Five Color Control

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Five-Color Control

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What is Five Color Control?

Five Color Control is a deck that uses the Vivid Land plus Reflecting Pool manabase in order to have access to the best effects in the format. It keeps up with aggro in the early game with speed bumps like Kitchen Finks, point removal like Bant Charm, and sweepers like Wrath of God. It gains card advantage as the game goes on via Mulldrifter and Esper Charm. It counters your opponents key spells with cards like Cryptic Command before it eventually finishes the game with a gamebreaking spell like Cruel Ultimatum followed up by a finisher like Cloudthresher. It is one of the best decks in the format, and should definitely be part of your testing gauntlet.

What cards go in Five Color Control?

The sample lists below give you a pretty good idea of what solid card selections for this archetype are. Most of these lists are here as a starting point, which you will adapt to your metagame.

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Sample Lists:

Show


Patrick Chapin's

// Lands
2 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
4 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
1 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
2 [LRW] Vivid Grove
2 [5E] Island
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
2 [SHM] Mystic Gate
3 [EVE] Flooded Grove
1 [9E] Caves of Koilos
1 [EVE] Cascade Bluffs

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Cloudthresher
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
1 [EVE] Nucklavee

// Spells
2 [ALA] Bant Charm
3 [10E] Condemn
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [ALA] Esper Charm
3 [MOR] Negate
2 [7E] Remove Soul
2 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum
1 [10E] Pyroclasm
3 [u] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 [SHM] Plumeveil
SB: 2 [10E] Flashfreeze
SB: 2 [SHM] Memory Plunder
SB: 1 [ALA] Resounding Wave
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [10E] Wrath of God

Gerry Thompson's List:

4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 River Kelpie
1 Oona, Queen Of The Fae

2 Story Circle
2 Bant Charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
2 Oona's Grace
3 Remove Soul
2 Firespout
4 Wrath Of God


2 Island
2 Adarkar Wastes
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Underground River
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 4 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Mind Shatter


Chris Woltereck, 2nd Place - SCG Cruise Qualifier

2 Cloudthresher
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee
1 Shriekmaw

3 Bant Charm
4 Cryptic Command
3 Esper Charm
1 Makeshift Mannequin
3 Negate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Firespout
1 Mind Shatter
4 Wrath of God

1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Flooded Grove
3 Island
2 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Marsh
3 Vivid Meadow

SB: 2 Cloudthresher
SB: 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Condemn
SB: 2 Counterbore
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Mind Shatter

Joseph Keaveny - 3rd Place SCG Cruise Qualifier

2 Cloudthresher
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Nucklavee
1 Shriekmaw

1 Ajani Vengeant

4 Bant Charm
4 Cryptic Command
3 Esper Charm
1 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Negate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Mind Shatter
1 Pyroclasm
4 Wrath of God

1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Flooded Grove
3 Island
2 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Marsh
3 Vivid Meadow

SB: 2 Cloudthresher
SB: 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 3 Condemn
SB: 2 Counterbore
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Mind Shatter
SB: 2 Jace Beleren

Ali Aintrazi - 7th Place SCG Cruise Qualifier

2 Archon of Justice
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Bant Charm
3 Broken Ambitions
2 Condemn
4 Cryptic Command
2 Esper Charm
1 Oona's Grace
2 Firespout
2 Mind Shatter
3 Wrath of God

2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Springjack Pasture
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow
3 Yavimaya Coast

SB: 2 Cloudthresher
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Condemn
SB: 1 Esper Charm
SB: 1 Call the Skybreaker
SB: 1 Mind Shatter
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Ajani Vengeant



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Matchups:

Note: I've only included matchups for decks that have Top 8'd recent US events, which for now, is only Magic-League tourneys and The Star City Cruise Qualifier.

Kithkin: 60/40. The key here is to Wrath when under early pressure, holding them off with Cryptic Commands and Kitchen Finks - and to make sure you don't let a Cloudgoat Ranger or Spectral Procession beat you.

