R/b: Blightning Beatdown

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R/b: Blightning Beatdown

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What is this decks focus?

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Blightning Beatdown (AKA "I Came for the Ram-Gang") is a flexible and powerful archetype that features the constant pressure and threats of mono red combined with synergy and card advantage gained by the heavy application of and / cards. This thread should only be used for discussion of these decks: any other mono red and red with splash ideas should be posted in the RxDW thread here.

How do I play a blightning deck?
R/b Beatdown will play efficient creatures like Figure of Destiny, Hellspark Elemental and Boggart Ram-gang, while being able to throw a wrench in your opponents plans with hand disruption like Blightning. These card choices are tailored toward recovering lost card advantage with unearth and possibly Profane Command


What are common card choices?



Creature Spells
(presented in a lowest mana cost to highest format)
(the italicized letters are the common abbreviations for the card name.)
Figure of Destiny- A one-drop that can single-handedly win a game. This card requires a special mana base, however. (one that taps for 90% red) [aka FoD, Goku, Figure]

Stigma Lasher- Another strong card drop for any deck that can pay on turn 2.

Goblin Outlander- This card is helpful if you have a lot of white in your metagame, as well as being a powerful SB choice versus Naya.

Ashenmoor Gouger- A very efficient creature with a downside that is not immense. This card has the advantage of being very easy to play in a / deck.

Boggart Ram-Gang- A fast card that can attack a larger creature advantageously. However a careful eye must be put on your mana base if you run this card: not being able to drop him turn 3 because of that lone swamp would cramp this card's efficiency.

Earwig Squad- as basically a 5/3 for 3, this card is very efficient. The ability to take cards out of your opponents' deck is icing on the cake! As such, some people swear by this card. However, if his prowl cost is not realized, he becomes a rather clunky and inefficient creature.

Shambling Remains- A newer Conflux card that has been seen as a recurring Gouger. How it will fare against the very prevalent RFG removal remains to be seen.

Nyxathid- This is a card i've been playing around with lately: basically its a pretty consistent 4/4 for three, whose ability encourages the opponent not to play cards. [aka Nyx]

Stillmoon Cavalier- The creature can be tough to play with its cost, but has protection against the two most common removal colors in the game. From blocking Wooly Thoctar to decimating B/W Toke, it can be a powerful sideboard choice.

Murderous Redcap- A card that recurs and burns a players health? These two features make murderous redcap a common choice, despite its rather hefty mana cost.

Ashenmoor Liege- The card makes your redcaps very strong, as well as improving bitterblossom tokens, gougers, etc... On top of this fact, any removal targeted at him burns the opponent for the equivalent of a flame javelin! However, this utility comes at the cost of slowing the deck down considerably.

Siege-Gang Commander- This card is very resilient to removal except board clear, and often times will end the game if he is not dealt with immediately by your opponent. This makes Siege-Gang a common choice for the high-cast card in the deck.

Demigod of Revenge- This card's reputation should proceed it, however it has fallen out of style at least in my local metagame. This is due to the common RFG removal, and opposing sideboards that hold 4-6 answers specifically for dealing with him.[aka DoR, demi]


Non-Creature Spells
(also presented according to mana cost)
(the italicized letters are the common abbreviations for the card name.)
Shock/Tarfire- These cards, while not always having a huge impact in a game, can be essential for controlling early card drops. Mana-acceleration creatures make especially good targets for an early game Shock. Tarfire is a good choice for a deck running Auntie's Hovel.

Magma Spray- This card is sometimes chosen over shock, often depending on ones' metagame. It removes much of the advantage from cards like Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, and anything that could be targeted by a Revelarkif the opponent is playing it.

Thoughtseize- Another powerful one-cost spell, Thoughtseize can take a hand that the opponent thinks is quite viable and make it rather disadvantageous.

Bitterblossom- This enchantment purchases a swarm of 1/1 fliers, using your own life. It can single-handedly turn the tide of combat, but at the same time makes you a juicy target for Banefire. it can be considered a 'card advantage' generator, and so is commonly played in this type of deck.[aka BB]

Incinerate- A staple burn spell, which can be used for removing creatures and causing damage to the opponent.

Flame Javelin- This card answers many common beefy creatures, i.e., Chameleon Colossus, Woolly Thoctar, Mistbind Clique, and many other four toughness creatures. At the same time, the four damage that it deals is equivalent to one fifth of the opponents life.

Blightning- The decks namesake, Blightning generates hand disruption and additionally works as a player-only incinerate.

Infest- While rarely seen in the mainboard, this card has much potential as an anti-elves/kithkin. It easily handles the common white sideboard card Burrington Forge Tender.

Wild Riccochet- Another common sideboard card. This card can deal with those pesky banefire, as well as being excellent in the mirror. There's nothing like having an opponent play Blightning into your Wild Ricochet.

Banefire- A card that usually beats the #1 deck in the format, and can insure the lategame win even against rampant permission.

Everlasting Torment- This enchantment is a 'blanket' anser for many common white card choices that hurt red decks. Among the cards it answers are mark of asylum, story circle, anything with life gain, etc... [aka ELT]


Lands

Ghitu Encampment- A staple red manland that evades most board clear.

Spawning Pool- A rarely used manland that can regenerate.

Auntie's Hovel- A very versatile / source that works best with a good amount of goblins in your deck.

Graven Cairns- the / an excellent multicolor land, whose disadvantage rarely comes into effect, and can fuel infest and other cards easily.

Sulfurous Springs- A multicolor staple. Just watch out for that ping.

