[Archetype] Red Deck Loses

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[b][size=4]What is Red Deck Loses?[/b][/size]



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Red Deck Loses (RDL) is a deck I threw together in about 10 minutes, about 11 minutes before I left for FNM. The idea was to burn like crazy but most likely fall short. That did not happen. Not only was I beating people, I was doing it convincingly and making them mad since this entire deck can be built for well under $100.

RDL aims to win the game in as few turns as possible by using efficient burn/creature spells to maintain an early damage curve to allow for a turn 5-7 explosion of Rift Bolts, Cheap Burn and Grapeshot all while maintaining more card advantage than should be allowed!


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[b][size=4]Why Play RDL?[/b][/size]



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One of the best reasons to play RDL is that unlike all the people you will be competing against, you can take pride in knowing that your $50 deck is not only holding its own against decks that cost 6+ times as much, but actually beating them regularly.

Another major selling point is that it is next to impossible to stop by traditional means. This deck laughs at counter spells, flying creatures, trampling creatures, creatures with shroud, bounce and so much more. The beauty of this design is that when you decide to go off, you have so many spells flying around that it is impossible (pre-sideboard) to stop them all!

Perhaps the most important reason to play RDL is because it is really fun, and really powerful. This is the type of deck you play when you want to dictate the tempo, and this deck stomps on the accelerator turn 1 and never lets up.


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[b][size=4]How Does RDL Work?[/b][/size]



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RDL works by efficiently spending the first 3 turns getting in damage with creatures, setting up its hand for the big finish, and then executing the big finish. Ideally it wants to go off by turn 5, but if it takes a turn or two longer it is usually within reason to still expect to win.

The first few turns are ideally spent aggressively attacking with Mogg Fantastic and Keldon Marauders while using Incinerate to either keep the road clear or smack the dome of your opponent. Browbeat early on keeps the pressure on by either refilling your hand or doing the 5 damage and dropping your opponent dangerously close to Rift Bolt+Grapeshot territory. In the interim cards like Mudbutton Torchrunner help pile on the damage while holding off ground assaults.
Binaural's RDL Strategy
As mentioned above, my RDL is not the aggressive build, it is the more cautious, defensive build. I will lay out a strategy guide here based on a fairly favorable draw and assume very little about the opponent's deck. Obviously things change if you are against faeries vs treefolk for example and certainly based on what draw you end up getting, but this is generally how I liek to play assuming basic conditions, and then I modify my strategy on the fly based on all the variables as the develop.

If I am on the draw I almost always keep a 1 land hand providing that one land is a mountain. If I am going first, I insist on 2 lands as my minimum to keep.

Turn 1 is Mogg Fanatic, and providing that on later turns they have no blockers, I will attack with him. I also attack with him if all they have are mana elves or other 1 drops that they will want in play. Turn 2 is Keldon Marauders or else Incinerate. I'd like the Incinerate to be dome damage, but removing a solid 2 drop (for example, Wren's Run Vanquisher) from your opponent is also a good play since it will buy you turns down the road.

Turn 3 I like dropping Mud Buddy as he is a solid anti-aggro option, but if I don't have him I will cast Browbeat to draw more cards (or do 5 damage, but most people let you draw the cards which suits me fine). Turns 4-6 are about survival, stockpiling burn cards and removing threats. At some point in this stretch of turns it is a good idea to drop Sulfurous Blast to keep the board clearish, and the more Moggs/Mud Buddies in play the better as you will get in a lot of dome damage in the process.

Then when you have their life total down around 10-12, it is time to build up to the big finish. It is important to do this at 10-12 and not at 5-7 because most people will not expect you to burn them out from 12 as much as they will if they are at 5. Once they know you are burning them they will not fear it so much, and for whatever reason, most opponents will not expect you to drop them to zero from above 10 as if they are say, within Incinerate range. At this stage, suspending a Rift Bolt or 2 really gets their eyes bulging and they know they only have 1 turn to live, so they will pull out all the stops, so it is a good idea if you have some mana free for an instant speed burn spell (to take out a creature) on the off chance they figure out a way to sneak in lethal on you.

Then once the Rift Bolts resolve (or get countered, although countering multiples has never happened to me) You drop down a few more burn spells then Grapeshot FTW. You can also have 1+ damage from Grapeshot target your own Mud Buddies if you still have some in play to do even more damage.