Red Deck: 65/35. This matchup is really easy, as your Bant Charms, possibly Condemns, and Cryptic Commands to hold off their Demigods, sweepers to stop the early aggressive drops, and Kitchen Finks to ensure their burn doesn't get there. Their main way to beat you is a Stigma Lasher hitting you followed by a lot of burn. If you can stop an early Lasher, you should pretty much always do so.

Five Color Merfolk: 60/40. The important thing is to be sure to save your answers for the big threats, like Chameleon Colossus or Oona. Sygg can be annoying, as he gets in under countermagic and starts to counter your removal, but this matchup shouldn't be too hard. Timely Wrathing, smart removal usage, and superior card advantage should carry you to victory here.

Faeries: 50/50. This matchup got a lot better with the printing of Esper Charm. As long as you can answer their Bitterblossom, they have a tough time actually winning the game. They become very reliant on Mistbind Clique, who is pretty easily answered. However, if they play Bitterblossom and you can't answer it, you're in trouble. This matchup is a coin toss, and will come down to playskill more often than not.

Mirror: 50/50. The mirror match comes down to who can resolve and protect their bomb first. Mana and card advantage are crucial. In this matchup, you love to see opening hands with 4-5 lands in them. You have to be careful when you tap out, as you really don't want an opponent resolving a Cruel Ultimatum, Oona, a Nucklavee, or something similar against you.

How to Build a Manabase

TheHouseJackBuilt;17168680 wrote:
This is my very basic and simple way of doing it.

Steps:
Vivid Lands:
1) You are a heavily blue deck (assuming that you're not playing Stacks), so run 4 Vivid Creeks.
2) Most 5cc decks have high emphasis on Bant colors with splashes of Red and Black. You have to ask yourself: Is my deck more heavily Green or White? The answer is most likely white, considering you're probably running 6-8 charms that use UW in the casting cost. So you should add 4 Vivid Meadow.
3) Next ask yourself if you want to run 11 or 12 Vivid Lands. Most people choose to run 12, so I'll use that as an example. If you;'re running 12, then you have 4 slots to play with; this is where you add in your Green, so 3 Vivid Groves.
4) Lastly, ask yourself: Am I more heavily Red or Black? Most people answer Black because it's BBB for Ultimatum, BB for Mind Shatter, B for Esper Charm, and the only Red is Pyroclasm/Firespout and the double Red for Ultimatum. So you fill in the last Vivid slot with 1 Vivid Marsh.

Filter Lands:
1) Since you're more focused on the UWG colors, run about 3 of UG Filter (Flooded Grove) and 3 of the UW one (Mystic Gate). Of course you could run one as a 4-of, or maybe one as a 2-of, but 3 of each is a nice midway strategy
2) If you're more heavily black, run 2 UB Filterlands (Sunken Ruins). If more heavily Red, run 2 Cascade Bluffs.
3) If your answer was Black to step 2, run 1 Cascade Bluffs. If your answer was Red, then run 1 Sunken Ruins.

(Most people will be more heavily black)

Reflecting Pools:
1) Run 4 of them.

Filler:
1) Most lists will ahve 1-3 spots left. Some people just play Islands, since they activate all the Filter Lands, and I personally choose to run Painlands for a little extra fixing. If running pains, your preference between Adarkar Wastes and Yavimaya Coast.



Hope this was semi-helpful!

Wasn't there already a thread established for Quick'N'Toast?
Yes! A fresh new thread, hopefully this will be put in the DTB section soon.
Wasn't there already a thread established for Quick'N'Toast?

Atmapalazzo asked me to make a new one.
Ali is one of my playtesting partners and good friends. I ran that 75 at the SCG qualifier, and went 2-1-2 drop.
Atmapalazzo asked me to make a new one.

Very simple, very solid thread. Good job.
Good thread. Please put the winning decklists in sblocks, it'd look much more attractive and less cluttered that way!
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
Moving this thread to the DtB now...

