WGUR or WGUB Ziggurat Zoo (Dark Bant, 4c Doran etc.)

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What is Ziggurat Zoo?
Ziggurat Zoo is a four colour aggro deck -- either GWUB or GWUR -- that can run nearly any powerful creature because of the powerful land Ancient Ziggurat, and its interaction with Reflecting Pool.

More?
The main engine behind the deck is a t1 mana dork (Heirarch or Birds) to power the great 3 drops of the format out on the field by turn 2. It's like Doran Rock getting a turn 2 doran... nearly all the time.

Then you add some control elements to make the deck not auto-die to all control in the format. Tidehollow Sculler, Vendillion Clique and Gaddock Teeg can make sure that you kill them before they Wrath you.

Sprinkle in some Wilt-Leaf Liege and some Rafiq of the Many to add more mid-game oomph.


IMAGE(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku/GWUB.gif)


Cards to use
Creatures
1cmc
Noble Heirarch: The wheel of the deck, costs and pumps your army. Allows for t2 4/4 swinging ram-gang backed by a t3 Rafiq for 10 damage on t3. Run 4 and don't ask questions.

Birds of Paradise: Finishes fixing your remaining colours by providing . It flies for late-game damage with Doran, Hammer, Liege or Rafiq. Run 3 or 4.

Llanowar Elves: Extra manadorks if you want to run more than 8, but other than that there is no other reason to run them. They have no where near the power level of Heirarch or Birds.

Scattershot Archer: Very good against Fae, and moderately good against Procession Tokens. A strong SB inclusion.
2cmc
You're ultimate goal is to skip the 2cmc slot via a mana guy. However, some 2 drops are just to good to not use.

Gaddock Teeg: One of the best controlling creatures for the deck. It rarely to never slows you down, and it can put a lot of hurt on your opponent depending on their archetype. Shutting down Procession and Ajani is strong against a lot of decks. It also stops Wrath.

Tidehollow Sculler: You've seen it in Standard and in Extended. It's a 2/2 walking thoughtseize with RFG and no lifeloss. Beat with it or force them to kill it and get their card back. They've lost tempo all the same. Run some in GWUB decks. Between the MD and the SB you should have at least three.

Knight of Meadowgrain: A decent SB swap-out for Sculler/Teeg against RDW.
3cmc
Boggart Ram-Gang: a 3/3 you can play 100% of the time with the right land base. Sweet. Oh, wait. It also has haste... And wither... And you can use it to swing for 4 on turn 2. Run 4 of him.

Vendillion Clique: ...

{The rest is coming within the course of the week.}

[c]Woolly Thoctar{...}




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Matchups
Coming... but not soon. Soon is very relative.


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Decklists made by board members
Patrick Chapin's Heirarch.dec
[deck=Heirarch.dec]// Lands
4*Murmuring Bosk
2*Treetop Village
4*Ancient Ziggurat
2*Reflecting Pool
3*Llanowar Wastes
2*Yavimaya Coast
2*Brushland
1*Adarkar Wastes
2*Forest

// Creatures
4*Noble Heirarch
4*Birds of Paradise
2*Llanowar Elves
4*Tidehollow Sculler
4*Doran, the Siege Tower
4*Rhox War Monk
4*Rafiq of the Many
3*Wilt-Leaf Liege
2*Cloudthresher

// Spells
3*Path to Exile
2*Nameless Inversion
2*Loxodon Warhammer[/deck]
A-Team's GWUR Bant Rage
[deck= Bant Rage 1.0]// Lands
3*Seaside Citadel
3*Treetop Village
2*Jungle Shrine
4*Ancient Ziggurat
2*Brushland
2*Yavimaya Coast
1*Adarkar Wastes
1*Battlefield Forge
1*Karplusan Forest
2*Forest
1*Plains

