Big Mana

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What exactly is Big Mana? Playing this deck involves three basic steps: accelerate into alot of mana, play your large but efficient creatures, and overwhelm your opponent with superior power. There are generally two different styles of Big Mana, one that plays green and red, and another than plays green and white. Both decks play mana acceleration like Into the North, Wall of Roots, and Search for Tomorrow to ensure you have a lot of mana available very quickly. The red version then finishes the game with creatures like Cloudthresher and Siege-Gang Commander, while the white version usually uses Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Oversoul of Dusk. Not sure which version is best for you? You've come to the right place.

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Card Choices



Creatures

Wall of Roots
This guy doubles as mana acceleration and a wall to stop any early creatures your opponent plays. He's invaluable in any Big Mana deck.

Tarmogoyf
Usually he will be a 3/4 or 4/5 at the absolute smallest for the low, low cost of 2 mana. Goyf is a great early play to stall aggro decks and a great mid to late game play because very few creatures can take down a 5/6 Goyf crashing into the red zone.

Cloudthresher
He's an undercosted fatty (the is usually not a problem to get) that can be played at instant speed that also happens to wipe the board clear of all those pesky faeries. A great choice for any version of Big Mana.

Siege-Gang Commander
An absolute staple of R/G lists. SCG comes down for 5 mana and creates an army of chump blockers that can also be sacrificed as pseudo-shocks. Plus, a Siege-Gang with the overrun ability of Garruk Wildspeaker will end games quickly.

Chameleon Colossus
Dominating against decks with black removal. He can single-handedly win the game against Rogues or Mono Black Control.

Quagnoth
"Big Q", as he's commonly refered to on these forums, has fallen out of favor with the other options available. He is a big body with Split Second and Shroud, but for 6 mana, there are better options. He might find a spot in budget lists, but otherwise you are better off keeping him in the sideboard or playing something else.

Oversoul of Dusk

The Oversoul is the workhorse of G/W lists. He's quite a beatstick if I've ever seen one. A nice 5/5 body with immunity to Terror, Sower of Temptation, and virtually any other pot removal you can name. Plus, he just makes Red Deck Wins cry.

Kitchen Finks

Many G/W lists play maindeck Finks. He can single handedly stall aggro, especially Red Deck Wins, until you have the mana to cast your big finishers.

Akroma, Angel of Wrath
You really can't ask for more in a creature than what Akroma gives you. Her 8cc is usually not a problem for Big Mana, and once she hits the table, your opponent has to find some way to deal with her, or lose within 2 turns at the most. Most people only play one copy of Akroma to search for with a Primal Command once you have the 8 mana to cast her.

Crovax, Ascendant Hero
In the current metagame, Crovax have developed one main purpose: kill faeries. If you can resolve Crovax against a faeries player, he essentially wraths their entire board and changes Bitterblossom to read "At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life." Like Akroma, G/W lists usually only play one copy of Crovax so you can search for him with Primal Command.

Aeon Chronicler

Some players like to splash blue in G/W for Chronicler. He doubles as a card drawing machine and another beatstick once he comes into play. The blue splash is fine in G/W decks, but not recommended in R/G.

Spells

Into the North
Your main mana accelerating spell. It searches out snow duals like Highland Weald and Arctic Flats and can also grab your snow utility lands like Mouth of Ronom and Scrying Sheets.

Search For Tomorrow
Another solid mana acceleration spell, especially in G/W lists that do not run snow lands.

Harmonize
Absolutely great card draw. Harmonize keeps the threats flowing, and I highly recommend 4 in any Big Mana deck.

Primal Command
Very powerful and very versatile. Gaining 7 life + searching for a big creature usually puts the game away against aggro decks. Bouncing a land can hurt control's tempo and shuffling a Reveillark player's graveyard can really slow them down.

Garruk Wildspeaker
Another versatile and powerful choice for Big Mana. Garruk can help you ramp into more mana, create more threats in the form of 3/3 tokens, or end a game with his Overrun ability.

Firespout
Very effective board sweeper. Firespout does not have the instant speed that Sulfurous Blast provides, but it costs less, only requires one red mana (or none if you are using it against faeries), and doesn't deal any damage to you.

Sulfurous Blast
Many prefer Blast over Firespout since its instant speed is more effective against faeries. The double red mana can sometimes make it a little slow against very fast aggro, but the instant speed often makes up for that.

Skred
A staple for every R/G list. Skred kills just about any creature for one red mana. Single best creature destruction spell available.

Incinerate
Another solid choice for creature destruction, especially in the early game. Many people are now cutting Incinerate in order to add more Sulfurous Blasts or Firespouts to their deck.

Wrath of God
Great in every G/W build. It deals with, well, everything.

Oblivion Ring
Pseudo-Vindicate for G/W builds. Very solid removal choice.