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Excellent, this has been way over due! Of course the most versatile deck is a DtB!
I've been testing a deck with Cruel Ultimatum for the past couple weeks, but I didn't spread it into [mana]G[/mana] beyond Firespout and avoided [mana]W[/mana] entirely. With the manabase so flexible, though, I suppose it's doable.

I don't have some stellar T-8 finish to attach my list to, and it might be getting off-topic to really post that list here (now, anyway). Instead, what about some of the alternatives? Even if this takes it out of 5-color, I think the discussion remains germane, as the central win con and strategy remains.

Basic staples I heartily agree with:
Reflecting Pool and Vivid lands, of course.
Cruel Ultimatum, though I prefer 3 instead of 2.
Nucklavee, again I run 2 instead of 1.
Firespout, an essential piece, probably as a 2-of.
Mulldrifter, Cryptic Command, and Wrath of God. No good reason not to run 4 of each, though WoG wasn't on my initial list and now I feel sheepish for it.

Beyond these, though, the rest feels pretty negotiable, with a lot of room for improvement.

Cards none of them ran that might be worth consideration:
Shriekmaw (3 or 4, probably instead of Kitchen Finks)
Bitterblossom (4-of as an alternative to Cloudthresher)
Torrent of Souls (1 or 2 max)

Things I don't like from the CQ decks or Chapin:
Pyroclasm - Naya Charm has more versatility for little marginal cost.
Negate and Remove Soul - Too narrow in their applications, too often have one when you need the other. Bant Charm would also fail this test, IMHO, but it also obsoletes Condemn in this deck.

So, my $0.02 for this deck idea.
Ali is one of my playtesting partners and good friends. I ran that 75 at the SCG qualifier, and went 2-1-2 drop.

What would you change about the list? Could the two draws have been avoided, or does the deck need to play some more ways to close out games?

I imagine you'd find a way to get up to four Esper charm. It seems odd to run only two.

How did Mind Shatter fare in Ultimatum's place?
and about ajani vegeant in toast deck???
I do not understand why some guys use him in this deck. who can explain me why and if it works in this deck?
and about ajani vegeant in toast deck???
I do not understand why some guys use him in this deck. who can explain me why and if it works in this deck?

I believe he's a sideboard card for the mirror to buy some tempo - as the mirror has a tough time actually killing a planeswalker if it resolves.

Also, GerryT's latest list is being added to the OP.

Sblocking the sample lists as well.
Okay a couple of things...

First and foremost, some people in the last thread seemed quite confused what the difference is between worlds and a pro tour. Gindy won a PRO TOUR with Rock Elves... Uri Peleg won WORLDS last year with Doran. Doran hasn't been around for a year, strictly because it's game against the top deck in the format was atrocious.

Now about Rock against fae. I am a strict believer that if ROCK is built correctly and played optimally, it should have a chance against any deck. Rock has been one of my favorite deck types in a long time... But I do not believe there has been a truly good rock deck in years.

Next... I believe oSPOONSo was trying to ask a legimate question. Purity may cost 6 mana, but demigod red is NOT known for killing people quickly. This is why most builds run 24-25 lands, and quite expensive mid range beats such as Demigod and a fully activated figure. The deck is solid, but it never had an amazing match against five-color. It's match against Five-Color was relatively bad when they had magus, and as you may guess was much worse when they took it out. This is due to the midrange red deck not being able to kill the player before they stabalized.

Remember, I am referring to GOOD players playing these decks, not your ten year old cousin sally. Five Color was a great deck it was just very difficult to play out of a lot of situations, making it quite unpopular.

I used a one of of Purity in my list before Shards left. It's a great way to stabalize against red when you already have a runed halo out... Making it extremely difficult for any red deck to really kill the opponent.

And one last thing....

Cruel Ultimatum is the real deal... At least for now... There is nothing more back breaking, ball busting, or baby beating then that card. It's Insane advantage up the ass with you drawing 4, the opponent discarding 3 and the board and life totals being affected somewhat.

