[Pre-Archetype] LD Control

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Our gameplan is land denial. We shoot for land-destruction on turns two, three, four and beyond. We want to keep our opponents on one or two lands at most, pressing the advantage with creatures like 'Goyf and Demigod of Revenge. Once they are unable to recover from our land-destruction, we can work in the beats and big spells to win.

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Critters

Birds of Paradise - Fixer, accel
Llanowar Elves - Accel
Simian Spirit Guide - Better on-color accel, one shot use though
'Goyf - 'Nuff said
Fulminator Mage - Staple, 4-of
Avalanche Riders - Staple, 3- or 4-of
Shivan Wumpus - Questionable, reminds me of Browbeat
Shriekmaw - Kills 'Goyf dead, solid w/ Mannequin builds
Demigod of Revenge - Solid wincon
Oona, Queen of the Fae - Possible wincon


Spells

Bitterblossom - Tough fit in our curve
Rain of Tears - Sure, it isn't Stone Rain, but it does the trick here! 4-of!
Makeshift Mannequin - Sometimes, they come back! Great w/ our LD creatures
Damnation - Good vs. our harder match-ups (aggro)
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss - Sub-par LD
Void - Discard / Sweeper
Primal Command - Versatile. Dig up an LD Critter, uproot a land, reshuffle as needed, or even gain some life
Profane Command - Very handy! Kill, recur, induce fear, and life drain! All in one!


Real Estate

Graven Cairns, Fire-Lit Thicket - Solid fixers
Grove of the Burnwillows - Inverted painland (better than Karplusan here)
Sulfurous Springs, Llanowar Wastes - Painlands
Reflecting Pool - Useful in small numbers
Gemstone Mine - We have demanding color requirements
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - The Swamp Maker
Swamps, Forests, and Mountains - These help, a lot


Plan B

Pithing Needle - Always handy
Extirpate - Useful hate
Deathmark - This may help against GW mid-range, which looks viable post-Shadowmoor
Eyes of the Wisent - Could be helpful
Pyroclasm - Cheap sweep
Vexing Shusher - Powerful little goblin!
Krosan Grip - Duh.
Bottle Gnomes - With Grim Harvest, hilarious
Eyeblight's Ending, Slaughter Pact, Nameless Inversion, Sudden Death - General removal spells
Cryoclasm - Solid board LD
Chameleon Colossus - Possible wincon vs. black-oriented metagames
Sulfurous Blast - Stick it to Faeries, possible MD inclusion
Detritivore - Gives us a late-game reach to keep them off lands and can be a modest beater too!
Cloudthresher - Anti-Faeries, works with Mannequin somewhat
Ingot Chewer - Cheap artifact kill, late-game 3/3


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RG LD, Brian Kelly, 8th Place SCG $5K

Land (22)
4x Fire-lit Thicket
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Treetop Village
6x Forest
4x Snow-Covered Mountain (?)

Creatures (30)
4x Avalanche Riders
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Deus of Calamity
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Llanowar Elves
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Wall of Roots

Spells (9)
2x Flame Javelin
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Tarfire

Sideboard (15)
1x Chameleon Colossus
2x Faerie Macabre (?)
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Raking Canopy
4x Naturalize

Odd choices, but it placed, so I felt I should toss it up here despite the fact most everyone here is going in a totally different direction.


OldHat's GBr Decklist

Lands (23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Graven Cairns
2x Reflecting Pool
3x Gemstone Mine
3x Forest
2x Swamp

Creatures (24)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Demigod of Revenge
3x Shriekmaw
1x Oona, Queen of the Fae

Spells (13)
4x Rain of Tears
2x Grim Harvest
4x Nameless Inversion
3x Primal Command

Sideboard (15)
4x Cryoclasm
1x Detritivore
4x Damnation
3x Extirpate
3x Seal of Primordium

This is still in testing, but thus far it has proven more reliable than my prior list (see below) and I think this is the route I will be taking. The sideboard will obviously change to reflect the new metagame, but I think it is pretty well-rounded.