Reflecting Pool- the card allows a blightning deck to have 16 black sources that all provide black and red mana.


Sample Decklists



2009 Japan finals


6th place Ken Adams
Creatures
4 Boggart Ram-gang
4 Figure Of Destiny
4 Goblin Outlander
4 Hellspark Elemental
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Shambling Remains

Non-Creatures
4 Flame Javelin
4 Incinerate
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Blightning

Lands
5 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Ghitu Encampment
4 Graven Cairns
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Sulfurous Springs

Sideboard:
2 Dragon's Claw
4 Demigod Of Revenge
2 Terror
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Wild Ricochet
4 Infest




Commonly Played Decklists


Good Sygg Dot Dec

(thanks to Adam_Larson/Deathron for the list)
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Graven Cairns
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Mountain
3 Ghitu Encampment

4 Figure of Destiny
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Goblin Outlander
4 Boggart Ram-Gang

4 Incinerate
4 Flame Javelin
4 Blightning






Goblin Blightning

25 land
4 aunties hovel
4 graven cairns
4 sulferous spring
3 ghitu encampment
5 mountain
3 reflecting pool
2 mutavault

18 creatures
4 mogg fanatic
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
3 goblin outlander
4 earwig squad
2 siege gang commander
1 Voracious Dragon

4 bitterblossom
4 incinerate
4 flame javelin
4 blightning
1 loxodon warhammer
17 non-creature

sideboard
4 volcanic fallout
2 banefire
2 profane command
2 infest
1 goblin outlander
4 everlasting torment


-------------------


Personal Tourney Experiences

Blossom Blightning

Tourney 1:

match 1- mono white knights, with armored ascension. 2/0

match 2- mono white kithkin, a very efficient build but not very experienced player. 1/2

match 3- Jund aggro jank.dec. 2/0, mostly because I killed many of his creatures and he couldn't answer mine. Won game 2 with a topdecked Banefire. ^^

match 4- efficient fae build with a moderately skilled player. game one I lost with a misplay, game 2 I SB'd Chandra in (was trying her out in SB), and she won the game for me by dropping my opponents Razermane Masticore (he was trying it out lol). Game 3 I won after my opponent misplayed.

match 5 (top 8)- the same kithkin deck that beat me earlier. This time I drew a bit luckier, won 2-0 in a very close match.

At this point I was top 4, and we drew out. A good run.

Tourney 2:

match 1- esper aggro jank.dec 2/0, but it was a bit close because he got a bit of card advantage in, and ran a bunch of PTE

match 2- 5ccontrol, not very efficent build. 2/1

Match 3- Jund Ramp: with mannequin. A very tough matchup, that included me getting several lands in a row. 0/2.

Match 4- 4 color bant control. efficient build. misplay on his part lost game 1. game 2 i hit him with 3 blightning. 2/0

This store does not play top four, only places by the matches. I got third.

Tourney 3 (24k)

match 1- revelark control with obelisk of alara. Game 1 he got a good draw and also gained 25 life with the obelisk. However I still beat him with my singleton Liliana Vess that i've been trying out, by grabbing 2 siege gangs and chucking them at him. However I made a rules mistake that resulted in a match loss in between the first and second games. 0/x

match 2- mirror match. The player was an old school guy, wasn't super-familiar with newer cards (and so he made several play mistakes against Nyxathid. However I kept my bitterblossoms in, which ended up making me a juicy burn target. 0/2

match 3- green aggro jank. Game one, the deck ran very smoothly: i had a tarfire when he played imperious perfect, incinerate when he played wren's run vanquisher, and flame javelin when he played Chameleon Colossus. Game 2, i dropped a BB turns 2 and 3: and he evoked his cloud thresher right as I was about to swing for the game. Then he stalled long enough for me to die to the life loss. game 3, I should have sided bitterblossom out, but didn't. This time he managed to play the cloudthresher at a critical point against my turn 2 BB, again stalling the game for the win.

match 4- at this point I had a 0/3 record, and truly ended up playing the dregs of the tourney. A hobbled naya beats deck made easy prey. (no non-basic lands and only 2 thoctars. :p

match 5- I played this match against my roommate, who was trying the 5cc/wall variant. A very good draw sent an army of boggart ram-gang at those walls, making them great targets for the singleton chandra I drew into. A solid win.

conclusion- the large portion of my troubles were not the result of my deck, but either my lack of rules knowledge, or messy plays on my part. However I was very impressed with the other blightning deck, and so I'm going to try a new decklist with lots of unearth.

Compilation of Results
(Keep in mind that these are from only tournament matches of my own play, and might include misplays or the opponents' misfortune.)

Games Won/Lost/Played:19/9/28
Rounds won/played:9/13


Blightning Fallout

tourney 1

Note that at the time of this tourney I had blossom in this deck. I have since dropped blossom and run 4 fallout in its place for testing.
match one- budget mono red: 2/0. This game came rather close, even though the guy didn't run any flame javelin or even have a sideboard. Game two I was swinging for lethal with 7 life, and he showed me the incinerate and shock in his hand.

match 2- fae. 2/0. This player isn't at the top of the game, but he had a solid deck. Straight out good draws and Blightning timing won game one, however, some critical plays by me handed me game 2. He tried to spellstutter sprite my Blightning, and in response I tarfired the mutavault that he activated in order to have 3 fae. The misplay part was the fact that i'd revealed this tarfire two times while playing auntie's hovel.

