GARGANTUAN AND COLOSSAL WEAPONS! and the lack of support that comes with them.

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one of my PC has recently found out about bugbears being playable. (he is relativly new to 4e and D&D to begin with) and he has decided to build a character around weilding as inhumanly possible of a weapon.

not to say that i don't encourage this. i actually support it. it is the fact that 4e tried rather hard to keep gargantuan/colossal weapons out of PC hands that sends me here for some advice.

as far as i know he is making a bugbear fighter MC into warden to take the lifegiver. finally taking the ED Eternal Defender.  this allows him to wield weapons 3 sizes larger then a normal medium 2 handed. he has chosen the Mordenkrad for its starting dice size. this turns the mordenkrad from 2d6>2d8>2d10>(i can only assume 2d12) i believe he wants to attempt to get his hands on the swordmage utility "Giant's Might" for an additonal increase. my guess is this drops this down to 4d6 (though 6d4/3d8 would also work though more imbalanced especially d4s with brutal).
if he does that means he will be wielding a colossal sized mordenkrad.

problem. colossal's don't exist in 4E as well as im not quite sure how much the weapon should even weigh. to quote him "i want a weapon so heavy that just carrying it on my shoulders cracks the very road i walk apon" "wherever i fall in battle shall be a weapon so large that only the gods could dare to move it from my resting place, all the better if one chooses to"


i was just wondering if any one had some 2 cents to chip in on this subject. should i adept the old 3.5 rules on its weight if i do this makes it only weigh 192 pounds. not nearly enough to make it "unmovable" like he wishes i was thinking somewhere in the ball park of 450-1200 pounds would suffice.

i also couldn't find any rules on how much a larger creatures can carry. (id be fine with the old standard of 3.5 2x) are the even any feats that increase carrying capacity? as far as i can tell he will have 28 strength allowing him to lift 560 before encumbrence (on that note the ioun stone of strength wouldn't effect this or am i wrong?)

im up for any opinions/info on this. 2 cents to help him lift more or to help make his character. or just any opinions on how a colossal weapon would fight/how to make it fight legally in 4E. 

if you need any other info just ask ill do my best to supply it.
Oddly, the 4e Character Optimization board could probably provide some good advice on the subject (they've doubtlessly pondering such a thing before).
As soon as you're talking about how much something actually weighs in the game, give up and start over.

He can have all the aspects of the weapon that he wants narratively. There's no need to try to make it make physical sense, and it won't if you stick with the rules.

I didn't think 4e bothered with weapon sizes at all. Weapons don't do damage based on their size so much as based on the character, monster, or power. A PC's greatsword should do the same amount of damage no matter how large it becomes, even if that greatsword was taken off a creature that was doing far more damage with it. That damage is inherent to that creature, not to the weapon.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

one of my PC has recently found out about bugbears being playable. (he is relativly new to 4e and D&D to begin with) and he has decided to build a character around weilding as inhumanly possible of a weapon.

not to say that i don't encourage this. i actually support it. it is the fact that 4e tried rather hard to keep gargantuan/colossal weapons out of PC hands that sends me here for some advice.

as far as i know he is making a bugbear fighter MC into warden to take the lifegiver. finally taking the ED Eternal Defender.  this allows him to wield weapons 3 sizes larger then a normal medium 2 handed. he has chosen the Mordenkrad for its starting dice size. this turns the mordenkrad from 2d6>2d8>2d10>(i can only assume 2d12) i believe he wants to attempt to get his hands on the swordmage utility "Giant's Might" for an additonal increase. my guess is this drops this down to 4d6 (though 6d4/3d8 would also work though more imbalanced especially d4s with brutal).
if he does that means he will be wielding a colossal sized mordenkrad.



Some rules-guys will help you with this, I'm sure.

problem. colossal's don't exist in 4E as well as im not quite sure how much the weapon should even weigh. to quote him "i want a weapon so heavy that just carrying it on my shoulders cracks the very road i walk apon" "wherever i fall in battle shall be a weapon so large that only the gods could dare to move it from my resting place, all the better if one chooses to"



The player has already given it all the fictional weight it needs. Don't worry about the actual mechanic outwide of what a regular weapon weighs in the PHB. It IS a weapon that cracks the very ground. It IS only movable by the gods, etc. because the player said so. Just say "Yes" to the idea.

i was just wondering if any one had some 2 cents to chip in on this subject. should i adept the old 3.5 rules on its weight if i do this makes it only weigh 192 pounds. not nearly enough to make it "unmovable" like he wishes i was thinking somewhere in the ball park of 450-1200 pounds would suffice.



