboptimal when compared to anything else you can return. I ran 1 ancestor's chosen and surprisingly it saved me two games when I tried it out but I still think the slot could be better used. Heres the complete list
Lands ( 12 )
4 City of brass
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Creatures (28)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari grave troll
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame kin zealot
1 Nether Traitor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Spells (20)
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
4 Bridge from below
4 Lion's eye diamond
2 Deep analysis
2 Dread return
SB
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Emerald Charm
3 Ancient Grudge
Right off the bat I'm going to tell you at a tourney with ichorid there are mainly 4 cards that will cause you a world of hate,
Powder Keg > token and permanent removal
1 mana sac creatures > think mog fanatic, spore frog etc
Echoing truth > bye bye tokens
Tormod's Crypt> soooooooooooo many
There are many more forms of hate but the one that I never expected to see that was in a white smokestack trinisphere deck was
Ghostly Prison this totally shuts down ichorid. Out of three games this was dropped game 2 and 3 turn 1 followed by a crypt and a keg. This was played every game thanks to enlightened tutors.
Emerald charm is a nice way to remove it but ray will definitely get a sideboard slot from now on in addition to emerald. Leyline is incredible vrs any deck with sacs I played a survival deck and goblins leyline shut both of them down and kept my bridges intact. Surprisingly pithing needle is my big if card dropping emerald charms for ray is 1 option or dropping pithing all 3 games I dropped a needle calling tormod's I was countered with another form of hate and the amount I was slowed by because of having to draw pithing and not able to dredge for it, in other words mull till you get it hand 1 or youll probably not see it. Pithing was very very worthless to me considering the amount of money for my set it makes me disappointed it won't work in this deck.
I do have however 4 main questions having to do with my creature base,
1 Ancestor's chosen is good but after looking at options I'm debating on whether
Angel of Despair
Kederekt Leviathan
Dominus of Fealty
Child of alara
which would be better this is my question
Angel = spot removal great way to get out of locks and keep hammering the opponent also a nice way to remove anything that you can't handle while keeping a 5/5 flyer in play.
Kederekt= Mass opening this could hurt you considering youll put zombies into play after a sac only to remove them on the flip side youll also be totally opening your opponents field, have not tested yet curious.
Dominus= Controlling the board in ichorid is incredible I have playtested it and in longer games this card is extremely nice to have, the biggest problem though is that dominus is removed with spot, or bounce before you get to use his ability so I'm not as thrilled as I am with the angel.
Child= Field clear keep your lands but you got to sac him to get it to work worth it?
Also I feel eternal witness is worth mentioning I haven't playtested and a free breakthrough does sound super nasty.
Please excuse any spelling I was typing this quickly so if I made a mistake sorry in advance.
I also want to know is a Nether worth it in the deck and would the older shadow be better than the new traitor? I have enjoyed the extra sac and even finished off a player thanks to his shadow before. Lastly is 11 lands and 3 dread returns a better option? Just asking I'm never mana flooded but it is something I have wondered. Also 4 wraiths are never a bad decision I've went off with just a wraith so many games its not even funny, opponent goes first, I draw a card nothing to go off wraith and dredge in hand, discard dredge, there turn, my turn again dredge, another dredge hit yard, wraith, and normally ready to win thanks to a new graveyard, also cannot stress enough cabal therapy and calling the right card wins games really fast.
Have you tried Wispmare? it is great to get rid of both leylines since you can cast it turn 1 and late game ghostly prison-propagandas, can be brought back with DR. I am running 3 and very happy with them.
For your info I was running ray of revelation before wispmare but it was a dissapointment. Against leyline I had to wait for 2 lands because I can not use it from graveyard and it is countered more easily if they are going first (daze). And can not be cast against ghostly prison etc since they generally destroy all your lands (unless you chose to run Eternal witness)
If you don't want to run Sage, that's fine. Just know that everyone disagrees with you, but you shouldn't listen to conventional wisdom if your testing indicates otherwise. All I know is that Sage was great for me and almost everyone else playing this deck.
What are your thoughts on running Eternal Witness? It's usually better for me than the Sage. If you do use Witness, you should go up to three Dread Return and play Firestorm in your sideboard.
Can you give me some examples of how you use firestorm please because I used it and was very dissapointed with it. It was very weak against swarms like elves or goblins or really useless late game (I was running it with EW).
Also has anyone tried Street Wraith in their MD? They aer great for speed and ichorid. I am thinking of trying to make my deck faster since there is no unmask in MTGO to give it more survival.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 25, 2009 - 12:42PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2007
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On Firestorm...
Also, Firestorm in the sb is a new innovation. It's very potent. It acts as lackey removal/Discard outlet/X damage to the dome all on turn one. You can drop a 5c land, play it, toss 5 cards to do 5 damage to their dome, wipe out their turn one play if you are on the draw (which you most likely will be game 2). This makes it substantially easier to win without comboing off. Just ichorid beats with added zombie tokens, DR your EW for the Firestorm tossing X dredgers stuck in your hand and win. In a nutshell, Firestorm makes your non-combo game quicker. I realize it's risky, but at the same time you don't have to discard your whole hand, and it still gets stuff discarded even if it's countered because discarding is an additional cost to play it(Unlike any other discard spell you run; they can counter any blue draw and discard spell, Stifle/Needle SW and Coliseum, counter LED and PImp), which is definitely a plus. Also, it's a 1cc answer to Jailer, which can give you up to 8 slots for it's removal (4/4 on CoV and Firestorm).
This, basically.
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