match 3- mono white kithkin: 2/1. This deck had some odd tweaks like goldmeadow harrier. The guy claimed 'not to link net decks,' lol. It still turned out to be a close match: game one I had a not-so-good draw, and he did very well. Game 2, he played 2 BFT and an amazing 3 spectral possession However, with my life total at 10, I played my SB'd infest, took control of the board, and kept it until I won. Game 3 was almost an anti-climax, which featured my hitting him for 12 with 2 hellspark elemental.

match 4- Another Fae player, this guy was very good. His deck was also a borrowed one, very heavy on counterspells. (and very well constructed). I won game one by matching his BB with my own, and constant pressure. game two was very close. His vendillion cliques did much damage by stealing an infest, and while my hellspark's were doing good work, and I answered his mistbind clique immediately with Flame Javelin, he still carried through. I think my mistake this game was burning his creatures more than him. Game three went right to the wire, i had him at three and I was at 11, when he dropped a loxodon warhammer onto his token. This stalled out long enough for him to draw into a Cryptic, and he bounced my 8/8 figure and swung for my exact life total with loxodon'd fae, a 1/1, and a fae conclave.

FNM

(thanks to SJDB for these matchups: his build ran 4 MB outlander and 2 fallout)

Round 1: 5 Color Control (Nassif's exact 75)
Game 1: I curve nicely getting him into burn range before he can get a bomb out. I burn him out before he can Cruel me and it's on to game 2.
Game 2: This was a long game that involved me having to fight through two early plumveils. Eventually he drops a Wall of Reverence when he's at 3. I topdeck Figure and make him an 8/8 and force him to block. He bounces it and I draw my third blightning of the game to seal the victory.

Round 2: 5 Color Control
Game 1: I'm not fast enough and he resolves Cruel Ultimatum
Game 2: He drops turn 3 War Monk and turn 4 Story Circle. I draw no answer to either in my draw step and scoop'em up.

Game 3: Faeries (aka a BYE)
Game 1: Double Mogg Fanatic goes a long way and I burn him out.
Game 2: He thoughtseizes and Cliques me and I hit a land clump putting me over 10 lands for the game so he takes a close match.
Game 3: Double Mogg fanatic again with burn takes it home. His bitterblossom got him low enough so I could burn him out in a turn.

Round 4: Boat Brew
Game 1: He draws removal and no little creature. He resolves two Reveillarks but with no cards to get back they aren't a theat. I kill them and blightning away a Banefire and the last card in his hand.
Game 2: He gets stuck on two lands while I draw triple Ram-Gang

3-1 is not bad considering I had to go up against 3 unfavorable matchups. If everyone starts playing 5 color control because of Nassifs win then this deck might have some trouble.

FNM

3rd place, 3-1. my only loss was counter-heavy wall 5cc, 2-1, and one of those losses was due to me missing the third land drop and getting no black mana. game three, he kept a 2 land hand that had 2 flashfreeze and a broken ambitions, and countered all my threats.

wins:
jund ramp, 2-0, i went T4 ram-gang, T5 ram-gang + hellspark, T6 3rd ram-gang + hellspark.
mirror match, 2-1, he ran shambles which were a snap to kill without him getting a swing. whoever goes first wins mirror, i think.
very tough kithkin player. he won game 1, game two i went T3 volcanic, T4 volcanic, t5 stillmoon, t6 stillmoon. Even with these good plays, I still won only because he let a ram-gang by dropping him into burn range. Game three was a similar situation, except my ELT canceled out his forge-tender.

more FNM results

5th overall out of 15 or so, and we cut to top 4.
Game 1: B/W tokens. 0-2. both games went
t1 tapland
t2 tidehollow sculler: grabbed my fallout or incinerate
t3 tidehollow sculler: grabbed the last removal card in my hand
t4 glourious anthem
t5 cloudgoat ranger
3 stillmoon went in game 3, and infest, didn't see them. I think i need to go to 4 stillmoon SB, and i'm considering MB'ing a singleton.
game 2: naya beats. 2-0. game 1, 2 hellspark did it, and g2, my SB'd in stillmoon won me the game by blocking that 6/6 guy that has trample, + a flame javelin.
game 3: bant aggro. 2-1. this player is a newer kid that actually put together a pretty effective deck: my speed won me game 1, and he won game 2 with an elspeth'd rhox war monk. game 3 was a close one that involved me drawing all 3 stillmoon, and responding to his T3 rhox with a T3 ELT. and the ELT easily won me the game.
game 4:U/G synergy. 2-0. i won game 1 when he tried to drop some U/G ench on a 2/1 U/G mimic, and i responded by sacking my fanatic. game 2 he got the ouphy thing that i can't target, and dropping the ench on it making it a 3/3 flying vigilance. He ended up blocking a murderous redcap, and i dropped fallout to kill the blasted thing. after that my 2 lucky terror draws sealed the deal.
overall MVP:stillmoon. misplays: I lost a few games early because I miscounted his creatures, not seeing the mutavaults. I'm going to have to work on watching his man lands.