In Quick N Toast, you do NOT need the big fat beaters to win you the game... You just need such an overall insane advantage to where your kitchen finks or something else retarded can seal the deal. With Five Color, I have won so many games just doing retarded things, like having 6 cards in my hand, with my opponent at zero cards, and the only thing on the board is a kitchen finks. It's really not that difficult to pull off victories just off of pure card advantage, which is where Cruel Ultimatum actually shines.
Abundance

With the rise of 5 color control, I think that it may be this cards time to shine. Think about it. People run Fathom Thrawl to do the same thing this card can do, on every draw. You will be getting what you need, bussiness spells, or land. What do you think? Sleeper in the new standard? 0.o (That might be streching it >.>) Sorry for the spelling error lol. Corrected.

I posted a thread in the general section about this but now that there is a new thread, what do you guys think? 0.o
What would you change about the list? Could the two draws have been avoided, or does the deck need to play some more ways to close out games?

I imagine you'd find a way to get up to four Esper charm. It seems odd to run only two.

How did Mind Shatter fare in Ultimatum's place?

If I could change one thing about the list, it would be -3 Broken Ambitions +3 Negate.

EDIT: There were quite a lot of 5-color decks there.
To Knighty:
Hmmm...to me it seems it's competition in the deck is Oona's Grace, the question is which one is better. I may have to go with Oona's grace simply because I'm more comfrotable with it. But playtest the idea between Oona's Grace and Abundance. Maybe it would be a better run.
To Knighty:
Hmmm...to me it seems it's competition in the deck is Oona's Grace, the question is which one is better. I may have to go with Oona's grace simply because I'm more comfrotable with it. But playtest the idea between Oona's Grace and Abundance. Maybe it would be a better run.

Well if it's competing with grace, I think that Abundance just wins. My list runs 4x Esper Charm 4x Mulldrifter and 2x Cruel. With Abundance out, if I have enough land, I can simply mill skip lands all together. and get to these cards, which in turn, let me get to more cards, ect, ect, ect.

On the flip-side. I don't actually gain any CA. I still draw the same rate. Plus retrace helps get rid of land for more cards, the problem is it actually costs mana.

It's a hard choice IMO. I'm gonna test this extensively. I think the card is worth it, just needs to be given a shot.
abundance is probabally worse than grace in the mirror because it is sorcery speed and 4 mana so it will be hit by counterspells easily and dies to esper charm

grace is practically imune to counterspells and is instant speed

the real MU you want abundance/grace for is the mirror so overall i think grace is better as a 1-2 of
I tried testing it, and it is a little slow. I think I just over all prefer Oona's Grace because of the instant speed. And it doesn't get countered. And I found it sticky when I had to tap out or wait a few turns extra to play it so I don't tap out. Idk, it's wierd and it made my hands wierd. I just can't see a true advantage it has over Oona since its just more expensive, counterable, and targetable.
Howdy, Larson.

My recent thoughts on QnT...

It seems evident to everyone that a manabase with 8 vivids cannot reliably cast Ultimatum, which is on the opposite colors of most of our important early game spells.

On the opposite hand, people seem to think that a Nuckles/Ultimatum combination is the best way to win for this deck (something that is hard to contest, given the sheer power of that spell).

The problem remains, you need 11-12 vivids to make the colors work together, and that would make QnT the slowest deck in the history of competitive Magic.

Pesonally, I think the answer lies in Ambitions/Condemn and perhaps (still wondering) Capsule. With those, you can safely operate in the first 3-4 turns of the game while adjusting your mana with taplands.

In short, my point is that a QnT without Condemn and a 2cc counter is sub optimal (I opt for Ambitions because it's not conditional but I'm open to suggestions).

My current attempt at QnT:

Show

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
4 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
4 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
3 [10E] Adarkar Wastes
2 [10E] Underground River
2 [SHM] Mystic Gate
1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
2 [EVE] Nucklavee

// Spells
4 [10E] Condemn
4 [MOR] Negate
3 [ALA] Bant Charm
3 [ALA] Esper Charm
2 [LRW] Makeshift Mannequin
4 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command

2 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [LRW] Cloudthresher
Howdy, Larson.

