R/x Deck Wins

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What is R/x Deck Wins? [color=black]


[INDENT][INDENT]R/g Deck Wins focuses on what the famous aggro color, red, and splashing some colors (primarily green) can offer in the Type 2 format to create a very fast and powerful aggro deck. R/g Deck Wins decks consist of cheap, efficient creatures to beat the opponent into the ground, and powerful burn spells to finish them off. Combining quality cards of these two elements creates an extremely strong and fast deck that's a force to be reckoned with. Red-based aggro decks have been winning tournaments since the colors were created, and have come back after Shadowmoor's recent release to dominate the aggro scene again.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

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[/color]The History of R/x Deck Wins[color=black]


[INDENT][INDENT]*This sections is currently being researched by SGTDfromMA for your own benefit, and will be updated shortly*[/INDENT][/INDENT]

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[/color]What Are the Different Types of R/x Deck Wins?



[INDENT][indent]Well, if you thought there were a lot of versions of red-based aggro decks floating around, you were right. This thread is meant to focus on the most competetive, R/x Deck Wins, but will also briefly discuss the other versions out there. Some are very good and popular and are played competetively, and some are meant for the more budget-minded folk, and are more casual. If you're interested in playing some sort of R/x Deck Wins, this section should help you out. If you have any questions or suggestions about or for this section, feel free to contact me directly.

Red Deck Wins
The infamous, the succesful, the kick-ass red-based aggro deck of the format. Red Deck Wins is is a mixture between a sligh creature-based aggro deck and and a deck full of burn spells. It runs a good amount of creatures for the beginning of the game, and it plays them as one would play any sort of aggro deck. One-Drop turn one, Two-Drop turn two, Three-Drop turn three, etc. In addition to it's creatures, Red Deck Wins runs all of the best red burn spells in the Type 2 format. The burn spells have many uses, they can take out weenies to make way for your attackers to get through, they can get rid of a big threat your opponent has dropped, and they can hit the opponent's life total directly to help speed along the win for you. How you decide to focus your deck on creatures or burn spells is up to you. Red Deck Wins, is usually mono-red, hence the name, but splashing for other colors (mainly green, or black), is very common and can either improve or worsen your deck, depending on how mana intensive the cards you splash for are, and how you build your land base accordingly. These splashes will be discussed throughly later in this guide. Generally, in your Red Deck Wins, you want to run 20-24 lands, 16-24 creatures, and 12-24 burn spells or pump spells. Your mana curve should be mainly in the one to three drop range, to ensure that you drop early threats when you need to. Four drops and five drops can be run, but at a minimum. Anything costing more than five is probably too expensive for this aggro deck.

Red Deck Loses
Don't let the name deceive you, this deck is also a force to be reckoned with. The name is just a catchy twist of the former deck, Red Deck Wins. Red Deck Loses is a very similar form of Red Deck Wins that also goes by the name of "Burn" and "Burn Deck Wins." Why? It's tends to be more than 60% burn spells! This deck focuses of killing the opponent with countless number of cheap-costing, and powerful burn spells. What's so great about them is that they're your means for control, and they're also your win-con. You'll generally want to direct most of your burn spells to your opponent, because you're trying to reduce his or her life down to zero as quickly as possible, but when there are threats on the board, it's smart to take care of those with burn spells too. This deck is mono red, and does not usually splash for anything non-red. Your deck will generally consist of around 20-24 lands, 8-16 creatures, and 20-32 burn spells. Your mana curve should be focused on one and two drops, with some three drops, and then very few four drops, if any at all. A thread that is more devoted to the concept of much more burn, much less creatures can be found here: Red Deck Loses Archetype.


Classic Gruul
This form of Red Deck Wins is not as burn-focused as the other versions. Instead, it works like a sligh aggro deck, using more creatures than the other decks and burn spells to make each turn you play as effective as possible. This deck is called Classic Gruul after the red-green Ravnica guild, Gruul Beats. It is always at least red and green, and often splashes black (Dark Gruul), or white (Zoo) to get the best of the best creatures and spells. On turn one, you want to play a one drop, turn two you want to play a two drop, turn three, you want to play a three drop, turn four, a four drop, and you hopefully want to win on turn five or turn six. Classic Gruul focuses on playing bigger and better creatures each turn until they're finally at a low enough life total to burn to death.Whatever type of Classic Gruul you're playing, it will most likely consist of around 20-24 lands, 12-16 one drops, 8-12 two drops, 8-12 three drops, and 0-4 four drops, and you will most likely have more creatures than burn spells. If nothing too serious goes wrong, this deck is known to win on either turn five or turn 6.


Dark Gruul
Dark Gruul is essentially Classic Gruul, with a much different land base, and a few different cards that are black, and that are splashed in to the already established red-green deck. Your land base is going to need to have a lot of more non-basic pain, dual, and tribal lands that can tap for two colors to maintain consistency. Black is often splashed for cards like Bitterblossom to keep the deck alive in the late-game, cards like Shriekmaw, Terror, Damnation, Nameless Inversion and Deathmark to take care of the bigger beaters in the format, Thoughtseize, Stupor, and Funeral Charm to control of of the combo decks in the format, or, whatever you think your deck needs. You should try to maintain the same basic skeleton as a Classic Gruul deck, but feel free to include more black cards if you deem it necessary. The most important thing to remember is that you need your landbase to match your deck accordingly, or it won't have consistency, and you will often be color-screwed (not having the appropriate lands to tap for the appropriate color at the appropriate time). A thread that focuses on the development of Dark Gruul can be found here: Dark Gruul Archetype.

Warrior Gruul
A sub-theme of Classic Gruul focuses on the tribe of Warriors, and sometimes, a sub-sub theme, Elves. Most of the better, more competetive cards played in Red Deck Wins, or Classic Gruul are already Warriors or Elves, and this deck focuses even more on that idea and tribe. You want to stick to most of the same cards used in Classic Gruul, but also use cards that help the tribe specifically to your advantage. Classic Gruul can either benefit, or cause detriment to the deck by splashing the "Elf Warriors" tribal theme, but it generally means that you'll have more creatures and less burn. This thread will discuss the Warrior aspect to Classic Gruul decks, but there is also a thread focusing on the Warriors tribe, that can be found here if you have any other Warrior specific questions: Warrior Archetype.[/indent][/INDENT]

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Card Choices


[INDENT][indent]For the most part, the majority of the "best" or, most played and most competetive cards are played in all versions of this archetype, but there are some cards that work well in one type, not well in another, and some that are used exclusively to one deck, and not the others. Some of these card choices are obvious, but some need a bit more explanation, and that's what I'll provide for you in this section. For your convenience, any card that is a "Warrior" has an (*) next to it. Remember, these are only the most played and most competitive cards. You don't have to only run these if you cannot afford all of them. There are always budget alternatives.
[/indent]

[indent]
Land
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Lands


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Karplusan Forests - A potent mana fixer that is worth the painful life loss.
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Fire-Lit Thicket - After you have this in play with a land that taps for either or , both of those lands essentially become dual lands. The only problem is that this does not work the best with one-cost cards. Do not play it turn one.
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Horizon Canopy - What's this you say? This is a GW land! Well, yes, it is, but the drawing ability of the land is so good, it doesn't hurt to run it. Whenever you're drawing too many lands, sac this, draw something better, and win. Taking pain every once in a while for isn't that bad.
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Grove of the Burnwillows - While some people do like this card, I definitely do not. It does tap for and without hurting you, but it slows down your main goal: reducing your opponent's life to zero! Only use this if you're desperate, or if you're running Kavu Predator.
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Gemstone Mine - Taps for whatever you want, for three turns. Because this deck is very fast, it will not usually matter too much. Great synergy with Reflecting Pool.
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Reflecting Pool - A nice card that can become a dual land after you have lands in play that tap for and . Do not play it turn one.
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Pendelhaven - A better version of the Forest. Depending on the number of 1/1's in your deck, you should run one-two of these.
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Treetop Village - A very good man-land. This is especially good when you're coming back from a board sweep, or when you have no creatures in your hand. This is hard to kill, and very effective. The only downside is that it comes into play tapped. Be weary of that, it can screw up your tempo for the rest of the game.
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Ghitu Encampment - A bad version of Treetop Village. If you're going to run man-lands, run Treetop Village. Don't run this. Never run both.
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Mutavault - A very cheap and unique man-land. The only problem is that it taps for colorless. If your manabase can handle it, play it. If it can't, don't.
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Mountain - Self Explanatory
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Forest - Self Explanatory
Creatures
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1 Drops


