[Archetype Discussion]Mana Ramp Variants

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[CENTER][SIZE=6]Mana Ramp Archetype [/CENTER][/SIZE]

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IMAGE(http://www.joshuagerber.com/Artwork/HL/XL-manaramp.jpg)
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What is Mana Ramp and how to play with it?
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Mana Ramp is an archetype who abuses the mana advantage from ramping spells such as Fertile Ground, Rampant Growth and Garruk Wildspeaker untap lands ability which is totally absurd if the land is enchanted by fertile.
After ramping the mana up, the deck cast some big threats that are game breakers by themselves also the creatures this deck plays are CA generators, because they can turn the game into a dofferent way putting you in a winning position.
This deck it's not hard to play with, but, it must be played carefully and wisely to not commit mistakes and put the game at risk, and of course you must know your deck and waht to bring in from SB and took out from MB. One last point, the deck, it must be well built and balanced, i mean, the spells, lands, creatures and sideboard, must be well balanced with each one. Examples: the lands usually are 23 spots and the ramp spells are 8 plus 3 garruk, totalling 11 spots, the spot and mass removal spells usually are beteween 8-12 slots in MB and 3-6 slots in SB, the other spells are utilities and win conditions cards in general, such as: Primal Command, Banefire, Violent Ultimatum-it can be considered as removal spell as well. And at last, the creatures slots, in general they stay in 12-16 slots, beteween those slots exists a few staple creatures like Kitchen Finks, Chameleon Colossus, Broodmate Dragon and Clousthresher, the rest depends on your call and the meta you are used to play.
This archetype were divided into two variation, Jund and Naya variation, the last one, never had any expressive result in any champ, i believe that it's just because jund variation it's better, has better options and pool of cards, also has better answers against the principals deck around, at least in my opinion i believe they are RW variations, BW tokens, 5cc, Faeries and other random agro decks. Those are the decks which i prepare to play against, the others, well, is the others..


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Card Choices:
Creatures
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Jund Variation
3 CMC






4+ CMC










Spells and Planeswalkers
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Planeswalkers





Ramp Spells




Spot and Mass Removals

Jund Options









Naya Options





Utilities cards in both variations










Lands
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To Build the mana base, so to build your mana base these lands should do the job, even in a straight 3 colour ramp or a ramp with splash for other colour. Just don't forget to use 7-8 basic lands for rampant growth.


Sideboard Options in both variations
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All the options are meta call. Never will exist 2 identical sideboard, ebcause the meta changes on each region/play area. So this is just an idea. Also some cards that are in MB can be on the SB too by their proporcion.














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Decklists:


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Matchup Analysis - Jund Ramp:
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Agro Match
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Sideboard Plan contra Agro: ( it will depend on the, but bascially this is the variations at least theones that i'm used to do )

- 1x Violent Ultimatum
- 1x Banefire
- 3x Garruk Wildspeaker
- 1x Fertile Ground
- 2x Cloudthresher
+ 1x Jund Charm
+ 3x Infest
+ 4x Anathemancer






Control Match
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Here i'll speak a little bit against 5 Colours Control archetype, because it's the most hatred control deck ever, in my opinion. The others control match-up won't be too hard against, the only control match that it's really hard, it's facing Lark Control Decks because their CA that they can have, against them we have a main deck answer which is Jund Charm the grave removal ability put's the deck in a great position against them.

Sideboard Plan Against 5c Control and other ctrl decks: ( it will depend on the, but bascially this is the variations at least theones that i'm used to do )
- 2x Jund Charm
- 3x Volcanic Fallout
- 2x Primal Command
- 1x Fertile Ground
- 1x Violent Ultimatum
- 1x Lavalanche
+ 3x Guttural Response
+ 4x Anathemancer
+ 3x Thought Hemorrage





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Deffentally looks cool. FEAR THE DRAGONS . Was thinking of making a deck like this myself. Why no Birds of Paradise or Bloom Tender?
Deffentally looks cool. FEAR THE DRAGONS . Was thinking of making a deck like this myself. Why no Birds of Paradise or Bloom Tender?

Because you want acceleration that stays after you sweep the board.
Saw a deck like this played at my local FNM. Was 4 or 5 color though. Used Garruk, Fertile ground and violent ultimatum. Was a nasty deck to face, he also was playing quite a few planeswalkers though, the rings and Courier's Capsule also. (playing rings on capsule was disgusting)

I called it 7 mana win. He would turn 5 Violent/cruel ultimatum and destroy.
Because you want acceleration that stays after you sweep the board.

exactly my friend...those are too fragile, and will die as soon as they hit play or will die mass removals and u don't want that...that's why they don't belong in this archetype..

the deck were updated on the opening post!!