My recent thoughts on QnT...

It seems evident to everyone that a manabase with 8 vivids cannot reliably cast Ultimatum, which is on the opposite colors of most of our important early game spells.

On the opposite hand, people seem to think that a Nuckles/Ultimatum combination is the best way to win for this deck (something that is hard to contest, given the sheer power of that spell).

The problem remains, you need 11-12 vivids to make the colors work together, and that would make QnT the slowest deck in the history of competitive Magic.

Pesonally, I think the answer lies in Ambitions/Condemn and perhaps (still wondering) Capsule. With those, you can safely operate in the first 3-4 turns of the game while adjusting your mana with taplands.

In short, my point is that a QnT without Condemn and a 2cc counter is sub optimal (I opt for Ambitions because it's not conditional but I'm open to suggestions).

My current attempt at QnT:

Show

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
4 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
4 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
3 [10E] Adarkar Wastes
2 [10E] Underground River
2 [SHM] Mystic Gate
1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
2 [EVE] Nucklavee

// Spells
4 [10E] Condemn
3 [ALA] Bant Charm
3 [ALA] Esper Charm
2 [LRW] Makeshift Mannequin
4 [10E] Wrath of God
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [LRW] Broken Ambitions
2 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [LRW] Cloudthresher

Imo, your idea is that adjusting your mana base could be much more detrimental to the game since it is later on when there are bigger threats and larger spells. Setting up your mana base from the start gives the oponnent 3 free turns at the most before your able to start doing things. I would prefer to sacrifice my turns 1-2 to set up a solid base. My list actually only runs 9 Vivids and I cast Cruel and Ajani with no problem. I lean harder on my filters than vivids.

I have a huge problem with Broken Ambitions since its only good in the begginning. But in the mid-late game its aweful. And when your playing a deck whose whole goal is to survive into late game, I thiknk it is counter productive. I would rather see a Punish Ignorance.

Your 2cc Counter is better suit for Negate. Negate counters everything you need that you can't answer. It hits bitterblossoms, Walkers, and is much more benificial in the counter war. Condition of the spell being a noncreature, that doesn't matter. If your running 4 Condemn, 4 WoG, and 3 Bant, creatures should be the last thing on your mind.

My Current List:
I must agree on negate, especially given how many mirrors is likely to face nowadays.

I dislike the list, though.
I must agree on negate, especially given how many mirrors is likely to face nowadays.

I dislike the list, though.

Well Negate is extremely viable considering how common planewalkers are and how big some of the spells are now.

do you think you could elaborate on why you don't like the list?
Mostly is my strong dislike for miser's singleton. I prefer consistancy and my stance was, and still is, that people don't consider reliablity properly when building QNT.
Consistency is good, yes. However in a deck like this you're drawing so many cards that I think you can afford to skew the numbers a bit. Mulldrifter (plus Mannequin), Esper Charm, Oona's Grace and Cryptic Command all dig you deeper into your library.
Consistency is good, yes. However in a deck like this you're drawing so many cards that I think you can afford to skew the numbers a bit. Mulldrifter (plus Mannequin), Esper Charm, Oona's Grace and Cryptic Command all dig you deeper into your library.

So what? This is the reasoning I always hear in these lists' defense, and it's the worse possible. You pack cards to help you win games that you would otherwise lose, not to see if your deck can still win games with a messy list of 1x-2x.

Having 3 Condemns and 2 Negate, say, makes little sense. These are the spells you want to use to control the game when you have little mana (meaning: always in the first turns and sometimes while you're hardcasting). 3 Finks and 3 Drifter (cards you want to see early, as they set your powerful late-game) makes no sense, again. Mono mannequin? Why should I reduce the number of cards I always want to see?