So basically, with my list, I aim to win on turns 6-8 and I spend most of my time before that keeping myself alive with blockers that get damage in when they die and also by slipping in the occasional "jab" with Keldon Marauders and EOT burn. Then when I get them down far enough (say 10 damage) I will unload my hand and fry their face.






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[b][size=4]What Cards Go In RDL?[/b][/size]


Creature Spells

Mogg Fanatic: An early thorn in your opponent's side that will continue to irritate. 4 is a must.
Keldon Marauders: This 2-drop is essential to the early win. also want a 4-of.
Mudbutton Torchrunner: This is a personal call more than anything, run if you want. It does serve as really good intimidation against Doran Doran or other aggro.
Storm Entity: For the stormy types
Spark Elemental: Decent first turn drop.
Emberwilde Augur: Another option to slow down aggro while still posing an explosive threat, but the timing of the sacrifice ability makes it less desirable than Torchrunner

Burn Spells

Shock: A quick 2 damage.
Assault// Battery: Just another shock unless you splash green.
Tarfire: Shock's gobo cousin.
Sudden Shock: Shock's uncounterable relative
Rift bolt: Awesome burn with a small delay. Sick with decks that run Grapeshot or Ignite Memories
Lightning Storm: A great card that can be used for finishing. But make sure to have more than 18 lands in your deck when you run this.
Shard Volley: More burn awesomeness.
Incinerate: Another necessary burn spell. Run 4.
Grapeshot: An awesome finisher to build up to
Ignite Memories: A bit expensive, but if you build up a storm with Rite of Flame, it can be devastating.
Needle Drop: Salt on the wound and a cantrip to boot.
Browbeat: Not sure if this should be Card Draw or Burn. Or both? :D
Pyroclasm: Provides much needed creature control/synergies well with Mudbutton Torchrunner
Burning Trail: An okay card for this deck, not the greatest unless you run more than 8 creatures because it wont pull off as much.
Sulfurous Blast: Awesome board wipe. Meta dependent, MD in most cases.
Firespout Another great board wipe, especially if you run green splash
Flame Javelin: A great card in this deck, although some might personally favor cheaper spells.

Other Cards to Consider

Manamorphose: A nice card, especially if you want to rack up your storm count. Basically 0 mana for draw.
Fossil Find: Get a burn spell back most of the time? Adds up storm count? yes!
Mountain: If you can't figure this out, you might as well quit magic.
Mishra's Bauble: Peek for . Wrap it up!
Rite of Flame: If you want to go the neo D-Storm route, you'll need to build up a storm. That's where this guy comes in.
Keldon Megaliths: This card should be at least considered as a 1 or 2 of inclusion in any RDL
Kher Keep: Allows the ability to create chump blocks for fat ground attackers
Wheel of Fate: Synergies well with this entire deck list.

Potential Sideboard Material

Everlasting Torment: A definite sound 4-of SB if Lark and Lifegain is in your local Meta. Also good for taking down big creatures!
Arc Blade: it keeps coming back to bite 'em in the @**. Good SB material.
Pithing Needle: Got Story Circle? No problem, mon.
Fury Charm: Budget Artifact hate+options. Your call.
Disenchant Takes out all enchantments/artifacts, use only as a last resort if your meta is stacked with annoying enchantment/artifacts, and if so you will have to main deck Battlefield Forge.
Detritivore: Nice option against opponents running many, many annoying non-basics. Slows your clock, but adds to storm when it comes into play.
Tormod's Crypt: Provides a very nice defense against Lark/Blink and Reanimator.
Cryoclasm: Excellent against all these decks that boldly choose to plains with islands/plains.
Faerie Macabre: Very useful anti-Lark card.

Anti-discard Deck Tech
Discard decks featuring The Rack pose the biggest challenge to RDL, so these cards in the sideboard will help RDL battle against the discard deck.
Guerrilla Tactics: Against a discard deck, this card is 4 damage for 0 mana, not bad at all.
Dodecapod: Against a turn 1 funeral Charm this guy wins you the game no later than the 5th turn, even less with a few burn spells thrown in.
Wheel of Fate: Reload your hand for another assault. W00t!
Fiery Temper: When played for the madness cost, is quite devastating.


