Tokens

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Hi guys.

Given the successful results of the efforts made in the R/x Aggro thread (who was basically a think-tank thread more than a thread discussing a specific decklist) in coming up with lists strongly resemblant of Demi Red (later becoming the most successful RDW variant) I decided to make a similar think-tank thread about Tokens variants.

I was mostly attracted by this because the circumstances resemble exactly what happened with RDW: there is obvious potential in the cardpool, but the meta seems unforgiving to non-optimized variants of this deck.

It would be interesting then to analyze the reasons of these difficulties and overcome them coming out with something really solid, like we did with Demi Red.

-----------------------TOKENS: HISTORICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL REVIEW---------------



Show

Tokens decks were born with Lorwyn, when boggarts promoted a new "infestation" mentality for RB decks as opposed to the classic burn/disruption based approach.

Later, as the meta evolved, it departed more and more from the original boggart tribal theme and proved strong in a metagame of mostly tempo and midrange decks, where your pace in laying threats on the table became more important than your capability of removing said threats.

The core philosophy of Tokens decks was to place a superior quantity of threats on the table, and then recover the quality disadvantage with effects that made numbers matter (Grave Pact, Nantuko Husk, and such). It was effectively a midrange deck that played a pack of little critters rather than one single, big fat.

While this philosophy proved deadly effective against UB Fae and UW Folk, as well as against other midrange decks (Elf Rock, Doran Rock) it suffeed a lot from mass sweepers. While Tokens had some representatives at the Pro Tour Hollywood (Nassif-All-Critters, Stu pact, and others) they still weren't a dominating force in the meta.

To solve its weakness to the rare control decks in the format, two road has mainly been tried.

One has its result in William Cavaglieri's Torrent-Tokens which played 16 highly disruptive cards between MD and SB (Thoughtseize, Magus of The Moon, Fulminator Mage, Avalanche Riders) 12 of whom were effectively doubled thanks to Torrent of Soul's presence.

The other path has been tried with a Giant-tribal variant in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block Constructed, with Furystokens, a deck capable of refilling a just Wrath-ed field with a single card.

With the rotation of TSP, the deck lost a few cards, but gained others which seems obviously synergic with the basic concept. Hence why the concerted efforts to traslate Tokens in the new Lor-Sha-Ala metagame, even if we still have to figure out the optimal suits and even the main colors.


--------------------------------------OPTIONS----------------------------------------



As for my previous archetype thread, I don't list cards by card types, nor by cost. I rather group them for the use they have in the deck. Many of those cards do, however, have multiple purposes, and will be therefore listed in more than one sblock. Here I'll also list things that are not necessarily linked to the concept of the deck, but could nonetheless end in the deck as they are fairly solid.

Also, given that curving is somehow important, you will nonetheless get a final sblock where I list cards by cost.

OVERSBLOCK!

tokens fabric

Rhys, the Redeemed: while somewhat clunky, it's still a 1-drop that your opponent will be forced to deal with, sooner or later.

Bitterblossom: strongest fabric in the format, and the main reason to go with Black in the first place. A bit easier to remove in this multicolor metagame than it was in the past, but still extremely solid.

Dragon Fodder: not the old Mogg War Marshal, but has the virtue of being fast at placing blockers on your side.

Necrogenesis: conditional, but a card to keep in mind in case a graveyard-based deck arises.

Imperious Perfect and Jund Battlemage: inferior to many other fabrics, but you could be running them anyway for color reasons.

Goblin Assault: resilient vs Control, but crumbles to a single blocker. Has potential, but it's risky as it negates you options.

Sprouting Thrinax: insane, and the main reason to go Green. Stalls attackers, sanctions removals, and if he doesn't have anything else to do, it goes for the beats.

Spectral Procession: the main reason to go White. This and thrinax are the best 3-drops for the deck but their manacosts fight one with the other. Still, great CA, great post Wrath (or anything similar), great to stall aggro, great in general. The manacost is the only excuse for not playing this.

Marsh Flitter: like Fodder, her main virtues lies in how fast she is to get into gear. Pay mana, get tokens, period. She is also incredibly splash-friendly and allows some weird trick when blocking.

Hunting Triad: not very interesting, but can end up in your deck either for color reasons or to follow a tribal theme.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: sort of a worse Bitterblossom for most of the games until it eventually her last effect trigger and things gets ridicolous. Definitely worth consideration, especially if White is your main color.

Ajani Goldmane: as a fabric, this guy sucks. You'll get a tokens from him in, like, 1 games out of 20. However, if you are playing him, it's not certainly for the King Leonidas token.

Garruk Wildspeaker: requires an heavy commitment in Green, but he's generally reliable and flexible, much like Elspeth, and can make a grand finale for you.

Sarkhan Vol: generally he makes tokens much more rarely than his fellow 'walkers, but doesn't matter since you're not playing him from the token production.

Creakwood Liege: kinda the the opposing philosophy of Fodder and Flitter - does nothing immediately, but becomes increasingly broken in the long term. It stresses both the deck's strong suit and weak suit, so it's a very risky call.

Mycoloth: same concept as liege, except ten times as risky. Card disadvantage if he's killed immediately.

Knight-Captain of Eos: a way too narrow effect for a maindeck card, but it's an eventual option to break Aggro mirrors. His best trait is that if the opponent sees him, it will fire even a Flame Javelin at him because it can prevent even 10 demigod damage.

Siege-Gang Commander: if your curve hits 5 mana, this is the best fabric you could be playing. has synergy with an absurd number of cards and enables broken plays. In some rare cases he also casts removals. Needless to say, great to play post Wrath.

Cloudgoat Ranger: White's idea of a mildly worse Siege-Gang Commander. Not to overlook.

Broodmate Dragon: I discourage reaching 3 with the curve, but if you do, you do for this guy.

Rise of the Hobgoblins: while it pales in comparison to some other options, it still gives you more tokens than anything else in a late-late-late game. This can be an advantage in some instances, like endless mirror matches.


mass pump


Nantuko Husk: incredibly synergic with Sarkhan Vol and Grave Pact, but needs tokens on the field to do anything. A lot weaker than in the past, in this age of mass sweepers.

Grixis Charm: cheap and flexible, but it would be the only reason to go Blue, which is a huge, huge Con.

Sarkhan Vol: another good reason to go Green. Fires of Yavimaya + tokens = good. Just remember to leave a blocker for him, but then again, this applies to all walkers.

Garruk Wildspeaker: chosing between the tokens and overrun is annoying, but overrun effects are always good.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: she often pumps a single one, or makes all invincible; I don't see her ultimate trigger too often, but it's very painful for control. Then again, control decks should be able to remove walkers without attacking into them.

Ajani Goldmane: defensively speaking, the best pumper around. His effect is also cumulative, making it an effective "good game, mate" if not solved immediately. The problem is that without tokens on the fields it does just nothing, unlike all the other cards in the list.

Creakwood Liege: pumps some things, namely faerie tokens, flitter and her tokens, saproling tokens, thrinax, and of course... other lieges in your deck. The drawback is that you have to run a slow fabric like him.

Furystoke Giant: as a pumper effect, not so great as it's temporary. But he has other applications that make him worth a thought.

Torrent of Souls: once a staple, less so today. Pro1: faster than any other pumper at turning tokens into damage; pro2: if you don't have tokens, he brings back a token-fabric into play. Con1: costs five; con2: forces you to run at least 18 creatures no matter what.


recursion effect


Makeshift Mannequin: cheap and fast, but not really synergistic with this deck.