Goblin Blightning

FNM

(Thank You to KiLl7r0cItY for these matchups)
Round 1 Win 2-1 against Chapin 4 color aggro
Out: 4 blightning In: 4 Thoughtseize b/c of GW Liege
Round 2 Won 2-0 against UB Fae
Out: 4 Siegegang In: 4 Thoughtseize
Round 3 Won 2-0 against Jund Tokens
Out: 4 Outlander In: 3 Infest 1 Redcap
Round 4 ID into first place against a WRB Hand disruption deck

MNM

(Thank You to KiLl7r0cItY for these matchups)
Round 1: Win 2-0 vs Elf Ball
Out 4 Outlander In 3 Infest and 1 Shriekmaw
Round 2: Win 2-0 vs GBR Dramatic Entrance/Reanimator
Out 1 Siegegang & 3 Magma Spray In 4 Thoughtsieze
Round 3: Win 2-0 vs 5CC
Out 4 Mogg Fanatic In 4 Thoughtsieze
Round 4: ID with WBR Thoughsieze/Blightning/Sculler.dec

tourney 3


1. heavy counter wall 5cc. 0-2. this game was rather bizarre, because the first game I played 7 lands, and not a single one produced black. And I had a hand of 2 blightning, what would have been a T2 BB, and 2 earwigs. Game 2 was close, but i didn't get a t2 bb, and lost.

2. naya beats. this guy was the store owner, and so couldn't techniqually win. He would have beaten me otherwise. I just couldn't deal with 3 wooly thoctar when he was busy oringing all my BB's and creatures taht could deal with thoctar. 1-2 (but counted as a win)

3. jund midrange (read -jank). 2-0

4. another wall 5cc. 1-2 I very nearly beat him. he ended up winning game 3 with me having my loxodon out.




matchup list


These are general results from my personal testing and experience so far.
very favorable= 65%-75%
favorable= 55-65%
neutral= 40%-54%
disadvantage= 30%-40%
_______________________________
fae= very favorable
boat brew= neutral
B/W token= disadvantage (i'm searching for a better SB choice, infest and stillmoon have been not enough so far)
jund ramp= favorable
5cc= neutral
G/B elves= favorable
bant= favorable
dark bant= neutral
kithkin= neutral

The last thing I'd like to mention is that I will personally respond to every post in this thread. Us computer techs get bored sometimes. ^^
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
My Current List:
Shockingly Blightning

4x figure - - - 16 creatures
4x fanatic
4x hellspark
4x ram-gang

1x banefire
2x profane - - - 21 non-creature
4x blightning (just completed my set of textless ones! )
4x javelin
4x incinerate
4x tarfire
2x shock

4x hovel - - - 23 land
4x springs
4x cairns
2x pool
5x mountain
4x ghitu
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
Looks good. When can we expect matchups to be listed? I'm still a bit confused about sideboarding with this deck.
Looks good. When can we expect matchups to be listed? I'm still a bit confused about sideboarding with this deck.

I plan on starting out with a matchup against mostly kithkin/5cc. I might have to put infest in the SB to help with fae.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
Well, you beat my 5cc last night, and beat another 5cc - the reason you altered you deck to Blightning - how were you other matchups? Any changes that need to be made in the SB for your losses? Any conflux additions to consider?

You were talking about trying Nyxathid out - anyone have any thoughts about this efficient, risky-beater?
Seems like a solid archetype. Have you tested Volcanic Fallout over infest? Seems like it's be a better choice against Fae and mabye they could actually both have like 1-2 copies in the SB to deal with both threats (forge-tender being the infest response) Plus Fallout help along the way by dealing ur opponent dmg.
Seems like a solid archetype. Have you tested Volcanic Fallout over infest? Seems like it's be a better choice against Fae and mabye they could actually both have like 1-2 copies in the SB to deal with both threats (forge-tender being the infest response) Plus Fallout help along the way by dealing ur opponent dmg.

Fallout is a good card, for sure: but the forge tender that you mention is probably the main reason I prefer to run infest. Kithkin can run me for a loop if i don't take that forge tender out. Also Boat brew (a matchup I haven't played but I'm prettty sure it'll be hard) would be hurt more by infest, especially if they run Mark of Asylum side (along with their forge tenders). Mostly, I just feel like infest is more reliable.

On a side note, my current version of the deck went top four of 20 at last nights FNM. (we split the top four prize evenly). I'm going to update with matchups.

What do you guys think of Nyxathid in this deck?
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
There is absolutely no "control" involved with these decks.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
I think I was going to mention that but then didn't. Thanks, Glux.
I think any list running Hell's Thunder should try out Profane Command to go with it. Then again, that's a little slower a build.

Here's my list.

It runs Demigods because I have them and not Seige-Gangs. Also, I might replace Bitterblossom for budget issues (and to try and up the speed of this deck. I'm running Banefires SB for slower match-ups anyways)



EDIT: Pithing Needle deserves an honorable mention as an answer to... a lot of things :P
There is absolutely no "control" involved with these decks.

I call it aggro control because I throw the majority of my burn spells at opposing creatures. Afaik, killing opponents creatures is considered 'control.'

I think any list running Hell's Thunder should try out Profane Command to go with it. Then again, that's a little slower a build.

Profane command is a good idea, it does, after all, generate what could be called 'card advantage,' and it fills a nice removal/direct player damage slot. I suppose you'd MB them and then switch them out for Banefire if you were playing against a deck with permission?

Also, how are you liking Mogg fanatic? While a fine card, I just feel like the card slot could be used for something a little more aggressive.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
I call it aggro control because I throw the majority of my burn spells at opposing creatures. Afaik, killing opponents creatures is considered 'control.'



Profane command is a good idea, it does, after all, generate what could be called 'card advantage,' and it fills a nice removal/direct player damage slot. I suppose you'd MB them and then switch them out for Banefire if you were playing against a deck with permission?

Also, how are you liking Mogg fanatic? While a fine card, I just feel like the card slot could be used for something a little more aggressive.

Profane + Hell's Thunder is a good way to deal 7 damage, the way I see it. My list doesn't run them currently, though I could throw them in for Bitterblossom. But yea, I'd probably side them out for Banefire. And opposing removal-heavy slower decks, you side something else out for Banefire for 6 x-burns.