// Creatures
4*Noble Heirarch
4*Birds of Paradise
3*Gaddock Teeg
4*Rhox War Monk
4*Woolly Thoctar
2*Kitchen Finks
4*Wilt-leaf Liege
3*Rafiq of the Many

// Spells
4*Oblivion Ring
3*Lash Out
2*Path to Exile
1*Loxodon Warhammer

// Sideboard
4*Scattershot Archers
3*Guttural Response
2*Path to Exile
2*Relic of Progenitus
2*Volcanic Fallout
2*Kitchen Finks[/deck]


Decklists that have T8'd
Brian Robinson (T4 PT: Kyoto)
[deck=Four Colour Doran]// Lands
3*Treetop Village
4*Murmuring Bosk
4*Ancient Ziggurat
2*Yavimaya Coast
2*Brushland
1*Adarkar Wastes
1*Caves of Koilos
1*Llanowar Wastes
2*Forest
1*Plains
1*Swamp

// Creatures
4*Birds of Paradise
4*Noble Hierarch
4*Tidehollow Sculler
3*Gaddock Teeg
4*Doran, the Siege Tower
4*Rhox War Monk
2*Kitchen Finks
4*Wilt-Leaf Liege
3*Rafiq of the Many

// Spells
3*Nameless Inversion
2*Path to Exile
1*Loxodon Warhammer

// Sideboard
4*Scattershot Archer
3*Guttural Response
2*Kitchen Finks
2*Path to Exile
2*Relic of Progenitus
2*Terror[/deck]


IMAGE(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku/RGWU.gif)


Special Thanks to...
* Team 0-2 Drop for helping this deck's evolution independent of Chapin.
* Chapin for releasing the deck idea to the world.
* Robinson for getting a T4 in PT: Kyoto with the archetype and proving its worth. And everyone who allowed him to get there (aka the people who lost to him).
* The A-Team for being very nice and cooperative, and willingly giving up their OP stakes to come work here.
* People who have contributed positively to this discussion and archetype.

IMAGE(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/Hodoku/GWUB.gif)

Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
I had posted a list earlier... can't remember what the thread was called. But anyways, this deck is pretty decent. Noobstick is very good in this deck, so you can make each and every creature a beast.
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I had posted a list earlier... can't remember what the thread was called.

I believe there was a stint of this in the RDW thread, but no actual threads posted.

But anyways, this deck is pretty decent. Noobstick is very good in this deck, so you can make each and every creature a beast.

Is noobstick too expensive in the deck?

On one hand it's three to play and three to equip and you can't use Zig mana, but on the other, I do like the trample and have found myself with six lands on the board.

I also don't love its anti-synergy with Doran.

Also, how should I make room for it?
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Don't. If you run 1 equipment, run quietus spike. All your dorks kill twice as fast.
Don't. If you run 1 equipment, run quietus spike. All your dorks kill twice as fast.

Warhammer would be better. The trample is really good.

If your guys are connecting, you should be winning fast enough that you won't need Spike.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Don't. If you run 1 equipment, run quietus spike. All your dorks kill twice as fast.

Ew. That card sucks.

@ Greg: There's a thread somewhere in deck help. But, who cares. It's really more like a turn 5 card that you drop to make your topdecked creatures into threats.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Ew. That card sucks.

@ Greg: There's a thread somewhere in deck help. But, who cares. It's really more like a turn 5 card that you drop to make your topdecked creatures into threats.

Its not a bad card if ran right if got beat by a Farrie deck with a quietus spike add on
Its not a bad card if ran right if got beat by a Farrie deck with a quietus spike add on

Again in English, please?
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
It only sucks because its not used. Try it out and see if it works for you. I loved it in my weenie deck.

And don't jump to conclusions by calling a card sucky.
Just some of the cards that people told me sucked at the time they were not used or understood.