Profane Command: does a lot of things, but does them damn slowly. Worth a consideration, though.

Ranger of Eos: he doesn't really "recur" your guys, but if you are playing certain creatures (Figure, Fanatic, Forge-Tender) he does essentially the same thing. Interesting, although it demands a certain commitment in deckbuilding.

Reveillark: very strong with some cards, namely Knight-Captain, Siege-Gang, Figure of Destiny. Like Ranger, it's very powerful if you tune your deck for it.

Torrent of Souls: if you play recursion, this is probably the best option due to the added effects, although Lark beats this as far as just recursion goes.


removals/disruption/utility

Thoughtseize: optimal disruption spell, less powerful against control decks like Lark or Toast who pack many similar answers and recursion effect, but very strong vs tempo.

Bone Splinters: synergic with the deck's theme, with Sarkhan Vol, and kills everything. Definitely worth a thought.

Burrenton Forge-Tender: slows down Demigod Red, and stops Firespout. An extremely good option if you're in White.

Mogg Fanatic: removal with legs, shuts down things like a turn 1 figure. Less good with less UB Fae and UW Folk decks around the world.

Guttural Response: worth a look if countermagic troubles you.

Vexing Shusher: like Guttural, but more vulnerable to removals. It's essentially worse than Guttural vs Control, and better vs Tempo. Also, recurrable with Lark and has been Lark's buddy in the past season.

Tidehollow Sculler: like Thoughtseize, good vs Tempo decks, but will often just die vs Control decks. Larkable, but you'd prefer it not to die anyway.

Runed Halo: stops Demigod of Revenge and man-lands, but it's underwhelming in many other applications.

Oblivion Ring: slow but terribly versatile. Very appealing if you are in White, especially since the deck has not many other ways to remove artifacts and enchantments.

Fulminator Mage: strong, but needs other land-destruction effects to be paired with. Can't reliably destroy lands all alone. He's also not good if you cannot recur him with, say, Lark or Torrent.

Grixis Charm: same thing we said before - cheap and versatile, but forces you to Blue all alone. Your choice to make.

Naya Charm: not really much interesting except for the "tap all" effect. Perhaps it will win games?

Murderous Redcap: used to be much, much better in the past metagame, but he's still worth a mention. Also: Larkable guy.

Sarkhan Vol: "threaten" is not technically removal if you don't run a sac-engine (with Husk being currently the only candidate) but comes handy sometimes. Besides, this guy is at the same time a pump effect, a token fabric and an occasional utility spell. What do you ask more than this?

Grave Pact: while it allows you to wrath the other side of the table, it requires a heavy Black committment and tokens on the field, to work. An hard choice to take, as he can literally win you games that you would otherwise lose, or sit in your hand doing nothing.

Furystoke Giant: Red's idea of a Grave Pact. Has just the same virtues and the same problems, but a different mana cost.

Caldera Hellion: a Wrath that leaves a body, but also a Wrath that costs 5 and doesn't kill everything. It's woth it? Time will tell.

Shriekmaw: crazy with Torrent, but a bit outdated now that he hits a lot less creatures in Standard than it did. It can't thouch Oona, Demigod, Gouger, Colossus, and artifact creatures.

Spitebellows: see Shriekmaw, except this kills a lot more things but costs more.

Primal Command: can be heavy lifegain, land destruction, creature tutor, and such. Usually you don't need these things, but it's always good to know it's out there.

Profane Command: as previously said, it's powerful (as a recursion tool just like as a removal) but quite costy.


just-good

Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves and mana accel in general: useful if you want to run a "Fires"-like variant, or if you want to set Green as the main color to speed the deck up. Garruk also helps, and VERY occasionally Imperious Perfect could pump Llanowar Elves.

Figure of Destiny: demands a committment in RW and rewards you with one of the best creatures in T2.

Ashenmoor Gouger and Boggart Ram-Gang: these guys will help you if you're trying to build up a curve.

Kitchen Finks: they add anti-Aggro measures.

Chamaleon Colossus: a "just damn solid" creature for mainly-green variants. Again, it's very situational, but it can benefit from being an Elf.

Demigod of Revenge: he was used a lot in transformational sideboards of Torrent-Tokens. He can kill damn fast and adds a lot of value vs Control.


conventional card advantage engines

Elvish Visionary: the cheaper option, mostly considered filler. Some players like it though, especially as a budget option.

Phyrexian Rager: used in some pre-rotation list. Back then he had advantages in his synergy with Grave Pact, though.

Dusk Urchins: one option that never gets considered, despite being often a better Phyrexian Rager.

Tar Fiend: if you can make this resolve against Control, you're in a good shape. Remember the golden rule of devour: don't eat everything if you don't need to.

Skullmulcher: basically a Tar Fiend that is good against other things too.



cards, sorted by curve


1cc: birds, elves, 'seize, figure, fanatic, rhys, guttural, splinter.

2cc: blossom, fodder, shriek, sculler, shusher, halo.

3cc: assault, perfect, battlemage, thrinax, procession, husk, finks, ram-gang, gouger, fulminator, O-Ring, G-Charm, N-Charm, bello.

4cc: Ajani, Elspeth, Garruk, Sarkhan, Ruel, flitter, triad, C-liege, pact, redcap, colossus, mannequin.

5cc: S-G-C, cloudgoat, knight-captain, furystoke, torrent, lark, primal, demigod.

6cc and beyond: broodmate, profane, hobgoblins.




--------------------------------LIST, LIST, LIST!--------------------------------------




OVERSBLOCK!

Some great decklist from the past...

Goblins/All-Critters by Gabriel Nassif (day 2 at Pro Tour Hollywood)

4 Auntie's Hovel
3 Graven Cairns
2 Keldon Megaliths
5 Mountain
1 Pendelhaven
3 Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
3 Greater Gargadon
4 Knucklebone Witch
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Marsh Flitter
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Mudbutton Torchrunner
4 Shadow Guildmage
4 Siege-Gang Commander


Sideboard:

3 Earwig Squad
4 Grave Pact
2 Loxodon Warhammer
2 Murderous Redcap
4 Thoughtseize


Fury Husk/Stu Pact by Stuart Wright (day 2 at Pro Tour Hollywood)

4 Auntie's Hovel
1 Kher Keep
7 Mountain
1 Pendelhaven
4 Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
3 Furystoke Giant
4 Greater Gargadon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Marsh Flitter
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Nantuko Husk
4 Shadow Guildmage
4 Bitterblossom
2 Nameless Inversion
1 Slaughter Pact

Sideboard:

4 Dragon's Claw
2 Extirpate
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Slaughter Pact
4 Thoughtseize


Furystokens by Robert Cash (TOP8 at Block Constructed Pro Tour Qualifier in Sacramento, California)

60 cards

4 Ancient Amphitheater
4 Fetid Heath
1 Plains
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Rugged Prairie
2 Swamp
3 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
4 Windbrisk Heights

4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Furystoke Giant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Marsh Flitter
3 Shriekmaw

4 Bitterblossom
1 Cenn's Enlistment
4 Nameless Inversion
1 Raven's Crime
4 Spectral Procession
2 Torrent of Souls

Sideboard:

4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Firespout
3 Guttural Response
1 Shriekmaw