It doesn't get much more aggressive than Mogg Fanatic as far as 1-drops go.
It doesn't get much more aggressive than Mogg Fanatic as far as 1-drops go.

fanatic is a great 1-drop, but what I mean is that I don't think the deck requires 8 1-drops, and running 4 1-drops and 4, say, 2 drops instead would be more effective.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
I call it aggro control because I throw the majority of my burn spells at opposing creatures. Afaik, killing opponents creatures is considered 'control.'

Uh, no. Aggro decks need to destroy opponents creatures in order for their own to hit the opponent's life total. Destroying enemy creatures so that you can use your own to eliminate the opponent as quickly as possible is a quintessential part of a good aggro deck; this has been true since the archetype as we know it has been around.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
have you tried Everlasting Torment it stops forge tenders in their tracks and also prevents some life gain seems good haven't tested much though.
Uh, no. Aggro decks need to destroy opponents creatures in order for their own to hit the opponent's life total. Destroying enemy creatures so that you can use your own to eliminate the opponent as quickly as possible is a quintessential part of a good aggro deck; this has been true since the archetype as we know it has been around.

The only decks in standard that I would not call "Aggro-control," would be Elves and Kithkin. Even then, Kithkin runs PtE but only 2-4 copies. Kithkin and elves both rely on attacking aggressively throughout the entire game. While Blightning disrupts/controls your CA and creatures to win them the game. Thus, making it "Aggro-Control."
have you tried Everlasting Torment it stops forge tenders in their tracks and also prevents some life gain seems good haven't tested much though.

I played extensively with ELT in my mono red deck, and it is a great card for anti BFT. However stigma lasher is a better answer for anti-life gain, and infest not only kills teh BFTs, it kills the kithkin players' supporting creatures as well. As such it answers 2 threats.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
The only decks in standard that I would not call "Aggro-control," would be Elves and Kithkin. Even then, Kithkin runs PtE but only 2-4 copies. Kithkin and elves both rely on attacking aggressively throughout the entire game. While Blightning disrupts/controls your CA and creatures to win them the game. Thus, making it "Aggro-Control."

This is wrong on so many levels. Here are the aggro decks in standard: RDW/Blightning, Kithkin/WW, and ElfBall.

Aggro-Control decks? Bant is one of them, many Faeries lists are.

Blightning only has one goal, bring the opponent down to zero ASAP. Blightning is a good card because it can prevent your opponent from stopping you, while also dealing damage. I don't see how it's possible to think that because a deck runs creature removal, it's a control deck. That's ridiculous.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Everything Glux said is absolutely true.

Here is the relevant Wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_deck_types
Everything Glux said is absolutely true.

Here is the relevant Wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_deck_types

From the wikipedia article you were kind enough to link:
Aggro-Control
[...]These decks attempt to deploy quick threats while protecting them with light permission and disruption long enough to win. These are frequently referred to as "tempo" strategies[....]

This is R/b aggro/control in a nutshell.

Now please drop the unhelpful comments and post if you've got something constructive to add.

Now, as far as the OT, I went to a 24k cash tourney today, and didn't perform very well (due to among other things, a match loss for disruptive conduct... lol).

One thing I saw and was impressed by was another blightning deck that ran Hell's Thunder and shambling Remains. He managed to take out a very competent 5ccontrol player with a post-wrath double unearth followed by a flame javelin. So i'm going to amke a list with way more unearth than I usually try and see how it works.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
First of all, I'm going to recommend Hellspark Elemental as the perfect two drop. People underestimate this card. And a lot of people run Hell's Thunder, but it doesn't perform quite as well. If it had trample it'd be a different story. It depends on your meta however - I have a lot of Spectral Procession going on at my FNM. Bitterblossom is pretty popular too in general.

Second of all, what you meant to quote was this:

Aggro or beatdown decks focus on winning quickly by deploying threats in the early turns. Nearly all aggro decks use creatures as a source of reusable damage, and some also employ direct damage spells to finish the job. Aggro decks focus on converting their cards into damage; they are interested in engaging in a tempo-based race rather than a card advantage-based attrition war.

Light permission? Where are your counterspells? Disruption? Just because Blightning doubles as face-burn doesn't mean you would play a spell for its disruptive purposes. For instance, if Blightning only made an opponent discard two cards, you wouldn't run it (even 3). The damage is what you are going for, and the discard is the bonus. Spot removal does not count as permission nor disruption. And you want to point the burn at their face anyway unless you would profit more from hitting their blockers.

I'm going to stop arguing now over definitions. It doesn't matter to me what you call your deck, but I hope you play it like an aggro deck and not this "aggro/control" thing you think it is. For a real aggro/control deck, read Mike Flores' most recent article. That's a good example.
First of all, I'm going to recommend Hellspark Elemental as the perfect two drop. People underestimate this card. And a lot of people run Hell's Thunder, but it doesn't perform quite as well. If it had trample it'd be a different story. It depends on your meta however - I have a lot of Spectral Procession going on at my FNM. Bitterblossom is pretty popular too in general.

I'm glad to hear you like the hellspark elemental: if youlook at the list i just posted i've got a three-of. Let me know what you think of the list.
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
Looks basically reasonable. Although I don't know how Bitterblossom is working out for you here. I mean, ideally you want to kill them by turn 4 or something, and if you're taking the time to drop a Bitterblossom on turn 2, that means next turn, you deal 1 damage, turn after, you deal 2, etc. It's so slow... You could just run Incinerate.

