Party Rogue Kept Items For Herself

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So last night 3 out of our party, me, the rogue and another were searching a room. We made some poor rolls apart from the rogue, she found 2 silver statues, 5 rings and a +1 chainmail. So she declares the chain mail which i graciously accept after asking the rest of the party for my Warlord, but she keeps the other stuff for herself.

I thought that was a bit cheeky, she said that as she made the roll and succeeded so she could do as she wanted. To be honest i wasn't that bothered because i got the Chainmail, but i felt bad for the rest of the party. I asked the DM if i could make a check to find the items or see if she was lying, and the DM said that i didn't see her find (and hide on herself) the items as i was searching elsewhere and asked why would my character be suspicious (he wouldn't be). So my character asked the rogue if she found anything other than the chainmail, to which she replied no. So it all makes sense from a role play perspective.

Now no one else at the table seemed too bothered by it, and hence didn't say anything either, which i was a little suprised at. Am i being too sensitive? I guess for all i know she might declare the items as group loot later on. However my character would be very annoyed if he found out that someone was hamstringing the group. Especially when others in the group have indicated items they have found and i've kept track of them to distribute out later on. But then again if she is going to by a magical weapon for herself then it would benefit the group anyway.

Just wondered what others thought about this, and possibly what i could do about it that would make sense in game. I guess wait until the little story pans out.
There are many schools of thought on this, some say she is being selfish, other that she is just roleplaying her character, still others that she isn't doing anything wrong.

In the end it's more important what she does with what she is keeping, rather then the fact she is keeping it. If she is using it to gather things to help the group it's not so important that she is keeping them to herself for the moment.
If you're bothered by it, tell the player that you're bothered by it. The roleplay perspective is inferior to the fact that a bunch of people hang out together during a social activity. If one behaves in such a way that another is bothered, that issue should be addressed.

It may work out in your favor, or the group might decide that this is an acceptable way of playing. The world is not perfect: issues don't solve themselves, and he who is brave enough to address something doesn't always get the results he desires. But when it's out in the open, people who like hanging out together generally find a way to compromise and move on. If it's not addressed, it will linger.
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Well i really don't know how i feel about it. It didn't really bother me, it just thought it was cheeky. I don't have a problem with how she did it, it was all within the rules and i got a magical item out of it. Maybe i'm reading into it too much, i'm sure i do things that the party as a whole don't really like, so swings and round abouts i guess. (Note: Out of frustration my character may have flung a javelin at a pretty nasty caster. :S)

My character is a trusting one (perhaps too much), but i will see what happens when we divide the loot up, pehaps she might refuse her share.

Basically i don't want this to be a catalyst for people to just start taking things that they find and keeping them. Fair enough they made the rolls but its a team effort to get in the dungeon and stay alive. I guess that if it starts to spread i will make a point of saying i don't think its fair.

In an RP sense as soon as my character finds out about any funny buisness then he can kick up a fuss. He is pretty moral and all for stuff that is fair, so it would be a big trust issue for him. That might impact how he reacts in battle for example (might not be as willing to provide help),

Other views welcome.
I would recommend OOC how the group is to dived up the treasure. gold, magic items everything be talked about.

I play plenty of rogues characters but I have never agreed with that stealling for your party is just playing IC what your pc would do, unless Your rogue is going to be willing to be attacked or ejected from the group when IC the rest of the party learns that instead of an even split for everyone she has been stealing from yall.
I play plenty of rogues characters but I have never agreed with that stealling for your party is just playing IC what your pc would do, unless Your rogue is going to be willing to be attacked or ejected from the group when IC the rest of the party learns that instead of an even split for everyone she has been stealing from yall.

That seems a bit virtuous for a rogue. Depending on the rogue's alignment, there's not a problem with them pilfering the choicer bits of sparkly for themselves.

What I would have problems with is the warlord deciding apparently out of the blue to start watching the rogue closely for signs that they've been pocketing a bit more than their share. That's a case of player knowledge affecting character action.

I've played in alot of games over the years. A rogue, thief in second, or even a bard pocketing an item here or there when they're fairly certain no one is watching is not a big deal. In one game the party was all thieves, so the pilfering was pretty much non-stop. Depending on the rogue, the OP should be more worried about getting knifed by the rogue for paying too close attention.
She's a thief. She gets screwed by the rules on a regular basis. She can't be a front line fighter or cast neat-o spells. What she does do well is rather limited. Unless she's steal items off of another character I don't see what there is to complain about. And, even then, if people just roleplay the situation correctly it shouldn't be a problem.