Torrent-Tokens by William Cavaglieri (winner of Italian Nationals)

3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Graven Cairns
1 Kher Keep
4 Mountain
1 Pendelhaven
4 Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Marsh Flitter
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Nantuko Husk
4 Shadow Guildmage
2 Shriekmaw
4 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Torrent of Souls

Sideboard:

4 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Grave Pact
2 Sudden Death
2 Terror


...and today's more promising experiments:

Zvi-Would-Die-Just-To-Roll-In-His-Grave by MrIndigo

// (Vol-atile) Fires of Jund

// Land - 25
5 [UNH] Forest
2 [SHM] Fire-lit Thicket
4 [6E] Karplusan Forest
4 [X] Llanowar Wastes
4 [TE] Reflecting Pool
3 [ALA] Savage Lands
2 [IA] Sulfurous Springs
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire

// Accel - 8
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
4 [AT] Llanowar Elves

// Beatz - 14
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
3 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon

// Keynote - 4
4 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol

// Saproling Burst - 4
4 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander

// Removal - 5
4 [MOR] Spitebellows
1 [LRW] Profane Command

// SIDEBOARD
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 2 [SHM] Torrent of Souls
SB: 4 [SHM] Fulminator Mage
SB: 2 [X] Grave Pact
SB: 1 [LRW] Profane Command


RW Tokens by Karthage

4 dragon fodder
4 figure of destiny
2 rhys the redeemed
4 ranger of eos
4 spectral procession
4 siege-gang commander
3 cloudgoat ranger

4 oblivion ring
3 elspeth, knight errant
2 ajani goldmane

6 mountain
10 plains
4 battlefield forge
4 rugged prairie

Sideboard:
4 runed halo
4 unmake
4 burrenton forge tender
3 knight captain of eos


RW Tokens by Greg the Egg

// Lands
4 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
6 [ALA] Plains (3)
3 [LRW] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
3 [MOR] Reveillark
3 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 [10E] Loyal Sentry

// Spells
4 [ALA] Dragon Fodder
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
4 [LRW] Lash Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [MOR] Reveillark
SB: 4 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [SHM] Guttural Response
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout


UBeR Tokens by Cosmia
// Lands
4 [ALA] Crumbling Necropolis
4 [FUT] Graven Cairns
4 [TE] Reflecting Pool
4 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
4 [5E] Underground River
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
1 [LRW] Vivid Marsh

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [ALA] Agony Warp
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LRW] Broken Ambitions
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [ALA] Dragon Fodder
4 [ALA] Grixis Charm
3 [EVE] Puncture Blast
2 [SHM] Torrent of Souls



Kaiba Corporation by Atmapalazzo

// Lands
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Wooded Bastion
9 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Brushland

// Creatures
3 Tar Fiend
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Devoted Druid
3 Knight-Captain of Eos
4 Creakwood Liege
2 Skullmulcher

// Spells
4 Bitterblossom
3 Necrogenesis
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Primal Command
3 Elspeth Knight-Errant
3 Eyeblight's Ending


Jund Tokens on a budget by Jakob Van Lunen

5 Forest
7 Mountain
4 Savage Lands
6 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
3 Vivid Crag

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Marsh Flitter
4 Nantuko Husk
3 Predator Dragon
1 Ravenous Rats
4 Sprouting Thrinax

4 Dragon Fodder
4 Hunting Triad
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Torrent of Souls





-------------------------MATCHUPS ANALYSIS/WALKTHROUGH------------------------------




OVERSBLOCK!




Neo-Control

Arguably the defining force of the new meta, neo-control decks play a combination of cheap beaters used to block, 5+ mass sweepers, varied disruption and some draw engine and lastly a variety of the best cards in the played colors.

These decks include Stoic Control, artifact decks (often Tezzeret-centric), post-rotation Lark but, first and foremost, Quick’n’Toast.

Due to the combination of its typical elements, Neo-Control can be a real pain for Tokens deck if not designed and playing optimally; luckily the matchup can be stressed to the point of being mildly favorable.

The golden rule is that both your playstyle and your build should allow you to force the player to waste one of his answers for just one of your cards. As soon as you don’t overextend you will force them to play an answer each turn without advancing their gameplan or drawing cards, until they run out of fuel and you win.

To put it shortly, against these decks anything that can win the game on his own is recommended, especially if it needs special, specific answers to be deal with.


Old-school Aggro

Matchups with Aggro vary a lot from deck to deck, but the core principle is always the same. Keep enough tokens on the field to stall them and attack with all the tokens that you don’t need to keep untapped to block a creature the following turn.

From White Weenie to burn-based Sligh the rule to follow is always the same – keep blockers, attack with others; the speed at which this happens depends on the particular Aggro you face. Of course anything that plays favourably into this strategy (like Ajani or Knight-Captain) is worth considering, and so is Grave Pact for obvious reasons, assuming you can pay its mana.

A noteworthy different Aggro matchup is Demi Red. It is fast enough, and has access to a sudden “Ops, I win” topdeck that can screw a carefully planned game where you fought hard to live until the lethal double/triple Demigod. Of course having the White removal that deals exactly with Demigod (Ring, Halo, Unmake) is the best you can hope, otherwise the next best thing is having something in the air that can rival Demigod itself (blossom tokens, dragon tokens, whatever). The point is that you must play the whole game expecting Demi to come out of nowhere.


Combo

Currently we don’t have combo decks on the horizon, but Midrange decks (even an unconventional one like this) have a traditionally bad matchup against Combo since the dawn of times. It’s necessary to warn you that the eventual presence of a strong combo decks in the future WON’T be good news for Tokens, and probably demand heavy disruption in the SB.


Tempo

Very much like Control, you aim at exhausting their answers. The difference is that you’re a lot more favored here as this deck was actually born to feast on Tempo decks like UB Fae or UW Folk. They have less answers than control, and more specific one – thus usually even 3 tokens on the field will create a chain reaction of problems that will be hard to solve, and lure them into many misplays.

The only important thing is that against Tempo speed is a lot more important, and therefore a costy must-answer threat (like, say, Demigod of Revenge) is less optimal than a “fake” threat, meaning a card that just eliminates an answer (Thoughtseize) as the latter traditionally cost less, and thus grant you a better pace.

At the moment, however, Tempo is virtually absent from the metagame and, as of such, you should prioritise tuning your build against Control.


Midrange

The way to deal with these decks, such as Tokens itself, Elf Rock, Doran Rock or the new Mana Ramp with White, resembles Aggro a lot, with a few differences.

The positive part is that Midrange develops its offensive in a way slower fashion than Aggro, and thus your counter-strategy of stalling until you strike back is naturally favored.

The negative part is that Midrange decks are sometimes capable of tricky plays that you’d never see vs Aggro, like Doran/Thoctar + Infest/Firespout (very detrimental as it negates every defense for at least a turn), “mass fear” with Profane Command to everyone and alpha strike for the kill, and such. Most of these backbreaking play can be neutered with experience against these decks.

Sometimes however there are just big, bad problems. An Ajani on the opposite side of the table for instance, is a real pain. Even more painful is the dreaded Loxodon Warhammer, which can prove a devastating SB against us for just any Midrange deck (mirror match included). These kinds of permanents are really bad for this deck and, in this case, decks effectively prepared to deal with those specifically (with O-Ring or eventually Needle) have a way better chance of not crumbling to a simple, sad Lox Hammer.