I haven't seen Stigma Lasher in a while; I mean I do see him played. But I am wondering what people think of him. Over something like Everlasting Torment or Puncture Blast. Does he reliably get in there?
In the "New RDW Thread" over there, there were 3 lists that t8'd at some events. They're good examples of where we should start this deck from. All of them ran 4x Hellspark (well, one ran 3 and 1 in the SB), one of them ran Shambling Remains (4x), and none ran Hell's Thunder. Two of them ran 3x Banefire, on of them had Demigods in the sideboard, and two of them ran SGCs.

I liked the first list more. It had a lower mana curve, peaking at 3, with Demis in the board.

Well anyways, after taking a look at the 3 lists, I devised my own:

B/r Blightning Deck Wins.

~creatures - 20~
4 x Figure of Destiny
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Boggart Ram-Gang
4 x Demigod of Revenge
3 x Mogg Fanatic
~spells - 16~
4 x Incinerate
4 x Flame Javelin
4 x Blighting
3 x Profane Command
2 x Volcanic Fallout
~lands - 24~
6 x Mountain
4 x Sulfurous Spring
4 x Graven Cairns
4 x Auntie's Hovel
3 x Reflecting Pool
3 x Ghitu Encampment
~ ~ Sideboard -- 15 ~~
4 x Infest
3 x Hell's Thunder
2-3 x Everlasting Torment
(0-1 x Mogg Fanatic)
3 x Banefire
2 x Volcanic Fallout

Hell's Thunder sucks against anything with Bitterbutt and Spectral. So I might run them in the SB, as they are SICK with Profane, as are Hellspark and Ram-Gang (anything with haste and a low CC), hence I run Profane MD over Banefire. I thought more on Profane and deemed it work testing. That type of CA is well worth it in a deck like this.
There's a lot of comments about hell's thunder here, so i just wanna add my 2c...

Basically, the card itself is great, at first glance. However, the real issue (aside from being chump-blocked by a 1/1 flyer), is its unearth cost. to unearth is pretty steep, considering everything else you should be dumping your mana into (pumping figure, dropping a gouger or shambling remains, throwing out your second blightning, etc etc).

However yes, I think hell's thunder should be an automatic 3-of, if not 4, for every RDW/blightning burn deck.
Hell's Thunder can be looked at in a few ways:

Boggart Ram-Gang + damage and evasion, - board position
Blockable but recurrable Flame Javelin

The fact is: it's not MD material, because SO many decks run Buttblossom or Spectral. But for the decks that can't easily chump it, it becomes a serious threat. Forget the cost of unearth. That is simply a bonus that gets tacked on during the late-game when you topdeck a ****ing lands ... anyways.

The reason I put it in my sideboard is just that: My deck already MDs Demigod, do I really need to put a lot of slots towards cards that are easy to chump? Not really. So I dedicate 3 slots in the sideboard towards punishing any deck that doesn't run these flying token-generators. As a result, they eat a lot of damage from hell's thunder, then they eat a swing for 7 when I Profane it back out there on turn 5. If they have no ground blockers, it's a Ram-Gang instead.


Anyways, onto more about Profane Commad: I side it out for Banefire against decks littered with counters. Aside from that, BDW (I call this Blightning Deck Wins) has trouble with 4-drops as red and black both fall short there. Well, with Hellspark Elemental, Profane Command becomes a great 4-drop against an ill-prepared deck as a 5-point life swing that early can mean a lot knowing Hellspark will yet again come back.

Boggart Ram-Gang is a big target being removed: Agony Warp, Incinerate, Terror, Deathmark, combat.... The fact is, he's one of the best creatures in the deck. So bringing him back with a Profane is never a bad move if they're going to have issues answering it. This type of CA is invaluable against midrange decks.

Some WW decks use Moonglove Extract to get rid of Outlanders and Stillmoons, etc. Well, Profane is copies 5-6/7.

One more little hidden gem: Giving your Demigod fear against those stupid Spectral tokens while burning the player for 4 on turn 6 is a good 9 damage in one turn. GG.

EDIT: and I've heard Profane is really good against Boat Brew, which I could see posing a problem to this deck.
Hell's Thunder sucks against anything with Bitterbutt and Spectral. So I might run them in the SB, as they are SICK with Profane, as are Hellspark and Ram-Gang (anything with haste and a low CC), hence I run Profane MD over Banefire. I thought more on Profane and deemed it work testing. That type of CA is well worth it in a deck like this.

These are very good points, and I 'do' really like the idea of profane command, especially since i've decided to run pools to make stillmoon and infest easier to play. stillmoons side = win vs. a ton of decks that we traditionally have trouble with.

I'll edit the list and try profane out.

One final note is that I've been liking demigod less and less, though it does great as a SB card.

I haven't seen Stigma Lasher in a while; I mean I do see him played. But I am wondering what people think of him. Over something like Everlasting Torment or Puncture Blast. Does he reliably get in there?

I love him mostly for the psychological impact of dropping him turn two: and i'll tell you the main reason i've got him in there. Primal Command. That single card, if resolved, drops my chance of winning by a significant amount. It's huge card advantage if he not only tutors, but also cancels out an incinerate and flame javv.

On a final note, i'm becoming disillusioned about Bitterblossom.