To be honest i wasn't that bothered because i got the Chainmail

But, you were bothered. You were bothered enough to come here and post. You even posted twice about it, making me think you want people to come back with, "that's not right, it's not fair to the party, you should tell her to stop doing that". I just don't think that's going to happen. Parties have theives in them because of their usefulness. It comes with a price, and that price is theives steal things.

...just IMO.
I've found that this type of behavior causes more problems than it's worth. I guess it depends how far you wanna take it.

Probably the best solution is talk to the player first - say it pisses you off. If she says something like: "Just playing the character - Sorry!" I'd then talk to the DM. Tell him this is inversely effecting your game play experience. If he says: "It's a PC issue - not a DM one." and refuses to make her tone it down...

... I'd simply tie her down and chop off her hands. When both her and the DM look at you with horror, you saying. "Where my character comes from - this is how we deal with thieves. Now, do you wanna keep playing *this* game, or does the Rogue wanna stop robbing us blind?"
That seems a bit virtuous for a rogue. Depending on the rogue's alignment, there's not a problem with them pilfering the choicer bits of sparkly for themselves.

What I would have problems with is the warlord deciding apparently out of the blue to start watching the rogue closely for signs that they've been pocketing a bit more than their share. That's a case of player knowledge affecting character action.

I've played in alot of games over the years. A rogue, thief in second, or even a bard pocketing an item here or there when they're fairly certain no one is watching is not a big deal. In one game the party was all thieves, so the pilfering was pretty much non-stop. Depending on the rogue, the OP should be more worried about getting knifed by the rogue for paying too close attention.

Yes, there is a problem. The problem is that the rogue is taking her unfair share of the party's gains and proving that she cannot be trusted. This is not conducive to playing the game. 'I'm just playing my character' is not an excuse to have your character be a jerk; if your character is going to steal from, attack, or betray other members of the party, you're playing a bad character.

I've played a lot of rogues and I have *never* stolen from the party. Simply put, it's stupid.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
This type of behaviour really makes me .

In my experience, this is a downhill slide. Once the rogue starts taking treasure for their personal benefit, it forces the rest of the party to act selfishly in order to get their fair share of the gold.

I reject the defense that it's "in character" to rob players and that for the group to be suspicious of the rogue is "metagaming".

My character always keeps a close eye on the thieves in the group. And you know how I pick them out? They're the ones that skulk around in the shadows, that stab others when they're not looking, and carry around special tools for jimmying locks. It doesn't take platinum dragon to figure out that these individuals should not be trusted.

Also, and rogues that ever want to survive with a group of adventurers should be upfront with them. Often times, you're deep underground or in the middle of nowhere, so if the party catches you stealing, it's very easy for them to gut you were you are and never be punished. You become just another one of those nameless ruffians that disappears into the wilderness.

You are not being sensitive. I would reiterate next session the rules for divving treasure. And if the rogue continues to do rogue-ish things for the team (bluffing guards, sneak attacks, open locks) feel free to watch her like a hawk and not trust a word that comes out of her mouth.

To do otherwise is to be willfully ignorant and any adventurer who is like that deserves to be robbed blind.
You even posted twice about it, making me think you want people to come back with, "that's not right, it's not fair to the party, you should tell her to stop doing that". I just don't think that's going to happen.

You're right, you can't simply 'lay down the law' on your peers. There are a lot of ways to play D&D. If a new group is formed, everybody plays D&D like he's used to. In some groups it is ok if the rogue steals from the party, while other groups use some sort of honor-system about cooperative play where this is 'not done'. Starting a conversation about how the new group is going to handle things is a decent way of dealing with (any) clashing expectations. The decision can go one way or another, as there is no absolute 'right' way to deal with this. Basically, when a few issues need to be addressed, you'll win some and you'll lose some.

Parties have theives in them because of their usefulness. It comes with a price, and that price is theives steal things.

I don't buy that you have to steal from your party because your class is called 'thief'. I don't see the party fighter beating up the rest because he's called 'fighter' and should therefore fight whenever he has the chance.

But I could accept a 'this PC is untrustworthy, and this will add depth to the character and create the roleplaying opportunities'. If that's what the group agrees upon, than that is a right way to play D&D for that group.
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But, you were bothered. You were bothered enough to come here and post. You even posted twice about it, making me think you want people to come back with, "that's not right, it's not fair to the party, you should tell her to stop doing that". I just don't think that's going to happen. Parties have theives in them because of their usefulness. It comes with a price, and that price is theives steal things.
...just IMO.