Suggestions such as card choices or....? well with tokens Bitterblossom goblin assault siege-gang commander...will this be torrent tokens or..?
Suggestions such as card choices or....? well with tokens Bitterblossom goblin assault siege-gang commander...will this be torrent tokens or..?

Suggestions means:

"What do you think this thread needs besides a general walkthrough, card choices, matchup analysis, a couple decklists and a list of this deck's strenghts and weaknesses?"
EDIT

oops ;)

you don't need card choices

Well, one thing i'd like to know is how you'd get past over infest, caldera hellion or wrath of god. That's the main problem i've had with token decks (as anyone, i guess).
Suggestions means:

"What do you think this thread needs besides a general walkthrough, card choices, matchup analysis, a couple decklists and a list of this deck's strenghts and weaknesses?"

well that seems to be everything...maybe your opinion on why you find this deck entertaining and would play it over others
More like current decklists with their individual cons and pros listed, individual matchups and explanations of 'weird' choices for the individual decks.

Looking forward to this thread Momo. Possibly check some of the more tokenesque lists in Caldera's C-4 and MrIndigo's Zvi-bla-bla-etc-etc-roll-in-his-grave threads (can never recall the excact names)?
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Well heres my current decklist. I tried Sarkhan but he seemed rather ineffective to me. I think mycoloth is extremely under rated mostly because I havnt seen terror being played in weeks. You get a huge beater (in this deck usually a 10/10+) that can make 7 saprolings a turn, assuming hes a 10/10 which isnt hard for this deck. This followed by a furystroke is auto GG.

Mana

4 Reflecting pool
2 Twilight Mire
4 swamp
2 sulfurous springs
2 llanowar wastes
2 fire-lit thicket
2 mountain
2 graven cairns
4 Karplusan Forest

Beasties

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Marsh Flitter
3 Mycoloth
3 Furystroke Giant
4 Nantuko Husk

Other Junk

4 Bone Splinters
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Bitterblossom
2 Rite of Consumption



So far its been pretty consistant. Sprouting Thrinax is amazing, and hes my favorite Bone Splinters target, which has also been working well it seems. I wish instead of Nantuko Husk I could fill that spot with another token producer...but I cant think of anything.
Massively edited. I'll add things tomorrow. I also forgot of Bone Splinters, which I'll add, and probably something else.

Sorry for being late, guys.
Just a couple of questions.

1.) This thread is for discussion of tokens as a whole, correct? Because last time we had at least three competitive decklists being discussed, interspersed with other people trying to get comments on their FNM decklists, and everyone (including me) was running around selfishly only trying to promote, test and comment on their own build, and it was close to chaos. Maybe, what I meant by the question is, what should be done to prevent this? Should, or can we make individual threads for each attempt, since they're so widely different? Or would that just be bad?

2.) Okay, I guess all my questions are in question #1. Sorry about that.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Also, continuing conversation over from the previous thread:

Because I wanted to make sure it is perfected before I post it. With my yesterday testings, however, I'd say it is.

Will we, or I, be able to see the manabase at any time? I won't be able to make anything more than vague statements based on what I'm guessing until I can test the list, and I can't test the list until I see the manabase.

If it's like some super secret tech secret for States or Uncon, I understand.

First off, Furystoke and Torrent are not similar cards. The only points they have in common are the cost and the fact that that they net 2 more damage per tokens in the final stages of the game, but apart from that, they do completely different things.

Well, that one similarity was why I was lumping them together. They're both mainly blowouts against aggro and mid-range, but not against QnT; Furystoke definitely more-so than Torrent.

I see a great argument for Torrent (the whole Torrent back SCG or Thrinax) so I'm in agreement with you on that. However, Furystoke really needs to get benched in the board.

Essentially I disliked the fact that the original Furystoken (BLOCK) build has two 2cc removals (Maw and Inversion) while I would be playing two 3cc removals (Bello and Ring), so I tried to lower the curve with Halo. But things probably won't stay this way.

While Halo seems useful, Oblivion Ring seems more useful in many more scenarios, from everything to killing an Oona to destroying Bitterblossom to smashing Sarkhan in the mirror.

The point is that we have various cards rewarding you for having tokens - Pact, Giant, Torrent, Husk, Ajani, Vol. Out of all these, however, I chose Torrent and Vol because they actually restock you if you don't have tokens. All the other cards rely on you having tokens instead, and do nothign if you don't; that's why I run as less as possible.

Arguably Sarkhan won't protect himself with extreme adequacy, but I agree that Torrent and Sarkhan (but not Furystoke, which I note is actually omitted from your list) are the best choices.

I know, but I found a bit disturbing to make a token deck leaving the best token cards home. And once you splash B and G, Figure is a lot less affordable.

I don't recommend you run Figure, of course, I just want you to know what you're missing. I definitely am aware of the many merits your deck has that my/Karthage's build is missing, though.

I look forward to testing your list soon.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
No rise of the hobgoblins in the card choices?

It's not the best token fabric in the early game, but if/when you get to a post wrath situation it becomes one of the best token fabrics you can lay down.

Plus the fact that you can endow somewhere in the region of half (obviously varies depending on what colours you run) your creatures with first strike means you generaly have a good day throughout most of the combat phase.

I'd also wonder what people's opinions are on predator dragon....
I appreciate the drawbacks.... terror/unmake and the inherent potential for mass card disadvantage. But also appreciate that (unlike the husk) it has evasion, and haste.
And unlike the furystoke (which is probably the closest analog in terms of mana investment/damage produced), it sticks around and keeps giving turn after turn after turn. Just two tokens dropped into this guy will generate 8 damage a turn until the opponent can come up with a kill spell, and I'm sure two tokens aren't that hard to scrape together, even right after a board sweeper.
You probably couldn't run it as more than a 2-of, but the potential for catching your opponent with their pants down and crushing their life total out of nowhere seems too great for this not to get some exploration.
i like Rhys the Redeemed in these decks.

something im playing around with:
token generators (25):
4x Goblin Assault
4x Creakwood Liege
4x Sprouting Thrinax
2x Dragon Fodder
2x Bitterblossom
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Marsh Flitter
2x Necrogenesis
2x Rhys the Redeemed
1x Sarkhan Vol

spells that help tokens (8):
4x Nantuko Husk
2x Everlasting Torment
2x Grave Pact

other (5):
4x Dragon's Herald (sac tokens to get and play hellkite)
1x Hellkite Overlord

land (22):
4x Savage Lands
3x Mutavault
2x Fire Lit Thicket
2x Graven Cairns
2x Twilight Mire
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Mountain
i like Rhys the Redeemed in these decks

I've actually tested Rhys, since it was in Karthage's original list.

It either get's terrored, or you get mass removal'd the turn after you duplicate the tokens.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
I've actually tested Rhys, since it was in Karthage's original list.

It either get's terrored, or you get mass removal'd the turn after you duplicate the tokens.

I don't mind having rhys terror'd really, since it's about as much as you can hope for, and you can EOT the token doubling, giving you atleast one big swing.

Granted he is of situational use, but he has won me a few games by being a must answer.
I don't mind having rhys terror'd really, since it's about as much as you can hope for, and you can EOT the token doubling, giving you atleast one big swing.

Granted he is of situational use, but he has won me a few games by being a must answer.