(Updated the OP)
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
Posted by request of the OP (has an overall record of about 26-4, including a undefeated run at the last local FNM event):

Stigma Lasher x4
Hellspark Elemental x4
Shambling Remains x4
Mogg Fanatic x4
Murderous Redcap x2
Blightning x4
Flame Javelin x4
Nameless Inversion x2
Incinerate x3
Banefire x1
Volcanic Fallout x4
Beseech the Queen x2
Auntie's Hovel x3
Sulfurous Springs x4
Graven Cairns x4
Reflecting Pool x3
Ghitu Encampment x2
Mountain x3
Swamp x3

Sideboard:
Moonglove Extract x4
Kederekt Parasite x3
Cruel Edict x3 (or the Warrens that puts Goblin tokens into play, if you prefer)
Nameless Inversion x2
(can't think of the name, the Relic ?? that removes cards in graveyards) x3
Posted by request of the OP (has an overall record of about 26-4, including a undefeated run at the last local FNM event):
Show

Stigma Lasher x4
Hellspark Elemental x4
Shambling Remains x4
Mogg Fanatic x4
Murderous Redcap x2
Blightning x4
Flame Javelin x4
Nameless Inversion x2
Incinerate x3
Banefire x1
Volcanic Fallout x4
Beseech the Queen x2
Auntie's Hovel x3
Sulfurous Springs x4
Graven Cairns x4
Reflecting Pool x3
Ghitu Encampment x2
Mountain x3
Swamp x3

Sideboard:
Moonglove Extract x4
Kederekt Parasite x3
Cruel Edict x3 (or the Warrens that puts Goblin tokens into play, if you prefer)
Nameless Inversion x2
(can't think of the name, the Relic ?? that removes cards in graveyards) x3

Excellent, thanks for posting. You seem to have a pretty good idea down, more than I like to play (but that's only b/c I love mono red. )

So i'll start by examining your card choices, then mana curve and then move on to your sideboard.
card choices

Your foundation seems to be the 2 drops: which makes sense as you've got a lot of black in your mana base (making it tough to play Figure).

My first question is those Nameless Inversion. I think you'd be better off dropping those for Tarfire. Tarfire activates your Hovels, and also takes out 'most' of the creatures you'd drop NI onto anyway. (as well as being 1 cheaper and can hit the player as well). If you see forge tenders, you've got moonglove in your SB.

Your beseech the queen is the right idea: the card advantage in black can be devastating when applied to and / threats. However, I think for this slot you should decide on either Liliana vess or something along the lines of Scarscale Ritual (maybe not that exact card). Vess might seem like an odd play, but my playtest has shown her as actually rather effective. dropping her the turn after or before a blightning will devastate your opponents' hand, and if ignored will earn back tons of CA. I feel she is a more active pick than Beseech.

Shambling is a card that I wasn't very impressed with at first, but at a $400 tourney I went to the other day, I saw our local city pro's 5cc drop to two of these guys being unearthed and a Flame javelin. This leads to my final card choice question: you've got 4 flame javelin. Have you ever not been able to play it when you needed it? if you haven't disregard this, but if you have, i'd suggest taking a few swamps out for mountains and trying to get some Figure of Destiny along with it. Besides these comments I think you've got a rather solid deck going.

mana curve
As I mentioned before, you seem to rely on your two drops, and have very little in the way of an 'end curve.' My first instinct is dropping Redcap for 2 Siege-gang Commander, but then I realize that the 4 volcanic fallout MD could conflict with that. I have seen red and black/red decks that have no mana cost higher than 3 win, but the cost is that if your hand is empty, your chance of topdecking something really game changing is low.
For these reasons I would suggest Profane Command (if Banshee will let me steal the idea ^^). Profane is a very versatile spell, and you shouldn't have any trouble producing . This will give you some mid-game power, as well as more game-ending topdecks for you. I would suggest perhaps dropping a single fallout and something else for it.
(I'm out of time, but I will make a second post to finish these comments)
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
On a final note, i'm becoming disillusioned about Bitterblossom.

(Updated the OP)

Basically what you are doing with BB, is making it so that you can put your opponent on a clock - but not only a clock in the early to mid-game, but also in the later parts of the game. Sure, it does the same to you - but, if you are eliminating your later game tricks and bombs to play cheaper, faster spells, I believe BB will be that much more powerful in your deck. The one thing that red lacks is a steady, constant threat - bitterblossom does that, in an evasive way.
Hell's Thunder isn't hot in Standard right now. As has been said before, the plethora of chumps makes it a bad flame javelin and his unearth cost is strictly... bad.

Expect Stigma Lasher to see a strong resurgence if Wall of Reverence really takes off in 5cc. He gets in there early enough to hurt that plan.

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My first question is those Nameless Inversion. I think you'd be better off dropping those for Tarfire. Tarfire activates your Hovels, and also takes out 'most' of the creatures you'd drop NI onto anyway. (as well as being 1 cheaper and can hit the player as well). If you see forge tenders, you've got moonglove in your SB.

I like Tarfire, and thought about putting it in there instead of Inversions. However, it can't really hit 3/3's and in a few games Marsh Flitter would have beat me down after I cast Fallout had I not had the Inversion.

The only way I would recommend dropping them is for Profane Command, but then there's the Hovel. (Inversion works with it, too).

Your beseech the queen is the right idea: the card advantage in black can be devastating when applied to and / threats. However, I think for this slot you should decide on either Liliana vess or something along the lines of Scarscale Ritual (maybe not that exact card). Vess might seem like an odd play, but my playtest has shown her as actually rather effective. dropping her the turn after or before a blightning will devastate your opponents' hand, and if ignored will earn back tons of CA. I feel she is a more active pick than Beseech.