Condemn
Another good choice for removal in G/W. It deals with any creature, regardless of size, for just one white mana. The lifegain isn't an issue when you are playing Big Mana.

Glittering Wish
Some G/W decks like to use a wish sideboard. The wish can search out a number of good targets like Firespout, Vexing Shusher, Oversoul of Dusk, and more.

Void
Some R/G lists splash black for Void. It deals with a number of problems, but it is most devastating when you name 5 against Reveillark decks.

Land

Highland Weald / Arctic Flats / Tresserhorn Sinks / Boreal Shelf
The snow duals can be fetched with Into the North and are great for fixing your mana and allow you to splash black in R/G builds or splash blue in G/W builds.

Mouth of Ronom
A land that doubles as removal is always excellent. Most people run 2 copies since it can be searched for with Into the North.

Scrying Sheets
Another solid choice for snow builds. Again, it can be searched for with Into the North.

Treetop Village
Very good man-land for any version of Big Mana.

Brushland
Good mana fixing for G/W lists.

Horizon Canopy
Mana fixing for G/W lists that is not dead in the late game since it can also be sacrificed for a cantrip.

Wooded Bastion
More solid mana fixing for G/W.

Urza's Factory
Alternate win-condition to use all your mana on in the late game.

Sideboard

Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Excellent in the mirror match or against other mana intensive decks. A turn 3 Acid-Moss can put you so far ahead in the mirror that it makes it very, very hard for your opponent to recover.

Krosan Grip

Staple artifact/enchantment destruction spell that deals with annoying cards like Bitterblossom, Seismic Assault, Mana Barbs, Loxodon Warhammer, and more. The Split Second is very relevant against faeries since they can't counter it, and against Swans Combo because you can destroy their Seismic Assault without giving them the chance to respond by comboing off.

Extirpate
Some R/G lists splash black for Extirpate to deal with Reveillark and other combo decks that utilize the graveyard.

Vexing Shusher
Not greatly tested, but could be good against Faeries. It also can be searched for out of the sideboard with Glittering Wish.

Squall Line
Complements Cloudthresher as a great sweeper against Faeries.

Akroma, Angel of Fury
A solid beatstick against U/W control, specifically Reveillark decks. Wrath of God is their only way to deal with her.

Wispmare
Great enchantment destruction in G/W. He's specifically good for getting rid of Bitterblossom for one mana.

Stonecloaker
The Extirpate for G/W builds. He can be used over and over again to disrupt graveyard based decks.

Wheel of Sun and Moon
More graveyard hate for G/W, and it can be used in a wish board.

Tormod's Crypt

Yet another choice for graveyard hate in any version of Big Mana.


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Decklists






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Matchups



G/R/x Matchups
Big Mana Mirror
Matchup Overview:

This is an interesting match because it relies on each pilots ability to most effectively use their creatures. Both players will have removal, so the player who is able to stick the most creatures to the board will likely be the victor. Make sure you use your Sulfurous Blasts and Cloudthreshers to deal damage directly to Garruk, rather than wasting valuable Siege-Gang Commander tokens or trying to force damage through.

Save your Skreds for Cloudthreshers and Tarmogoyf. Garruk is a HUGE threat in this match as he can continuously pump out tokens and make the SGC's tokens a massive pain to deal with.

Sideboard Advice:

Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is going to be your MVP here. This matchup is the reason why you sideboard them. The first player to resolve an Acid Moss will gain a huge tempo advantage. If you have any creatures in the SB, take out Firespout/Sulfurous Blast for them because this matchup is all about getting more big threats than your opponent.

Matchup Win Percentage: 50-50

Faeries
Matchup Overview:

This matchup is going to be the most frustrating that you will have to deal with. Being on the play will greatly increase your chances of winning in the matchup since you need to start applying pressure early. In game one, Rune Snag is usually the only counterspell that you have to worry about on the first 3-4 turns. Try to get some threats to stick before their Cryptic Commands and Spellstutter Sprites come online. If you manage to resolve a big threat, don't let your guard down because the Faerie player also has Terror to deal with your creatures. Treetop Village is a key player in this matchup since it is uncounterable and can push trample damage over chump blocking tokens.

The key to this matchup is playing a threat that they have to counter and then following it with another threat when they are tapped out. This is especially effective with Cloudthresher or Sulfurous Blast which you can play at the end of your opponent's turn. You can also use these instant speed sweepers in response to a Mistbind Clique (make sure the play them with the Champion trigger on the stack). If you fall behind early, don't be afraid to use a sweeper to just clear away some Bitterblossom tokens. You are in a bad situation here and honestly are likely facing a loss, but it's important not to let things get ridiculous because a single Scion of Oona will blow you out in just one or two swings. Sometimes it's tricky to know when to use a sweeper, but it just takes practice.