Older Lists

OldHat's GBr Decklist, 4/12/08

Lands (23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Fire Canopy
3x Graven Cairns
2x Reflecting Pool
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Forest
3x Swamp

Creatures (22)
3x Llanowar Elves
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage
3x Shriekmaw
4x Demigod of Revenge

Spells (15)
4x Rain of Tears
4x Makeshift Mannequin
4x Damnation
3x Profane Command

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
4x Cryoclasm
2x Detritivore
4x Sulfurous Blast
2x Krosan Grip






OldHat's Original Recipe, 4/7/08

Lands (24)
4x Sulfurous Springs
4x Graven Cairns
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Mutavault
7x Mountain
5x Swamp

Creatures (18)
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Avalanche Riders
3x Shriekmaw
4x Dusk Urchins
3x Siege-gang Commander

Spells (18)
3x Profane Command
4x Rain of Tears
4x Makeshift Mannequin
3x Bitterblossom
4x Damnation

Sideboard (15)
4x Cryoclasm
4x Vexing Shusher
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Loxodon Warhammer
3x Extirpate

For posterity. I had the idea the moment I saw Fulminator Mage spoiled!



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Thanks to Hodoku (dividers) and Derek (banner). Also, thanks to Volacide for helping out with the thread.
Don't have any build yet, but on your build. Why tombstalker? I know its good, but because your running mannequin, wouldn't you want to keep the better stuff in you yard in case you can draw into mannequin? I think if your running tombstalker, you should be running gargadon. The two of them paired could be quite devistating.
Onto the specifics. It feels like 2 damnations pre-board is sort of random. Not enough consistency to save you from aggro, and holds up space against control. Could you please explain to me why its there?(Not trying to be negative and critical, I'm just curious, to see if you have some sort of grander design in mind. I do love to be proven wrong.)
To sum that all up, it is a conceptual list. I can't always see all the small problems, so generally my first few lists are a bit clunky. You make a great point about Tombstalker. So, to set this whole thing staight, -2 Tombstalker, +2 Damnation MD, -1 Shusher in the board and toss in a trio of Sulfurous Blast. Perhaps I can find room for a fourth, because that seems like a very needed spell nowadays.

Thanks for your input, it all drives this deck forwards.

Don't have any build yet, but on your build. Why tombstalker? I know its good, but because your running mannequin, wouldn't you want to keep the better stuff in you yard in case you can draw into mannequin? I think if your running tombstalker, you should be running gargadon. The two of them paired could be quite devistating.
Onto the specifics. It feels like 2 damnations pre-board is sort of random. Not enough consistency to save you from aggro, and holds up space against control. Could you please explain to me why its there?(Not trying to be negative and critical, I'm just curious, to see if you have some sort of grander design in mind. I do love to be proven wrong.)

Awesome! My version! :D

4x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage
3x Shriekmaw
3x Faultgrinder
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
3x Demigod of Revenge or Shivan Wumpus

4x Makeshift Mannequin
4x Rain of Tears
3x Profane Command
3x Grave Pact

4x Graven Cairns
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmouth
4x Sulfurous Springs
8x Mountain
7x Swamp

Not tested (Duh SM) but i think it can work!

Curse of the Cabal, he have to clear hes board else he will get totaly cleared!
I was thinking of a deck like this but with green in it too for a possable t2 Fulminator into t3 rain or riders to dominate the game, reminds me of KbbK
I will be honest with you, I just don't like Curse. It is so, so slow. It doesn't come down in time to do enough and just by getting rid of a single land, they might buy themselves the time to kill you. Also, I expect to see Riftsweepers again before too long (hunch). Gouger seems less than stellar here, even if rather well costed for his colors. Interesting choice in Grave Pact, too. Let me know how your list performs.

Awesome! My version! :D

Not tested (Duh SM) but i think it can work!

Curse of the Cabal, he have to clear hes board else he will get totaly cleared!

Hmm. Yea, Green does give it some nasty, nasty possibilities. In fact, I am sure that if LD gets popular, it will take the form of GB just for the sake of 'Goyf and Acid-Moss. Those are, of course, reasonable choices. It would operate a whole lot differently than this deck, though, that is for sure.