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Greater Gargadon - Suspending this on turn one can be a great play. It synergizes with Countryside Crusher quite well. Whenever your creatures are about to die, you can sacrifice them to Gargadon, and make it come into play faster.
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Llanowar Elves - The good ol' elves. Makes three-drops come into play on turn two. Can accelerate you when you need the mana, and attack when you don't.
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Magus of the Scroll - Not the greatest choice as a one-drop, but definitely very good and very playable. Late game when you only have one-two cards in your hand, this can turn into a burn machine and win you the game.
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Martyr of Ashes - A one drop that can become a wrath of god effect if things get a little too hot? I'll take it. Very good in Red Deck Wins where your creature count is low. Not so great in Classic Gruul where most of your creatures will die along with it.
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Mogg Fanatic - One of the best red one-drops ever printed. Definitely the best in Type 2. Run four of these.
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Tattermunge Maniac* - The Jackel Pup of Type 2. These are very good, and easy to play on turn one.
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2 Drops


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Blood Knight - This planeshifted version of Silver and White Knight is great against a number of decks running white, and it's first strike ability does wonders against weenie aggro decks, or decks such as Faeries. Often a SB option, but good enough for the main deck.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bramblewood Paragon* - This card makes your warriors huge! If you keep this in play long enough, your trampling warrios should win in no-time. An auto-include if you're splashing the Warriors theme.
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Keldon Marauders* - Dies very quickly, so it's hard to count this as a creature, but it is always two damage, kill a creature, and can be good for five damage if they decide not to block. Either way, this card is great.
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Mogg War Marshal* - Great in red deck wins. Gets you two creatures, both easy to sacrifice to Greater Gargadon. Run it if you run Greater Gargadon, otherwise, do not.
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Rahda, Heir to Keld* - A solid choice for splashing the tribal Warriors. Allows you to play burn spells for free whenever she attacks, or can just be a 2/2 Llanowar Elves when you need the green mana.
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Tarmogoyf - The most played creature in the entire game of Magic the Gathering. It goes for $50.00 for a reason, folks. Play four, and win.
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3 Drops


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Boggart Ram-Bang* - Great card for Classic Gruul. Three of any mana for a 3/3 haster is great, the wither effect just makes it rediculous. Team it up with burn and your opponent's creatures will be dropping like flies. Run 3-4 of this.
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Call of the Herd - What? This isn't a creature! Well, technically you're right, but when you read the card, you'll find out that it counts for two creatures. Call of the Herd is a great three drop to make an efficient 3/3, and can be a great four drop late in the game to make another.
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Countryside Crusher* - Red Deck Wins needs very few lands to work efficiently, so once you get this guy out on turn three, his ability becomes insanely useful. While he's alive, you'll only be drawing more burn spells and creatures, and he'll only get bigger for each land that you dispose of. If you run him, run four.
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Fulminator Mage - Beats and Land Destruction all rolled into one. 'Nuff said.
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Giantbaiting - Works very well if you're really trying hard to rush the opponent. With Paragon in play, it becomes a 5/5, with the Liege in play, the token is a 7/7, and with the Battle-Axe, it can be a 9-8. D-a-y-u-m.
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Inner-Flame Acolyte - Some say this is the new Giant Solifuge. It's definitely nowhere near as good, but it is playable. Most likely a budget card, this Acolyte can work well in Red Deck Wins and Classic Gruul.
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Kitchen Finks - Most likely a budget card, this is an efficient three-drop that gains life, and has to die twice (more or less).
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Troll Ascetic - Very, very, hard to kill. Getting this on turn two after Llanowar Elves can sometimes be game over for opposing decks.
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4 Drops


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Boartusk Liege - Pretty good in Classic Gruul with all of the multi-color cards. This can lead to a turn four win quite easily.
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Chameleon Colossuss* - Works well in Classic Gruul. An amazing creature that is hard to kill, and that has a very nice ability that can win the game on its own.
Burn and Pump
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1 Drops


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Shard Volley - The new Lightning Bolt, but much worse. This is used in Red Deck Wins, because lands really don't mean much. Don't run it in Classic Gruul.
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Shock - If you don't run Tarmogoyf, run this. If you do, see below.
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Tarfire - If you do run Tarmogoyf, run this. If you don't, see below. It's Tribal card type gives da 'Goyf +1/+1 more when played than the regular Shock.
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2 Drops


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Incinerate - Probably the best burn spell in Standard right now. Auto four-of in all RG Aggro decks.
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Lash Out - This card is tricky. It has a great plus to it, as well as a minus. The plus is that it can deal 6 damage total for The minus is that it can only target creatures, and you can't rely on it to win the game. This is a very good burn spell if you have the space to run it, but you may find yourself stuck if they don't have any creatures in play.
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3 Drops


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Browbeat - This card has been debated for a very long time. Is it good? Is it bad? Well, to be honest, it's pretty terrible in every deck but one. Red Deck Wins. You'll be dealing so much damage to them, the 5 damage will probably be enough to finish them off, so they'll have to choose "draw three cards." Of course, this only means you'll draw three more burn spells. This card wins games in Red Deck Wins. DON'T RUN IT OTHERWISE.
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Rift Bolt - Another great burn spell. Suspend it for a cheap to kill something the turn later, or if you need to deal the damage now for the win, you can play it for . A great burn spell.
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Flame Javelin - The new Char for Red Deck Wins. For a measly , you can deal 4 damage to any target you choose, without taking the regular pain! This is a staple four-of in RDW, and depending on your land base, can be a staple in Classic Gruul.
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4 Drops


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Stonewood Invocation - If anything in a Classic Gruul deck costs above four mana, it should be winning you the game. This is exactly what Stonewood does. Play this surprising pump spell on an unblocked creature, and win. Also, if your opponent is about to destroy your creature before combat damage is dealt, play Stonewood in response, rendering their kill spell useless. Good as a 2-3 of in Classic Gruul.
Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers
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Artifacts


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Loxodon Warhammer - One of the better equiptments in standard, this card can win you the game by itself. The only problem is that it will slow you down a lot if you drop it turn three. I prefer something like this in the sideboard, but if you're deck can handle playing it turn three, go ahead and use it in the main deck.
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Obsidian Battle-Axe* - An amazing equiptment if you're focusing on the Warriors sub-theme of Classic Gruul. Giving all of your creatures haste whenever they come into play makes your deck very fast, and the +2/+1 effect makes it even more powerful. Run 2-4 if you're focusing on a Warriors sub-theme.
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Enchantments


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None - If you have a suggestion for this section, please or PM it to me, and I'd be glad to add it.
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Planeswalkers


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Chandra Nalaar - The one and only red planeswalker. It costs and is very slow, and I wouldn't suggest playing it unless you had to for budget reasons. However, if you do play it, and it is not disturbed, you can pull out the final move for the win.
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Garruk Wildspeaker - The one and only green planeswalker. I reckon' da best 'walker 'round these parts. Garruk is amazing. Make continuous tokens to build up an army, untap your lands to play more and more spells, or give your army the unstoppable force of an Overrun, and win like that. Endless possibilities with this card, and if your deck isn't already too four-cost heavy, you should run it.
Sideboard Options
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Sideboard Options