Updated:
-1 Loxodon Warhammer
-1 Profane Command
+2 Eyeblight's Ending
I agree with the choice of Eyeblight's Ending as your standard removal set. I'd run 3, plus 1 Shriekmaw or Spitebellows to tutor for.
// Lands
3 [6E] Karplusan Forest
4 [UL] Treetop Village
6 [US] Forest (4)
2 [US] Mountain (1)
2 [US] Swamp (1)
4 [ALA] Savage Lands
2 [10E] Llanowar Wastes

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Cloudthresher
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [SHM] Firespout
2 [LRW] Primal Command
2 [ALA] Violent Ultimatum
3 [LRW] Lash Out
4 [LRW] Fertile Ground
4 [10E] Rampant Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 1 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [MOR] Mind Shatter
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 4 [ALA] Jund Charm

4-1 FNM. Beat RDW, White Weenie, BW Mimic.dec, and some bad random deck. Lost to UWB Lark with Fulm Mages, Scullers, etc.

It's a REALLY bad matchup. Recursive Fulm Mages just tear you apart. I like the deck a lot though.
// Lands
3 [6E] Karplusan Forest
4 [UL] Treetop Village
6 [US] Forest (4)
2 [US] Mountain (1)
2 [US] Swamp (1)
4 [ALA] Savage Lands
2 [10E] Llanowar Wastes

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Cloudthresher
1 [ALA] Hellkite Overlord
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [SHM] Firespout
2 [LRW] Primal Command
2 [ALA] Violent Ultimatum
3 [LRW] Lash Out
4 [LRW] Fertile Ground
4 [10E] Rampant Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 1 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [MOR] Mind Shatter
SB: 2 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 4 [ALA] Jund Charm

4-1 FNM. Beat RDW, White Weenie, BW Mimic.dec, and some bad random deck. Lost to UWB Lark with Fulm Mages, Scullers, etc.

It's a REALLY bad matchup. Recursive Fulm Mages just tear you apart. I like the deck a lot though.

nice list and result man...about facing lark...perhaps some Relic of Progenitus in sb good improve that match?any thoughts on it?
The more I look at Relic, the more I think that it's just better than Macabre. The faerie can be found via Primal, which is nice, but the multiple uses from Relic, especially earlier in the game could be crucial. I'm gunna test it out.

Jund Charm is your lifeline the Reveillark matchup. You winning this match hinges on this card. Not only does it remove their yard, but the instant Pyroclasm effect can net you serious CA in certain situations. For example; my opponent had Sowered my Colossus, taken a card with Sculler and had a Drifter in play. He tapped out for Profane Command choosing to drain me and give his team fear. I responded with Jund Charm naming Pyro. Thanks for the 4-for-1. Jund Charm or not though, it's by far the worst matchup for this deck.

I've been testing Jund Ramp variants since before States and I think the deck can be a serious contender for a DtB, and I think my list is really close to optimal. It just crushes Fae, Kithkin and other aggro strategies and is really strong against 5c Control. At this point the only thing I would consider changing in the main would be adding Resounding Thunder for Lash Out. I would only do this in a 5c heavy field, however.
// Lands
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire
3 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket
3 [SHM] Graven Cairns
4 [ALA] Savage Lands
1 [LRW] Vivid Grove
3 [10E] Treetop Village
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
1 [TSP] Swamp (3)
2 [TSP] Forest (1)
2 [SHM] Mountain (1)

// Creatures

4 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
2 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
3 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon

// Spells
3 [ALA] Resounding Thunder
3 [SHM] Firespout
4 [10E] Rampant Growth
3 [ALA] Violent Ultimatum
3 [LRW] Fertile Ground
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 4 [SHM] Fulminator Mage
SB: 2 [MOR] Mind Shatter
SB: 4 [SHM] Guttural Response
SB: 3 [LRW] Makeshift Mannequin

This has been great. It has solid game against all of the DTBs, and can have some serious explosive hands ( t4 violent ultimatum is painful for your opponent )
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Update the opening post with some tested match-ups.
Perhaps it would be prudent to discuss/include Luchas Duchow's 6th place States Jund Ramp in the OP?
Perhaps it would be prudent to discuss/include Luchas Duchow's 6th place States Jund Ramp in the OP?

for sure man...do u have the list ?? if u do..tell me it and i post it there!!
Opening post edited...

Now with some States results!!

Enjoy!
added more tested match-up!!
I've been playing Island's list a bit, tuning it so that it doesn't depend on Garruk Overrun all the time...