EDIT: Here is a list, just to explore all options!
GB LD Control Concept

Lands (23)
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Reflecting Pool
2x Gemstone Mine
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5x Forest
3x Swamp

Creatures (18)
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Shriekmaw

Spells (19)
4x Rain of Tears
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4x Nameless Inversion
2x Profane Command
3x Bitterblossom
2x Harmonize

So, that is just a rough sketch of how it could look. Obviously, more LD and 'Goyf, though I think it lacks "umph", generally speaking. Even though a T2 Mage or Rain of Tears would be really, really nasty, followed up with a turn 3 Acid-Moss. Drop a Bitterblossom or 'Goyf out and just start smashing face.


I was thinking of a deck like this but with green in it too for a possable t2 Fulminator into t3 rain or riders to dominate the game, reminds me of KbbK

Well I think its a fine Spell Curse of the Cabal 4 mana for insane stress, and Ashenmoor is for beating. But i think i will try this when SM comes
But i replace it for Demigod or Wumpus

what about Colfenor's Urn, Faultgrinder?
i don't think LD will fly much in standard. a lot of standard aggro decks now have very fast clocks. a turn 3 LD won't affect them much. later in the game it will be fine disruption, but i still miss dark ritual + rain of tears.
Scarscale Ritual to combo with your Dusk Urchins?
Well, a turn four Damnation will do plenty though. Also, there is no reason we can't run Ironfoot or Epochrasite. I do expect GW Mid-Range to make a renewed showing, given the cards they will get. Aggro, though, is not all that common currently and mana-hungry decks like Big Mana and Lark (two of the biggest decks right now) would be wrecked by LD.

@Goyf - Seems a bit narrow, but I do love card draw.

i don't think LD will fly much in standard. a lot of standard aggro decks now have very fast clocks. a turn 3 LD won't affect them much. later in the game it will be fine disruption, but i still miss dark ritual + rain of tears.

This is what I'm going to proxy up and test out come next friday. I have most of the deck except for the riders, mana base and of course the shadowmoor. I think it will flow smoothly.


Dudes - 16
4 x Fulminator Mage
4 x Avalanche Riders
4 x Epochrasite
4 x Dusk Urchins

Spells - 21
4 x Damnation
4 x Rain of Tears
4 x Makeshift Mannequin
3 x Profane Command
4 x Incenerate
2 x Mind Stone

Mana Base - 23
4 x Graven Cairns
4 x Sulfurous Springs
2 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 x Mountain
6 x Swamp

Sideboard - 15
4 x Vexing Shusher
4 x Sudden Death
4 x Terror
3 x Demigod of Revenge

As for my sideboard just about everything in there besides the shushers I have a feeling will change. I know I don't have a lot of ways to put damage through but I'm taking the mannequin approach to putting the damage through which is stay in control of the board and just slowly put damage through. I would imagine the only deck this wouldn't work to well against would be some martyr deck which I doubt will see much play.
Looks good. We should start getting in more and more Shadowmoor here in the next week, so maybe we will get another piece of LD or cheap recursion. Glad to see someone else taking this up.

This is what I'm going to proxy up and test out come next friday. I have most of the deck except for the riders, mana base and of course the shadowmoor. I think it will flow smoothly.


Dudes - 16
4 x Fulminator Mage
4 x Avalanche Riders
4 x Epochrasite
4 x Dusk Urchins

Spells - 21
4 x Damnation
4 x Rain of Tears
4 x Makeshift Mannequin
3 x Profane Command
4 x Incenerate
2 x Mind Stone

Mana Base - 23
4 x Graven Cairns
4 x Sulfurous Springs
2 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 x Mountain
6 x Swamp

Sideboard - 15
4 x Vexing Shusher
4 x Sudden Death
4 x Terror
3 x Demigod of Revenge

As for my sideboard just about everything in there besides the shushers I have a feeling will change. I know I don't have a lot of ways to put damage through but I'm taking the mannequin approach to putting the damage through which is stay in control of the board and just slowly put damage through. I would imagine the only deck this wouldn't work to well against would be some martyr deck which I doubt will see much play.

No love for Detritivore?
If we see a preponderance of non-basics, then he might be a contender for a maindeck slot. As it stands, I think he is a very solid sideboard card.

No love for Detritivore?