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[b][size=4]Sample RDL Deck Lists[/b][/size]


Sample Decks


Red Deck Loses by Binaural (Original)
[deck=Red Deck Loses(Original)]
CREATURES:
4 x Mogg Fantastic
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Mudbutton Torchrunner

SPELLS:
4 x Shard Volley
4 x Incinerate
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Sulfurous Blast
4 x Browbeat
4 x Shock
4 x Grapeshot

LAND:
18 x Mountain
2 x Kher Keep[/deck]
Chris Eng's Deck
[deck= Chris Eng 1st Place Seattle City Champs 2008!]
CREATURES
4* Martyr of Ashes
4* Mogg Fanatic
4* Keldon Mauraders
`
SPELLS
4* Grapeshot
4* Incinerate
4* Rift Bolt
4* Shard Volley
4* Shock
4* Sulforous Blast
`
LANDS
3* Ghitu Encampment
2* Horizon Canopy
15* Mountain
4* Mutavault
`
SIDEBOARD
3* Cryoclasm
3* Manabarbs
3* Sudden Impact
2* Threaten
2* Tormod's Crypt
2* Wild Ricochet[/deck]


Binaural's Current List
[deck=Binaural's Current List]
Creatures:
4 x Mogg Fantastic
4 x Keldon Marauders
3 x Murderous Redcap

SPELLS:
4 x Shock
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Incinerate
4 x Flame Javelin
4 x Browbeat
4 x Sulfurous Blast
3 x Shard Volley

LAND:
16 x Mountain
4 x Ghitu Encampment
2 x Mutavault
Total = 60

SIDEBOARD:
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Everlasting Torment
3 x Guttural Response
3 x Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt
3 x Cryoclasm [/deck]


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[b][size=4]Match Ups[/b][/size]



Because of this deck's rather unique path to victory, there are not a lot of current standard decks that present a great deal of problems for RDL. Since RDL aims to just burn face ASAP a lot of creature based decks simply cannot get 20 in on the RDL deck before they get burned for 20 to the face. The notable exception is Doran Doran which has a faster clock than RDL. Later versions of RDL have included more creatures (most notably Mudbutton Torchrunner) to attempt to slow down Doran and his attacking hordes. Results have been mixed, but these changes have given RDL a chance where previously there was none.

Every deck has one or two creatures at least that really must be dealt with (like Mad Auntie, Scion of Oona, Imperious Perfect, Treetop Village among others, and this deck does run Incinerate for that reason. Burning out 1 tough creature with 1 Incinerate can buy RDL all the time it needs to finish the job.

Also, as previously mentioned, any deck which has a reliable source of life gain is a big problem for RDL. While the dreaded Martyr of Sands seems to have lost favor of late, it is still devastating. The other major life gaining card RDL must worry about is Loxodon Warhammer (which is run in decks like The Rock). In game 1 it can be worked around by burning the creature attached to the warhammer, but games 2 and 3 there must be a sideboard answer for Warhammer, which usually takes the form of Fury Charm or Pithing Needle.

In recent times Lark/Blink has burst on the scene with tremendous results and is probably THE deck to beat right now. RDL wins game 1 far more than any other current archetype does, but games 2 and 3 can be trouble with the sideboarded Aven Riftwatcher. Some kind of graveyard disruption is essential to having a chance post board against Lark (Tormod's Crypt) or else good old Cryoclasm.

The last major archetype that gives RDL problems is discard. Most good discard decks will dominate the first game, but since the RDL player knows its weaknesses, the sideboard will turn the tides in games 2 and 3 with additions like Guerrilla Tactics and Dodecapod.

SPECIAL NOTE:
Management wishes to inform everyone that they will no longer be discussing the benefits of Grapeshot. Please note that it has been discussed ad nauseum throughout the many pages of the thread, and everything that can be said about it has been said countless times, so if you want to know about Grapeshot, you are going to have to read the thread.