Mogg Fanatic is all around better as a 1-drop.
Rhys is really the 6 drop that never was.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Here's a couple cards that I think are worth consideration:

Safehold Elite: While it's not a fabric per-se it does provide 2 creatures for the price of 1 in addition to providing a Torrent-able Profane-able early game critter. In my experience testing it so far, it's better than Dragon Fodder, both for the above mentioned reasons and because it resists sweepers and brings 3 power to the table instead of 2.

Jund Charm: I think this one will make a great sideboard card against Fae, 'Folk(Particularly for it's instant speed in these matches), and other Tribes/Weenie decks as well as graveyard based decks. I know that sweepers are generally counter-intuitive in a Token deck, but let's remember that the Charm is not exclusively a sweeper card, and it's certainly the most easily played charm in RBG. It's third ability canb e pretty handy for getting more use out of your Persist creatures

Thunder-Thrash Elder: This is my personal favorite Devour creature, but I think a general discussion of the Devour mechanic is in order, since it is, obviously, at it's best when played in a token deck.
momo: like the return to the traditional avatar.

good luck with the list, I have given up, because I had such a hard time beating toast and demi. I'm trying to get a decklist up for states, where both will be highly present. I'll check up occasionally, as I loved tolkens, but...

Best of Luck guys.
I'm testing this:



I hate the land-base, but that's probably because I had a strange fear of Magus of the Moon, which is gone now. Also, I've added the Gravepact again to the list. I'm really just testing it right now.

Finally, Torrent of Souls is amazing with Sprouting Thrinax. Sac it to Husk, get the tokens, then play the Torrent targeting the recently sacced Thrinax.

Haven't tested it, but this is what I'm starting with.
I'm testing this:



I hate the land-base, but that's probably because I had a strange fear of Magus of the Moon, which is gone now. Also, I've added the Gravepact again to the list. I'm really just testing it right now.

Finally, Torrent of Souls is amazing with Sprouting Thrinax. Sac it to Husk, get the tokens, then play the Torrent targeting the recently sacced Thrinax.

Haven't tested it, but this is what I'm starting with.

I would recommend against both Gilt-Leaf Ambush and Creakwood Liege. While the liege does make and pump tokens, he's also slow and a prime target for removal. I'd definitely try working in Thoughtseize if you could.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that you want to run either [C]Spitebellows[/C] or Shriekmaw. Spitebellows because he hits more relevant stuff in today's meta (or at least, what the meta seems to be shaping up to be).
Would Skullmulcher be good in a tokens deck? Eat 1-3 tokens and u get a big beater an you get to refill your hand
@Greg:

Show


1.) This thread is for discussion of tokens as a whole, correct? Because last time we had at least three competitive decklists being discussed, interspersed with other people trying to get comments on their FNM decklists, and everyone (including me) was running around selfishly only trying to promote, test and comment on their own build, and it was close to chaos. Maybe, what I meant by the question is, what should be done to prevent this? Should, or can we make individual threads for each attempt, since they're so widely different? Or would that just be bad?

1. In my own experience, the more different ideas you throw into the mix, the better result you get.

2. I don't like this new trend of splitting threads without a strong reason. At all.

3. I don't think promoting your own list is "selfish" if you are putting your best effort in it and being honest about your results. Whoever reads the last thread can see my hard work on the neo-Cavaglieri and get to the conclusion that it doesn't work as well as it used to; this allows the reader to spare days and days of testing, and move on to a next variant. What's selfish with this? It should be encouraged, not prevented. If you and Karthage weren't there posting a radically different list, we would have had much less progress.


Will we, or I, be able to see the manabase at any time? I won't be able to make anything more than vague statements based on what I'm guessing until I can test the list, and I can't test the list until I see the manabase.

If it's like some super secret tech secret for States or Uncon, I understand.

No secret of sort, I just had to work and study in these days, bringing my free time to an historical minimum.

Arguably Sarkhan won't protect himself with extreme adequacy, but I agree that Torrent and Sarkhan (but not Furystoke, which I note is actually omitted from your list) are the best choices.

In most scenarios you have the tokens to protect Sarkhan. If you don't, it's probably because of a mass sweeper that just got played, in which case there's no one out there to attack Sarkhan. And that's where he shines - they Wrath, Sarkhan dragonstorms the field, they'd better have another Wrath.

The only truly bad scenario is when they cast a sweeper and swing immediately after (like, Firespout killing anyone but their Doran/Thoctar) but luckily it doesn't happen often. Against decks pulling this play often, anyway, you board out Sarkhan.

I don't recommend you run Figure, of course, I just want you to know what you're missing. I definitely am aware of the many merits your deck has that my/Karthage's build is missing, though.

I look forward to testing your list soon.

Show

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
3 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
2 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
2 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
4 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
4 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [MOR] Spitebellows

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
3 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
3 [SHM] Torrent of Souls

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Runed Halo ------------------> swap with Blossom against R-Aggro
SB: 3 [ALA] Knight-Captain of Eos----------> swap with Sarkhan vs R-Aggro
SB: 4 [LRW] Shriekmaw---------------------> thinking of something better than Maw, but he still helps
SB: 4 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge------------> anti-control measure. Better against mass removals than Seize and Burrenton combined, as their removals cease to matter.



momo: like the return to the traditional avatar.

good luck with the list, I have given up, because I had such a hard time beating toast and demi. I'm trying to get a decklist up for states, where both will be highly present. I'll check up occasionally, as I loved tolkens, but...

Best of Luck guys.

I'm fairly certain that lists with a fair game vs Toast and Demi are around the corner.

--------------------------------------------------------------


Also, I'm soon updating with matchups, cards sorted by curve, and adding to the card options the following:

Bone Splinters, Rhys The Redeemed, Rise of The Hobgoblins, Caldera Hellion and Primal Command.
Show

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
3 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
2 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
2 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
4 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
4 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [MOR] Spitebellows

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
3 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
3 [SHM] Torrent of Souls

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Runed Halo ------------------> swap with Blossom against R-Aggro
SB: 3 [ALA] Knight-Captain of Eos----------> swap with Sarkhan vs R-Aggro
SB: 4 [LRW] Shriekmaw---------------------> thinking of something better than Maw, but he still helps
SB: 4 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge------------> anti-control measure. Better against mass removals than Seize and Burrenton combined, as their removals cease to matter.



I'm fairly certain that lists with a fair game vs Toast and Demi are around the corner.

--------------------------------------------------------------


Also, I'm soon updating with matchups, cards sorted by curve, and adding to the card options the following:

Bone Splinters, Rhys The Redeemed, Rise of The Hobgoblins, Caldera Hellion and Primal Command.

Very interesting list. No Dragon Fodder or Mogg Fanatic?

Greg's list has a very solid game against QnT. I'm just not liking it's game vs Demi right now, although it has 11 cards to help in that match-up in the side. Finks, O-ring, Forge-tender. O-ring doesn't help quite as much as Knight-Captain though, I suppose.