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Cloudthresher - A bit mana heavy, but a house card when you get it into play. Completely wipes out faeries too. Evoking it is a Wrath of God for faeries, and two damage dealt to them. Good against Faeries, but mana-heavy.
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Cryoclasm - Three costing land destruction and burn? Sign me up. Great against any deck running a lot of basic Islands or Plains.
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Dragon's Claw - A bit of a weird card that you probably will not use unless you're playing Red Deck Wins, and more than 75% of the decks you play are Red Deck Wins too. If this is the case, this card will probably give you the upper hand in all of those matchups. Good against red-based burn decks.
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Everlasting Torment - Sick of TurboFog? No longer, my friends. No longer. As long as this stays in play you'll be dealing damage until the cows come home. Good against decks that involve lots of lifegain, or damage prevention.
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Firespout - A Wrath of God! If you're playing Faeries, you can turn it into a Plague Wind. Good against lots of weenie aggro, and faeries.
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Krosan Grip - One of the best utility cards for destroying artifacts and enchantments in . Good against deck that run a lot of artifacts and enchantments!
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Magus of the Moon - This. Card. Is. Under. Rated. And. Is. Nuts. Against Faeries, Doran, and any deck that runs very few basic lands, it's a game winner. Those decks simply cannot kill it, and cannot play ANY of their spells until it dies. All you have to do next is draw more creatures and burn and finish them off (if they don't forefeit first). Good against Faeries, Doran, and any deck that runs very few basic lands.
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Manabarbs - Will deal damage to them every turn! This will finish them off even faster, and is a great addition to your sideboard.
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Pithing Needle - The ultimate sideboard card. Stops man-lands, Planeswalkers, Mirror Entity, Chameleon Colossuss, etc, etc... It never hurts having this in your sideboard.
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Sudden Shock - Great against permission-controlling decks. It has split second, and cannot be countered.
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Sulfur Elemental - This card can really stop your opponent from pulling off the Reveillark combo (Mirror Entity dies), and it usually clears the opposing board against decks like White Weenie. It's also uncounterable, and can be a great card against permission control.
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Sulfurous Blast - Another great Wrath of God effect. Only, this deals damage to the opponent (and less importantly, you) as well! Good against decks aggro decks, especially those which play smaller creatures.
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Threaten - Worried about your opponent's big finishers that your burn can't kill? No worries. With Threaten, you can snatch that fattie and use it to attack for yourself! This can often win the game when least suspected. This also has great syngery with Greater Gargadon. Steal their creature, attack with it, then sacrifice it to Gargadon to kill it! It becomes a kill spell as well!
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Tormod's Crypt - Completely destroys graveyard based decks for absolutely nothing.
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Vexing Shusher - New card from Shadowmoor. Depending on how many permission control decks become popular, this card may just be great. It's untested, though, so I'm really not sure. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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Decklists



[indent][indent]Red Deck Wins - Decklists
Red Deck Loses - Decklists
Classic Gruul - Decklists
Banksy, 1st Place - Non-Existent Tournament
[deck="Gruul Beats" by Banksy]// Land
4 *Karplusan Forest
3 *Fire-Lit Thicket
4 *Gemstone Mine
1 *Pendelhaven
10 *Mountain

// Creatures
4 *Mogg Fanatic
4 *Tattermunge Maniac
4 *Keldon Marauders
4 *Bramblewood Paragon
4 *Boggart Ram-Gang
3 *Countryside Crusher

// Other Spells
4 *Incinerate
4 *Giantbaiting
4 *Flame Javelin
3 *Stonewood Invocation

// Sideboard (Too Big)
4 *Fulminator Mage
3 *Vexing Shusher
2 *Everlasting Torment
3 *Manabarbs
1 *Magus of the Moon
3 *Threaten
3 *Krosan Grip
3 *Dragon's Claw[/deck]

Dark Gruul - Decklists
Banksy, 1st Place - Non-Existent Tournament
[deck="Dark Gruul" by Banksy]// Land - 23
4* Karplusan Forest
3* Fire-Lit Thicket
4* Gemstone Mine
4* Auntie's Hovel
3* Reflecting Pool
1* Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1* Pendelhaven
3* Mountain

// Creatures - 19
4* Mogg Fanatic
4* Keldon Marauders
4* Tarmogoyf
4* Kitchen Finks
3* Countryside Crusher

// Other Spells (18)
3* Tarfire
4* Incinerate
4* Bitterblossom
3* Rift Bolt
4* Flame Javelin

// Sideboard (15)
4* Dragon's Claw
4* Terror
2* Vexing Shusher
3* Manabarbs
2 *Everlasting Torment[/deck]

Warrior Gruul - Decklists[/indent][/indent]

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Match Up Results


[INDENT][INDENT]*This sections is currently being updated for your benefit.*[/INDENT][/INDENT]

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RG Aggro FAQ



[INDENT][INDENT]*This sections is currently being updated for your benefit.*[/INDENT][/INDENT]

IMAGE(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/OMFGPIE/RG_Divider.gif)



[indent][indent]If you think these decklists or card choices are out of date, or if you are the originator of one of the decklists and wish for it to be updated or removed, please either PM me or write a post to that effect.[/indent][/indent]

Special Thanks to...


[indent][indent][color=black]My friend, Dawid, or "Hodoku", for the amazing dividers.
Golddmaster, Atmapalazzo, Runk & WWWackyson, for their previous contributions to the RG Aggro Archetype.
iRebel, for the amazing thread template.
SGTDfromMA, for correcting my spelling and grammatical errors.
Benjerman, for testing decklists with me.
Volacide, for the snazzy banner.
[/color][/indent][/indent]
Reserved.

Decklist

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karplusan+Forest" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Karplusan+Forest">Karplusan Forest</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fire-Lit+Thicket" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Fire-Lit+Thicket">Fire-Lit Thicket</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone+Mine" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Gemstone+Mine">Gemstone Mine</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reflecting+Pool" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Reflecting+Pool">Reflecting Pool</a>
1 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pendelhaven" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Pendelhaven">Pendelhaven</a>
5 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mountain" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mountain">Mountain</a>


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tattermunge+Maniac" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tattermunge+Maniac">Tattermunge Maniac</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mogg+Fanatic" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mogg+Fanatic">Mogg Fanatic</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tarmogoyf">Tarmogoyf</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Keldon+Marauders" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Keldon+Marauders">Keldon Marauders</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus+of+the+Moon" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Magus+of+the+Moon">Magus of the Moon</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boggart+Ram-Gang" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Boggart+Ram-Gang">Boggart Ram-Gang</a>


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarfire" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tarfire">Tarfire</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Incinerate" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Incinerate">Incinerate</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rift+Bolt" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Rift+Bolt">Rift Bolt</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame+Javelin" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flame+Javelin">Flame Javelin</a>


2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vexing+Shusher" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Vexing+Shusher">Vexing Shusher</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan+Grip" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Krosan+Grip">Krosan Grip</a>
1 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus+of+the+Moon" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Magus+of+the+Moon">Magus of the Moon</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Firespout" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Firespout">Firespout</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%27s+Claw" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Dragon%27s+Claw">Dragon's Claw</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Threaten" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Threaten">Threaten</a>
I dont think this is an archetype quite yet. Besides someone else already made the Pre-archetype for this aggro.
This thread is meant to be an update on the current Red Deck Wins thread and the to-be successful Gruul Deck, condensing the two threads into one because they are very much alike.

In the Decks to Beat maintenance thread we've been discussing how to condense the archetypes and eliminate those decks that really are not archetypes or Decks to Beat. This is my contribution: RG Aggro.