To sum up why Grapeshot is a great card for RDL:
- It synergies terrificly with suspended cards like Rift Bolt and Wheel of Fate
- It synergies greatly with cheap burn like Shock and Shard Volley
- It divides its damage into increments of 1 so you can send each damage wherever you want (like your own Mud Buddy)
- It is virtually uncounterable
- It synergies well with your opponent's counter spells
- On average and with very little planning it is 2 mana for (on average) 3-4 damage and 1 card

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<em>*Under Construction*</em>
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Thank You



...To Yourradiogeek for the AWESOME banner!
...To Hodoku for the excellent red borders.
...To ddrfr33k for believing.
...To Binaural for creating RDL and bringing greatness to the board.

---
Old thread: Old RDL Thread
Is the main thread going to updated with shadowmoor and the like?
LOL, we shouldn't have made this, Atmapalazzo is working on a Red Deck Loses / Mono-Red Burn thread for the Decks To Beat forum :D
Nice thread! You may want to update the sample decklists a little; in case you do, here's what I'll be running post-SHM:



3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghitu+Encampment" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Ghitu+Encampment">Ghitu Encampment</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Keldon+Megaliths" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Keldon+Megaliths">Keldon Megaliths</a>
6 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mountain" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mountain">Mountain</a>


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mogg+Fanatic" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mogg+Fanatic">Mogg Fanatic</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Keldon+Marauders" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Keldon+Marauders">Keldon Marauders</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mudbutton+Torchrunner" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mudbutton+Torchrunner">Mudbutton Torchrunner</a>


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rift+Bolt" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Rift+Bolt">Rift Bolt</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shock" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Shock">Shock</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shard+Volley" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Shard+Volley">Shard Volley</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Incinerate" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Incinerate">Incinerate</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Browbeat" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Browbeat">Browbeat</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame+Javelin" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flame+Javelin">Flame Javelin</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfurous+Blast" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Sulfurous+Blast">Sulfurous Blast</a>


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cryoclasm" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Cryoclasm">Cryoclasm</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guerilla+Tactics" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Guerilla+Tactics">Guerilla Tactics</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing+Needle" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Pithing+Needle">Pithing Needle</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dodecapod" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Dodecapod">Dodecapod</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spitebellows" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Spitebellows">Spitebellows</a>
Is the main thread going to updated with shadowmoor and the like?

Yes. I am still working on it, but you will see some new additions to the card selections... I just got back from shopping and I'll be a little busy. You will see more tonight.

LOL, we shouldn't have made this, Atmapalazzo is working on a Red Deck Loses / Mono-Red Burn thread for the Decks To Beat forum

Did Binaural give Atma permission to continue the thread? No. I'll send you a PM if you want saying that Binaural gave me permission to continue it.

And if you look at the thread Red Burn, Atma says "Ok, one more thing checked in the 'not to do' list.


@metallica_fan32:
I like that deck. Flame Javelin is one of the greater cards from shadowmoor that will be put into RDL!

Only thing I would do is -1 Flame Javelin and +1 Browbeat.
Yes. I am still working on it, but you will see some new additions to the card selections... I just got back from shopping and I'll be a little busy. You will see more tonight.



Did Binaural give Atma permission to continue the thread? No. I'll send you a PM if you want saying that Binaural gave me permission to continue it.

And if you look at the thread Red Burn, Atma says "Ok, one more thing checked in the 'not to do' list.


@metallica_fan32:
I like that deck. Flame Javelin is one of the greater cards from shadowmoor that will be put into RDL!

Only thing I would do is -1 Flame Javelin and +1 Browbeat.

Whty would he need Binaural's permission. Its just a burn deck and they are on other forums and Ninaural didn't invent the archtype.
Whty would he need Binaural's permission. Its just a burn deck and they are on other forums and Ninaural didn't invent the archtype.

thats just what "they" want you to believe
Here is my deck so you have another sample post shadowmoore list if you need it :D

Also I think you should include the following Deck in the Sample Decks considering that Atmapalazzo is now considering transferring this thread to the Decks to Beat forum. So we need this deck in the list of sample decks at the very least.
Chris Eng's Deck
[deck= Chris Eng 1st Place Seattle City Champs 2008!]
CREATURES
4* Martyr of Ashes
4* Mogg Fanatic
4* Keldon Mauraders
`
SPELLS
4* Grapeshot
4* Incinerate
4* Rift Bolt
4* Shard Volley
4* Shock
4* Sulforous Blast
`
LANDS
3* Ghitu Encampment
2* Horizon Canopy
15* Mountain
4* Mutavault
`
SIDEBOARD
3* Cryoclasm
3* Manabarbs
3* Sudden Impact
2* Threaten
2* Tormod's Crypt
2* Wild Ricochet[/deck]
Doesn't this deck have about eight cards difference between Red Deck Wins?