I posted twice? Do you mean my reply? Your post seems rather agressive.

Firstly i'm not looking for sympathy, and i don't think my post was leading replies into backing me up. If thats how it came across it wasn't intended, i just wondered what others thought.

Secondly, i'm not trying to lay down the law. We didn't agree to anything before hand, and she took the stuff, it was fair game. I just wanted to find out other peoples oppinions on it as i'm relatively new to 4e and RP as a whole.

What i said i think is true, but perhaps i said it in the wrong way. I'm not that bothered because as i picked up an item, it's likely that i won't get any gp or perhaps very little so that those who didn't get an item have enough to buy stuff for themselve. My main reason for posting was that if i hadn't recieved anything then i might be a little peeved, so why didn't anyone else say anything or even seem to react. Initially i just thought that this happens so perhaps i need to wise up.

I'll reiterate and say that i'm gonna see how this pans out. So it's nice to see how other feel about the matter and it gives me more information if i want to address it.
I think any lawful character realizes the risk with inviting an expert thief into the group.

Grab the rogue by the ankles and turn them upside down everytime you suspect something.
My character is quite suspicious of our Rogue and keeps a close eye on him when possible. If he were to be caught stealing, my Wizard would go apeshit.

OOC, however, I'm aware it's the batshit crazy Warlock who keeps nicking stuff and the Rogue is just looking to get laid as often as possible and not do too much work.
Really?

well it is the rogue, their whole thing is thievry. I wouldn't worry about it, there is only so much one person can hold on their person before they start looking suspicous.
Lots-O-RPG's Played: D&D (Advanced 2nded, 3.0, 3.5, 4thed & Pathfinder), StarWars (RCR & Saga), Scion, Shadowrun (4thed), Call of Cthulhu (Original % & d20), Warhammer, BESM (d20-3.5 compatable), Fudge (Fudge on the fly variant).
What i said i think is true, but perhaps i said it in the wrong way. I'm not that bothered because as i picked up an item, it's likely that i won't get any gp or perhaps very little so that those who didn't get an item have enough to buy stuff for themselve. My main reason for posting was that if i hadn't recieved anything then i might be a little peeved, so why didn't anyone else say anything or even seem to react. Initially i just thought that this happens so perhaps i need to wise up.

Others may not have said anything because they, too, may not know how they should react.

Talk to them, see if anyone else is bothered. If it is an issue, you should probably speak to the rogue herself.

In game, you can do as I suggested. Unless your character is unbelievably dim, he shouldn't be incredibly trusting of someone who does rather unscrupulous actions. Feel free to inform the DM that you are 'keeping a respectfully watchful eye on the rogue'. If you don't want to start the session saying this, do it once the rogue opens a single lock, disables a single trap, etc...

It's like inviting your friend who jacks cars to your house, then politely wondering where you wallet and keys went once he left.
I notice a lot of people are mentioning things to the effect of, 'This is the kind of thing that happens when you let a Rouge/Thief into the party.'.

I don't think that relavent as i'm hardly going to tell someone in the first session that i don't want them playing a Rouge because they are untrustworthy.

I'm pretty sure this will be dealt with in RP terms, there has been nothing to suggest the character is underhand in any way. She has been more than helpful, and like i said currently none of the party know she has pocketed the stuff.
Is it's stealing from the party if the rouge find something the rest of the party missed. I don't think so unless you had contract to split evenly anything of value found in the dungeon.

This kind of reminds of game we had back in the early 90s. There was a lot players. I might miss a few here but we had a Cleric, Paladin, fighter/wizard, 3 thieves, and a Ranger/druid.

We were in a dungeon and there was crawl space accessible from hole in the ceiling. Only the thieves could get to in and slip in. The hole was small and meant light armor only. So we send one thief up and he finds 10 golden disc worth 100 gp each. Out of game we know this but in game we don't. The other thieves are still climbing up when the first thief stashes 5 of the disc in his handy haver sack. Now the other two thieves arrive. They see 5 golden discs and they get talking. They decide to take one each and tell the rest of the party they found 2 golden discs. They agree and off we go. Now out of game we all know but in game we are supposed to roleplay that we don't know. The guy playing the Paladin however had a really tough time at this. He was ticked about that and was just waiting for the thieves to slip up. He never did actually catch them. I was playing the Ranger/Druid and I thought it was funny that one thief rips off the others then he plots with the other thieves to rip us off. I thought it was great.
I've seen this stuff happen a lot. Several people have their own private loot from hidden undeclared treasure hauls to finding an old helmet and wearing it long enough that it just kinda became his (turned out to be good magic item). Kinda makes imbalance and player tension, especially when it comes to people not having the chance to have private loot or being too team-player-y to have private loot (aka me and my LN character who somehow despite being the scout, never gets the chance to search a room privately - I have bad luck in getting paralyzed and such and as soon as the melee is done, people blurt out "I'm searching X" and I often stutter and end up stuck searching the remainder or saying "I'm also searching X"). The situation really builds a tension between players, especially since it makes some players a LOT more rich than others.