Green lets you pretty consistently destroy your opponents lands starting turn 2, instead of turn 3 with r/b. With all the fast aggressive decks that are going to be present post sha, turn 3 seems too slow to me. Green also gives you woodfall primus as more ld and a very hard to remove finisher (especially with mannequin)
If you do decide to stick with b/r then you NEED rift bolt or shock as a first turn play to give you tempo (whether its against an aggressive creature or a bop) but i still suggest g/b or g/b/r.
...You did it. Obviously, this deck needs to be all three colors. Seriously.

Rain of Tears, Mage, Acid-Moss, and all the first turn accel you can shake a stick at! That does make for a serious difference.

So, I will draw up a list asap.

EDIT: Cobbled together MESS!

3-Color LD Control
Lands (23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Graven Cairns
2x Fire Canopy*
2x Reflecting Pool
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain

Creatures (21)
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Llanowar Elves
3-4x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage*
3x Siege-gang Commander
3x Dusk Urchins*
2x Spitebellows

Spells (19)
3-4x Rain of Tears
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4x Makeshift Mannequin
3x Damnation
3x Profane Command

Sideboard (15)
2x Shriekmaw
3x Extirpate
4x Cryoclasm
2x Seal of Primordium
4x Sulfurous Blast

Yea yea, let me guess, "Needs more 'Goyf" or some such variant on the phrase. Other than that glaring deficiency, it needs a lot of work and testing. Still, it can in theory deliver some t2 LD for some nastiness. One big problem I see is hitting a t2 Rain of Tears. That might prove difficult. Again, I will proxy and test this as soon as I can.

Green lets you pretty consistently destroy your opponents lands starting turn 2, instead of turn 3 with r/b. With all the fast aggressive decks that are going to be present post sha, turn 3 seems too slow to me. Green also gives you woodfall primus as more ld and a very hard to remove finisher (especially with mannequin)
If you do decide to stick with b/r then you NEED rift bolt or shock as a first turn play to give you tempo (whether its against an aggressive creature or a bop) but i still suggest g/b or g/b/r.

I think if you're going to include green I think I would make it a main color and just splash red for the riders. At the very least it would be much more stable. Imagine the mirror match where you're playing the GBR and the other person is play RB or GBr. If you miss your turn 2 LD and even worse are on the draw then you could potentially be screwed out of a whole color rather quickly and not be able to play around the impediment. The other reason I say only splash the red if you are going that way is it will make your mana base much less painful. In the meta I see coming I would imagine having a super pain mana base could enable a turn 3 kill before you even get a chance to damn the board.

I'm torn between G/B/r and R/B but R/B will be the first I build up and test out. I think R/B has more interesting possibilities in a control variation. In fact I think the only reason to include the green would be to keep control off of counter mana. I can't honestly know until I test both out but R/B just seems a bit more stable to me.

Now with all those weighty opinions off my chest here is my variation on G/B/r:

Dudes - 14
4 x Birds of Paradise
3 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Fulminator Mage
3 x Avalanche Riders
4 x Dusk Urhins

Spells - 15
4 x Rain of Tears
3 x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 x Damnation
4 x Makeshift Mannequin
3 x Profane Command

Mana - 24
4 x Llanowar Wastes
4 x Grove of the Burnwillows
2 x Sulfurous Springs
2 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 x Graven Cairns
4 x Swamp
6 x Forest

This is definitely a rough draft. I'm not sure whether or not I like the profanes in the main in this deck. If I were to switch them with anything though it would be Grim Harvest. The mana base is going to require a lot of tweaking. I keep looking at it like it has something on it's face and I keep changing it. I guess I'll settle with this for now but I think I will probably change it after proxy testing.
...Still, it can in theory deliver some t2 LD for some nastiness. One big problem I see is hitting a t2 Rain of Tears. That might prove difficult...

Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Instant
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.
#211/301
Yea, it basically makes the deck 56 cards. That is a tempting pick, because it enables a turn 2 LD without any actual card disadvantage. In fact, it thins the deck out. At first, I dismissed this as a Storm enabler more than anything, but I think this might work here if I can find the room.

They key for me now is finding the right balance between beaters, LD, removal and recursion.

Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Instant
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.
#211/301

If we see a preponderance of non-basics, then he might be a contender for a maindeck slot. As it stands, I think he is a very solid sideboard card.