Tarmogoyf(I drafted 4 in a single draft because no one wanted them.)
Springleaf Drum( in affinity)
Wild Pair
Aethermage Touch
Dusk Urchins
Dragonstorm
Reveillark
Lightning Angel(During Timespiral standard)
Akroma, Angel of Vengance
Radha
Brine Elemental+Vesuvan Shapeshifter(You'll never pull it off. its too slow)
It only sucks because its not used. Try it out and see if it works for you. I loved it in my weenie deck.

And don't jump to conclusions by calling a card sucky.
Just some of the cards that people told me sucked at the time they were not used or understood.

Tarmogoyf(I drafted 4 in a single draft because no one wanted them.)
Springleaf Drum( in affinity)
Wild Pair
Aethermage Touch
Dusk Urchins
Dragonstorm
Reveillark
Lightning Angel(During Timespiral standard)
Akroma, Angel of Vengance
Radha
Brine Elemental+Vesuvan Shapeshifter(You'll never pull it off. its too slow)

Obviously untrue. Goyf is always a 2/3+ for 2, no one would pass that in draft that many times. Plus, 4 of the same rares appearing is nearly impossible, it would be less than a .1% chance.

Who the HELL ever said Lark sucked?? Or Akroma? Or Lightning Angel? And Radha DOES suck, that card blows.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Again in English, please?

its to early in the morning to be literate lol
Obviously untrue. Goyf is always a 2/3+ for 2, no one would pass that in draft that many times. Plus, 4 of the same rares appearing is nearly impossible, it would be less than a .1% chance.

Who the HELL ever said Lark sucked?? Or Akroma? Or Lightning Angel? And Radha DOES suck, that card blows.

It happened. Best explanation is the packs were from seperate boxes, but i can't say for certain.
Ive seen stranger things when it comes to percentages. Feel free to believe it or not. The point is back before the power of it was understood, and tribal and planeswalker types didn't exist, people figured it would be a 1/2 or maybe a 3/4 with some investment, and figured it wasn't worth devoting a deck to. They wrote it off as sucky before they understood it.

Anyways i was just trying to support my point that people shouldn't be so quick to write something off as sucky. Try it out and see.
Spike will not be used in my versions of the deck.
Feel free to make and try your own with spike, however.

Can we get back on topic?

@ Greg: There's a thread somewhere in deck help.

Can you link me? I haven't found one yet.

Edit: Found it. It's a popular idea so I'm not surprised it surfaced before. Obviously War Monk and Teeg in the board is a mistake, they should be main. And sadly, he hasn't gotten any replies yet.

[Warhammer is] really more like a turn 5 card that you drop to make your topdecked creatures into threats.

What should I cut for it? I assume I should run a pair.

-

In the OP, I cut the Karplusan Forest for Llanowar Wastes. I found out the only things that require red are Brion and SB Caldera Hellion. This might be a mistake. Both are all stars in the deck, but I fear they may not come down consistently.

EDIT: I'm trying a new manabase.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Here's my current list:

Move Sig

// Lands
1 [10E] Battlefield Forge
1 [10E] Adarkar Wastes
1 [10E] Yavimaya Coast
1 [10E] Karplusan Forest
1 [10E] Llanowar Wastes
1 [10E] Brushland
2 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [CNF] Ancient Ziggurat
1 [EVE] Flooded Grove
1 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
2 [CNF] Exotic Orchard
1 [ALA] Island (4)

// Creatures
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
3 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [ALA] Tower Gargoyle
3 [LRW] Brion Stoutarm
3 [SHM] Boggart Ram-Gang

// Spells
3 [CNF] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Reveillark
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
SB: 3 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 3 [ALA] Caldera Hellion
SB: 2 [10E] Primal Rage


Fun deck, MD Teeg is awesome.