As far as the fiction is concerned, it's epically big like that. The mechanics need not be changed. One of the characters in a campaign I run is a ripoff of the Incredible Hulk. He's 6th-level and refluffs his maul as fists. He still writes down the encumbrance for a maul on his sheet and otherwise does what the mechanics say for using a maul. You could do the same thing here.

i also couldn't find any rules on how much a larger creatures can carry. (id be fine with the old standard of 3.5 2x) are the even any feats that increase carrying capacity? as far as i can tell he will have 28 strength allowing him to lift 560 before encumbrence (on that note the ioun stone of strength wouldn't effect this or am i wrong?)



This won't matter if you just let him say his weapon weighs a lot and leave the mechanics alone.

im up for any opinions/info on this. 2 cents to help him lift more or to help make his character. or just any opinions on how a colossal weapon would fight/how to make it fight legally in 4E. 

if you need any other info just ask ill do my best to supply it.



I notice you mention 3.5 a lot. 4e is a very different game for many reasons. One of the biggest differences is how separable the mechanics and the fiction can be. There is less focus on the simulation in 4e than in previous editions. Approaching gameplay with a similar reduction in that focus can produce better results.

No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues.
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Epic tier is broken enough, the reality is when your are [dice]+75 every round the relistic difference between rolling 3d8 and 3d10 is pathetically negligable.

But, i believe the 4e "dice increase" actually stops increasing the die size and jsut starts fluctating between d6 and d8, so something like 2d6>2d8>3d6>3d8>4d6

And um, btw, he won't be able to get that swordmage utility as a bugbear fighter/warden/PP?/Eternal Defender, so he probably caps out at 3d8b1. 

Admittedly, 3d8b1 sounds like a lot of damage, and averages to 15 dmg per [w].
So most (epic tier) at wills will doing roughly 30+mods, and if he puts in enough effort to get decent mods he could probably come close to striker benchmarks.
But really, most fighters reach striker baseline in epic tier so that's just par for the course; and it seems unlikely that this build could push those limits...

Meh, 3d8b1 sounds fine to me.


FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
there isn't information on weight of ginormous weapons because YAWN, that said, narrative weight is fine, he will be able to carry a ridiculous amount anyway with Eternal Defender and it can be fluffed as uncarryable by anything short of huge/gargantuan

I didn't think 4e bothered with weapon sizes at all. Weapons don't do damage based on their size



they did, and they do, its in the PHB pg 220 1d12->2d6->2d8->2d10 is as far as they defined it, the weapon is sized for the creature, the options the OP's player is taking specifically let it use weapons sized for larger than medium creatures, that's the whole point
they did, and they do, its in the PHB pg 220 1d12->2d6->2d8->2d10 is as far as they defined it, the weapon is sized for the creature,

Ok. I'd still be surprised if monster powers consistently reflected this.

 the options the OP's player is taking specifically let it use weapons sized for larger than medium creatures, that's the whole point

There's quite a bit more to the eternal defender than that. There are a number of other cool features that could stand in place of Godlike Stature, or different ways "godlike stature" (and even a larger weapon) could be represented.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Epic tier is broken enough, the reality is when your are [dice]+75 every round the relistic difference between rolling 3d8 and 3d10 is pathetically negligable.

But, i believe the 4e "dice increase" actually stops increasing the die size and jsut starts fluctating between d6 and d8, so something like 2d6>2d8>3d6>3d8>4d6

And um, btw, he won't be able to get that swordmage utility as a bugbear fighter/warden/PP?/Eternal Defender, so he probably caps out at 3d8b1. 

Admittedly, 3d8b1 sounds like a lot of damage, and averages to 15 dmg per [w].
So most (epic tier) at wills will doing roughly 30+mods, and if he puts in enough effort to get decent mods he could probably come close to striker benchmarks.
But really, most fighters reach striker baseline in epic tier so that's just par for the course; and it seems unlikely that this build could push those limits...

Meh, 3d8b1 sounds fine to me.



you are correct. but there was talk of eternal seeker to jack eternal defenders 24 feature. and get his hands on the swordmage gian'ts might (though he won't be of "god like" stature.
this has nothing to do with anything, but I really hope he uses his background to get training in stealth because a 9ft tall 500lb bugbear needs stealth training
he is actually going to be a plate wearer. and he is making charsima his tetrary so he can bluff that he is not a bugbear but instead a goliath to avoid conflict with towns/cities.
this has nothing to do with anything, but I really hope he uses his background to get training in stealth because a 9ft tall 500lb bugbear needs stealth training

also. how can a striker do [dice]+75 each round with an at will? there aren't enough bonuses to damage for all strikers to do that much.

you also miss understand. its [4d6/2d12] for 1[w] at epic thats 8d6/4d12 at will+ mods
Lots of tapping of vulnerability, and multi-attacking, basically.  At epic, it's fairly easy to get to a point where you're hitting morninglord vulnerability 4 times with a single use of Twin Strike.

For the record, a lot fo the size-increase/wield-as-if-bigger things don't actually stack.  You might want to ask in Rules Q&A to figure out whether this is all legit.
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