I'll try testing your list and compare it to Greg's/Karthage's.
So here's my R/B/g token deck

// Lands
2 Graven Cairns
6 Swamp
2 Auntie's Hovel
1 Springjack Pasture
2 Forest
4 Mountain
2 Vivid Crag
2 Vivid Marsh
3 Savage land

// Creatures
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Nantuko Husk
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Marsh Flitter
2 Furystoke Giant
2 Murderous Redcap

// Spells
2 Torrent of Souls
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Nameless Inversion
3 Goblin Assault
2 Sarkhan Vol

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Eyeblights ending
SB: 4 Naturalize
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Jund Charm

So the main deck hasn't changed much from my last post. I've modified the mana base to play vivids to smooth it out. I don't run pools since I only run 3 colors and the third's a splash. Three bitterblossoms and three assaults are there because esper charm is in a lot of decks and having less means you draw them less against them and when you have them, you can usually pump out a few tokens before they kill them. Also having fewer means that they might decide to hold the charm and wait for the enchantment rather than use it for another reason. Eyeblights is for artifact creatures and creatures to big for inversion. It deals with so much. Demigods, cloudthreshers, everything but colossus. Jund charm is for the mirror. I found that with this deck creature advantage is not how you win. Rather an effective recovery is how you win the token mirror or the aggro mirror. Since you make tons of small creatures each turn, the ability to wipe their board at instant and reestablish a dominant position next turn is key to winning a match. Critique is helpful.
@Momo's decklist: I find the manabase messed me up a lot. Either I didn't draw into the lands I needed at a specific point, the painlands ended up hurting me too much, or I was missing 1 color to play a multi-colored spell. Maybe I was just getting bad luck, but I kept getting the wrong color.

It also seemed a little slower than the RW list. In the mirror match-up (against the RW list) the RW list seems to have the advantage due to it's SB of Wrath of God and it's consistency of getting off Spectral Procession. Usually I couldn't get it off until turn 4 or 5, which by then, he had a better board position or could just reset the board. Every time I drew and had Sarkhan I wished he was Ajani. Ajani benefits more long-term and with Sarkhan you really don't get to keep your guys untapped to defend him. If you do he sits there useless.

Maybe I was just playing the deck wrong, but as of right now I prefer the RW list.
@Momo's decklist: I find the manabase messed me up a lot. Either I didn't draw into the lands I needed at a specific point, the painlands ended up hurting me too much, or I was missing 1 color to play a multi-colored spell. Maybe I was just getting bad luck, but I kept getting the wrong color.

It also seemed a little slower than the RW list. In the mirror match-up (against the RW list) the RW list seems to have the advantage due to it's SB of Wrath of God and it's consistency of getting off Spectral Procession. Usually I couldn't get it off until turn 4 or 5, which by then, he had a better board position or could just reset the board. Every time I drew and had Sarkhan I wished he was Ajani. Ajani benefits more long-term and with Sarkhan you really don't get to keep your guys untapped to defend him. If you do he sits there useless.

Maybe I was just playing the deck wrong, but as of right now I prefer the RW list.

I expected criticism on the manabase, but honestly I can't see any reason for it after testing.

Personally I had a problem in casting thrinax/vol in one game out of something like 20, which is an extremely low percentage. All lands can trigger Figure and all lands can play Demigod. Only five lands cannot play Procession (and only igf you don't get a filter-land). Every color requirement of the Baxter equation is fulfilled with an overabundance of +1 Black, +1 Green, +5 White, +6 Red (setting Procession's priority to "High").

In short, you should theorically have 0 problems with the manabase and I'm in fact not having any.

I am nonetheless settling White as the main color because I want to run Cloudgoat Ranger. This will means I will change the manabase into something more procession-friendly.

If anything, I agree that Vol is leaving me a bit cold, as it seems good at winning in instances where I'd win anyway. but I'd still keep a G splash for thrinax, which is proving a key card in all games. Still I think it's surprising to hear people complain about Vol not leaving blockers to protect him, as nothing forces you to attack with ALL the hasted guys. And despite what you seem to think, Vol is useful even if it does nothing but amassing loyalty counters, as dragonstorming after a Wrath is often a winning play.

Speaking specifically of the mirror match, however, Karthage's list is favored as it plays two crucial cards (Ajani and Wrath) and gets its tokens into gear faster. But my list is advantaged vs Control as it plays Blossom, Thrinax and Torrent. Besides, should the mirror occur too often, you'd have Ajani as a SB choice.

EDIT: how in the damn world has my matchup annalysis vanished? I've spent an hour writing that!
I've been playtesting this list on MWS, and it is seriously mopping the floor against everything I've faced. It runs a heavy amount of blue for reasons I will explain.

Decklist

// Lands
4 [ALA] Crumbling Necropolis
4 [FUT] Graven Cairns
4 [TE] Reflecting Pool
4 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
4 [5E] Underground River
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
1 [LRW] Vivid Marsh

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 [ALA] Agony Warp
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LRW] Broken Ambitions
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [ALA] Dragon Fodder
4 [ALA] Grixis Charm
2 [EVE] Puncture Blast
2 [SHM] Torrent of Souls


In the oppenning post, it said that Grixis Charm was the only real reason to go with blue. I very much disagree. I believe that blue is a powerhouse and can easily be incorporated into a tokens build. Grixis Charm is indeed amazing in this deck. Wincon, tempo, and removal. Enough said.

Cryptic Command is Cryptic Command. While providing protection against wrath spells, handling large threats, stalling your opponent, and netting you CA, Cryptic is also capable of allowing an alpha-strike by tapping all of their creatures. 1 Wake Thrasher and a few tokens and you've got yourself a game in the bag. It's amazing. But we already knew that.

Wake Thrasher consistently swings for around 7-10 in this deck. It is a card that MUST be handled. It can be protected by counterspells, and provides early pressure, and late game huge swings. Yes it's relatively easy to kill, but this can be a back breaker.

Broken Ambitions is a decent counterspell. A skilled player knows how to use it, and it again helps protect your gameplan.

Agony Warp can allow many 2for1's in this deck with so many tokens.

Everything else functions as a normal tokens deck, although now its game plan is much harder to disrupt.

Thoughts?
Thoughts?

I like the list a lot, especially considering how it defies our previous assumptions on the role of Blue in a Tokens deck. I disagree with some aspects of it, namely the inclusion of Torrent and Ambitions.

Still, it's interesting and, most importantly, innovative in comparison to the other builds. I am considering putting it in the OP. Mind giving it a name?

@krazykirby:

Try this one:

Show

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
3 [10E] Caves of Koilos
3 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
2 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [9E] Karplusan Forest

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [ALA] Sprouting Thrinax
3 [LRW] Marsh Flitter
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
2 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
3 [SHM] Torrent of Souls

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 4 [SHM] Furystoke Giant
SB: 4 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge

Consider this:

1. less Green mana required, more Green mana to pay.

2. all sources but 1 can cast Spectral Procession.

3. all sources can cast/trigger Figure, Finks, and Demigod.


Also, given how many of you seem dubious about the possibility of making a quadricolor list, I will make a RWB and a RBG one tomorrow. I added Hunting Triad to the card choices, but it seems that my extensive matchup review was erased during yesterday's update. Therefore, I will re-write it tomorrow.
I'll try that list out, but now that I think about, maybe I was just getting annoyed at always having to take 1 to play stuff. I always ended up getting the wrong filter lands sometimes which hurt.

Maybe I was just overexaggerating by accident.

Do you think your list has the better match-ups with most of the field?
I missed a day, so lots of stuffs going about here.

@Momo
1. In my own experience, the more different ideas you throw into the mix, the better result you get.

2. I don't like this new trend of splitting threads without a strong reason. At all.

This is fine, but I just don't want to see anybody get ignored. There are a lot of ideas being thrown around right now, ranging from FNM to States prep.