*sigh*
Doesn't this deck have about eight cards difference between Red Deck Wins?

*sigh*

No actually it has several more cards difference... runs less creatures than Red Deck Wins... runs different creatures than Red Deck Wins... runs more burn... and is actually more of a control deck than Red Deck Wins. And didn't you complain about this deck when I posted it on MTGS?
It's exactly the same deck, as I and numerous other posters noted in Sally.

Let's look at the only decklist posted here so far, Metallica's. Trade out the Mudbottoms for Tattermunges (Tattermunge is *much* better), lose the Sulfurous Blasts for Boggart Ram-Gangs, Countryside Crushers, or something similar, and we have a pretty standard RDW build.
It's exactly the same deck, as I and numerous other posters noted in Sally.

Let's look at the only decklist posted here so far, Metallica's. Trade out the Mudbottoms for Tattermunges (Tattermunge is *much* better), lose the Sulfurous Blasts for Boggart Ram-Gangs, Countryside Crushers, or something similar, and we have a pretty standard RDW build.

Except, the Mudbutton Torchrunner is one of our answers for Goyf (it makes people more hesitant to run into it). Additionally, Sulfurous Blast is a great card in this deck. It is one of our control cards to do both burn and field clearing with.

Ultimately they are not the same deck, they run totally different strategies, despite what you people on Salvation might think.

Oh and I posted two different deck lists in the sblock's.
Why do you need to answer Tarmogoyf? You're a burn deck. Just get your early damage in, and sit back and burn him to death for the rest of it. You don't care about board position.

Sulfurous Blast is good, but not against the majority of the metagame. I think it's sideboard material. If you want a MD board sweeper, Martyr of Ashes is better.

I don't see any different strategy. Both decks try to deal 20 damage as fast as possible, relying on fast creatures to deal early damage and heavy burn to finish the opponent off.
Velict, you posted something about RDL in the previous thread correct? If so, you should know by now it's pointless to continue complaining about it here.
Complaining? I'm explaining that deck already has its own archetype, and it's called RDW.

(Also, the word is Archetype, not Archtype.)
The burn deck borrows greatly from a similar Extended strategy (Shard Volley and Keldon Marauders mostly); its goal is to reduce the opponent from 20 to 0 life without undue effort in The Red Zone, mostly via a number of direct damage spells.

Note, creature removal is quite poor against this deck. Most of the deck's creatures are either completely disposable, or have a built-in shelf life (like Keldon Marauders). One of the advantages—especially in a world where many of the top decks are starting Sower of Temptation even off-tribe—is that Sower is pretty weak against the burn deck, even though it does a fair amount of damage via creatures. - Mike Flores

I'd say the whole resistant to removal part doesn't fly with RDW.
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
Why do you need to answer Tarmogoyf? You're a burn deck. Just get your early damage in, and sit back and burn him to death for the rest of it. You don't care about board position.

This deck cares about the opponent having a board position that could kill us before we get 20 damage off. So being able to have a card in play that will deter them from attacking is really something that we look to have in our favor. Though if you notice, my Red Deck Loses deck does not run Mudbutton Torchrunner. It is really an individual call for each person.

Sulfurous Blast is good, but not against the majority of the metagame. I think it's sideboard material. If you want a MD board sweeper, Martyr of Ashes is better.

Again that depends entirely upon the individual. The reason people like Sulfurous Blast in Red Deck Loses as a main deck card, is it is both a board sweeper and a direct damage card. Red Deck Loses doesn't have very many creatures on the field very often to be concerned about losing to the card, so there is no need to worry about it hitting the decks own creatures. Red Deck Wins on the other hand does have alot of creatures to be concerned with, which is why it is mainly a sideboard card in that deck.

I don't see any different strategy. Both decks try to deal 20 damage as fast as possible, relying on fast creatures to deal early damage and heavy burn to finish the opponent off.