Make sure that you save your Mouth of Ronom and Skred for the Cliques, unless you need to get rid of a Scion of Oona. Both are very, very annoying for us to deal with.

Garruk Wildspeaker is also a decent threat in this matchup, especially if you can get him down on turn 3. Overall, you want to make them run out of counters by alternating your control cards and your creature threats to keep the pressure on.

Sideboard Advice:

You are going to want to be as aggressive as possible while having sweepers available once your threats are on the table. If you have something like Kitchen Finks or Chameleon Colossus in the SB, put them in. Primal Command is usually sided out against faeries, and a couple copies of Harmonize can be taken out as well for your more active threats. Garruk Wildspeaker is not nearly as effective when you are not playing first, so side them out if you are on the draw. Krosan Grip is also a call you're going to have to make depending on your deck makeup; if you have room, put them in to deal with Bitterblossoms.

Matchup Win Percentage: 30-70 in Faeries favor
(Stays about the same post-board. This can also vary greatly depending on the skill level of your opponent)

Matchup reports courtesy of Sir WoGalot and Dyron.

More matchup reports currently being added.

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Special Thanks to:

Hodoku for the colored dividers.
-Stu for the banner.
OldHat for creating the first two Big Mana threads (which can be found here and here).
Ah, new thread. Jolly good.
Think this'll get back in the Dtb?
Think this'll get back in the Dtb?

When did it leave? This is just a new thread since the last one reached 1000 posts.
What about this?
[/deck]

I know Akroma and Disaster are not used anymore, but in my meta I've some MUC & U/W control, so I must get rid of them; and there are lots of RDW & RDL, so I turned Goyfs into Finks.

P.S. use Offalsnout instead of Extirpate if you're on budget.
Requesting switch to DtB right now.
G/R Matches Writeup:

Show
-DTB-
Big Mana-
This is an interesting match because it relies on each pilots ability to most effectively use their creatures, as their is alot of control on both sides, but very little creatures. Make sure you use your Sulfurous Blasts and Cloudthresher to deal damage directly to Garruk, rather than wasting valuable Siege-Gang Commander tokens or trying to force damage through.

Save your Skreds for Cloudthreshers and Tarmogoyf. Garruk is a HUGE threat in this match as he can make the SGC's tokens a massive pain to deal with.

Sideboard Advice- If you have any creatures in the SB, take out Firespout for them and if you run black, side in Extirpate. Play it against one of their creature threats like Cloudthresher and its crippling.

Matchup win percentage: 50-50

Fae-
This matchup is the one we are going to have to deal with alot and it will be frustrating. The key to this matchup is playing a threat that they are going to counter with a second threat to play right afteward to force them through. Another way to play this match is to Sulfurous Blast when they play a Clique (make sure the Champion effect is on the stack!) or to play it at the end of their turn with enough creatures on the feild where it is a sufficient threat to counter. This taps their mana so that you may play a threat on your turn. Its tricky to guess when to S. Blast, but it just takes practice.

Make sure that you save your Mouth of Ronom for the Cliques, but your going to want to watch out for the "I tap all my mana and sac a land to only have you flash in a Scion of Oona" play. Treat the situation like you would an Sulfurous Blast.

Garruk is also a decent threat in this MU, they have to attack it otherwise you produce and army of bigger threats than them or it allows us to open up more mana to play more threats per turn or pay for a Rune Snag. Overall, you want to make them run out of counters by alternating your control cards and your creature threats to keep the pressure on.

Sideboard Advice: If you have something like Kitchen Finks (or Chameleon Colossus like I do) in the SB, put them in. It allows you to stave off the BB token hits and puts some pressure on the Fae player to use some of his resources to defend. You have to switch to a more aggroish-control stance to deal with them. Krosan Grip is also a call your going to have to make depending on your deck makeup; if you have room, put them in.

Matchup Win percentage: 30-70 (Stays about the same post-board. This depends heavily on the Fae player's build. A good player with a good build will most likely reduce this to about 20-80.)

Red Aggro Decks-
This is our specialty ladies and gents. This matchup is the one that Fae has to most problems with and we will prey on all that anti-fae out there to provide our wins (Hopefully dragging a few Fae down kicking and screaming). There isnt much to explain about this match up as the deck almost auto pilots itself. A single Primal Command really gives them a slim chance to win. Just make sure you block as much damage as possible and kill their Countryside Crusher the turn it comes out. Garruk and SCG are always in danger of being burned, but its less towards our faces.

Sideboard Advice: Again Finks are an amazing card in the match as they kill creatures and gain you life. Krosan Grips might come in because they will kill the Everlasting Torment that some red players are still using as an answer to our deck. Take the Garruks out as they are almost dead draws against burn.

Matchup Percentage: 70-30 (It might even be as bad as 80-20, but I dont think its that far.)