Yeah, because in the current meta, we don't see A LOT of these:
- Mutavault
- Treetop Village
- Faerie Conclave
- Mouth of Ronom
- Snow Duals
- Pain Lands
- Pendelhaven
- Tribe Duals

And these a good bit too, though less:
- Storage Lands
- Scrying Sheets
- Murming Bosk

And let's not forget the five duals that will be coming in with Shadowmoor.
- Vivids
I expect he will be playable in the maindeck, but I still have some reservations. I may find in testing that he is what the deck needs to keep up that pressure turn 4+.

Yeah, because in the current meta, we don't see A LOT of these:
- Mutavault
- Treetop Village
- Faerie Conclave
- Mouth of Ronom
- Snow Duals
- Pain Lands
- Pendelhaven
- Tribe Duals

And these a good bit too, though less:
- Storage Lands
- Scrying Sheets
- Murming Bosk

And let's not forget the five duals that will be coming in with Shadowmoor.
- Vivids

3-Color LD Control -changes in bold/underline
Lands (22)
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Graven Cairns
2x Fire Canopy*
2x Reflecting Pool
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain

Creatures (19)
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Llanowar Elves
3x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage*
3x Siege-gang Commander
3x Spitebellows

Spells (22)
4x Rain of Tears
3x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3x Makeshift Mannequin
3x Damnation
2x Profane Command
4x manamorphose*
3x woodfall primus

Sideboard (15)
2x Shriekmaw
3x Extirpate
4x Cryoclasm
2x Seal of Primordium
4x Sulfurous Blast

theres my take, i took out urchins, without scarscale ritual i don't think there's any advantage to running it over other things
if you need card draw, harmonize is probably still your best bet
oh and my inner johnny has a love affair with woodfall primus, so if you think its jank replace with some other finisher
Hrm. I think the Urchins won't do. I had been tossing around Harmonize and I think it is basically going to need to be in. I see you added Spitebellows. Just seems like a possible inclusion as removal and can come back with Mannequin to beat face for six if all else fails. Why did you cut down the Elves? Think the Manamorphose is that much more useful?

The deck has a lot of room to grow. I am eager to see the RG Demigod, because it could be what we need (or not, to which I will be rather let down).

theres my take, i took out urchins, without scarscale ritual i don't think there's any advantage to running it over other things
if you need card draw, harmonize is probably still your best bet
oh and my inner johnny has a love affair with woodfall primus, so if you think its jank replace with some other finisher

I think Shivan Wumpus deserves a little consideration as a big early fattie. Also for the / version, maybe Boom/Bust, Seismic Assault, Crucible of Worlds?

I'll need some time to mess around with it, but I think this has potential.
just tagging the post so i can find it later.
I just noticed that Plunder unsuspends right when one can play Volcanic Awakening, assume no mana accel of course. Nothing constructed worthy I'm sure but still a list would look something like this:

//Lands
4*Sulfurous Springs
3*Underground River
4*Shivan Reef
3*Graven Cairns
3*Sunken Ruins (shadowmoor)
1*River of Tears
2*Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3*Mountain
1*Kher Keep
//Spells
4*Rite of Flame
3*Pooling Venom
4*Plunder
3*Rain of Tears
4*Fulminator Mage (shadowmoor)
3*Mulldrifter
4*Avalanche Riders
3*Dread Return
4*Faultgrinder
3*Volcanic Awakening
1*Profane Command

So LD focused, it may be hard to win, lol.


On a more serious note, I am glad to see so much discussion here regarding this thread's deck concept. Though I started a thread based on a very similar concept back in December due to my confidence in this archetype back when there was no information on Shadowmoor, it seemed that most (not all) of its serious posts were just by myself. When I said sure to OldHat creating this thread, I had hoped it would take off better with his more familiar name heading it. This seems to be the case as there appears to be more of an effort here to make it competitive. Anyway after further testing some of my own ideas, I'll post a more serious decklist here .
Is there a reason noone has mentioned countryside crusher, in a deck that's going to like suspending detritivore, or just blowing up lands in general?

Another option would be mind twist, to follow up the LD by hurting their hand to stop them recovering? I prefer d-vore, though
Crusher is 1, so he would be better in RB builds. Also, I try to get a big Profane Command, so more lands are better. Crusher filters out our lands, so that is less synergistic than I would like.