On the other side, another game I am in, the party rogue does carve a little off the top...and it works out fine. She'll pocket a few private loot items like a few gems or coins or something like that. And she will also sell off the loot since she has ranks in Appraise and Diplomacy, has a Handy Haversack, and also has connections with fences and the underground/black market. She will often, as a result, get a higher percentage of value than any of the rest of us (even as high as 75-80 percent buying price). Sometimes she will return to us and say she got 65 percent buying price when she got 70 percent and keep the difference which goes right around to get stuff to help the party like magic items and such. And none of us, as players, really have a problem with it.

I think the way to make it work is for the rogue or thievery character to have personal courtesy limits. Improving one's share by 10 percent by private loot and carving off the top is usually fine. Doubling or tripling your share or pocketing powerful items is never fine. I mean, the people who play the non-rogues are at a disadvantage...and if they feel that playing the other important classes is bringing them down, the party dynamic is lost.

Another comment I want to make is that a rogue/thief/whatever does not ever need to be sneaky and cheating towards the party. You can play an upfront, honest rogue (at least towards the party) who shares equally and does his job without having to claim a secret prize at each treasure chamber. That's like the fighter slaying the dragon and saying "I killed something so I get an extra share". Rogue is a job not a personality trait.
I posted twice? Do you mean my reply? Your post seems rather agressive.

My intent was to point out I think it bothers you more than you may think, not to be agressive.

The items that you pointed out that the thief took were relatively minor. IMO, people who want to write down every gold piece so it can be divided evenly are more annoying than the thief who keeps some for herself. Why does the one person have to write everything down and then assign $$ value to magic and not give the person with items as much money? To me, that person is more greedy and control freak than the thief who sneaks a few non-essentials.

So the thief kept some valuables...when the wizard needs money later does the thief help out or lie about not having any money? That's more relevant to me.

How about a party (wizard, thief, cleric, fighter) finds a treasure stash that contains armor, acrobatic boots, an amulet and gold. The treasure is guarded by a mage using a magical orb. The party kills the mage and the wizard takes the orb. The thief takes the boots and sneaks some coinage. The fighter gets the armor. The rest of the gold is divided evenly. Then an argument occurs over the amulet. Eventually the wizard gets the amulet because the fighter didn't want it and the wizard says, "I didn't get any magic from the treasure" and then complains about the thief taking coins before they are evenly divided, even tho his character knows nothing about it because he was LOOTING THE FALLEN MAGE at the time.

My point is, greedy players cause problems with playing, not just thief characters. Is the thief player being greedy or just trying to roleplay what she thinks her character would do? Some say it's a fine line, but I think it's easy to tell when the line is crossed....
My point is, greedy players cause problems with playing, not just thief characters. Is the thief player being greedy or just trying to roleplay what she thinks her character would do? Some say it's a fine line, but I think it's easy to tell when the line is crossed....

If it's roleplaying for a predominant number of players in the class of 'rogue' to pilfer items without party consent, it is equally roleplaying for savvy party members to watch said members of the 'rogue' class.

It takes a very mature person to steal from the group and keep things fun and civil. More often then not, the thief will steal something that would have helped the party had it been in someone else's hands. They either tote this item around for the rest of the campaign or sell it to bump up their own personal power.
I've played a lot of rogues and I have *never* stolen from the party. Simply put, it's stupid.

We're talking about rogues here, not paladins.

I had a rogue once that financed the construction of a wizard's tower, a cleric's temple and a fighter's stronghold with what he managed to ferret away. Being able to come up with money when the rest of the group is skinned is a pretty good skill if you're looking to live the easy life. Mind you that was the same rogue that always bought a bit of the local trade goods every time we travelled to another town. You can call it stupid or stealing, but the rest of the world calls it a "finder's fee" and banking.

Tell me, what would you do with the odd bits of treasure if you didn't have a rogue to tell you what it was worth? How would you sell the odd bits without the bargaining savvy that most rogues have? Is it too much to ask for a bit of coin in exchange for it? Do you give up anything for the weapons and armor you assume are yours because you're the only one that can use them? How about that scroll, what part of that does the rogue get?