Lark Combo-
Lark is another hard deck for us to win against if we dont get exactly the right combination of cards. Your going to have to pay just enough threats to force a Wrath of God. Primal Command always needs to flip a land to the top of their library and you usually want to search for your next threat. Garruk is a welcome sight as it allows you to keep up the pressure with tokens and a possible overrun. Garruk also allows you to recover after a Wrath. All in all you have to disrupt them while playing aggressively.

Sideboard Advice: Extirpate is a fantastic hoser for them. Target their 'Lark or Mirror Entity. Mwonvuli Acid-moss is also great disruption and it will buy you time to beat face. Generally, your creature hate isnt as usefull as these SB cards so you need to remove them for the above mentioned.

Matchup Percentage: 30-70 pre-board. 45-55 Post board (Yes, its makes that much of a differance.)

Doran-
This is a tough variety of aggro decks as it is more mid range. It builds vary quite differantly as some play Wilt-Leaf Liege and Gilt-Leaf Cavaliers and some others play more of a controling deck with Terrors and Bitterblossom. The best way to handle them as a whole is to save your Skreds for Doran and the Lieges. Burning away their mana producers with your MD sweepers is also helpful as their mana base is highly unstable.

Sideboard Advice: Chameleon Colossus is a beast in the MU. If you have him SB'ed then I suggest you put him in. Finks are also useful to hold off that turn 2 Doran until you can really afford to deal with him. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss would definately disrupt their fragile mana base.

Matchup Percentage: 60-40 (This is a generalization as this deck only has to run Doran to be called a Doran deck. Certain builds will be easier to win than others)

-The Other Stuff-
G/W Aggro-
This is mostly a mid range aggro deck, and thats a problem for Big Mana. The Gilt-Leaf Cavaliers and Gilt-Leaf Lieges are a tough pill to swallow with their 4 toughness. Many of these decks will have Safehold Elite and most definitely have Kitchen Finks, which both has Persist. This is one of the toughest aggro matchups that Big Mana will face. You are going to want to save your Skred for the Lieges, as they are the biggest threat this deck has to offer. You can use your Wall of Roots to stave off the Cavaliers if you followed the advice in the previous sentance. You are going to want to use your Firespouts and Sulfurous Blasts to take care of the Finks, Safeholds, and other small critters. After that they should be small enough for you to simply block them with your larger creatures without fear of them dieing. Some decks will run Oversoul of Dusk, in which case you use your Cloudthresher to simply block it. Now Sheild of the Oversoul is a dangerous tool that this deck has. It needs to be taken care of BEFORE it hits that creature. This means either making sure all their creatures stay dead or you save a Skred/Mouth of Ronom to kill it in response. Their target will most likely be a Cavalier or a Leige so watch out for those.

Sideboard Advice: Side in your Kitchen Finks to stave off the big hitters and possibly deal enough damage to the bigger creatures to finish them off with a sweeper. Put in your Krosan Grips to take care of the Sheilds.

Matchup Percentage: 60-40


I will add a Merfolk Matchup along with several Tier 2 writeups as I test against them further. Hopefully with the added Tier 2 writeups this will give some insight into this decks strengths and weaknesses.

For some added fun, here is my decklist.

Creatures:14
4 Cloudthresher
4 Wall of Roots
3 Seige-Gang Commander
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 23
4 Into the North
4 Skred
4 Harmonize
3 Sulfurous Blast
3 Firespout
3 Primal Command
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land:23
3 Highland Weald
3 Treetop Village
2 Mouth of Ronom
1 Tresserhorn Sinks
7 Snow Mountain
7 Snow Forest

SB:15
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Primal Command
1 Chamelon Colossus (I might make it two and take out a MaM)

The SB and MD number might need to be shuffled around, but thats the general build of this deck.

Edit: What do people think about the Sweeper to Creature threat ratio? Should there just be 4 Sweepers and more creatures? It seems that there needs to be more of a balance than my deck can provide. Maybe 4 Firespout and 2 extra creatures (Colossus)?

Hope that helps!
-Sir WoGalot
I've been fooling around with GW/r Big Mana, and I am not liking it at all.

I am smashing all these mono red decks silly, and most other non-blue aggro decks justt fine. Merfolk and Faeires is where I just roll over and die to all their counterspells and instant creatures (flash was a huge mistake, thanks developers for ruining another t2 format!).