As for Mind Shatter, that seems like a decent option, but as you said, D-Vore is a better choice. Seems that he might even be a maindeck worthy addition, which I need to test.

Is there a reason noone has mentioned countryside crusher, in a deck that's going to like suspending detritivore, or just blowing up lands in general?

Another option would be mind twist, to follow up the LD by hurting their hand to stop them recovering? I prefer d-vore, though



This thread needs more love.
I'm rather surprised this deck isn't getting more love. You would think turn 2 LD would get some people's attention but I guess not.

Have you tried running the harmonize over the dusk urchins yet OldHat? I'm not really sure which one I like more. The urchin's draw is slower but it puts damage through and has the added bonus of costing less. I have the harmonizes in right now but I might play around with it.

I'm considering running some big creature instead of the profanes but it seems less synergistic being that you can profane them for huge AND kill off another land by bringing back a rider. The sad part is I don't have someone to test this against so I can't really get any true playtesting done until friday. I guess I'll have to wait but I'm interested in anyone's feedback who can actually get some test matches in.


This thread needs more love.

I've been considering a different approach to building LD control.

As Oldhat pointed out, land destruction severely hampers the gameplans of the top control decks in current T2. On the other hand, heavy LD strategy has glaring weaknesses against fast aggro decks, especially those that are resilient against LD (Elf Machine), can deal lethal damage from cheap burn alone (RDL), or both (R/g Beats). Heck, even Doran can give LD a bit of trouble if they get lucky with Cashseize and Mana Accelerants.

Based on our very brief SWOT analysis, I believe that the reliance of T2 LD actually hurts our strategy instead of helping it. As we've already figured out, land destruction can stop BigMana and Lark dead by denying them their 4th/5th land. In those matchups, we don't really care whether our first LD spell hits on T2 or T3.

Now back to problematic aggro decks. More often than not, those decks either have their own mana accelerators, methods to remove our fragile x/1 accelerators, cards that cost next to nothing (Benneret Wack you for B!), or all of the above. The soundest strategy against them is not mana disruption, it's to survive long enough and win the attrition game through card advantage.

Therefore, I propose that we should build a control-oriented deck, rather than attempting to reanimate KBBK. The deck was good back in its time, but too slow against aggro decks in today's environment. I'm still working on an optimal decklist, but here are a few pointers that I want to share with fellow LD addicts out there: :P

1) Replace BOP and Elves with Wall of Roots and Into the North. The former fulfills two roles, and the latter is great for fetching another R or B.

2) Use GB as the main colors, and splash red for Avalanche Riders/Sulfurous Blast MD.

3) Play a good amount of removal. In this case, board sweepers are more favorable than point removal. I like Shriekmaw and Spitebellows due to Mannequin interaction.

4) Primal Command is golden. It serves as a pseudo LD (mini Plow Under?) and can buy us time against aggro decks or toolbox a creature. I think it deserves four slots in this deck.

5) Detritivore needs to be in this deck, as a 2-of at least. It's a slower Tectonic Break (I understand they have very different functions, but their purposes are similar) that will probably rival Greater Garadon in new T2, thanks to upcoming shadowmoor duals.

Oh, and last but not least...
(6) This thread needs more love.
I'm rather surprised this deck isn't getting more love. You would think turn 2 LD would get some people's attention but I guess not.

Have you tried running the harmonize over the dusk urchins yet OldHat? I'm not really sure which one I like more. The urchin's draw is slower but it puts damage through and has the added bonus of costing less. I have the harmonizes in right now but I might play around with it.

I'm considering running some big creature instead of the profanes but it seems less synergistic being that you can profane them for huge AND kill off another land by bringing back a rider. The sad part is I don't have someone to test this against so I can't really get any true playtesting done until friday. I guess I'll have to wait but I'm interested in anyone's feedback who can actually get some test matches in.

Profane Command is a very good card, though I probably wouldn't play more than two copies of that, due to the generally large CMC of our creatures.