If everyone wants me to include Warriors as well, that is possible. However, I feel that they are not as good as Classic Gruul and the infamous Red Deck Wins.
I dont think this is an archetype quite yet. Besides someone else already made the Pre-archetype for this aggro.

this

you actually need the permission of an FL (I think) to put an archetype tag in your thread. If you indeed have the permission then I will fully endorse this service.
You don't think this is an archetype yet? How so? Red Deck Wins is constantly winning tournaments, and with the addition of Shadowmoor cards, it's bound to stay as an archetype.

Gruul already has a Pre-Archetype? If it does, I haven't seen it.

I don't see how combining these two (or three, depending if I add Warriors or not) decks under one archetype would be a bad idea...
Karplusan Wolverine is a not a bad choice for a one drop. Although the maniac and fanatic are better. Also Raging goblin can work in this deck.

Also the red cohort might be interesting in a monored version.
Karplusan Wolverine is a not a bad choice for a one drop. Although the maniac and fanatic are better. Also Raging goblin can work in this deck.

Also the red cohort might be interesting in a monored version.

Kaplusan Wolverine is so bad that I had to look it up to remember what it does, and Raging Goblin isn't that great either. Both are worse than the primary 1-drops this deck can run: Fanatic, Maniac, Magus, Elves, etc.
For a sideboard enchantment, how about Raking Canopy? It's not the best, but it wreaks havoc against Fae.
Already an easy matchup, and not really even that good.
Gruul already has a Pre-Archetype? If it does, I haven't seen it

It does indeed. I posted it earlier today, under the title "[Pre-Archetype] Revamped Gruul Aggro (w/ shadowmoor)". However, I was unaware of this:

you actually need the permission of an FL (I think) to put an archetype tag in your thread.

If true, I will refrain from updating that thread, and simply post observations of either matchups or card choices on this one. However, if it was indeed a legal thread, I fully intend to update it as a direct descendant of gruul aggro, without the cut into RDW or warriors, since I have no real experience with the former and don't spend enough time with the latter.
I don't think that this thread should include RDW. RDW already has its own thread. RDW is not even really an aggro deck, its just that aggro is the only type of deck out of the types that it comes closest to.

RDW is just a heavy burn deck that plays a few creatures. Some would say I just described RDL, but if you look at the decks that have been doing well in tournaments lately you would see my point. If anything those two decks(RDW and RDL) should be merged.

*This should be the thread for RG Aggro, it looks the best(IMO) and has good write-ups on card selection.
You don't think this is an archetype yet? How so? Red Deck Wins is constantly winning tournaments, and with the addition of Shadowmoor cards, it's bound to stay as an archetype.

Gruul already has a Pre-Archetype? If it does, I haven't seen it.

I don't see how combining these two (or three, depending if I add Warriors or not) decks under one archetype would be a bad idea...

yes this is an archetype the question is this the legal gruul archetype? did you ask permission to those above us the FL (forum leads) to put a tag ([archetype]) in this thread if you did then, again I will say it , I fully endorse this thread

Because this things (putting "archetype" tags) has been a cause if discussion among the standard forums becuase lots of posters put "archetype" in their opening remarks but has shown no results or asked permission to put one.
I don't think that this thread should include RDW. RDW already has its own thread. RDW is not even really an aggro deck, its just that aggro is the only type of deck out of the types that it comes closest to.

RDW is just a heavy burn deck that plays a few creatures. Some would say I just described RDL, but if you look at the decks that have been doing well in tournaments lately you would see my point. If anything those two decks(RDW and RDL) should be merged.

I have to disagree with you. Before, I thought the same thing, and planned on making a GR Aggro (Gruul and Warriors) thread without the Red Deck Wins.

However, I really noticed that RDW is a pretty basic deck idea. You run some creatures and burn, or no creatures, and burn. The good burn spells are known universally, there really isn't any discussion about which burn spells are good and which are bad. There's no need to discuss it because it's obvious. There's no need to experiment with anything new because A)Nothing new is experiment-worthy, and B)The deck is already winning without the new experimental stuff. The RDW decklists are pretty much set it stone, and there's not much to discuss about them. All there is to discuss is that "here is a decklist, play this." The last few pages of the thread are all about BR and GR aggro anyway. Instead of having a thread for GR Warriors that will include almost all of the same cards as Classic Gruul, having a RDW thread that will only discuss new experimental things (*Classic Gruul*), and having a Classic Gruul thread, let's roll it all into one, the GR Aggro Archetype, because, we're all more or less playing and talking about very similar decks. Beat face, burn face, win.
if your keen you can use this banner i made up for new gruul

IMAGE(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5209/burningtobeatyoutt4.jpg)
That pic is fecking sweet
Awesome banksy.... I was actually making an R/G deck already.... With mostly shadowmoor stuff.... Giant Baiting has been an amazing card... especially with the r/g liege...(12 damage for 3 mana?... yes please..)
if your keen you can use this banner i made up for new gruul

IMAGE(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5209/burningtobeatyoutt4.jpg)

Thanks for the offer, but I'm currently working on one myself. Looks great.

That pic is fecking sweet

Please don't spam this thread with mindlessness like that. If you like the picture so much, go post a comment on the Banner Request thread or contact Firearm yourself. Thanks!

Awesome banksy.... I was actually making an R/G deck already.... With mostly shadowmoor stuff.... Giant Baiting has been an amazing card... especially with the r/g liege...(12 damage for 3 mana?... yes please..)

Hey Ben! Guess we've both moved on from MBA, eh? Giantbaiting, I assume is what you mean. It seems like a fine card, I'll add it to the card selection section. Thanks for the suggestion!
Hey Ben! Guess we've both moved on from MBA, eh? Giantbaiting, I assume is what you mean. It seems like a fine card, I'll add it to the card selection section. Thanks for the suggestion!

Yeah... MBA was fun... Then i moved to MBRA for a while... But now i think i'm going back to Gruul.... I could post a shadowmoor standard deck list if you want... it abuses the liege... a lot...
Oh and in testing, it can win on turn 4 or 5 most of the time(when you aren't mana flooded/screwed)
Sweet as Banks,

here is the list i am currently testing at the moment,NB:still in very early stages and is a VERY ROUGH draft but i played Gruul throughout all of RAV/TSP and have been playing RDW ever since RAV left, (ive only been playing since RAV so G/R is basically all ive played)

anywho to the list,

Old School Gruul (OSG);

Land (21)
4xKarplusan Forest
4xFirelit Thicket
13xMountain

Critters (23)
4xTattermunge Maniac
4xMogg Fanatic
4xKeldon Marauders
4xTarmogoyf
4xBoggart Ram-Gang
3xMurderous Redcap

Other Spells (16)
4xTarfire
4xIncinerate
4xFlame Javelin
4xRift Bolt/Shard Volley

couple of points,

no man-lands yet, i need to test the decks base and resiliance before i even think of adding tap lands of colourless mana to the mix, however i have played about 9 games with it so far and havent had a problem casting anything so for the mean time its sweet the way it is, especially as i like to test with the most stable mana base possible

creatures are working really well at the moment , not 100% sure on the redcap, but i havent had a problem casting it and it works in really with the core concept of the deck, the rest are all self explanitory

16 burn spells seem to be a good mix at the moment , any more and you tend to draw handfulls of burn, which is ok but the critters really need to get your opponent down to about 10 by the 3rd turn and then just burn face, which it does really well,

i think that this deck is going to be a real competitor for the regionals/nationals season and i am going to be a real advocate of it. i really dont think that RDW/RDL variants are going to be viable options with the amount of lifegain

constructive comments will be really appreciated, e.g "why this choice over this?", and if you are going to put comments like "this deck is terrible"-please put reasoning to your argument otherwise its just spam, this is a development thread,

so what does everyone think?
Do you think the lack of Garruk is a hinderance to this deck? After all, wouldn't it be possible to simply push in some more forests in place of mountains considering the flexible costs of a number of your cards? After all, that'd give you the lategame overrun ability, and it'd also allow for chameleon colossus, which I've found to be exemplary as a two-of. However, my deck DOES run less burn than yours, so you may not need such a manahungry finisher, and thus the heavy red basis of your deck is more stable. Thoughts? Also: Why no reflecting pools?
Do you think the lack of Garruk is a hinderance to this deck? After all, wouldn't it be possible to simply push in some more forests in place of mountains considering the flexible costs of a number of your cards? After all, that'd give you the lategame overrun ability, and it'd also allow for chameleon colossus, which I've found to be exemplary as a two-of. However, my deck DOES run less burn than yours, so you may not need such a manahungry finisher, and thus the heavy red basis of your deck is more stable. Thoughts? Also: Why no reflecting pools?