Here is the deck I have been testing on MWS: (that might be why I'm losing. This program is almost nothing like paper magic)

4 Wall of Roots
3 Oversoul of Dusk
1 Akroma Angel of Fury
3 Cloudthresher
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Crovax

4 Into the North
2 Search for Tomorrow
3 Firespout
3 Condemn
4 Harmonize
2 Austere Command
2 Glittering Wish
2 Primal Command

2 Wooded Basitan
3 Treetop Village
2 Arctic Flats
1 Highland Weald
1 Urza's Factory
2 Mouth of Ronom
6 Snow-Covered Forest
5 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Wispmare
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Firespout
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Primal Command
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Wrath of God


I don't have/can't afford TarmoOverPriced atm. So please don't suggest that :P

I haven't been having that many problems with mana. It's just those 2 decks have SOOOOOO many counterspells that NONE of my relevant spells EVER resolve at all. I'm thinking of putting 4 Vexing Shusher in my SB just so I can cast 1 spell the whole match lol.

I'm a bit sad that none of the suposidly played GW big mana decks top 8'ed the star city tournaments. Perhaps this is the wrong deck. I guess I will just have to watch the Pro Tour (can't wait for the webcast!).
would wilt leaf liege do good in a GW big mana? because im thinking of putting at least 2 in my deck
would wilt leaf liege do good in a GW big mana? because im thinking of putting at least 2 in my deck

not really a good idea, since you wouldn't.. *ehem* paradon.. you SHOULDN'T over commit and play alot of creatures, and since a GW big mana has about 15 creatures, the liege will be most of the time alone..
if you want buffs go with crovax..

i highly recommend the verdict (you know.. that "gain 10 life + a 5/5 giant)
im really liking it, the fact that i removed wall of roots now in my list..
^_^

btw im playing a GWu version with Glittering Wish and Chronicler..
here what im planning to build...

3x Cloudthresher
2x oversoul of dusk
4x kitchen finks
4x wall of roots
1x crovax
1x akroma
--
14


3x oblivion ring
3x primal command
3x austere command
4x harmonize
4x into the north
4x search for tomorrow
--
21

4x treetop village
3x brushland
7x snow covered forest
6x snow covered plains
3x artic flats
--
24

SB

4x mwonvuli acid moss
3x krosan grip / guttural response
3x firespout
3x condemn
1x oversoul of dusk
1x kitchen finks

i need your feedback so i can finally buy them..
regarding the austere command can you help me find a suitable replacement
Are we not a deck to beat anymore?! Outrageous!!

Is this solely because there was no Big mana in the starcity tourneys?

This deck still was like the 2nd most sucessful deck at city champs finals.

Must win regionals to get deck back to dtb status...

PS Have there been any proven competative GW builds yet to put in the first post? Maybe in Japan or something??
idk, i would like to see one of those lists tho, cuz ive heard of them but never seen one (the green/white whale)
I've been looking for G/W lists with recent placings, but the problem is G/W changes a lot with Shadowmoor, so its hard to find any proven lists that include Shadowmoor. I heard that 3 G/W Big Mana made Top 16 at Starcity, but unfortunatly only the top 8 decklists are reported.
this is what I used in the regionals (sadly I only got 6-3)



Decklist: 61 cards
Lands:24
2x arctic flats
2x horizon canopy
3x wooded bastion
3x treetop village
3x brushlands
2x mouth of ronom
1x highlands wealds
1x SC mountain
4x SC forest
3x SC plains
Creatures:17
3x cloudtresher
1x akroma, angel of wrath
1x stonecloaker
1x crovax, ascendant hero
1x twilight shepherd
4x wall of roots
3x oversoul of dusk
3x kitchen finks
Other spell:20
4x into the north
2x garruk wildspeaker
3x wrath of god
4x glittering wish
3x harmonize
2x search for tomorrow
2x primal command

SB:15
2x wispmare
4x mwovuli acid-moss
2x faerie macabre
2x firesprout
1x whee of sun and moon
1x harmonicsliver
1x stormbind
1x dawnglow infusion
1x oversoul of dusk
P.S. use Offalsnout instead of Extirpate if you're on budget.

Faerie Macabre is strictly better than awfulsnout.
I've been playing a Big Mana Build since Mourningtide, I net decked the original deck list from a 1st place State Competition and have been doing my best to keep the deck updated with superior card choices from Shadowmoore, as well as what the meta has been yielding.

Big Mana



I have been playing this deck for a long time and I can say it is quite successful. Scrying Sheets just makes your mana super refined and helps you draw into more Threats/Answers. I took out my 1 Ajani Goldmane for the Chameleon Colossus main deck, because everyone has some big black threat they're trying to shove down my throat.
The Woodfall Primus is just a ridiculous threat when he resolves, and virtually un-deal-with-able. The Twilight Sheppard came in after I lost a 1 of Purity, because the Wrath of God shenanigans are tremendous. Condem, while decidedly not the house that is Skred, is still instant speed removal and definitely messes with a lot of game plans.

Now, the other build I am considering running in my next local T2 Tournament in New Jersey is Big Mana, which is my take on the more traditional colors/theme of the deck.