Dusk Urchins, if playable in constructed, belongs to aggro-oriented decks IMO. I look at the card and it reads "Browbeat" for some bizzare reason, hehe.
1) Replace BOP and Elves with Wall of Roots and Into the North. The former fulfills two roles, and the latter is great for fetching another R or B.

2) Use GB as the main colors, and splash red for Avalanche Riders/Sulfurous Blast MD.

3) Play a good amount of removal. In this case, board sweepers are more favorable than point removal. I like Shriekmaw and Spitebellows due to Mannequin interaction.

4) Primal Command is golden. It serves as a pseudo LD (mini Plow Under?) and can buy us time against aggro decks or toolbox a creature. I think it deserves four slots in this deck.

5) Detritivore needs to be in this deck, as a 2-of at least. It's a slower Tectonic Break (I understand they have very different functions, but their purposes are similar) that will probably rival Greater Garadon in new T2, thanks to upcoming shadowmoor duals.

Oh, and last but not least...
(6) This thread needs more love.

1. It means you can't get turn 2 LD, which is critical if you want to beat faeries with this deck. I would not cut both, but maybe you can just cut elves for wall of roots, and keep birds.

2. I completely agree.

3. Very true.

4. I'm undecided... 5 mana is not so brilliant, and the tutor ability isn't that hot either, but gaining life is good, the plow under part is good, and shuffling the graveyard is relevant against lark.

5. Definitely.
1. It means you can't get turn 2 LD, which is critical if you want to beat faeries with this deck. I would not cut both, but maybe you can just cut elves for wall of roots, and keep birds.

2. I completely agree.

3. Very true.

4. I'm undecided... 5 mana is not so brilliant, and the tutor ability isn't that hot either, but gaining life is good, the plow under part is good, and shuffling the graveyard is relevant against lark.

5. Definitely.

You're completely right about the importance of T2 LD in the faeries matchup. Is there some other way to improve our odds against faeries other than praying for a (resolved) T2 LD? I think LD's chance of winning is rather slim pre-boarding. If we can't slip in an LD spell on T2, then T3 Pestermite/T4 Mystbind pretty much ends the game. Getting mana-denialed as a mana-denial deck is pretty shameful. :P

Edit: I think Primal Command has great potential when played in the right deck. The lifegain saved me more than a few times when I played against RDW/RDL variants as GWu Big Mana, and mini-plow + shuffling almost always push Lark back for a few turns.

In LD control, it can stall fast aggro (relatively unfavorable matchup), toolbox silver bullets (Detritivore comes to mind), and disrupt mana (deck theme). At the bottom line, Primal Command is the only command I'd run in this deck. RCommand is meh, and BCommand belongs to an aggro/aggro-control deck like GB elf or Doran.
i think that vexing shusher should be at least in the sb for vs faeries, having your ld spells being uncounterable is some sweet sauce. here is what i was thinking of:

autocard

Creatures - 22
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Avalanche Riders
4x Dusk Urhins

Spells - 14
4x Rain of Tears
4x Thought Sieze
3x Call of the Herd
3x Profane Command

Mana - 24
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Sulfurous Springs
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Graven Cairns
2x Reflecting Pool
3x Swamp
5x Forest

SB - 15
4x Vexing shusher
1x Avalanche Riders
4x Pyroclasm
3x Exterpate
3x naturalize or something vs bitterblossom and other enchantments

any way thats my take, thoughts?
You're completely right about the importance of T2 LD in the faeries matchup. Is there some other way to improve our odds against faeries other than praying for a (resolved) T2 LD? I think LD's chance of winning is rather slim pre-boarding. If we can't slip in an LD spell on T2, then T3 Pestermite/T4 Mystbind pretty much ends the game. Getting mana-denialed as a mana-denial deck is pretty shameful. :P

Edit: I think Primal Command has great potential when played in the right deck. The lifegain saved me more than a few times when I played against RDW/RDL variants as GWu Big Mana, and mini-plow + shuffling almost always push Lark back for a few turns.

In LD control, it can stall fast aggro (relatively unfavorable matchup), toolbox silver bullets (Detritivore comes to mind), and disrupt mana (deck theme). At the bottom line, Primal Command is the only command I'd run in this deck. RCommand is meh, and BCommand belongs to an aggro/aggro-control deck like GB elf or Doran.