firstly the 3x 4cc spot which is currently being occupied by murederous redcap is by no way fixed and i can see it being replaces as i feel there may be better cards for that slot, however, testing will tell. in regards to garruk, i look at the decks key aim, being: get in for early beats to single digits and burn the rest of the way. for this reason every card in this deck focuses on this goal, there was an article written by Flores (or maybe chapin) which discussed the idea that an aggro deck shouldnt have a back up plan. i believe garruk is going to do two things to the deck, make it more reactive, and less pro active by making me play cards that dont help me,in essence while he is amazing, i dont see him fitting in with this deck a.k.a doing damage NOW. the other problem is that he is double green, and while this is not neccesarily a problem, i do have a big problem with losing consistancy, a mana base supporting a turn four garruk MAY cause me to lose key plays early, get flodded with green, or not cast my javelin on turn three (or 4 for that matter) - but like i said, testing will tell and i will test garruk, and like you said i dont need such a mana hungry finsisher/overrun ablitly as i do have more burn,

and as to why no reflecting pools, my answer is simple, the deck simply does not need them, at any given time i need to be able to produce triple red and one green, if i had reflecting pools, for it to do what i want to do, i would already have to have another green source, so accordingly i dont play them, especially as they may create problematic situations e.g drawing 2 as my only lands, or having one and a fire-lit thicket, in this deck, mountains are just infinately better, and as you can see, this mana base is watertight at the moment, i have not had a single problem with it, but as i said, i generally test with the most reliable mana base possible,
Sweet as Banks,

here is the list i am currently testing at the moment,NB:still in very early stages and is a VERY ROUGH draft but i played Gruul throughout all of RAV/TSP and have been playing RDW ever since RAV left, (ive only been playing since RAV so G/R is basically all ive played)

anywho to the list,

Old School Gruul (OSG);

Land (21)
4xKarplusan Forest
4xFirelit Thicket
13xMountain
-3 Mountain
+1 Pendelhaven
+3 Treetop Village


Critters (23)
4xTattermunge Maniac
4xMogg Fanatic
4xKeldon Marauders
4xTarmogoyf
4xBoggart Ram-Gang
3xMurderous Redcap
-3 Redcap
+2 Whatever


Other Spells (16)
4xTarfire
4xIncinerate
4xFlame Javelin
4xRift Bolt/Shard Volley
Rift Bolt > Shard Volley

couple of points,

no man-lands yet, i need to test the decks base and resiliance before i even think of adding tap lands of colourless mana to the mix, however i have played about 9 games with it so far and havent had a problem casting anything so for the mean time its sweet the way it is, especially as i like to test with the most stable mana base possible

creatures are working really well at the moment , not 100% sure on the redcap, but i havent had a problem casting it and it works in really with the core concept of the deck, the rest are all self explanitory

Redcap is absolutely unplayable. -IF- there are 4cc cards in Gruul, they should be played only if they're good enough to win the game. Stuff like Stonewood Invocation, Garruk, Boartusk Liege. As Mr_Indigo said on another thread, "Redcap is what I'd like a 2-drop to be. -MAYBE- a 3-drop. As a 4-drop, it's absolutely unplayable." What he said is right. While the Redcap -CAN- create 2-for-1 situations, or burn them for 2, you'll be much happier running... well... anything.

16 burn spells seem to be a good mix at the moment , any more and you tend to draw handfulls of burn, which is ok but the critters really need to get your opponent down to about 10 by the 3rd turn and then just burn face, which it does really well,

Absolutely right. I've found 14 burn spells to work well for me, but if you can fit in 16, by all means do. Over 16 means that you should really consider turning it into Red Deck Wins with 24+ burn spells.

i think that this deck is going to be a real competitor for the regionals/nationals season and i am going to be a real advocate of it. i really dont think that RDW/RDL variants are going to be viable options with the amount of lifegain

I agree with you and look forward to your thoughtful and intelligent (I can already tell they will be, ;)) posts here! Gruul Beats is definitely back.
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Do you think the lack of Garruk is a hinderance to this deck? After all, wouldn't it be possible to simply push in some more forests in place of mountains considering the flexible costs of a number of your cards? After all, that'd give you the lategame overrun ability, and it'd also allow for chameleon colossus, which I've found to be exemplary as a two-of. However, my deck DOES run less burn than yours, so you may not need such a manahungry finisher, and thus the heavy red basis of your deck is more stable. Thoughts? Also: Why no reflecting pools?

Reflecting Pool is very good. I recommend running it as a 3-of.

Garruk is very good, but needs to be tested in this deck to see if we have better options as a 4cc slot. Burn is also very good. It really depends on the meta / card preference you choose.
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firstly the 3x 4cc spot which is currently being occupied by murederous redcap is by no way fixed and i can see it being replaces as i feel there may be better cards for that slot, however, testing will tell. in regards to garruk, i look at the decks key aim, being: get in for early beats to single digits and burn the rest of the way. for this reason every card in this deck focuses on this goal, there was an article written by Flores (or maybe chapin) which discussed the idea that an aggro deck shouldnt have a back up plan. i believe garruk is going to do two things to the deck, make it more reactive, and less pro active by making me play cards that dont help me,in essence while he is amazing, i dont see him fitting in with this deck a.k.a doing damage NOW.

Very, very good point. You're probably right, but I think Garruk needs to be tested thoroughly before we can disregard him so easily.

the other problem is that he is double green, and while this is not neccesarily a problem, i do have a big problem with losing consistancy, a mana base supporting a turn four garruk MAY cause me to lose key plays early, get flodded with green, or not cast my javelin on turn three (or 4 for that matter) - but like i said, testing will tell and i will test garruk, and like you said i dont need such a mana hungry finsisher/overrun ablitly as i do have more burn,

Well, I don't really have too much of a problem with the double green. The only hard-to-cast spell in the deck is Flame Javelin, which is why your deck should be base red, but other than that, running " for " lands shouldn't be a problem because most other spells are .

and as to why no reflecting pools, my answer is simple, the deck simply does not need them, at any given time i need to be able to produce triple red and one green, if i had reflecting pools, for it to do what i want to do, i would already have to have another green source, so accordingly i dont play them, especially as they may create problematic situations e.g drawing 2 as my only lands, or having one and a fire-lit thicket, in this deck, mountains are just infinately better, and as you can see, this mana base is watertight at the moment, i have not had a single problem with it, but as i said, i generally test with the most reliable mana base possible,

I disagree a little bit here, but I do think running an "as consistent as possible" land base is a good idea to start off. I've already moved onto 3x Reflecting Pool and 3x Treetop Village, because I already have experience playing with them in sligh. Eventually, we'll find the right base. My list looks very similar to yours, Firearm, so we can work together on that, :D.
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Thanks for all of the great insight! This archetype is off to a great start, and most o the cards havent even been released yet, .
Ok... i have a decklist now...
completely different from before, after talking with banksy about card choices...
but i have the same problem...
I need to cut one card...
anyways here's the list...
this

you actually need the permission of an FL (I think) to put an archetype tag in your thread. If you indeed have the permission then I will fully endorse this service.