Big Mana



I'm looking for Input/Advice/Criticism on both builds, thanks and good luck in your own play testing.
On last thread we where talking about RDW... I am using Dragon's Claw because in MTGO there's no Shadowmoor.

the biggest problem is not Everlasting Torment, RDW will start running ManaBarbs. And mana barbs , can totally destroy RG big mana. I am thinking of starting running Seal of Primordium SB, instead of the Dragon Claws, it can be useful agains't those bitter blossoms , and ManaBarbs/Everlasting Torment.
On last thread we where talking about RDW... I am using Dragon's Claw because in MTGO there's no Shadowmoor.

the biggest problem is not Everlasting Torment, RDW will start running ManaBarbs. And mana barbs , can totally destroy RG big mana. I am thinking of starting running Seal of Primordium SB, instead of the Dragon Claws, it can be useful agains't those bitter blossoms , and ManaBarbs/Everlasting Torment.

i think the seal is alot better in the SB than dragon's claw..
maybe because i use a GWu build rather than a GR.
mana barbs hurt alot, though i have answers for it
(austere command[6damage], Glittering Wish to Harmonic Sliver[5damage])
i think that seal is the best answer.. since it's only 1 damage..
austere command is only a 1 of in my deck and i used it once to clear out an everlasting torment, manabarbs and a whole lot of creatures 4cc and below..
its really nice.. as for GR i really think Seal is an awesome SB tech against this manabarbs..
Old virsion:

[/deck]

Changes I am thinking about making are -3 quagnoth for +3 Deus of Calamity. I have yet to try the duce, whats everyones thoughts on him?

-2 Murderous Redcap for either +Garruk or Firespout. Iam not really sure on the garruk or firespout atm.

For the sideboard iam thinking about going -1 spitebellows and +1 primal command.

Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on matter? Try to iron out the paper before i put more money on the deck.
My current list:

// Lands
4 [10E] Treetop Village
3 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket
6 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
4 [CS] Highland Weald
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Cloudthresher
4 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [SHM] Murderous Redcap
4 [TSB] Wall of Roots
2 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [PLC] Harmonize
3 [TSP] Sulfurous Blast
4 [CS] Skred
4 [CS] Into the North

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Sulfurous Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 3 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
SB: 4 [TSP] Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout

Notes:

Murderous Redcap is often a 3-for-1 or a 4-for-1 against Elves. Similarly good against RDW lists.

Sulfurous Blast is better against Incinerate because it's better against Faeries, Elves, and Merfolk (read, the current metagame).
Again, why is Redcap better than Finks? Finks is better against RDW than Redcap, and it's just barely worse against Elves. It also helps clear up your already glutted 4-drop slot for the completely barren 3-drop slot.
RDW isn't a difficult matchup. If it's big in your metagame, play Primal Commands MD instead of Garruks, and maybe make room for Finks in the sideboard. But not MD, instead of Redcap.

Finks is much worse than Redcap against Elves. Gaining 4 life is nowhere near as useful as a 4-for-1 that Redcap often is.
@Velict
So why arent Primal Commands MD in the deck? Its kinda what makes RDWs and autowin...

Also what is the correct amount of Sweepers? I currently use 6, 3 Firespout and 3 Sulfurous Blasts. Ive seen people use as little as 3.

Also, thoughts on Krosan Grip?
My current list

24 Land

4 Treetop
4 Wooded Bastion
4 Brushland
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Horizon Canopy
5 Forest
3 Plains

17 Creatures

4 Wall of Roots
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudthresher
2 Chameleon Colossus
2 Oversoul of Dusk
1 Akroma Angel of Wrath

19 Spells etc.

4 Oblivion Ring
4 Search for Tomorrow
4Wrath of God
4 Harmonize
3 Primal Command

Sideboard

3 Quagnoth ( someone in my meta plays Sonic Boom :/ I'll probably put something else in its place for regionals)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Krosan Grip
3 Acid Moss


And yes I know I'm not supposed to run wall with wrath but I'm not going to run 4 into the norths and put in 8 snow lands that I don't have
If you don't have the snow lands, Coldsteel Heart, or Rampant Growth are both fine.
If you don't have the snow lands, Coldsteel Heart, or Rampant Growth are both fine.

Can't find hearts anywhere it's like they've all vanished

I've thought about growth but walls pretty much the same thing plus it blocks until I get wrath out...and dies but by then they've been set back more than me usually
Having a land that dies to Wrath is exactly the reason you don't run Wall.
Having a land that dies to Wrath is exactly the reason you don't run Wall.

I disagree. Almost every GW list that I've seen, including mine, runs Wall of Roots and Wrath of God. You never need to Wrath on turn 3-4 if you have a wall in play, and by the time you do cast Wrath, you should have a good 6 lands in play so losing the Wall really doesn't matter.
Wall does nothing to good RDW decks, and it does not hold back good GW Aggro decks. It usually buys you a turn, at best, and is terrible late game. Wrath will buy you at least two most of the time, and is NEVER a bad draw.