In most scenarios you have the tokens to protect Sarkhan. If you don't, it's probably because of a mass sweeper that just got played, in which case there's no one out there to attack Sarkhan. And that's where he shines - they Wrath, Sarkhan dragonstorms the field, they'd better have another Wrath.

I would say this is a standard definition for a good token card now, it has to be able to follow up a wrath. I like Sarkhan in Tokens, provided you run the right cards to combo with him.

// Lands
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool
4 [LRW] Vivid Crag
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [10E] Sulfurous Springs
3 [LRW] Vivid Meadow
2 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
2 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket

I tested your decklist with this manabase (not the new one you posted, I'll get on that). I mostly test with krazykirby, so my thoughts are what he stated. The manabase seems like it will slow you down a bit, but that's more or less unavoidable.

With the new manabase, the deck looks better at a glance.

I am nonetheless settling White as the main color because I want to run Cloudgoat Ranger. This will means I will change the manabase into something more procession-friendly.

I endorse this idea. I currently believe white is the current color of tokens.

If anything, I agree that Vol is leaving me a bit cold, as it seems good at winning in instances where I'd win anyway.

Have you considered testing with Ajani? The stacking counters feel great, and the vigilance is something nasty. It's also a gain 10+ life spell if used the other way.

Also, lastly: I agree with you on Karthage being the OP of the RW deck and the originator of the theory, but I would appreciate if you put my list into the OP as well. The inclusion of cards such as Windbrisk Heights, Mogg Fanatic and Lark, as well as Wrath of God in the sideboard are all changes that greatly increase the chance and viability of the deck throughout the metagame.

Current Version of RW-Karthage-Greg Tokens
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [EVE] Rugged Prairie
4 [10E] Battlefield Forge
4 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights
6 [10E] Plains (3)
3 [10E] Mountain (1)
4 [SHM] Reflecting Pool

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
2 [MOR] Reveillark
3 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
1 [LRW] Cloudgoat Ranger

// Spells
4 [ALA] Dragon Fodder
4 [SHM] Spectral Procession
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
4 [LRW] Lash Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Reveillark
SB: 4 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo


By the way, I've tested some additional matchups and found that Kithkin is greatly increased post-board with Wrath, Demigod Red is iffy, Elves is varying depending on your start speed and hand, and QnT is beaten pretty easily. Against your version, this deck has more speed (mainly Dragon Fodder over Bitterblossom) -- and like you said, plays key cards, but it has issues with opposing Torrent of Souls.

I also found Puppeteer Clique to be a problem card for this deck.


@Cosmia: I like the idea, but I feel the decklist still needs some improvement. I think you'll want to test the matchup with Quick 'n Toast. Wake Thrasher seems out of place. I like the Crytic Command alpha strike and also countering a Wrath.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
I also found Puppeteer Clique to be a problem card for this deck.

That was good times. Stealing your SGC twice :D

Good thing not many decks play Puppeteer Clique though.
Hey all, glad to see so much discussion going on about tokens. I played a tournament last night, going 2-2, but I had the pleasure of facing a W based Kithkin/Token deck that closely resembled the W based token decks that have been getting so much discussion here lately. My opponent ran Figure, Spectral, and Cloudgoat, but had a more Kithkin-esque base, with Stalwart, Meadowgrain, Forge-Tender, and Cenn, and splashed blue, mostly to Negate sweepers. I went 2-1, but actually went 3-1 since the pairings had to be re-done after our first game, thus re-setting our match. Here's the list I played:



As far as the MU analysis, my deck had 3 things going for it that seemed to give me the edge over white: These were Grave Pact, Nantuko Husk, and Torrent of Souls. Pact made all my trades far more favorable, Husk had no trouble out-sizing his creatures, and Torrent greatly multiplied my options when it came to building my board. There were also several games where I used Sarkhan to Threaten his Figure and smack him around with it (lots of fun, yes). The big trouble card for me was Spectral Procession, as his flyers gave him an edge when determining combat blocks etc.

Torrent has proven an all-star, and I will be dropping Furystoke and Siege-Gang for an all-Torrent 5cc slot. It's ability to configure the board in exactly the way you want it to win has been winning me game after game. It also plays well after Sarkhan lands, reanimating a Marsh Flitter or other token maker, and then Sarkhan hasting/pumping everything again.

If you'll notice, I dropped Dragon Fodder altogether, in favor of Safehold Elite. I suggest everyone test this change, whether running Green or White. Safehold makes better trades, and brings more to the table, surviving wraths, 'spouts, and even being a superior attacker. It can also be Torrented in a pinch, and can block Oversoul, something the B/R Tokens always had trouble with. Granted, Fodder is better with Sarkhan, or any form of mass pump, but by itself Safehold is superior.

I'm also running a few Shriekmaw, who's ability to kill FoD is becoming ever-more relevant. He is, of course, an excellent Torrent target.
If you'll notice, I dropped Dragon Fodder altogether, in favor of Safehold Elite. I suggest everyone test this change, whether running Green or White. Safehold makes better trades, and brings more to the table, surviving wraths, 'spouts, and even being a superior attacker. It can also be Torrented in a pinch, and can block Oversoul, something the B/R Tokens always had trouble with. Granted, Fodder is better with Sarkhan, or any form of mass pump, but by itself Safehold is superior.

I'd make the switch, but my three main stickly points are:
1.) Dragon Fodder has to be blocked twice.
2.) Dragon Fodder gets 2 Ajani Tokens.
3.) Safehold Elite can't be sac'd to SGC.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.
Still, it's interesting and, most importantly, innovative in comparison to the other builds. I am considering putting it in the OP. Mind giving it a name?

Let's call it "UBeR Tokens" or something for now.

I'm very interested in the criticisms thus far.
@momo

I am interested in why you believe torrent and ambitions don't have a place. Ambitions is a potent counterspell in this deck, especially against aggro. This deck plays similar to faeries in that it drops bitterblossom and then reacts, with the occasional drop of a commander or flitter that seriously clog the board up, so counterspells are key. Would you suggest a different counterspell? or a different spell altogether?

My own personal criticism of Torrent of Souls is that there are only a few creatures to reanimate with it. I must say though, when it works it really works. Torrenting a commander, as we all know, is just amazing. For me, that opportunity is hard to ignore. Perhaps we may end up adding additional creatures of some sort (shriekmaw or Mulldrifter?) that would aid in this issue. Another criticism I have for it is the sorcery speed and large casting cost. This somewhat runs counter (no pun intended) to the reactive playstyle that characterizes the majority of the deck. But when it is capable of winning games, I support its inclusion.


@Greg

Wake Thrasher, I agree, seems a bit off. He would definitely be sided out against faster decks like kithkin. I would offer Firespout in its place. It doesn't hit the majority of our tokens, and we can sit on our token generators until we wipe their creatures, and then get cracking.

Still though, Wake thrasher swinging for 7-10 is pretty great. Though, it may be a win-more card. I'll playtest further.
I'd make the switch, but my three main stickly points are:
1.) Dragon Fodder has to be blocked twice.
2.) Dragon Fodder gets 2 Ajani Tokens.
3.) Safehold Elite can't be sac'd to SGC.