But man, Garruk is the lifeforce of this deck. Can't take Lewk Faley's list seriously without it. Can't take his name seriously either, but that's another story. A definite 4-of, it draws THAT much hate.

Unlike Islands "Biggie Mauls" list, I'm running Primals over Incendiaries. Tutoring the right creature, duplicating the right creature: all great ways to win. I'm still fine-tuning my list, so tell me: would YOU recommend 4 Fulminator Mages? In the Biggie Maul's list with Incendiary, they'd help tons in crippling the enemy mana-base. On the other hand, I can't approve of Incendiary coupled with a token overrun strategy: just doesn't work together.

Sprouting Thrinax over Finks, however. Better chumping and better synergy with Garruk.
I've been playing Island's list a bit, tuning it so that it doesn't depend on Garruk Overrun all the time...

But man, Garruk is the lifeforce of this deck. Can't take Lewk Faley's list seriously without it. Can't take his name seriously either, but that's another story. A definite 4-of, it draws THAT much hate.

Unlike Islands "Biggie Mauls" list, I'm running Primals over Incendiaries. Tutoring the right creature, duplicating the right creature: all great ways to win. I'm still fine-tuning my list, so tell me: would YOU recommend 4 Fulminator Mages? In the Biggie Maul's list with Incendiary, they'd help tons in crippling the enemy mana-base. On the other hand, I can't approve of Incendiary coupled with a token overrun strategy: just doesn't work together.

Sprouting Thrinax over Finks, however. Better chumping and better synergy with Garruk.

for sure garruk it's the key card of the deck, it got so many hate when hit plays, but if he stays in game, almost gg!

man i haven't saw the list u're talking about with incendiary command, but if it can be a nice strategy goes on land destruction, but i won't trust the game on land destruction strategy man...

show us your list to see have a better opinion!
Eh, Islands had a thread for these decks a while ago, but it died, so I'm glad to see this pop up. I guess I'll throw a list up to help get discussions going.

// Lands - 24
4 [ALA] Savage Lands
8 [ALA] Forest
7 [ALA] Mountain
5 [ALA] Swamp

// Creatures - 16
3 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon

// Spells 20
4 [LRW] Fertile Ground
4 [10E] Rampant Growth
3 [ALA] Resounding Thunder
3 [ALA] Violent Ultimatum
2 [LRW] Primal Command
3 [LRW] Incendiary Command
1 [EVE] Spitting Image

// Sideboard
3 [MOR] Mindshatter
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [ALA] Resounding Thunder
3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [10E] Naturalize

Notes:
- Yeah, the land base looks, well, cheap. But all my duals are decked, and I could use them, but with the Growths and Grounds, I've never had a problem playing anything.
- I'd probably like 4 Garruk, but I only have 3 and that's been working fine.
- Brazil, this is similar to the Islands list you asked about.

Glux, if you're going to run 3 Fertile Ground and 4 R Growth, I'd flop those numbers. Whether you're playing 3 or 4 Garruk, he's too sick with Fertile Ground. There's nothing like playing him for free with 2 Fertile lands.
Search this forum for Islands' "Biggie Maulz" thread. It was the start of my list, but you gotta imagine the havoc that Ramped Violent U., 4 SB Fulminators and 3 MD Incendiary C. can do!

Basically, my unfinished list is his list, with Primal over Incendiary and some changes in creatures (such as singleton 'Tresher, Colossus and some Siege Gang Commanders). It tries to win with Garruk Overrun, but it'll beat you with big creatures all the same.

A word on Broodmate: It's amazing how in a vacuum, Broodmate isn't as good as say, Chameleon Colossus. Sure Colossus needs mana, but otherwise the flying dragons are often just not that big enough late in the game: Elspeth has been a pain as my opponents shoot flying knights at me and I'm not big enough to strike back...
Man, I've found the opposite. My CCs get chumped all day. Broodmate has been amazing for me. Sure, Blossom gives the problems, but 2 dragons can handle 1 token a turn pretty well.

Also, I've always got something to do with my mana late and rarely got a chance to pump an unblocked CC. Or a blocked one, for that matter.
Eh, Islands had a thread for these decks a while ago, but it died, so I'm glad to see this pop up. I guess I'll throw a list up to help get discussions going.