Futhermore, Wall of Roots as a blocker is only relevant in the matchups you should already auto-win. Losing unnecessary cards to your own sweepers in other matchups is loss that can be otherwise avoided.

Wall of Roots is in a lot of GW decks for the same reason Goyf is; they're ported from RG and people haven't done enough work with the GW lists to realise that the decks have substantial differences, and both cards are redundant at best and hopelessly subpar at worst. Wall of Roots is especially worthless when you're MDing 4 Kitchen Finks anyway.
Wall does nothing to good RDW decks

Mogg Fanatic? Tattermunge Maniac? Keldon Marauders? Countryside Crusher? I fail to see how Wall is anything but excellent at stopping the early beats from RDW.

I pretty much disagree with the rest of your post as well.
Good RDW don't run CSC anymore, at least, not over Ram-Gang. Ram-Gang as a thrid turn play laughs at Wall. Furthermore, if you use Wall for accel at all, it brings it into easy burn range, if they don't bother SWINGING AROUND IT.

That's the biggest problem with Wall of Roots as a 'blocker'. It soaks up a few points of damage, but doesn't stop them from attacking because it has no power. Kitchen Finks is hugely better, because it actually stops your opponent from credibly attacking; if they attack into it, they lose a threat, (and you gain life).

That means that if they don't draw a threat to replace it, you've substantially reduced their tempo, forced them to break even if they do. Instead, it encourages them to sit on their threats until they can burn it out and attack through to mitigate the lifegain and not lose their threats.

With Wall, they can just keep building up the pressure, because Wall doesn't actually stop their game plan.

In any case, the GW matchup already has a ridiculous matchup with Aggro. 3+ Primals, Kitchen Finks, and Wrath, as well as unkillable fat. Wall of Roots is simply an accelerant that:

- Does not last forever.
- Does not fix mana.
- Dies to Wrath.
- Helps only an autowin matchup.

Disagreeing without reasoning makes me automatically inclined to just settle for "You're wrong and stupid." I'll start listening to people's arguments when they actually start making them as opposed to just making statements.
stuffs

well isn't RDWs goal is to end the game early. So chump blocking attackers can actually halt their assault plus if they waste burn on wall of roots that would be on my advantage not only did they waste their burn spell on a non threat but I have less burn spell to worry about hitting my face. One more thing it also good on non R aggro like kithkin and merfolk who doesn't have the reach of burn so blocking their 2/2s or 3/3s is a big deal.

-sure it doesn't last forever but what will you do with an extra in late game anyways you should have lots of mana by that time

-yeah It doesn't fix mana but why would you worry about mana fixing? you have land searchers and have lots of 2 color mana producing lands

-yeah it dies to wrath. you got that one

-extra help is always good
well isn't RDWs goal is to end the game early. So chump blocking attackers can actually halt their assault plus if they waste burn on wall of roots that would be on my advantage not only did they waste their burn spell on a non threat but I have less burn spell to worry about hitting my face. One more thing it also good on non R aggro like kithkin and merfolk who doesn't have the reach of burn so blocking their 2/2s or 3/3s is a big deal.

Kithkin and to a lesser extent Merfolk are pretty easy matchups anyway, because they don't have a lot of reach. If you manage to clear their board, they almost never come back. And in Merfolk's case, a lot of lists run Tideshaper and/or Aquitect's Will, so a blocker is largely irrelevant to them.

Good RDW lists won't scoop if they don't kill you by Turn 4, so delaying them a turn actually doesn't help you all that much.

-sure it doesn't last forever but what will you do with an extra in late game anyways you should have lots of mana by that time

Every piece of mana helps. Furthermore, fetchers like Rampant and ItN thin your library out and makes the lategame draws more useful. Also, it's mana your opponent's generally can't rid themselves off with sweepers of their own.

-yeah It doesn't fix mana but why would you worry about mana fixing? you have land searchers and have lots of 2 color mana producing lands[

Mana fixing is important when you run a lot of nonbasics. I've had a number of 3-land+fetcher, or even 2-land+fetcher openings that have a missing second white. (or in some cases, a second green OR white). Making it to 1GGWW by turn 4 is pretty crucial.
@Velict
So why arent Primal Commands MD in the deck? Its kinda what makes RDWs and autowin...

RDW isn't sufficiently big in my metagame to bother me. It's been tried, but our Elves and Reveillark players smashed it in the face enough that most people have abandoned the deck (Faeries is only the second or third biggest deck in my metagame).

Also what is the correct amount of Sweepers? I currently use 6, 3 Firespout and 3 Sulfurous Blasts. Ive seen people use as little as 3.