And Warhammer is not needed.
Team GFG: Great Flatbread Gangsters
Accomplishments
Top 8 Charlotte Regionals 2011- Qualified for Nationals 1st place TCG Player Qualifier- Qualified for TCG Player Championship 2nd place SCG Invitational Qualifier Top 32 SCG Charlotte Open 2011 (7-2, stupid tiebreakers)
MTGO name: Battle7
How reliably do you think you can cast Naya Charm. Seems good here.
Currently Running This

// Lands
2 [10E] Yavimaya Coast
1 [10E] Brushland
3 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [CNF] Ancient Ziggurat
2 [CNF] Exotic Orchard
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [MOR] Murmuring Bosk
2 [10E] Llanowar Wastes
1 [EVE] Battlefield Forge
1 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
2 [10E] Karplusan Forest

// Creatures
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [ALA] Tower Gargoyle
3 [LRW] Brion Stoutarm
4 [SHM] Boggart Ram-Gang
2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege (Filler)

// Spells
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
1 [LRW] Lash Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Something
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 3 [ALA] Caldera Hellion
SB: 4 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
SB: 2 [LRW] Lash Out
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize


In my long search for more reach and evasion, I'm thinking about Tower Above. The pros being that it hits hard and acts as psuedo-removal, the cons being that it is one use and opens up you getting 2-for-1'd.

Thoughts on any of that?
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Currently Running This

// Lands
2 [10E] Yavimaya Coast
1 [10E] Brushland
3 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [CNF] Ancient Ziggurat
2 [CNF] Exotic Orchard
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [MOR] Murmuring Bosk
2 [10E] Llanowar Wastes
1 [EVE] Battlefield Forge
1 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
2 [10E] Karplusan Forest

// Creatures
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [ALA] Tower Gargoyle
3 [LRW] Brion Stoutarm
4 [SHM] Boggart Ram-Gang
2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
1 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege (Filler)

// Spells
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
1 [LRW] Lash Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Something
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 3 [ALA] Caldera Hellion
SB: 4 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
SB: 2 [LRW] Lash Out
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize


In my long search for more reach and evasion, I'm thinking about Tower Above. The pros being that it hits hard and acts as psuedo-removal, the cons being that it is one use and opens up you getting 2-for-1'd.

Thoughts on any of that?

Tower Above seems like it could be okay as a 1-2 of. It acts as removal, which is nice. Teeg shuts it down, though, so it might not be a good idea.

List:
I think you should take out the Liege for another Sculler.

I wish you could find room for some Thoctars; I still love them.
Team GFG: Great Flatbread Gangsters
Accomplishments
Top 8 Charlotte Regionals 2011- Qualified for Nationals 1st place TCG Player Qualifier- Qualified for TCG Player Championship 2nd place SCG Invitational Qualifier Top 32 SCG Charlotte Open 2011 (7-2, stupid tiebreakers)
MTGO name: Battle7
Teeg shuts it down, though, so it might not be a good idea.

Ah yes, that's a problem.

I think you should take out the Liege for another Sculler.

I want 8 quality four-drops, but 4 Brion doesn't work because he's legendary. The reason is I don't like the times when I'm stuck with just Teeg and Sculler to swing into the end zone.

I wish you could find room for some Thoctars; I still love the.

Thoctars are just like additonal Dorans that can be flung with Brion. They aren't better than Doran, Rhox, Ram-Gang, Gargoyle or Brion, so I don't really want to fit them in.

-

Here's a removal question.

I want to run Lash Outs because they have the option of hitting an extra three to the face. However, our low curve prevents this from happening a lot, and your opponent gets more advantage from the draw fixing than you do.

Should I focus on Lash Out because of the additional damage?

Or Incinerate because it can hit the face, even though our removal nearly always is used to clear blockers?

Or Terror, because it -- like path, just kills the creature straight up?

Or Oblivion Ring because it removes MTG_Fan and planeswalkers in addition to blockers?
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Don't really see anything wrong with Chameleon Colossus...
Noble Hierarch is powerful enough to make a deck like this work, although I seriously question the manabase and some of the creature choices. Pure Stompy doesn't work, and it never has. I would take out the Stoutarms and the Tower Gargoyles for something better.