So the rogue gets to take it in the shorts because they don't use heavy armors and wield alot of magic weapons? And then they get it again when scrolls and spellbooks come around? And again when the party splits the treasure? If you share equally, how much do other party members have to give up for the stuff they want?
In a game I'm DMing, the party Rogue stole some gold from the Cleric while the rest of the party was asleep. I didn't tell the Cleric he was missing some gold until the next time he went to buy something, at which point it came out that the rogue was not to be trusted. The solution was fairly elegant. The next time they were in combat the rogue was reduced to negative HP and had already spent her second wind, so the Cleric let her fail a death saving throw before deciding to heal her. She hasn't stolen anything from the party since. Your situation is somewhat different, but if your characters find out that the rogue is skimming and that's not to their liking, then some light punishment is perfectly reasonable.
@SourceOfEvil: I agree with a lot of your last post. Currently i've got a track of loose gp and gems that is deemed 'group loot' and will be divided up later. If we fine a magical item we see if anyone could benefit from it and if not add that to the pile.

I think i would have the same thoughts if it was any other PC (or Class) that did what the Rogue did. So i'm not shoe horning here.

TBH its too early to tell what this will lead to, so i guess right now its best to wait and see.
Currently i've got a track of loose gp and gems that is deemed 'group loot' and will be divided up later. If we fine a magical item we see if anyone could benefit from it and if not add that to the pile.

You don't see this as skimming? Your character is wearing a suit of chainmail +1 that could be sold off to increase that loot. are you going to take 1300 gold pieces less than the rest of the party? Fair's fair, isn't it?
You don't see this as skimming? Your character is wearing a suit of chainmail +1 that could be sold off to increase that loot. are you going to take 1300 gold pieces less than the rest of the party? Fair's fair, isn't it?

Yup.
First using "It's what my character would do" as an excuse is complete BS. You designed your character, so making a character who steals from the party makes it your fault. In fact one might say it's premeditated theft. There is no "RP" excuse for **** over your friends. There is of course a time when such actions aren't dickery and that is when PVP is allowed which brings us to:

Is this a PVP game? Because stealing from others is a PVP act. If the rogue has the right to loot stuff from fellow players you have the right to take her stuff and eject her violently from the party when you discover that betrayal. Consequences for actions taken. However since being ejected from the party is very similar to character death in a PnP game you and your group have to decide if you want to be messing with each other in ways that basically involve removal from the game. If it's cool with all of you go ahead. If not then it's time to lay some ground rules.

Lastly being a rogue has no excuse to steal from the party. A Rogue is not a thief, and even most thieves are smart enough not to steal from their friends, who they spend very long amounts of time with, and who are the only things standing between them and death. Wealthy merchants have far better long term risk to gold ratios.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
Personally I'd have the entire group discuss the issue. If the group like to have the character and keep the Thief for his/her 'charm' of being a loveable character that steals things that can easily be balanced with the Thief also obtaining gifts for the group during the course of their adventure.
Yes, I think you are being to sensitive about this.

You need to try harder to keep in-character knowledge & out-of-character knowledge seperate.
Sure, you as a player know the rogues double dipping.
But your character doesn't.
And it's just a game.

So just learn to play the game based on the info the character knows.
You also need to learn to seperate character vrs character conflicts/anger from player vrs player issues.
Learning to do this will lead to many years of better gaming & stories. It also makes it possible for RL best friends to do truely awefull things to each others characters during a session & be none-the-worse for it in real life.
There is no true equity when treasure is dished out ever unless it is straight GP. Magic items vary so greatly in their value that, monetarily speaking, someone gets the short end on every haul. So what if the Rogue is taking a little extra? What the party doesn't know about really doesn't hurt them. The 16 Cha rogue is probably so likeable anyway, that no one would bother to question them. Additionally the rogue can only ferret away small items for the most part. He's never going to be able to hid the +3 greatsword your paladin is drooling over or the plate armor your fighter desires.

As far as being naturally inclined to keep your eye on the rogue, that's some BS. Since when can you discern anybodies nature just based on how they fight? I have a rogue who doesn't steal at all, and doesn't use stealth. He has the ability to, he's trained in stealth and thievery, but he's a thug. He's a street brawler who throws sand in your eyes and stabs you in the kidney. If I were to start stealing from the party, they'd never even suspect me because I don't fit any sort of typical rogue/thief profile.