3-4 Blast MD, finishing the playset in your sideboard if necessary, and then 3-4 Firespout. I think 4 Blast and 3 Firespout is decent.

Also, thoughts on Krosan Grip?

Metagame dependant. If you see things like Manabarbs and Teferi's Moat, by all means, play it.
Every piece of mana helps. Furthermore, fetchers like Rampant and ItN thin your library out and makes the lategame draws more useful. Also, it's mana your opponent's generally can't rid themselves off with sweepers of their own.

Yeah mana fetchers are good deck thiner no argument on there.

Mana fixing is important when you run a lot of nonbasics. I've had a number of 3-land+fetcher, or even 2-land+fetcher openings that have a missing second white. (or in some cases, a second green OR white). Making it to 1GGWW by turn 4 is pretty crucial.

I dont get this. Mana fixing is important when you run non-basic in this case the non-basic we're talking about is artic flats, highland wealds, wooded bastion, fire-lit thicket, brushlands, karplusan forest and to an extent reflecting pool which can produce all the color you need.

into the north searches for highland wealds or arctic flats. Search for tommorow searches for the basics so does rampant growth.


One more thing I like about wall of roots is that you can reuse it in the opponents turn unlike lands.
RDW isn't sufficiently big in my metagame to bother me. It's been tried, but our Elves and Reveillark players smashed it in the face enough that most people have abandoned the deck (Faeries is only the second or third biggest deck in my metagame).



3-4 Blast MD, finishing the playset in your sideboard if necessary, and then 3-4 Firespout. I think 4 Blast and 3 Firespout is decent.



Metagame dependant. If you see things like Manabarbs and Teferi's Moat, by all means, play it.

RDW is huge in my meta, Lark and things like that are not really seen. Swans is slightly played but:

Grip Kills- Mana Barbs, Teferi's Moat, Bitterblossom, Seismic Assault, and is good against enchanted evening decks. Are these simply worth ignoreing to side in the other things?

Im slightly reluctant to drop the Grips, but I really do like the Redcap idea, itself being a minimum 8 damage with SGC out, not counting if it blocks. I still use Kitchen Finks in the SB just because they are so good.

Also are the Akroma's in there for Lark?
wall of roots single handedly shuts down rdw, they cant deal with it. they HAVE to 2 for 1 it or it just stays in play and if i drop two they QQ i have never lost a game against aggro where i drew a wall of roots (fae excluded). its a huge hoser
I am not sure I follow the argument here. If Mr. Indigo is arguing that you should cut wall of roots for other accelleration such as into the north I agree with him. This only applies to GW. On the other hand wall of roots and his buddy civic wayfinder are the glue that holds GRb big mana together.

In GRb all you have to do is get to 5 or 6 mana without dropping below 10 or so and you win against aggro which is where these guys shine. They are also nice to establish some board prescence to protect the big green machine--garruk wildspeaker--to set up one of those turn 3-4 garruk starts that ends the game very quickly.

If Mr Indigo is arguing that you should just cut wall of roots and only run like 4ItN as accelleration I feel this would be very foolish. You need to get to a large amount of mana fairly quickly and you should expect to be fulminatored a few times and still be able to win.
Good RDW don't run CSC anymore, at least, not over Ram-Gang. Ram-Gang as a thrid turn play laughs at Wall. Furthermore, if you use Wall for accel at all, it brings it into easy burn range, if they don't bother SWINGING AROUND IT.

That's the biggest problem with Wall of Roots as a 'blocker'. It soaks up a few points of damage, but doesn't stop them from attacking because it has no power. Kitchen Finks is hugely better, because it actually stops your opponent from credibly attacking; if they attack into it, they lose a threat, (and you gain life).

I agree about BRG > CSC, but a lot of people still play the crusher. Plus, one creature that we won't want to block doesn't mean we disregard the other 12+ creatures they have that Wall completely shuts down.

You don't play Wall because its a 0/5 blocker. It's acceleration that also happens to soak up damage in the early game. Obviously Finks is better at stopping your opponents attack, because that is its entire job. You are not always going to get a great draw where your opponent comes flying out of the gates and floods the board with creatures and then you blow him out with a turn 3-4 Wrath. A Wall in play means that your opponent will have to swing around it. This is a good thing, it greatly slows down their attack so you either have time to play your own threats or force them to over commit and then Wrath them for major tempo advantage.

There is virtually no downside to playing Wall over ItN. You don't really need mana fixing in a deck like this, and the damage he will soak up early is well worth losing it later in the game to a Wrath (and by that time it will only be a 0/2 or something and you won't really care about losing it).
I'm going to playtest with growth this saturday. Sometimes I do need that extra white and the deck thinning does help but those blood knight hits are going to hurt
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