You don't need permission to put the tag on, you just need permission to be on the official list... at least thats how i remember it from when i started my DtB... Either way, Banksy you probably want to talk to Atma about this...
I have to disagree with you. Before, I thought the same thing, and planned on making a GR Aggro (Gruul and Warriors) thread without the Red Deck Wins.

However, I really noticed that RDW is a pretty basic deck idea. You run some creatures and burn, or no creatures, and burn. The good burn spells are known universally, there really isn't any discussion about which burn spells are good and which are bad. There's no need to discuss it because it's obvious. There's no need to experiment with anything new because A)Nothing new is experiment-worthy, and B)The deck is already winning without the new experimental stuff. The RDW decklists are pretty much set it stone, and there's not much to discuss about them. All there is to discuss is that "here is a decklist, play this." The last few pages of the thread are all about BR and GR aggro anyway. Instead of having a thread for GR Warriors that will include almost all of the same cards as Classic Gruul, having a RDW thread that will only discuss new experimental things (*Classic Gruul*), and having a Classic Gruul thread, let's roll it all into one, the GR Aggro Archetype, because, we're all more or less playing and talking about very similar decks. Beat face, burn face, win.

it's almost insulting that you think that the RDW decklist is set in stone. others and i have spent many hours working on those lists, and while new cards have decreased diversity due to how awesome they are, this doesn't mean that experimentation isn't good. remember when it used to be a rule to have 3+ keldon megaliths? that turned out to be a dud. the metagame is shifting all of the time, and now that there's a new set coming out, i doubt that we will abandon talking about new ways to approach the deck because "it's 100% perfect".

i know you want people to visit your thread because it makes you feel cool, but we have a RDW thread, and i think if anyone wanted to talk about it they would talk about it there. i'm 100% positive that RDW players don't want their conversations bundled with RG Warriors, or decks running llanowar elves and troll ascetic.

also, isn't there a Warriors thread also? why are you combining a bunch of different decks into one thread?
it's almost insulting that you think that the RDW decklist is set in stone. others and i have spent many hours working on those lists, and while new cards have decreased diversity due to how awesome they are, this doesn't mean that experimentation isn't good. remember when it used to be a rule to have 3+ keldon megaliths? that turned out to be a dud. the metagame is shifting all of the time, and now that there's a new set coming out, i doubt that we will abandon talking about new ways to approach the deck because "it's 100% perfect".

i know you want people to visit your thread because it makes you feel cool, but we have a RDW thread, and i think if anyone wanted to talk about it they would talk about it there. i'm 100% positive that RDW players don't want their conversations bundled with RG Warriors, or decks running llanowar elves and troll ascetic.

also, isn't there a Warriors thread also? why are you combining a bunch of different decks into one thread?

This is what I said:
However, I really noticed that RDW is a pretty basic deck idea. You run some creatures and burn, or no creatures, and burn.

Is this not correct? The deck is usually 20+ burn spells and 16- creatures, or very little creatures and around 32+ burn spells. At least, the most successful builds that I've seen have been either one or the other.

The good burn spells are known universally, there really isn't any discussion about which burn spells are good and which are bad. There's no need to discuss it because it's obvious.

I can't see how you can argue with this...

There's no need to experiment with anything new because A)Nothing new is experiment-worthy, and B)The deck is already winning without the new experimental stuff. The RDW decklists are pretty much set it stone, and there's not much to discuss about them. All there is to discuss is that "here is a decklist, play this."

I assume this was a little bit too harsh, and I apologize. However, out of the current card pool in Type 2, I really do not think that any new card is significant enough to take the slot of an already existing card in the deck. The deck uses the best creatures and burn available, and doesn't need anything else. The posts on the thread are becoming more and more R/x Aggro based, and I thought that it would be a good idea to flat-out make a database thread for all RG Aggro, because most of the lists are VERY VERY VERY similar, focusing on - Beat face, burn face, win.

People on the DtB Maintenence thread have been debating how we should re-organize the DtB thread so that there are not 999,999 threads about essentially the same decks floating around, and I thought this could be the answer. I'm sorry if you disagree.

it's almost insulting that you think that the RDW decklist is set in stone. others and i have spent many hours working on those lists, and while new cards have decreased diversity due to how awesome they are, this doesn't mean that experimentation isn't good.

I'm not saying that experimentation isn't good. I'm saying that with the current card pool, there isn't much stuff to experiment with! Enough experimenting has been done, and the deck is moving up to being one of the best decks in the type 2 format!!!

remember when it used to be a rule to have 3+ keldon megaliths? that turned out to be a dud.

Okay, but that really is not something to discuss in an entirely different thread, is it?

the metagame is shifting all of the time, and now that there's a new set coming out, i doubt that we will abandon talking about new ways to approach the deck because "it's 100% perfect".

I'm not and never said it was 100% perfect, and I realize that the meta is constantly changing, but the only thing that came out for RDW was SB matierial! It just happens that that SB material is the same SB material that will be discussed in all RG aggro threads. Should we have 3 threads for 3 groups of people discussing the same cards? I'd rather not and combine all of our ideas together in one thread. Feel free to disagree.

i know you want people to visit your thread because it makes you feel cool,

Nope, not really. I'm trying to solve a problem that has been discussed on the DtB Maintenance thread for quite some time, and the personal attacks don't solve anything.

but we have a RDW thread, and i think if anyone wanted to talk about it they would talk about it there. i'm 100% positive that RDW players don't want their conversations bundled with RG Warriors, or decks running llanowar elves and troll ascetic.

If that really is the case, then the RDW folks will stick to the RDW forum, and this will gradually become a RG Gruul Warriors thread. However, I think that it can all easily be condensed into one. I'm not requiring you to use this thread, I'm just putting it out there for the higher ranked officials on this site to decide what to do with it. If it gets abandoned with all of the other posts, so be it. However, I think that it can be successful. Only time will tell.

also, isn't there a Warriors thread also? why are you combining a bunch of different decks into one thread?

Don't think I need to repeat myself again, see above.
Is this not correct? The deck is usually 20+ burn spells and 16- creatures, or very little creatures and around 32+ burn spells. At least, the most successful builds that I've seen have been either one or the
other.

i think most builds run ~24 creatures and ~15 burn spells. i think you're think of RDL. (which, coincidently, has it's own thread too.)

The good burn spells are known universally, there really isn't any discussion about which burn spells are good and which are bad. There's no need to discuss it because it's obvious.

I can't see how you can argue with this...

if there's no need to discuss it, then why are you on a forum for discussing magic decks? lots of decks are "pretty obvious", so should we combine those threads too? Elves, kithkin, and faeries are pretty obvious, so should we have a "[Pre-Archtype] Tribal" thread?

besides, if RDW was so obvious, why do you have 6 browbeats in your 3 lists, when most smart RDW players are unimpressed with it? in fact, you don't have any pure RDW decks in your lists, just 2RDL and 1 RDW deck with too much burn to be considered RDW.





I assume this was a little bit too harsh, and I apologize. However, out of the current card pool in Type 2, I really do not think that any new card is significant enough to take the slot of an already existing card in the deck. The deck uses the best creatures and burn available, and doesn't need anything else. The posts on the thread are becoming more and more R/x Aggro based, and I thought that it would be a good idea to flat-out make a database thread for all RG Aggro, because most of the lists are VERY VERY VERY similar, focusing on - Beat face, burn face, win.

here are two lists you have:



[deck="Mono Red Burn" by Minoru Takakuwa]Land - 24
4 *Ghitu Encampments
1 *Keldon Megaliths
15 *Mountain
4 *Mutavault

Creatures - 4
4 *Keldon Marauders

Other Spells - 32
4 *Shock
4 *Shard Volley
4 *Incinerate
4 *Lash Out
4 *Sudden Shock
4 *Rift Bolt
4 *Browbeat
4 *Sulfurous Blast

Sideboard - 15
4 *Bottle Gnomes
4 *Cryoclasm
2 *Dragon's Claw
3 *Martyr of Ashes
2 *Mogg Fanatic[/deck]

the only non-land cards that are the same are lashout and incinerate.