Actually, Red Deck Loses relies on heavy burn throughout the game, and only relies on fast creatures occasionally. It doesn't really use creatures at all actually, and tries to minimize the number of creatures it uses.
You're basically summing up RDW's strategy, Atmapalazzo. RDW is just as resistant to removal. I've rarely seen RDW builds packing more than 16 creatures, and at least 8 of those are one-drops.
I'd say the whole resistant to removal part doesn't fly with RDW.

And I would very much agree.
This deck cares about the opponent having a board position that could kill us before we get 20 damage off. So being able to have a card in play that will deter them from attacking is really something that we look to have in our favor. Though if you notice, my Red Deck Loses deck does not run Mudbutton Torchrunner. It is really an individual call for each person.

I'd rather just play a more aggressive card and kill them with it. I can block if I need to. Also, the Martyr can easily wipe their board, compared to the Mudbutton.

Again that depends entirely upon the individual. The reason people like Sulfurous Blast in Red Deck Loses as a main deck card, is it is both a board sweeper and a direct damage card. Red Deck Loses doesn't have very many creatures on the field very often to be concerned about losing to the card, so there is no need to worry about it hitting the decks own creatures. Red Deck Wins on the other hand does have alot of creatures to be concerned with, which is why it is mainly a sideboard card in that deck.

On average, RDW has 4 more creatures, and often has just as many as "RDL" does. It's not really a huge consideration for either deck, since they both use their creatures as expendable burn spells and nothing else.


Actually, Red Deck Loses relies on heavy burn throughout the game, and only relies on fast creatures occasionally. It doesn't really use creatures at all actually, and tries to minimize the number of creatures it uses.

Fanatic, Maniac, and Marauders are the most efficient burn spells your deck can possibly run.
You're basically summing up RDW's strategy, Atmapalazzo. RDW is just as resistant to removal. I've rarely seen RDW builds packing more than 16 creatures, and at least 8 of those are one-drops.

Actually as of late... I have seen a Red Deck Wins running the following:

4 Flamekin Bladewhirl
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Vengeful Firebrand
4 Spark Elemental

If I count correctly, that is approximately: 24 creatures...
Actually as of late... I have seen a Red Deck Wins running the following:

4 Flamekin Bladewhirl
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Vengeful Firebrand
4 Spark Elemental

If I count correctly, that is approximately: 24 creatures...

I don't recommend using terribly untuned decklists as the norm.
I'd rather just play a more aggressive card and kill them with it. I can block if I need to. Also, the Martyr can easily wipe their board, compared to the Mudbutton.

Which is why I run Martyr in my deck, not Mudbutton. :p



On average, RDW has 4 more creatures, and often has just as many as "RDL" does. It's not really a huge consideration for either deck, since they both use their creatures as expendable burn spells and nothing else.

From what I have seen, Red Deck Loses on average has only 8 Creatures. While on Average Red Deck Wins has 16 to 20 creatures. I would say that is between 8 and 12 extra creatures in Red Deck Wins, 8 and 12 less burn spells in Red Deck Wins. Totally different strategy! Totally less resistant to removal! Red Deck Wins actually uses its creatures as aggro cards. Red Deck Loses uses its creatures either as Expendable Burn, or as chump blockers (or in the case of decks that run 12 creatures (usually Martyr of the Ashes, or Mudbutton) they use Mass Removal or additional burn as their additional creature. Most of the Creatures in Red Deck Wins, do not have burn effects, but merely attack effects at best.

Fanatic, Maniac, and Marauders are the most efficient burn spells your deck can possibly run.

At least when it comes to efficient creature-burn spells, we agree. However I would argue that Rift Bolt is pretty damned efficient considering it is in Legacy Burn... from which this deck draws inspiration... additionally this deck draws inspiration from Extended Burn as well. This decks archetype comes from a long tradition of Burn decks, not Red Deck Wins decks. Decks that focus on taking the opponents life down by using a minimal amount of creatures and a large amount of efficient burn spells.
They look the same, fine. So do Rock and Doran. Guess what, they each get their own thread.

/******** argument
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
I don't recommend using terribly untuned decklists as the norm.

I didn't say it was the norm. I said it was one I had seen recently. However, the norm I have seen... usually runs between 16 and 20 creatures. Usually leaning towards 20 creatures. Burn usually runs between 8 and 12 creatures. Making a difference of between 4 and 12 cards between the decks.
What Dalkon said.