1.) Safehold Elite must similarly be blocked twice AND has a better chance of trading with whatever blocks it.
2.) This is a condition in which Dragon Fodder is improved. Not the same as being better by itself. I still think Safehold + Ajani is better than DF + Ajani. I'll get to why down below.
3.) Again, a condition, and a tough one to meet at that- It would be nice if we could sac everything to SGC. As far as Husk is concerned, Safehold and 'Fodder are the same.

I probably sound like a broken record by now, but here are MY stickly points:

1.) Safehold is a 2/2 and a 1/1 while DF is a 1/1 and a 1/1.
2.) Safehold trades and then returns against any x/2 while DF is just gone(think Kitchen Finks).
3.) Safehold can repeatedly swing into a Bitterblossom and survive. DF swings twice and is gone.
4.) Safehold, as a GW creature, gets around many of the protections that exist in the format(Forge-tender and Oversoul).
5.) Safehold puts 3 power and 3 toughness on the table, DF puts 2 power and 2 toughness.
6.) Safehold returns to play for more damage after a 'Spout/Wrath, DF is just dead.
7.) As far as Ajani is concerned, I'm pretty sure Safehold is the better creature, as you'll repeatedly get to use it's persist, leaving you with a creature that basically doesn't leave play.
8.) Safehold is a Torrent target, DF is not.

If you're still unconvinced, I urge you to try it and see for yourself.
I can not tell you how many times the UBeR build has countered their threat+ tapped all their creatures via Command, and then torrented or charmed into an alpha strike unblocked the next turn.

After much deliberation, I have taken out the Wake Thrasher. He is definately a win-more card. He also doesn't help at all against the tough matches I've faced so far (kithkin. boy have I found them to be tough against this kind of deck). In its stead, I have put in (believe it or not) shriekmaw. Early game he handles many annoying threats, and provides a Torrent target if you evoke him. Hard-casted, he's pure CA. He is extremely effective against kithkin and elves. Torrenting him is wonderful, as you kill their creature, 5 swinging evasive damage in addition to all the token pump.

I may take some Dragon Fodder out for more puncture blast or something. The deck is becoming EXTREMELY control oriented.

I like Agony Warping a Demigod and then chumping with a BB token, or Grixis charming the stupid demigod. I also like agony warping a FoD in response to its pump.
Here's a list I've been trying out:

4x Forest
1x Sulfurous Springs
1x Auntie's Hovel
4x Savage Lands
4x Reflecting Pool
1x Llanowar Wastes
3x Karplusan Forest
3x Fire-Lit Thicket
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace

4x Seige-Gang Commander
4x Chameleon Colossus
3x Broodmate Dragon
4x Sprouting Thrinax
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wren's Run Vanquisher

4x Sarkhan Vol
2x Profane Command
2x Firespout

SB:
3x Spitebellows
1x Profane Command
3x Thoughtseize
2x Loxodon Warhammer
2x Firespout
4x Infest
Photobucket Team GFG - Glux's Fine Gents
What are thoughts on Mirror Entity? I can see a lot of variants having loads of fun with him.
@Greg: I will indeed update the OP. But not today as I hoped as I have fewer time than expected.

Do you think your list has the better match-ups with most of the field?

I'm just fascinated by the list having access to White's anti-aggro tools and BG anti control stuff. Perhaps you cannot play both and I'm just being greedy, but I'm willing to invest into this concept. In the meanwhile, here you get the two tricolors list:

Jund Tokens

4 Pool
4 Savage
4 Springs
4 Karplusan
4 Cairns
2 Fire-Lit
2 Mountains
1 Swamp

4 Figure
4 Thrinax
4 Flitter
4 S-G-C
4 Bello
2 Broodmate

3 Fodder
4 Blossom
3 Sarkhan
3 Torrent


"Boros" Tokens

4 Pool
4 V-Meadow
4 Forge
4 Caves
3 Prairie
2 Heath
2 V-Crag
2 Plains

4 Figure
4 Finks
4 Flitter
4 S-G-C
2 Cloudgoat

2 Fodder
4 Blossom
4 O-Ring
4 Procession
3 Torrent


...in the end, I think it doesn't matter what list you play, as long as you follow the prime rule of Karthage's list: your opponent must be forced to Wrath each turn, only to meet another army the following turn. I won't get into details of why my previous attempts were unsuccessful, I'll only say that this is the direction to take.

While we're at it, a comparison: Seize vs Demi/Figure.

All these spells have essentially the very same purpose, wasting an answer from you opponent. There are some difference, though. Seize costs little and automatically hits the answer faster than Figure/Demi, making it an important card vs Tempo decks such as Fae. But seize does not, in any circumstance, swing to kill the opponent, becoming dead when the opponent DID effectively exhaust the answers. Thus, packing "real" threats (Demi, Figure) is better than packing an "anti-answer" vs Control. That's why I currently advice running threats (and perhaps Seize in the SB).
I've been dissatisfied lately with the performance of Thoughtseize. I find myself wishing instead that it was an early game threat.
I plan on getting into this deck for my next project.

A few things I noticed after reading this and the other B/R or B/R/x tokens threads.

The hardest matchups are Qnt/Lark variants. I feel these are going to comprise about 75% of the meta in the coming months. The main reason these match ups are hard is mass removal. There is no easy way to disable these decks with the loss of The 5 dollar card that destroys $200 mana bases. Obviously we have no idea what the new meta will bring for DTBs but I will bet, they wont be 1-2 colors.

Many people are designing their decks to survive or even force the opponent to use mass removal every turn or die.

If you look on the Qnt/Revilark threads, their hardest match ups are the mirror.

Taking these observations into account, I will say I like the idea of a 3 color token deck that almost relies on mass removal be played in order to win.

I believe it was Momo's creation on the previous thread that managed this the best. Using Marsh Flitter, Siege-gang commander, and Sprouting Thrinax in conjunction with Torrent of Souls to come back furiously after mass removal. I also agree with early game use of Safehold elite to hold down the board, and for abuse out of the GY later in desperation. Another problem that arises is of course countermagic stopping your torrent plans dead.

I will make one suggestion for the SB or main deck that also cripples Qnt/lark control decks. Mind Shatter. I know you will hate on this card. I play it in the SB of my B/u Mannequin and it absolutely crushes those decks. They pretty much always have a full hand of control. Perhaps a discard suite is necessary to combat these decks. Cashsieze, mind shatter and blightning come to mind.

Thats it for now. I just have to get my hands on 2 more BB and Reflecting pools and I will be able to build this deck myself.
@Momo's RWB List: I've thought for awhile about whether it's worth it to mess with the manabase a bit in order to swap out Dragon Fodder for Bitterblossom and Lark for Torrent. I'm interested in your thoughts about whether it's worth "dirtying" the manabase for those cards. What exactly does it improve?

I like Torrent a lot (Bitterblossom not as much), but I don't really enjoy losing Windbrisk Heights. I'm not sold that the B splash is accomplishing something the RW wasn't already doing.

I'm personally split.

(By the way, I'm not so crazy over the lack of Ajani or Elspeth in the list.)

@Straumgald: Karthage's theory of playing more threats than QnT can "handle" is proving to be very effective. For my current version of Karthage's RW Tokens build, QnT is a favourable matchup that we can win with close to 60-40 or 70-30 50-50 to 60-40 certainty, depending on the list and the skill of the player.
Umm, so I don't really frequent these forums any more, but I do blog for my website Greatplay.net.