This is why we have multiple threads. i don't want to read about chameleon colossus and wren's run vanquishers in my RDW decklist.
People on the DtB Maintenence thread have been debating how we should re-organize the DtB thread so that there are not 999,999 threads about essentially the same decks floating around, and I thought this could be the answer. I'm sorry if you disagree.

there are only two threads in the DtB section that are anywhere near close, and that's Doran, Doran and The Rock. why in the world would be put RG Warriors in the DtB section, or "Classic Gruul", a deck that has not yet seen any results?


I'm not saying that experimentation isn't good. I'm saying that with the current card pool, there isn't much stuff to experiment with! Enough experimenting has been done, and the deck is moving up to being one of the best decks in the type 2 format!!!

decks can come close to optimization during certain times, however, because of the nature of metagame dynamics, there's no way it could ever stay optimal. hence, why we have threads, and why we have discussion.
I'm not and never said it was 100% perfect, and I realize that the meta is constantly changing, but the only thing that came out for RDW was SB matierial! It just happens that that SB material is the same SB material that will be discussed in all RG aggro threads. Should we have 3 threads for 3 groups of people discussing the same cards? I'd rather not and combine all of our ideas together in one thread. Feel free to disagree.

are you talking about shadowmoor? because i think that RDW gets quite a bit of maindeck material from SHM. if you disagree, which is fine, you have not played RDW, looked at any of the last pages in the RDW thread, or seen all of the shadowmoor cards.

Nope, not really. I'm trying to solve a problem that has been discussed on the DtB Maintenance thread for quite some time, and the personal attacks don't solve anything.

it's not a personal attack. it's an observation i'm sure most would find apparent. please look at the DtB forum and find 2 threads that should merge. (other than the rock and doran, doran, which should not be merged, but The Rock should drop down to the standard section.) there are only 14 threads total. you don't even have to scroll down to get to the last thread!
If that really is the case, then the RDW folks will stick to the RDW forum, and this will gradually become a RG Gruul Warriors thread. However, I think that it can all easily be condensed into one. I'm not requiring you to use this thread, I'm just putting it out there for the higher ranked officials on this site to decide what to do with it. If it gets abandoned with all of the other posts, so be it. However, I think that it can be successful. Only time will tell.

that's my point. there's a warrior thread and there's a RDW thread, both of which are doing fine, and probably don't want the other in it. just try it. post a RDW deck in the warrior thread and a warrior deck in the RDW thread. the posters will politely nudge you in the right direction, and everyone will be better off. it's not like more threads are taking up precious internet space. There are only 12 threads for decks in the DtB forum, which is how it should be. Tier 1 decks, and maybe a few good tier 2 decks.

if you want to make a "Gruul" thread, you have that opportunity.
i think most builds run ~24 creatures and ~15 burn spells. i think you're think of RDL. (which, coincidently, has it's own thread too.)

To be honest, I thought I had a clearer view of what RDW was, and I guess I was mistaken to think that it was more like RDL. But, wait... Doesn't this prove my point even more? I see lists on the RDW thread using Call of the Herd and Troll Ascetic. Most of the RG lists on the last few pages look like this:

4x Tattermunge
4x Fanatic
4x Keldon
4x Goyf

4x Tarfire
4x Incinerate
4x Flame Javelin

and other cards that a deck like Gruul would not use. 28 cards, plus another 22 lands that will be rather the same except that Gruul will have more green sources, that leaves around 10 cards difference. More burn, Countryside Crusher, or Greater Gargadon for RDW, More creatures and Pump for Gruul. Would you argue that these two decks are -SO- different?


if there's no need to discuss it, then why are you on a forum for discussing magic decks? lots of decks are "pretty obvious", so should we combine those threads too? Elves, kithkin, and faeries are pretty obvious, so should we have a "[Pre-Archtype] Tribal" thread?

I don't think you could have missed my point any more than you already have. I was saying that selection of "BURN SPELLS" is something that does not need discussion. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that you ask any intelligent magic player what burn spells he's use the most of in an aggro deck that was base red, he'd say: Javelin, Incinerate, Tarfire/Shock, and then some of the lesser burn spells such as Lash Out, Sudden Shock, etc... I have to admit that my picture of RDW was more of what RDL is, and that's why I made this point. I think we all agree that there is not too much discussion going on in the RDL thread, and that's probably why it wasn't bumped as often until just recently.

besides, if RDW was so obvious, why do you have 6 browbeats in your 3 lists, when most smart RDW players are unimpressed with it? in fact, you don't have any pure RDW decks in your lists, just 2RDL and 1 RDW deck with too much burn to be considered RDW.

Again, I never said that RDW was an obvious deck. See above. I have Browbeats listed listed in the decks, because those decks placed rather well, and included Browbeats in their lists. I know these are more RDL decklists, and thats why I posted them. Besides, the proof is in the pudding.


here are two lists you have:

*DECKS HERE*

the only non-land cards that are the same are lashout and incinerate.

This is why we have multiple threads. i don't want to read about chameleon colossus and wren's run vanquishers in my RDW decklist.

I now realize those decklists probably shouldn't be listed in this thread in the first place, and will edit them later. You have a good point about not discussing Chameleon Colossus and Vanquishers.

there are only two threads in the DtB section that are anywhere near close, and that's Doran, Doran and The Rock. why in the world would be put RG Warriors in the DtB section, or "Classic Gruul", a deck that has not yet seen any results?

Again, I was merely trying to organize RG Aggro in a single thread. While Classic Gruul has not yet made any results, it has been testing quite well, and has been getting a LOT of buzz, and I strongly feel that it will grow in popularity after Shadowmoor is officially released.

decks can come close to optimization during certain times, however, because of the nature of metagame dynamics, there's no way it could ever stay optimal. hence, why we have threads, and why we have discussion.

I agree, and I don't think I ever said anything against that statement...

are you talking about shadowmoor? because i think that RDW gets quite a bit of maindeck material from SHM. if you disagree, which is fine, you have not played RDW, looked at any of the last pages in the RDW thread, or seen all of the shadowmoor cards.

Again, I was thinking of RDW as more of a RDL deck. However, if you really think there is a lot of MD material from Shadowmoor going into RDW, I predict Gruul and RDW becoming even closer to eachother than they are now.

it's not a personal attack. it's an observation i'm sure most would find apparent. please look at the DtB forum and find 2 threads that should merge. (other than the rock and doran, doran, which should not be merged, but The Rock should drop down to the standard section.) there are only 14 threads total. you don't even have to scroll down to get to the last thread!

Call it whatever you like, I don't appreciate comments like that. In regards to the DtB, I started this thread before all of the other DtB (below the current) were moved out. It was more clustered (why the debate about organization was going on), and was why I decided to make this. Currently, I don't think any of the current DtB should merge (Except for Rock/Doran, but we've already clarified that). It's no longer a space issue, really. It's that if there are two threads playing more or less the same deck, then it's just bad for both threads if discussion happens on one and not the other.

that's my point. there's a warrior thread and there's a RDW thread, both of which are doing fine, and probably don't want the other in it. just try it. post a RDW deck in the warrior thread and a warrior deck in the RDW thread. the posters will politely nudge you in the right direction, and everyone will be better off. it's not like more threads are taking up precious internet space. There are only 12 threads for decks in the DtB forum, which is how it should be. Tier 1 decks, and maybe a few good tier 2 decks.