A few vivid lands seem in order, you can play them on turn two if you don't have a three drop.

Also lol at the guy who said he drafted four Goyfs in a single draft.
Noble Hierarch is powerful enough to make a deck like this work, although I seriously question the manabase and some of the creature choices. Pure Stompy doesn't work, and it never has. I would take out the Stoutarms and the Tower Gargoyles for something better.

Are you thinking something more mid-range like with Broodmates?

If you had to slap something with a ziggurat build around me in like three minutes, what would be your list?

Edit: Another good removal might be Agony Warp.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Are you thinking something more mid-range like with Broodmates?

If you had to slap something with a ziggurat build around me in like three minutes, what would be your list?

Edit: Another good removal might be Agony Warp.

No, not midrange. Just better cards then what you are currently playing. Tower Gargoyle and Brion? Play Rafiq and Colossus. Why are you playing red anyway? 4 colors are definitely enough colors.

4x Hierarch
4x Birds
1x Llanowar Elf
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x RWM
4x Doran
2x Colossus
3x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Rafiq of the Many

4x Path to Exile
3x Nameless Inversion

and then a manabase featuring 0 Exotic Orchard and 4 Murmuring Bosk.

I don't know what competitive advantage this would have however, seems pretty bad against Faeries and pretty marginal against 5-color.
Can you link me? I haven't found one yet.

Edit: Found it. It's a popular idea so I'm not surprised it surfaced before. Obviously War Monk and Teeg in the board is a mistake, they should be main. And sadly, he hasn't gotten any replies yet.

Here is the thread with decklists from me and Islands.
It only sucks because its not used. Try it out and see if it works for you. I loved it in my weenie deck.

And don't jump to conclusions by calling a card sucky.
Just some of the cards that people told me sucked at the time they were not used or understood.

Tarmogoyf(I drafted 4 in a single draft because no one wanted them.)
Springleaf Drum( in affinity)
Wild Pair
Aethermage Touch
Dusk Urchins
Dragonstorm
Reveillark
Lightning Angel(During Timespiral standard)
Akroma, Angel of Vengance
Radha
Brine Elemental+Vesuvan Shapeshifter(You'll never pull it off. its too slow)

Its not good in this deck because if he is hitting he is hitting with huge creatures and the spike MIGHT make them die a turn quicker, maybe, the spike is a lot better in a deck with a lot of weenie creatures and tokens so that they hit for more than 1
radha doesn't suck, she's just not good. atleast she's pretty cool.


there's things i like and dislike about both decks that are posted in the O.P.
i'm only going to comment on the team's deck since, well, chapin would not want my advice, and i'm sure the team doesn't want me to give advice on a deck that's not theirs.

so anyway

tower gargoyle? really? i don't like it.

i would switched teeg and sculler's numbers
3 gaddock teeg and 4 tidehollow sculler. teeg is legendary, and not always useful.

i kind of like the rafiq in chapins deck, but you run so many creatures, most of which want to be attacking, i'm just not really sure why it's in there.

this is what i think, since you are running so many creatures, you need to be running some creatures that give you control. in place of tower gargoyle i would run a few sower of temptation and maybe another creature or 2 that will make your opponent discard or something. just another utility creature, since you already have enough main beaters.
you already have gaddock teeg and tidehollow sculler to help you keep control of the game/keep it going in your favor, and i just think sower of temptation would be the icing on the cake.

so -4 tower gargoyle (i'm just not sure why you were running this)
and +3 sower of temptation +1 other utility creature. or maybe even just +4 sower of temptation. it'll help against both aggro and control. you know why against aggro, but against control, you don't run that much removal, so this could be part of your removal suite.
That second list is kewl. I'll be playing that for awhile I think.
tower gargoyle? really? i don't like it.