And more importantly... to gain what? 2x Shriekmaw? 2x Story Circle? 1x Thresher 1x Counterbore? So I am "skewing the numbers" just to gain some spells that are dead in a variety of matchups and mildly comparable to what I already have in some other matchups. Sounds like a good deal?

Shriekmaw is inferior to both Condemn and Bant Charm in this deck. Period. Running 2x Condemn, 2x Charm, 2x Shriekmaw and 1x Halo (as I've seen people doing) doesn't imply you'll automatically lose a game, but gains you nothing over someone running 4 Condemn and 3 Charms because you will have no way to select which cards you are exactly drawing.
Consistency is good, yes. However in a deck like this you're drawing so many cards that I think you can afford to skew the numbers a bit. Mulldrifter (plus Mannequin), Esper Charm, Oona's Grace and Cryptic Command all dig you deeper into your library.

To the House:
I actually have to say I agree with you. I suppose my fear of Fae is just overwhelming my deck for some kind of versatile answers. I was leaning more towards ditching a Mulldrifter. But to be honest I'm blanking on what optimal changes can be made. Obviously downing the amount of draw. Thanks for pointing that out.

To Momo:
I agree with you, as well which is why I'm drawing blanks on changes to my deck. Dropping 1 mull or 1 esper charm I think is needed, two maybe, but I can't think of what to replace it with, maybe complete the set of WoG and add another Condemn.
To the House:
I actually have to say I agree with you. I suppose my fear of Fae is just overwhelming my deck for some kind of versatile answers. I was leaning more towards ditching a Mulldrifter. But to be honest I'm blanking on what optimal changes can be made. Obviously downing the amount of draw. Thanks for pointing that out.

thehouse was not in any way saying or implying that you should lower your amount of draw. He was trying to say that this deck draws so much that you can afford having random cards in it.

Lowering your amount of draw is a bad move.
thehouse was not in any way saying or implying that you should lower your amount of draw. He was trying to say that this deck draws so much that you can afford having random cards in it.

Lowering your amount of draw is a bad move.

Sorry I must have misread what he was saying.
Well, here's the QnT list I've been testing. It isn't my own work (I blatantly lifted it off MTGS), but I really like how it plays. Only real trouble is Faeries, which is a bad match up to begin with.

thehouse was not in any way saying or implying that you should lower your amount of draw. He was trying to say that this deck draws so much that you can afford having random cards in it.

Lowering your amount of draw is a bad move.

I didn't imply that adding a bunch of miser cards was a solid idea. I also agree with you that a deck that has a bunch of random 1 and 2 ofs is generally a bad idea.

I do however, think that a singleton Oona's Grace and/or Shriekmaw and/or Nucklavee is perfectly acceptable in this deck.
This is pert-near the right list for QnT.

// Lands
4 [LRW] Vivid Creek
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
3 [SHM] Mystic Gate
3 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
3 [LRW] Vivid Grove
3 [10E] Island (3)
1 [EVE] Cascade Bluffs
2 [LRW] Vivid Marsh
3 [LRW] Vivid Meadow

// Creatures
1 [SHM] Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [EVE] Nucklavee

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [ALA] Bant Charm
1 [EVE] Oona's Grace
2 [ALA] Esper Charm
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum
3 [MOR] Negate
2 [REW] Condemn

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [REW] Condemn
SB: 3 [LRW] Cloudthresher
SB: 2 [MOR] Mind Shatter
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
This is pert-near the right list for QnT.

In don't think so. More on why below:

I do however, think that a singleton Oona's Grace and/or Shriekmaw and/or Nucklavee is perfectly acceptable in this deck.

Acceptable? Sure it is.

I repeat - you can have a lot of non-optimal lists of this deck which still win, but that doesn't make they're optimal, just that people haven't found a way around QnT yet and would lose to pretty much every variant of it.

Avenged's list has nothing inherently bad in it (even if I still think Condemn should be a 4-of) but this doesn't make it optimal.

A list capable of breaking Fae in a half while keeping its power against the other decks is my definition of optimal. Nothing less.