I think I agree about primal command. The whole gaining 7 life thing against aggro should help slow them down...

Cloudthresher is an obvious sb choice against faeries, to go with aiming for turn 2 LD... generally they will try to counter that play, often leaving you free to punish them with thresher or get through some other ld....

turn 2 fulminator mage, turn 3 EoT thresher (if they got blossom), turn 4 avalanche riders should do the trick here...

anyway, im thinking of maybe a list like...

lands(23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Graven Cairns
2x Fire Canopy
2x Reflecting Pool
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Mountain

Creatures (23)
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Llanowar Elves
3x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Detritivore
3x Shriekmaw

Spells (14)
4x Rain of Tears
3x Primal Command
3x Bitterblossom
4x Thoughtsieze

Sideboard (15)
4x Cryoclasm
4x Cloudthresher
4x Deathmark
3x Damnation

Deathmark makes a -fantastic- sb card against kithkin and doran type aggro decks.

Damnation you play because it will be unexpected, and you just don't overextend into it..
...I believe that the reliance of T2 LD actually hurts our strategy instead of helping it. As we've already figured out, land destruction can stop BigMana and Lark dead by denying them their 4th/5th land. In those matchups, we don't really care whether our first LD spell hits on T2 or T3...

I have actually come to this conclusion myself recently while I pondered where to take my list ideas next, especially as I wonder if I should abandon my old thread's concept for this new thread's one. This has been especially true as I look over my more pure B/R lists ideas. The only reason I haven't posted a successful list yet is because I really don't have the opportunity to do any testing anymore.
I came up with something a little different...

Creatures
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Nihilith
4 Shriekmaw


Spells
2 Boom (Boom/Bust)
2 Bust (Boom/Bust)
4 Damnation
4 Incendiary Command
4 Incinerate
4 Rain of Tears
4 Stupor


Lands
8 Mountain
4 Sulfurous Springs
8 Swamp
4 Tresserhorn Sinks

I guess my worst match up would be against faeries. But the deck has lots of options. What do you think?
I came up with something a little different...

list
Creatures
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Nihilith
4 Shriekmaw


Spells
2 Boom (Boom/Bust)
2 Bust (Boom/Bust)
4 Damnation
4 Incendiary Command
4 Incinerate
4 Rain of Tears
4 Stupor


Lands
8 Mountain
4 Sulfurous Springs
8 Swamp
4 Tresserhorn Sinks


I guess my worst match up would be against faeries. But the deck has lots of options. What do you think?

I have a lot of thoughts but for now I think I will stick with the one I feel needs to be said most. This also goes to whoever suggested Mind Shatter earlier too. It is not a good idea to have either opponent's choice or even random discard in the same deck as land destruction (note these are different than your choice discard, aka Thoughtseize). They are not synergistic, they are redundant.

If you're destroying your opponents lands, they can't play as many spells and therefore will typically be holding more cards in hand. Forcing them to discard them when they can't play them anyway is pointless. On top of that, they will typically always have far more choices of what to discard, which as we all know more choices for an opponent = bad.
That looks like an exceptional build. I will toss it up on the front page. It certainly is not for the budget player, though.

I think I agree about primal command. The whole gaining 7 life thing against aggro should help slow them down...

Cloudthresher is an obvious sb choice against faeries, to go with aiming for turn 2 LD... generally they will try to counter that play, often leaving you free to punish them with thresher or get through some other ld....

turn 2 fulminator mage, turn 3 EoT thresher (if they got blossom), turn 4 avalanche riders should do the trick here...

anyway, im thinking of maybe a list like...

lands(23)
4x Llanowar Wastes
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Graven Cairns
2x Fire Canopy
2x Reflecting Pool
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Mountain

Creatures (23)
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Llanowar Elves
3x Avalanche Riders
4x Fulminator Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Detritivore
3x Shriekmaw

Spells (14)
4x Rain of Tears
3x Primal Command
3x Bitterblossom
4x Thoughtsieze

Sideboard (15)
4x Cryoclasm
4x Cloudthresher
4x Deathmark
3x Damnation

Deathmark makes a -fantastic- sb card against kithkin and doran type aggro decks.

Damnation you play because it will be unexpected, and you just don't overextend into it..

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