// Lands - 24
4 [ALA] Savage Lands
8 [ALA] Forest
7 [ALA] Mountain
5 [ALA] Swamp

// Creatures - 16
3 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon

// Spells 20
4 [LRW] Fertile Ground
4 [10E] Rampant Growth
3 [ALA] Resounding Thunder
3 [ALA] Violent Ultimatum
2 [LRW] Primal Command
3 [LRW] Incendiary Command
1 [EVE] Spitting Image

// Sideboard
3 [MOR] Mindshatter
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [ALA] Resounding Thunder
3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [10E] Naturalize

Notes:
- Yeah, the land base looks, well, cheap. But all my duals are decked, and I could use them, but with the Growths and Grounds, I've never had a problem playing anything.
- I'd probably like 4 Garruk, but I only have 3 and that's been working fine.
- Brazil, this is similar to the Islands list you asked about.

Glux, if you're going to run 3 Fertile Ground and 4 R Growth, I'd flop those numbers. Whether you're playing 3 or 4 Garruk, he's too sick with Fertile Ground. There's nothing like playing him for free with 2 Fertile lands.

It's a nice list, he only thing i'm not convinced about it playing elvish visionary and thrinax over finks, at least i would never run thrinax over finks, elvish has to be testes...good how i miss harmonize!! i hope that in the upcoming editions they give us some sort of green/black nice drawing spell!!

probably the right number of garruk is 3x of it...i play 3 of him and have never had any problems with that...

Search this forum for Islands' "Biggie Maulz" thread. It was the start of my list, but you gotta imagine the havoc that Ramped Violent U., 4 SB Fulminators and 3 MD Incendiary C. can do!

Basically, my unfinished list is his list, with Primal over Incendiary and some changes in creatures (such as singleton 'Tresher, Colossus and some Siege Gang Commanders). It tries to win with Garruk Overrun, but it'll beat you with big creatures all the same.

A word on Broodmate: It's amazing how in a vacuum, Broodmate isn't as good as say, Chameleon Colossus. Sure Colossus needs mana, but otherwise the flying dragons are often just not that big enough late in the game: Elspeth has been a pain as my opponents shoot flying knights at me and I'm not big enough to strike back...

i saw the list!!

when i tested Colossus i didn't like it at all, because he gets chump blocked or burned, i decided to play troll ascetic over him because he can be targeted and it's almost invencible with his regenerate ability.

Broodmante AkA Double Dragon :: A hell of a creature, 2 4/4 flying dragons it's always great.

facing elspeth late game hurts, i know...that's why this deck runs resounding thunder, u cycle it, kill elspeth damaging it by 6 poinsts and draw a card!

Man, I'ver found the opposite. My CCs get chumped all day. Broodmate has been amazing for me. Sure, Blossom gives the problems, but 2 dragons can handle 1 token a turn pretty well.

for sure, i agree with you about both question...i don't like CC in this deck at all...
Glux, if you're going to run 3 Fertile Ground and 4 R Growth, I'd flop those numbers. Whether you're playing 3 or 4 Garruk, he's too sick with Fertile Ground. There's nothing like playing him for free with 2 Fertile lands.

It totally sucks to get a fertile groundland bounced/F. Maged though, which is why I don't usually want more than 1 a game.
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It totally sucks to get a fertile groundland bounced/F. Maged though, which is why I don't usually want more than 1 a game.

Well I don't know why you would play Fertile on a non-basic, allowing it to be Maged or Commanded.

And as far as bounce, the only thing you'll run into are Cryptic Command, Primal Command, Bommerang and Grixis Charm, and those last two aren't too prevalent. Also, if they're bouncing a land with Cryptic, that's probably not too bad. You've got a lot of those, and now your Garruk, Dragon token, etc. are all the safer.

@ Brazil

I thought about Finks, but went with Thrinax... not too sure why, but I like him. And Elvish Visionary just works beautifully. Maybe he could cut to 3, but early he digs past that needed land or ramp card and chumps for you, and late, he digs towards more threats and at that stage, you've usually got the 2 mana to spare (or he's free with Garruk).
Alot about this archetype has been discussed in Kedi's "conquer all" thread, and Islands' "BGR Biggie Maulz" thread.

Can a mod merge those into this thread perhaps?

If not, anyone interested in the deck can also check out those threads for a lot of information on the archetype.
Alot about this archetype has been discussed in Kedi's "conquer all" thread, and Islands' "BGR Biggie Maulz" thread.

Can a mod merge those into this thread perhaps?

If not, anyone interested in the deck can also check out those threads for a lot of information on the archetype.

nope man, i saw the conquer all thread u said, it's a totally diferent archetype...from this man...just because they are in jund colours, doesn't mean that they are all the same archetype...this is a ramp deck, which are both agro and control.

well anyone has tested this dekc out ?? more thoughts, ideas or suggest are welcome!!
nope man, i saw the conquer all thread u said, it's a totally diferent archetype...from this man...just because they are in jund colours, doesn't mean that they are all the same archetype...this is a ramp deck, which are both agro and control.

well anyone has tested this dekc out ?? more thoughts, ideas or suggest are welcome!!