Also, RDW is a creature-heavy aggro deck. RDL is spell-heavy control deck where are removal is burn (mass or spot).
They look the same, fine. So do Rock and Doran. Guess what, they each get their own thread.

/******** argument

Well said.
Well I figured I'd re-type my last post from the previous thread since it got lost in the shuffle of new thread discussion and the dozen plus OT posts here. Besides, it may get us back on track in discussing decklists, optimal plays, and match-ups.

A quick match result of my online game using this decklist:


vs. what I can only assume was Lark Blink:

Him turn 1: Reflecting Pool (20/20)
Me turn 1: Ghitu Encampment (20/20)
Him turn 2: Reflecting Pool (20/20)
Me turn 2: Mountain, Keldon Maruders (20/19)
Him turn 3: Wanderwine Hub {showing Mirror Entity}, Aven Riftwatcher (20/21)
Me turn 3: Mountain, Incinerate {Riftwatcher}, Marauders attack (20/20)
Him turn 4: Mutavault, Mirror Entity (20/19)
Me turn 4: Mountain, Pyroclasm (20/19)
Him turn 5: Mind Stone, Mutavault attacks (18/19)
Me turn 5: Ghitu Encampment attacks, suspend Rift Bolt (18/17)
Him turn 6: Reflecting Pool, Mutavault attacks (16/17)
Me turn 6: Rift Bolt unsuspends, Mountain, Needle Drop, Needle Drop, Shock, Grapeshot (16/5)
Him turn 7: {will I don't know what he would have done cause he quit}
Me turn 8: {last two cards in hand are Shard Volley and Mountain, this turn draw Mudbutton Torchrunner}

I think I would have won, but he may have slowed me down a bit.
Why on earth are you playing Pyroclasm? It's so much worse than - really, any other option available to you - that it's not even funny.

Also, Needle Drop probably isn't worth playing, either. Grapeshot is debatable, but I don't like it.
Why on earth are you playing Pyroclasm? It's so much worse than - really, any other option available to you - that it's not even funny.

Also, Needle Drop probably isn't worth playing, either. Grapeshot is debatable, but I don't like it.

Because it's what works in my meta. Why don't you just leave this thread? You don't like its existance and you weren't a regular in the old thread so why don't you take your attitude and ****-off.
Because it's what works in my meta. Why don't you just leave this thread? You don't like its existance and you weren't a regular in the old thread so why don't you take your attitude and ****-off.

Whoa. The ad hominem alarm is going off.

Pyroclasm is inferior to Martyr of Ashes and Sulfurous Blast in that it doesn't actually deal damage to your opponent, ever. Playing all three is drastic overkill.

Needle Drop is 1 damage for 1 mana, and a cantrip. That's worse than Rift Bolt and Shard Volley. The fact that it's conditional probably makes it worse than Shock, too.

Grapeshot suffers from the fact that it needs a lot going for it to become an efficient burn spell. It's almost always going to worse than Incinerate.

What, I think, is a pretty streamlined deck:

19 Mountain
3 Ghitu Encampment

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Spark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
2 Shock
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Javelin
4 Browbeat

16 creatures, yes, but the deck is hardly creature based. Spark Elemental is more efficient than most any burn spell you could run in its place, simply enough.

You can probably maindeck the Sulfurous Blasts in place of 2 Shocks and 2 Tattermuges if your metagame is extremely aggro-heavy. Or just play Martyr of Ashes instead of Tattermuge.
For whatever it is worth to people, this second thread was planned and I personally chose Wulfpak to start the second thread. After 31 pages, it was time for a little spring cleaning, and the release of Shadowmoor seemed like a perfect time to make that transition, since it appears the deck will be undergoing a drastic overhaul in tech.

It wouldn't surprise me if the original RDL idea gets split into 2-3 different decks post Shadowmoor. There are several different ways this simple concept of direct damage can go. We have already seen the burn to your face quickly, the play more defensively and combo off with storm and now we have cheap burn and man lands. With Shadowmoor, these decks will probably move further apart in similarity.

Anyhoo, nice work Wulfpak
It's exactly the same deck, as I and numerous other posters noted in Sally.