Also, does your party have a contract with one another about the division of loot? If not, then the rogue is just doing what's good for himself. And aren't adventurers a selfish lot to begin with? "Hey will you kill the monsters that are kidnapping and eating our people?" The ambitious adventurer responds, "Sure, but it's gonna cost you."

I've never stolen from anyone as any of my rogues, but i've played with people who have and it's just fine. In our group is actually quite hilarious to see how much of our wealth the rogue could amass without anyone noticing. And we were fine on treasure as it was. We all had good equipment and a little cash, the rogue had good equipment and a ton of cash.
I guess what it all comes down to is, it's only a problem if it's made into a problem. If the players get upset and it affects gaming with each other, then maybe the thief player needs to make an attitude shift. If everyone understands that the thief is just skimming and not out to get them it'll all work out.

In most games I've played this sort of thing is just expected. In fact, if the player who has the thief said they want to sit next to the DM to pass notes so the other players won't know what he's doing everyone shifts chairs to allow for it. However, if there's a paladin or equivalent in the group the thief better watch their butt.
It's one thing to skim, and it's another to take the majority share of the CR encounter treasure that's supposed to go to the group for themselves. But that's really not a problem with the Rogue so much as it is an issue with the DM- the DM should be keeping an eye on this and providing treasure that the rogue can't easily hide, or that will go to the rest of the party. Search checks be damned, if I were that DM, I'd let the rogue get away with a little bit, but otherwise I'd start stacking treasure so that the shiny stuff is jank and the gigantic suit of platemail is really good. Then the thief can 'skim' all they want, but they're actually just going to be getting their fair share of the treasure.

Not accounting for that is just... Bad DMing.


Fortunately for my own party, our rogue is almost never there- but he's screwed up enough times that we know he's a thief. Whenever something goes missing, he's the first one to get the blame. I fully expect the DM to use that against us at some point, but eh.
Oh Content, where art thou?
The items that you pointed out that the thief took were relatively minor.

Expressed over a series of many levels, it adds up in time. Like HP...

IMO, people who want to write down every gold piece so it can be divided evenly are more annoying than the thief who keeps some for herself. Why does the one person have to write everything down and then assign $$ value to magic and not give the person with items as much money? To me, that person is more greedy and control freak than the thief who sneaks a few non-essentials.

There's a difference between accounting/book keeping for accuracy's sake and personal gain. You'd be amazed how often a group of PCs doesn't remember item 'x' or plot device 'y' cuz' no one scribbles it down, then they get pi$$ed when it becomes a detriment later. They did it to themselves.
Still, you are assuming independent variables and may be mistaking good intention for ill. Depends on the group largely.

My point is, greedy players cause problems with playing, not just thief characters.

Greed is a sin, this much is true, but some are more equipped than others to express that in game (thieves). You want to just handwave it as, "Boys will be boys." when it's minor in scope which is largely fine. Unprofessional and really stupid, but fine thematically speaking. Of course, one must remember wrath is also a sin, and there are those better equipped w/ dolling out it as well (the remaining party), particularly when revenge is a really good motivator.

Is the thief player being greedy or just trying to roleplay what she thinks her character would do? Some say it's a fine line, but I think it's easy to tell when the line is crossed....

Well, that's the big question, but the answer lies in each household's game room, not an official stance from us, the community, you know? Entirely a personal matter w/ the PCs, not really me, the DM.


Why it's not a good idea (IMO).

Show
Unprofessional/Stupid:
-Ruins your reputation and rep is major for thieves. No one wants to hire some hack that is a petty crook. They want professional burglars, assassins, facemen, whatever. Thieves are like a sewing circle anyway, word gets around. What later-day party would hire someone they have to trust w/ their lives?

-Same reason many evil PCs won't or shouldn't dick over their teamates. They need the support of close friends to afford them "dubious" activity. Screwing your friends is largely shooting yourself in the foot in this light. What you bring to the table should outweigh what you take from it. This insures a degree of protection and loyalty.

-There are far more easier marks to rob that aren't in such a precarious position to catch you, stick it in and break it off. Rob a moneylender or something if you must. Robbing adventurers is the hallmark of stupidity given their relative power, conviction, and resources to extract revenge.

-You stand better chances making more money on the whole when you work together rather than nickel and diming them. Sum is greater...bla bla bla. When you take enough from 1 class, it may be enough to hamstring them at a later date, and in turn you by default when joined in group combat. Entire parties have died cuz' they were short item 'x', a +1 here or there, 1 healing potion, and so forth. When they go down, your chances do in turn.
Take care of them, they'll take care of you when you're in a tight spot.