i would switched teeg and sculler's numbers
3 gaddock teeg and 4 tidehollow sculler. teeg is legendary, and not always useful.

i kind of like the rafiq in chapins deck, but you run so many creatures, most of which want to be attacking, i'm just not really sure why it's in there.

this is what i think, since you are running so many creatures, you need to be running some creatures that give you control. in place of tower gargoyle i would run a few sower of temptation and maybe another creature or 2 that will make your opponent discard or something. just another utility creature, since you already have enough main beaters.
you already have gaddock teeg and tidehollow sculler to help you keep control of the game/keep it going in your favor, and i just think sower of temptation would be the icing on the cake.

so -4 tower gargoyle (i'm just not sure why you were running this)
and +3 sower of temptation +1 other utility creature. or maybe even just +4 sower of temptation. it'll help against both aggro and control. you know why against aggro, but against control, you don't run that much removal, so this could be part of your removal suite.

Tower Gargoyle is in there because of the need of an evasive beater. A 4/4 for 4 with flying is pretty good.

Sower was discussed but was decided it wasn't aggressive enough. After playing with Sower in both a Lark deck and a Faerie deck you don't play it as readily as you think. As a 4 of it would be way too much for any deck, 3 of MD in still pretty unheard of. The problem is against control its a dead card because they are rarely going to let it hit the field and if they do they have a removal card waiting for it
Thoughtseize over sculler imo. If you actually get to lay beats w/ sculler it's just win-more.
Tower Gargoyle is in there because of the need of an evasive beater. A 4/4 for 4 with flying is pretty good.

Sower was discussed but was decided it wasn't aggressive enough. After playing with Sower in both a Lark deck and a Faerie deck you don't play it as readily as you think. As a 4 of it would be way too much for any deck, 3 of MD in still pretty unheard of. The problem is against control its a dead card because they are rarely going to let it hit the field and if they do they have a removal card waiting for it

Rafiq is waaaaaaay better than Sower or Gargoyle.

Turn 1: Hierarch
Turn 2: Doran
Turn 3 Rafiq

14 damage on turn 3 is quite good. Put RWM in Doran's slot and create a 24 point life-swing.
Thoughtseize over sculler imo. If you actually get to lay beats w/ sculler it's just win-more.

Its a creature centric deck

You can't play thoughtseize off of Zig

Beating with a Sculler isn't win-more, its the reason to run Sculler. It will often come down before control's counter shield and while you keep pumping out threats that are getting countered they can't lay down any of their own and you beat with Sculler
Here is the thread with decklists from me and Islands.

Thanks, I can't believe I missed that.

tower gargoyle? really? i don't like it.

so -4 tower gargoyle (i'm just not sure why you were running this)

It's being run entirely because it has evasion.

Similarly, Brion is being run for the fling-based reach on a 4/4 lifelink body.

i would switched teeg and sculler's numbers
3 gaddock teeg and 4 tidehollow sculler. teeg is legendary, and not always useful.

That sounds fair. Teeg does ruin a lot of decks, though, so I'd want to see him as much as I can.

i kind of like the rafiq in chapins deck, but you run so many creatures, most of which want to be attacking, i'm just not really sure why it's in there.

I don't really like Rafiq.

He's obviously really good if you go Heirarch --> Doran --> Rafiq and then swing for 14, but otherwise I'd rather use Wilt-Leaf Liege.

Rafiq is nice, but when I used him, he just sat there not swinging and allowed me to swing into chump blockers with large lifelink totals.

And I hate swinging with just one guy that doesn't have evasion.

this is what i think, since you are running so many creatures, you need to be running some creatures that give you control. in place of tower gargoyle i would run a few sower of temptation

That would cut a decent amount of aggressiveness from the list. Sowers are only good against aggro. They seem like a board card, maybe an MD 2 of at best.

4 Teeg, 4 Sculler is an awful lot of utility. Another utility idea that still beats and evades is Vendillion Clique. I want to try that.