Most games, I just don't have more than 4-5 land, and the deck is very mana intensive. It really can't wait until turn 6 to start searching for stuff, IF search is needed - the life loss is a problem, too, but that's probably too specific an issue for this discussion. BtQ works, because I can get that Banefire or a Volcanic Fallout, or Nameless Inversion. I guess my point is that based on the way I have played this deck, the only time I have needed to search has been in the games where BtQ actually got played. There have been several games where I didn't even bother to play it because the threats in my hand were better than anything I could go looking for. With Vess in there, it's suddenly a choice on turn 5 between playing that and unearthing two Hellsparks.

And I would be more tempted to play Vess - which would be the wrong play most of the time. :P

This leads to my final card choice question: you've got 4 flame javelin. Have you ever not been able to play it when you needed it?

It's a game finisher most of the time, and I could see cutting 1-2 of them. But then it becomes an issue when I don't have that 4-damage spell to clear the board of 3+ toughness critters like Plumeveil or Hell's Thunder.

As I mentioned before, you seem to rely on your two drops, and have very little in the way of an 'end curve.' My first instinct is dropping Redcap for 2 Siege-gang Commander, but then I realize that the 4 volcanic fallout MD could conflict with that. I have seen red and black/red decks that have no mana cost higher than 3 win, but the cost is that if your hand is empty, your chance of topdecking something really game changing is low.

Could go either way with that. I chose Redcap because I like to clear the board of creatures before I swing with the Hellspark or Stigma Lasher, but the SGC would do just as good, I think - just slower.

Thanks for the comments - I will definitely give them some more thought.
Basically what you are doing with BB, is making it so that you can put your opponent on a clock - but not only a clock in the early to mid-game, but also in the later parts of the game. Sure, it does the same to you - but, if you are eliminating your later game tricks and bombs to play cheaper, faster spells, I believe BB will be that much more powerful in your deck. The one thing that red lacks is a steady, constant threat - bitterblossom does that, in an evasive way.

Yeah, I'm not saying that it isn't extremely effective against some opponents. However, I'm going to side them out of the deck versus any green matchup or any control that runs cloudthresher on games 2 and 3.

Thanks for the comments - I will definitely give them some more thought.

certainly: when i get some more time i'll see if there's anything else I can suggest. ANd that bit about inversion working with hovel completely skipped my mind. That would be a great trick. I'd consider putting them SB, but I usaully run terror or something SB to deal with Jund Ramp (which can throw this deck for a loop if they've got Mannequin)

Expect Stigma Lasher to see a strong resurgence if Wall of Reverence really takes off in 5cc. He gets in there early enough to hurt that plan.

Honestly I haven't had much trouble with the Wall in my playtests: ram-gang's swing into them very favorably, and it's very easy to drop a flame javelin on him right after he plays Plumey(before he declares blockers)
Playing R/b currently.
for fun
"MY LANDS ARE NOW ELEPHANTS" -Pol_Pot "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." -Benjamin Franklin
Does my list look solid? I realise I don't run Bitterblossom, I thinkn it's too slow. It runs Demigod because I feel that I've always had good success with it, and will continue to play it.

My sideboard will possibly have Stillmoon in it now in place of Infest. I'll always bring both with me and try and scout the day's meta to help decide whether or not I will play Stillmoon or just Infest.

B/r Blightning Deck Wins.

~creatures - 20~
4 x Figure of Destiny
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Boggart Ram-Gang
4 x Demigod of Revenge
3 x Mogg Fanatic
~spells - 16~
4 x Incinerate
4 x Flame Javelin
4 x Blighting
3 x Profane Command
2 x Volcanic Fallout
~lands - 24~
6 x Mountain
4 x Sulfurous Spring
4 x Graven Cairns
4 x Auntie's Hovel
3 x Reflecting Pool
3 x Ghitu Encampment
~ ~ Sideboard -- 15 ~~
4 x Infest/Stillmoon Cavalier
3 x Hell's Thunder
2-3 x Everlasting Torment
(0-1 x Mogg Fanatic)
3 x Banefire
2 x Volcanic Fallout

So how solid does this look? I have a good feeling about it.
Demigod really isn't very good anymore. I'd cut a land, play Murderous Redcaps or Shambling Remains instead, and up Fallout to 3 maindeck.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Hmm. I can see reasoning behind that. I want to at least give Demigod a test out, though, because he's always been "the perfect draw", so to speak, in my black deck. So if he doesn't work out, yea, I'll take him out.

Anyways, between Redcap and Remains, which is overall better?

And yea, if my mana curve tops at 3-4, I'll take a land out for another Fallout, as that's quite sensible.
@Karchev: Linked you on my RDW OP. PLeasure doing business with you.:D
good to have all that sorted out.
Hmm. I can see reasoning behind that. I want to at least give Demigod a test out, though, because he's always been "the perfect draw", so to speak, in my black deck. So if he doesn't work out, yea, I'll take him out.

Anyways, between Redcap and Remains, which is overall better?

And yea, if my mana curve tops at 3-4, I'll take a land out for another Fallout, as that's quite sensible.

I'd just test 'em both and see which you like more.

Personally, I'd lean towards Remains at first.
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
I'd just test 'em both and see which you like more.

Personally, I'd lean towards Remains at first.

Yea, me too.
Remains ='s uncounterable pseudo-burn, for : while Hellppark is a psuedo Lash Out for 1 (mostly pops creatures but can hit the face.)

The best creature base would be
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Shambling Remains

With a spell back up of
4 Incinerate/Shard Valley
4 Flame Javelin
4 Blightning
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Profane Command

That would be the list I would run.