-The risk outweighs the benefit; guards might not catch you, but very powerful and now, bitter, adventurers likely will. And their degree of mercy is not the same as local place 'x'. The lesson taught could be catastrophic as the breach of personal trust is as well. Why rob from ppl that are far better at dealing w/ this sort of thing than a lesser, NPC 3rd party?

-Nothing will ever be the same. It's like adultery. Even if amends were made, still, suspicion will always linger and the initial dynamic of loyalty and power is now compromised forever. They will be less likely to help you.

-Loss of credibility; suspicion alone will foster further distrust, further erroding the team's power and efficiency (screws everyone). Proof of guilt destroys it completely, undoing many levels of solid conflict resolution over peanuts. Realistically, many parties would take their due (rob him senseless) and kick out the rogue, or more simply kill him given the crime and he is now a liability as the truth has surfaced. This means he is even more unpredictable and likely to have a "F-it, the jig's up," mentality.

-They are far more likely to detect your larceny given such close proximity, knowing your habbits, etc. Bluff, for one, gets much harder when the subject of the deceit is a close friend/PC, as is the present case. It wouldn't be hard to discern, after a while, a disporportionate amount of wealth given said rogue's moral flexibility.

-Tactically incompetant; when you steal 'x', you're supposed to hide it, create some plausible deniability. Not keep it on you and mingle w/ the ppl you robbed, sleep next to, are nearly defenseless against at times. This is how many cops get crooks; they return to the scene of the crime...except here, the crime scene is static and stays w/ you/victims entirely. Not wise. A professional thief steals 'x', has a planned cache for it, or arranged a fence to move it quickly. Having 'x' on you means you probably took it. Like murder, no body = no crime.
When a man meets a force he cannot destroy he destroys himself instead. -Marlow, "30 Days of Night"
It's one thing to skim, and it's another to take the majority share of the CR encounter treasure that's supposed to go to the group for themselves.

If the thief is getting away with the majority of the loot then you either have one hell of a thief on your hands or a perception of -1. ;)

Agreed on the DMing part. The thief should only really be able to pull of skimming, and only now and then. That should be taken into accoutn by the DM.

She should also realize the consequences of being caught (depending on her party make-up) and only try to get a handful when nobody's looking. Anything more would be too noisy/heavy/bulky to hide.

Oh, and help party members financially when need-be. After all, the party being stronger only helps her adventuring career. Not helping party members with the loot you've acquired is just silly.
i have somebody like that in my campaigns...his favorite class what a rogue cause of reasons like this... theivery... so i started making characters with very good skills ... anti rogue skills... sense motice..spot...search...diplomacy

You could spot that he looted somthing... notice when he is lieing... and make your point for him to share it with diplomacy... the dm might just be like...." and some say... that the rogues heart grew 3 times its size that day"
lol... but anyway... when i play rogues i steal.. alot... alot alot... but i dont steal from my group... even if im N-E... i have respect for my party members... for always having my back... i dont steal from people i entrust my life to.. you know... for the rogue to do this to you guys... he is just having some RL giggles..and bringing down the overfall enjoyment of the campaign for the rest of the group... if your the only one bothered by this there isnt much you can do... but ask your party next time he does this... do it right in front of the rogue player... ask..." is anyone else bothered by him doing this all the time or is it just me?" ... that way if they agree... then look at him as politely ask him to stop... that usually does the trick... they are doing it to enjoy their character more by having some giggles but if you flat out call them on ruining your fun... they usualy notice they are bringing down the room....
Talk to the group and the DM. If everyone is fine with the roleplaying aspect of having a rogue who steals from the party, then suggest that your DM, when he's doing treasure parcels, intentionally shorts the rogue a bit.

The treasure parcel guidelines are intended to give everyone roughly the same amount of "loot". Thus, you guys "happen" to find items which are useless or unattractive to the rogue, and the rogue "happens" to steal stuff, and is able to buy stuff that is desired. Some groups get that to happen by sharing the loot equitably, and giving a larger share to the person who got shorted on a magic item. Your group can handle it another way if it's fun for you.

If people have a problem with the issue, whether or not their character knows about it, then the group should try to resolve this in some way. It wouldn't be OK (in most groups) for one character to be a demon worshipper and murderer (in secret) just because it was secret. If the secret activities are going to influence the group and their game, they should be examined by the group. No one player should really get to dictate the type of game everyone else is playing. The goal is for the game to be fun for everybody at the table, if possible.
You don't see this as skimming? Your character is wearing a suit of chainmail +1 that could be sold off to increase that loot. are you going to take 1300 gold pieces less than the rest of the party? Fair's fair, isn't it?