Read the whole thread then. Down the thread he changes his list drasticly to more of a jund ramp, which spurs a lot of people to post theirs and discuss it.

And the BGR biggie maulz thread has a lot of info about GBR big mana.

You don't have to take my word for it. All i'm saying, is if you want a plethora of info on the deck, go read those threads. If you don't, I'm not forcing you to read them. Be my guest. But a lot of quality posters have input a lot of time/opinions on the archetype in those 2 threads.

Your loss.
In regards to visionary: Great idea, but with our mana capacity, would Masked Admirers be a better fit? Draws cards, recurrs, beats, chumps... sounds great, but it costs 2 more mana. Given the nature of the deck, I think thats a non-issue though... Thoughts?
In regards to visionary: Great idea, but with our mana capacity, would Masked Admirers be a better fit? Draws cards, recurrs, beats, chumps... sounds great, but it costs 2 more mana. Given the nature of the deck, I think thats a non-issue though... Thoughts?

Visionary just helps you curve out, and coming down early, it allows an early chump, or early point of damage. Also, I'm finding when you've ramped up on mana, you've always got some bomb play, and tapping 4 for a 3/2 and a card is going to prevent this.

Just try out Visionary
You may find it hilarious, but Flameblast Dragon is a fun mana sink in here.
[/deck]

Now, the deck obviously isn't quite finalised yet.... I've got it in mind to try and fit a couple of Treetop Villages in the manabase, but I don't want to overload on Cipt lands... And I'm seriously considering putting manaplasm in the sideboard. Before you laugh, remember that it does survive all your own sweepers, and can get dangerously large with all the high cmc around.
The flameblast dragons are sideboarded because I'd rather have the more versatile cloudthresher in the first game, but I still want the option of switching it out for a dragon if the thesher isn't required for that matchup.
Also, do we need naturalize in the sideboard? I'd thought that between Primal command and violent ultimatum we'd pretty much have artifact and enchantment destruction in hand.
I definitely don't agree with 3-4 Jund Charm as an auto-include MD. It's very good vs Kithkin, Lark, sometimes Fae and random reanimator decks, but it's next to useless against Toast, Planeswalkers, and it's only decent against RDW. Meta call if anything, I would say.
They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you've got to ride it well, the world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes and steal your dreams, it's heaven and hell, oh well!
Can someone here please post the list by Flores? It would make a very interesting discussion.
I definitely don't agree with 3-4 Jund Charm as an auto-include MD. It's very good vs Kithkin, Lark, sometimes Fae and random reanimator decks, but it's next to useless against Toast, Planeswalkers, and it's only decent against RDW. Meta call if anything, I would say.

saying it's good against 5/7 of the metagame seems like a good reason to include it to me. That, and it fills a vital need of this particular deck. WW and Fae are so prevalent, it's a 4 of 4 me.
saying it's good against 5/7 of the metagame seems like a good reason to include it to me. That, and it fills a vital need of this particular deck. WW and Fae are so prevalent, it's a 4 of 4 me.

If nothing else (assuming you run kitchen finks), you can use the charm to stick two +1/+1 counters on them after they've persisted. Now that makes Ashenmoor gougers cry.
sorry guys, i've been away from this thread...my brodband is off at my home, also i don't have time to do real tests this week...i'll post here when i at work...

how the tests has been going for you guys ??

also after reading i saw some arguments about jund Charm this card it's one of the key cards of the deck, because his versatility against agro decks, against grave decks it's an auto include in this deck as a 3-4 of.

abou Masked Admirers and Elvish Visionary, well i don't like any of them, if i would include and test any, i give visionary a shoot, because he's an early blocker and an early pointsof damages, i'll built this deck well let's say, in real life..ehehhe...and i'll play some fnm to test it...just hope that conflux bring some good drawing spell in black or green, i think that it's the only type of card that is missing to complete for sure the power of the deck!

i saw some list as well, i can say that i haven't liked at all flore's list, to me it's more a agro version of the archetype, my opinion! i'm playing the list posted on the opening post. and i haven't had any problems with it! it had been great against control and agro decks (AkA: Faeries, Kithkin, 5 Colours Conrol, Demi-Red) as i said before more tests are need to evolve the deck more and more!
I'd actually like to see a single siege-gang commander in flores' list, however rather than the single SGC, maybe a 2nd broodmate dragon is better.

I love his 4 firespout 4 jund charm build.
with all your removal, i think the shriekmaws are overkill, and you could pack a couple more fatties instead.

Well, it's tutorable spot removal...but I suppose you're right.
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