It's much easier to spend two mana to remove their blocker than to spend four to steal it.

you already have gaddock teeg and tidehollow sculler to help you keep control of the game/keep it going in your favor, and i just think sower of temptation would be the icing on the cake.

The idea certainly has merit, though.

it'll help against both aggro and control. you know why against aggro, but against control, you don't run that much removal, so this could be part of your removal suite.

How does it help against control?
It's not hard for them to fix it and get their creature back.

No, not midrange. Just better cards then what you are currently playing. Tower Gargoyle and Brion? Play Rafiq and Colossus.

Why Colossus?

Why are you playing red anyway? 4 colors are definitely enough colors.

I liked Brion's reach and Caldera Hellion from the board blew up a lot of aggro decks, especially tokens.

4x Hierarch
4x Birds
1x Llanowar Elf
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x RWM
4x Doran
2x Colossus
3x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Rafiq of the Many

4x Path to Exile
3x Nameless Inversion

I like this list, though.

and then a manabase featuring 0 Exotic Orchard and 4 Murmuring Bosk.

If there ever was a deck that could use Exotic Orchard it would be this one. Any colour they give us is beneficial, and we don't have to worry about it being inconsistent with filter lands because we don't have any.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Why not run one or two Treetop Village in the manabase? Too shaky? I suppose it CITP. But the trample is nice.
Why not run one or two Treetop Village in the manabase? Too shaky? I suppose it CITP. But the trample is nice.

CIPT and tapping for only are way too annoying.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Rafiq is waaaaaaay better than Sower or Gargoyle.

Turn 1: Hierarch
Turn 2: Doran
Turn 3 Rafiq

14 damage on turn 3 is quite good. Put RWM in Doran's slot and create a 24 point life-swing.

Actually it's a 20 point life-swing (RWM is a 3/4, not a 4/4, I think that was your mistake)
Actually it's a 20 point life-swing (RWM is a 3/4, not a 4/4, I think that was your mistake)

Well, twenty point life swings are still kinda good.
My list:

// Lands
4 [CON] Ancient Ziggurat
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [10E] Yavimaya Coast
4 [10E] Llanowar Wastes
2 [10E] Brushland
2 [10E] Adarkar Wastes

// Creatures
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
4 [CON] Noble Hierarch
1 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many

// Spells
4 [10E] Commune with Nature
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [10E] Loxodon Warhammer
3 [CON] Path to Exile
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring


All the explosiveness of the other lists BUT I can drop T2 Teeg/Sculler vs control every game if need be.
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yeah, vendilion clique could be pretty good in here. i would test it out.

sower would help against control because it would slow them down, and make them use a removal spell on it. yeah, it won't be hard for them to fix it, but they have to spend time to fix it while you beat with other stuff. also, it's good alongside brion. fling the stolen creature and they can't get it back anyway. yeah, this won't always work because control is, well, control, but it's always nice to have some psuedo-removal built into your creatures when you're only running 5 removal spells. and like i said the synergy with brion is stupid.
maybe 2 of sower and 2 of clique? or something to that effect. or 1 and 3. yeah, the gargoyle is a flying 4/4 for 4, but i'd rather see sower or clique or any combination of the 2 in his place.
you have a fair ammount of aggressive beaters already.
Wow friday after FNM I came home and posted the list, putting Rhox in side >.>
it got no, comments...=/ fun
Wow friday after FNM I came home and posted the list, putting Rhox in side >.>
it got no, comments...=/ fun

I guess you learned not to put Rhox in the side, then?
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
I guess you learned not to put Rhox in the side, then?

No, the deck is pretty damn good as it its at 6-1...
just saying, the lists aren't that different, this gets more posts
No, the deck is pretty damn good as it its at 6-1...
just saying, the lists aren't that different, this gets more posts

Sorry.

Is Tower Above a winner?
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
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