That's true currently, but there's a lot of new MD and SB material from Shadowmoor that will most likely push the two decks together. I don't want to be checking back and forth between two threads for information on SB cards to see what each group of people have produced. Condensing eliminates this.
I think I beat you by a day (here) but this is a pretty well put together thread. Also, you need permission before you can use the Pre-Archetype heading. And my list:



4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karplusan+Forest" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Karplusan+Forest">Karplusan Forest</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fire-Lit+Thicket" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Fire-Lit+Thicket">Fire-Lit Thicket</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutavault" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mutavault">Mutavault</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forest" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Forest">Forest</a>
7 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mountain" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mountain">Mountain</a>



4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mogg+Fanatic" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mogg+Fanatic">Mogg Fanatic</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tattermunge+Maniac" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tattermunge+Maniac">Tattermunge Maniac</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Keldon+Marauders" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Keldon+Marauders">Keldon Marauders</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tarmogoyf">Tarmogoyf</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Countryside+Crusher" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Countryside+Crusher">Countryside Crusher</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hungry+Spriggan" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Hungry+Spriggan">Hungry Spriggan</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boggart+Ram-gang" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Boggart+Ram-gang">Boggart Ram-gang</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boartusk+Liege" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Boartusk+Liege">Boartusk Liege</a>



2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obsidian+Battle-Axe" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Obsidian+Battle-Axe">Obsidian Battle-Axe</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Incinerate" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Incinerate">Incinerate</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame+Javelin" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flame+Javelin">Flame Javelin</a>
I had been hoping to read a thread but I seem to have found an argument, strange.
I had been hoping to read a thread but I seem to have found an argument, strange.

That's a good point. DanLucky, if you have anything else to say to me about this thread, you can put it in a PM.

Let's keep discussions here about the development of the deck.

Some good news: Benjerman and I have been doing a lot of testing, and neither of our builds has lost a single game to Faeries. The matchup is strong pre-board, and then after you SB in anti-fae, they don't stand a chance.

After some more testing, and some more testing, I'll write up a Match-Up vs. Faeries for Classic Gruul.

Mirror Match, Reveillark, and Doran Rock match-ups are coming soon after the Faeries!
Hi all,

I have been toying around with a similar idea and I came up with a (IMHO) great build that has a good/great matchup with most decks in the current meta. What do you think? If you have any additions or comments please feel free to post them..

RG Warriors Deck Wins!

Maindeck
4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Bramblewood Paragon
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Boggart Ram-Gang

4x Giant Baiting
4x Incinerate
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Javelin
2x Shard Volley

4x Karplusan Forest
4x Fire-Lit Thicket
3x Reflecting Pool
7x Mountain
4x Forest

Sideboard
3x Naturalize
3x Firespout
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Manabarbs
This is a list I am toying around with. It plays exactly like a Gruul deck, but it has Bramblewood Paragon, so it is more like Warrior Gruul. It looks great, but it needs testing.


2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radha%2C+Heir+to+Keld" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Radha%2C+Heir+to+Keld">Radha, Heir to Keld</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tattermunge+Maniac" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tattermunge+Maniac">NOM-NOM</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bramblewood+Paragon" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Bramblewood+Paragon">Bramblewood Paragon</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boggart+Ram-Gang" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Boggart+Ram-Gang">Boggart Ram-Gang</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mogg+Fanatic" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Mogg+Fanatic">Mogg Fantastic</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Llanowar+Elves" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Llanowar+Elves">Llanowar Elves</a>

2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame+Javelin" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Flame+Javelin">Flame Javelin</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rift+Bolt" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Rift+Bolt">Rift Bolt</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Incinerate" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Incinerate">Incinerate</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shock" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Shock">Shock</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Call+of+the+Herd" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Call+of+the+Herd">Call of the Herd</a>

4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karplusan+Forest" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Karplusan+Forest">Karplusan Forest</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fire-Lit+Thicket" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Fire-Lit+Thicket">Fire-Lit Thicket</a>
2 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone+Mines" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Gemstone+Mines">Gemstone Mines</a>
6 x Mountain
4 x Forest


4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus+of+the+Moon" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Magus+of+the+Moon">Magus of the Moon</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vexing+Shusher" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Vexing+Shusher">Vexing Shusher</a>
4 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Firespout" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Firespout">Firespout</a>
3 x <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan+Grip" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Krosan+Grip">Krosan Grip</a> or <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%27s+Crypt" class="autocard-link" data-image-url="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&amp;name=Tormod%27s+Crypt">Tormod's Crypt</a> (user pref.)
Some of us cannot afford Tarmogoyf, or would prefer to keep there 200 dollars.
What are some good 2-Drop replacements?
Some of us cannot afford Tarmogoyf, or would prefer to keep there 200 dollars.
What are some good 2-Drop replacements?

Keldon Marauders is a great 2-drop, but not exactly a replacement for goyf. Without acess to goyf, I'd probably keep the deck mono-red, as there isn't much else worth splashing for.
On the subject of tarmogoyf replacement, has anyone considered Quirion Dryad? I know she starts off small, but since like every other spell in the deck is red, she'll grow fairly fast (Though Mogg kills her pretty quick).

Here's what I'm working with currently:


Pair Scrappers are for the curve, and they are overlooked, imo. Wither is what makes them good. R/G makes them super with Liege, though that should be gravy.
I'm trying to keep the number of nonbasics down because I predict Fulminator and Detritivore being very happy in the new meta, with many decks running decks chocca-full of nonbasics.

Depending on how the new meta shapes up, could Mr Unloved be any good? I know he has stiff competition though wit Ram-Gang and CotH.
Hi all,

I have been toying around with a similar idea and I came up with a (IMHO) great build that has a good/great matchup with most decks in the current meta. What do you think? If you have any additions or comments please feel free to post them..

RG Warriors Deck Wins!

Maindeck
4x Tattermunge Maniac
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Bramblewood Paragon
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Boggart Ram-Gang

4x Giant Baiting
4x Incinerate
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Javelin
2x Shard Volley

4x Karplusan Forest
4x Fire-Lit Thicket
3x Reflecting Pool
7x Mountain
4x Forest

Sideboard
3x Naturalize
3x Firespout
3x Tormod’s Crypt
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Manabarbs

Looks pretty good...I dunno what I'd change this list seems pretty optimal for RG Warriors...perhaps Radha? Your two-drop slot already looks pretty good though.

peace
This arch type looks very good, but seriously, "Ram-Bang?" Please people, you the spell check.
Please people, you the spell check.



// Lands
4 [SHA] Reflecting Pool
3 [SHA] Fire-Lit Thicket
4 [10E] Karplusan Forest
3 [7E] Forest (1)
1 [TSB] Pendelhaven
5 [SHA] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
4 [PLC] Keldon Marauders
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [PLC] Blood Knight
3 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [SHA] Tattermunge Maniac
2 [TSP] Magus of the Scroll

// Spells
4 [SHA] Flame Javelin
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [10E] Incinerate
4 [TSP] Sudden Shock

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHA] Everlasting Torment
SB: 3 [SHA] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 [SHA] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SHA] Fulminator Mage
I -NEED- to drop -ONE- more card. Help!

drop the 4th javelin at least. you have 4 lands that don't add R, so you're going to be casting it as a 2RR spell at times, and you don't want to run 4 2RR spells in what's supposed to be a fast aggro deck.

a problem i notice is that paragon is not really giving out much power. it turns your maruauders into 3 drops, and won't help tattermunge much, considering he will be outclassed in the late game. this build looks like it may be weak against opposing RDW players, as they can remove paragon pretty easily with their burn suite, and after that it will be hard to get much damage through, as their beats outclass your's, and they have gargadon as a finisher. without paragon, nothing tramples, and everything but tarmogoyf is subject to spot removal. after seeing the first invocation, they'll start burning things during their pre-combat main phase.

i would drop the invocations, paragons and the villages and switch to mountains, ashenmoor gorgers and something less bad.

This arch type looks very good, but seriously, "Ram-Bang?" Please people, use the spell check.

fixed. also, lol.