Finally - you tested on your own skin that you CANNOT cast reliably the charms and ultimatum with a classic QNT manabase. It may seem to work for some games but once you get to a larger sample it proves less and less safe.

You need to ramp to at least 11 Vivids to do so (which increases the need for cheap spells like Condemn and Negate).

Finally, two personal opinions of mine:

1. Nuckles > Oona. He plus Ultimatum is one of the gruesomest things I've seen happening in a MtG game. Also, with his ability to return Commands or Charms from the grave he basically gives you the tool to protect him, win with him, or even play a longer game.

2. Ajani Vengeant is not necessary. Jace improves Fae and the mirror a lot.
Heya Adam, I'm curious about Patrick Chapin's deck. There's a mistake in the OP; he's got 3 Negate MD and 3 SB. I'd love to see the actual deck, if you know where to find the list, could you please fix it in the OP? Thanks!
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4½ Color Control

Land: 26
4 Adarkar Waste
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Mystic Gate
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Vivid Crag
4 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Marsh
4 Vivid Meadow

Creatures: 10
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mulldrifter
2 Nucklavee

Other Spells: 24
4 Bant Charm
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
3 Negate
3 Remove Soul
4 Wrath of God

Sideboard: 15
4 Condemn
3 Jace Beleren
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Oona’s Grace
4 Runed Halo
2 Mind Shatter
Heya Adam, I'm curious about Patrick Chapin's deck. There's a mistake in the OP; he's got 3 Negate MD and 3 SB. I'd love to see the actual deck, if you know where to find the list, could you please fix it in the OP? Thanks!

Fixed. Accidentally copied GerryT's sideboard again.
In don't think so. More on why below:



Acceptable? Sure it is.

I repeat - you can have a lot of non-optimal lists of this deck which still win, but that doesn't make they're optimal, just that people haven't found a way around QnT yet and would lose to pretty much every variant of it.

Avenged's list has nothing inherently bad in it (even if I still think Condemn should be a 4-of) but this doesn't make it optimal.

I've said before that Condemns were just spot removal 5-6, and that hasn't really changed. I also run 2 more in the side for various aggro variants.

A list capable of breaking Fae in a half while keeping its power against the other decks is my definition of optimal. Nothing less.

OR breaking all other decks in half while keeping power against Fae. Seems better right?

Finally - you tested on your own skin that you CANNOT cast reliably the charms and ultimatum with a classic QNT manabase. It may seem to work for some games but once you get to a larger sample it proves less and less safe.

I said it. The manabase that I using before could not reliably cast all of my spells. The manabase I use now can however, and out of about 35-40 test games I haven't had color problems. 26/12 is the right land/vivid split, it works perfectly.

You need to ramp to at least 11 Vivids to do so (which increases the need for cheap spells like Condemn and Negate).

My list meets all of these criteria.

Ajani Vengeant is not necessary. Jace improves Fae and the mirror a lot.

You should test him, Ajani is just disgusting. I was a non-believer at first but then was convinced otherwise. I've had a lot of experience with him, and he wins the mirror every time he is cast. I urge you to try him over Jace.
if you can cast esper charm reliably why not play two of it over two drifter?

btw i really love the new list will be playing either this or Ubw fae most likely this
ok, so i'm just getting back into magic after being out for a while (left at approximately right after last worlds) and i was wondering if anyone could just give me maybe a run down on exactly how this deck plays? It looks like it has potential to be great and is exactly the type of deck i love to play. Thanks in advance.
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because the drifter can actually win the game, whereas an esper charm can't attack. this deck relies on finks, drifters, and those random fatties to win.

now my question: my meta is very faeires heavy (yet), so what are the best creatures to use in conjunction with cruel ultimatum (a card i'm biting my lip at and just using) besides a singleton nucklavee and shriekmaw

archon, oona, etc...

for the moment, my meta is still creature heavy

and also, what's good against tokens, because i just got blow out by them on friday

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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