Let's look at the only decklist posted here so far, Metallica's. Trade out the Mudbottoms for Tattermunges (Tattermunge is *much* better), lose the Sulfurous Blasts for Boggart Ram-Gangs, Countryside Crushers, or something similar, and we have a pretty standard RDW build.

....

In the OP for decklists in RDW, I see the lowest amount of creatures in a deck is 18. The highest spell count is 20, and the rest are 16 or 12.

In the OP for decklists in RDL, I see the highest amount of creatures in a deck is 12. I personally run 8, as do most decklists. The lowest amount of spells runs around 26-30.

RDL Uses Instants and Sorceries, RDW uses creatures. Get over it.

RDL standard spell is Rift Bolt or Incinerate.
RDW standard spell is Greater Gargadon. Why would we use GG? Why would you use Sulforous blast? These are the differences of our decks.

Thank you Dalcin for helping me when I wasnt around, people like Velict need to know the difference...
Thank you Simbacca for posting that statistic, thats very helpful!

Anyhoo, nice work Wulfpak

Thanks! I'll be working on it for a while to come though.
16 creatures, yes, but the deck is hardly creature based. Spark Elemental is more efficient than most any burn spell you could run in its place, simply enough.

You are simply wrong. Spark Elemental is one of the worst cards you can be running instead of a burn. the only turn it is useful is turn one.. With this much of a creature meta why would you have a 3/1 that wouldnt survive a 1/1 and not put damage through?
Thank you Dalcin for helping me when I wasnt around, people like Velict need to know the difference...

I assume you mean me? And it wasn't a problem :D

And just so everyone knows, I did post 2 decks that I think should go in the sample deck list in Post #8 :D

Edit: I just edited the deck list in post #8 for my personal deck... changed the Pyroclasm to Sulfurous Blast because of a match against Lark that I got into that made me think that Sulfurous Blast would be so much better for me.
You are simply wrong. Spark Elemental is one of the worst cards you can be running instead of a burn. the only turn it is useful is turn one.. With this much of a creature meta why would you have a 3/1 that wouldnt survive a 1/1 and not put damage through?

Not that I'm saying it's a great choice, but Spark Elemental has trample, so it would put damage through.
If this goes to the DtB, can we not call it Red Deck Loses?

Burn Deck Burns, or Red Burn, or Burn Deck Wins are much better names.

Everything else looks great though! Nice work!

There's a decklist floating around that was really a straight forward Burn Deck. Running 22 Lands, 4 Keldon Marauders, and 34 Burn Spells. I believe it did quite well. When I find it, I'll post it.
You are simply wrong. Spark Elemental is one of the worst cards you can be running instead of a burn. the only turn it is useful is turn one.. With this much of a creature meta why would you have a 3/1 that wouldnt survive a 1/1 and not put damage through?

It's not only useful on turn 1. It's actually able to get some damage through in most situations where you can play it. It's great against Reveillark, and good against Faeries. The only real situation I can think of where it's not better than Shock is when your opponent has a Wall of Roots on the board (and exactly one deck plays Wall of Roots).

Besides, trading a Spark Elemental for...well, anything is almost always in your favor.
Look Velict it comes down to this simple fact. Whether you like it or not, Red Burn exists, and it is a different strategy than Red Deck Wins. If you do not like it... go complain to the Extended Players that play Red Burn that they are really playing Red Deck Wins... or perhaps to the Legacy Players who play Red Burn that they are playing Red Deck Wins. It is an old archetype that really does exist seperate from Red Deck Wins, and uses an entirely different strategy! So live with it!
Look Velict it comes down to this simple fact. Whether you like it or not, Red Burn exists, and it is a different strategy than Red Deck Wins. If you do not like it... go complain to the Extended Players that play Red Burn that they are really playing Red Deck Wins... or perhaps to the Legacy Players who play Red Burn that they are playing Red Deck Wins. It is an old archetype that really does exist seperate from Red Deck Wins, and uses an entirely different strategy! So live with it!

How is this relevant to the Spark Elemental discussion? You're the only one still arguing, here.
How is this relevant to the Spark Elemental discussion? You're the only one still arguing, here.

You're still on this thread... and your still trying to make our decks more like Red Deck Wins (by proposing we run 16 creatures instead of 8 to 12)... so the way I see it your just as stuck on this as I am.