Well i don't think +1 Magic Cainmail is worth 1300gp, but yeah i think that principal is right.

I'd be happy not having as much loot because i got an item, seems fair to me and i'd put that forward to the group as the way we should divide it. In fact i think that the PHB mentions something like this where it talks about dividing loot.

I think its interesting how people are divided on this. Although i agree with a lot of people the in theory it is the DM's job to keep track of the economic balance, so i will perhaps just ask if him if thats the case and if so won't concern myself about it.
Well i don't think +1 Magic Cainmail is worth 1300gp, but yeah i think that principal is right.

Considering I got that price directly from the DMG, I'm fairly certain it's right. Let's see 150 for the chainmail, 150 for masterwork and 1000 for the +1 bonus. It's on page 216, if you'd like to check it.


Rogues skimming and stealing from the party goes back to the 2nd edition. Back in 2nd, a rogue could pick up extra xp for using their thieving skills and quite a few players figured out that if they used them on their own party, they tended to get arrested less. Palming a couple extra coins when you were searching for treasure got you 2xp per gold piece. Sucessful use of a thieving skill would get you 100xp. Since they didn't get any kind of combat bonuses to their xp like the fighters, wizards and clerics did, it was one of the only ways to keep up.
One of the first stories i was told of D&D was of a party internal thief.

My dad used to play, and I, at 10 year old, was hugely interested. He was playing an elven thief. He'd be shady and sneaky. This one time post combat, the party are healing and recouping, and he just catches the DMs eye and makes a subtle hand gesture. The party found nowt but a few crappy weapons, when they searched the bodies. End of the night the DM hands him a note detailing what he'd found.
Months later the party are dealing with some super natural big bad (possibly a demon?) who demands they hand over an amulet he insists they took from one of his preists. The party has no idea what he's going on about. Only Dad's elf knows and he's not speaking up. I can't remember the resolution but I don't think it went well for the party.

I think the best part of this is not only did the characters not know he's been skimming, but the players didn't either.

I'd have to ask if you are thinking on "paying more attention" to the rogues actions and searching, why you hadn't in the past but are now. What has caused this change (in character). If you were routinely checking then fair enough, but you weren't and now you want to? Why?

That said as DM I'd be having the rogue make theivery rolls against the parties passive perceptions (possibly with a bonus, because of the trust of being in the party). This would mean that either a) it forces the rogue to limit her skimming (probably to when she finds something really good). or b) she's gonna get caught eventually and brought to whatever party justice goes on out there.


In my current group this wouldn't happen (we're not Role-play enough, a lot more hack and slash), personally I'd welcome the roleplay if it did.
I'm the party rogue in both our games.
My 4E halfling rogue, is a somewhat stupid, and totally untrusted, psycho. The party is always watching over his shoulder, even if they trusted him enough not to steal off them (they don't) they wouldn't trust him enough not to get himself, or all of them in trouble.
My 3.5E changling beguiler is more likely to get away with it, more trusted and smarter he's pick the right moment to pinch a gem or two if he was going to do it. He's earned their trust first.

I'd question the party scruitinizing the beguiler, but not my halfling.
Considering I got that price directly from the DMG, I'm fairly certain it's right. Let's see 150 for the chainmail, 150 for masterwork and 1000 for the +1 bonus. It's on page 216, if you'd like to check it.

QUOTE]

The OP is playing 4E so the chainmail is only 360 gp. I assume your looking at 3E as magic items are no longer in the DMG.

To the OP how big were the statues, it seems to me like they wouldn't be easy to hide even if they were only a foot or so tall.
You should definately not kick the player, and really, why do you need to "go talk with him"? I see this problem as you are metagaming, or using playing player knowledge your character wouldn't have.

If the party trusts you, there's no reason for them to endlessly roll perception on you every time you loot a body, or roll insight every time you lie to them. I've had games ruined where I made a character who excells at bluff, and every time he lied, no matter how small of a lie it was, everybody in the entire party rolled insight. It was exceedingly lame.

The same can be said for thievery. So he seals some stuff, big deal. You can't just suddenly perception check him every time something happens. As a DM I'd probably penalize you if you did that because you're metagaming.

Unfortunately, a lot of DMs don't moderate this kind of behavior. I usually test PCs in a new game - something like I make foul-tasting soup all alone - and if they refuse to eat it without even smelling it, then I know they are metagame fiends.
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