Turn to Frog + Equipment

7 posts / 0 new
Last post

My Runeclaw Bear is affected by Turn to Frog. Later that turn, I equip it with Sword of Vengeance. Does it have first strike, vigilance, trample, and haste? My thought is no, based on rule 613.7a


613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 


613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. 

Since the Bear initially has no abilities, the "loses all abilities" part of Turn to Frog's effect can't do anything. However, once the Sword's effect grants the bear abilities, Turn to Frog's effect can remove those abilities. By that logic, it seems to me that Turn to Frog would depend on Sword of Vengeance.

Rules Advisor

Does it have first strike, vigilance, trample, and haste?

My thought is no, based on rule 613.7a
Regardless of how many abilities runeclaw bear starts with, turn to frog still causes it to lose all of them. If the bear has zero abilities then losing all of them is trivial, but what turn to frog does to the bears hasn't changed.


EDIT: The following example in the rulebook is similar, though not identical, to your scenario

613.8. One continuous effect can override another. Sometimes the results of one effect determine whether another effect applies or what another effect does.
Example: Two effects are affecting the same creature: one from an Aura that says "Enchanted creature gains flying" and one from an Aura that says "Enchanted creature loses flying." Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they're doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last "wins." The same process would be followed, and the same result reached, if either of the effects had a duration (such as "Target creature loses flying until end of turn") or came from a non-Aura source (such as "All creatures lose flying").

Ok, thanks.

Rules Advisor

112.10. Effects can add or remove abilities of objects. An effect that adds an ability will state that the object “gains” or “has” that ability. An effect that removes an ability will state that the object “loses” that ability. Effects that remove an ability remove all instances of it. If two or more effects add and remove the same ability, in general the most recent one prevails. (See rule 613, “Interaction of Continuous Effects.”)

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Little known fact: A continuous effect created by a resolving spell or ability can never, ever, depend on another effect.


Only effects from static abilities can be dependent.

That highlighted portion is more for Yixlid Jailer + Necrotic Ooze interactions. ie. Necrotic Ooze always waits for Yixlid Jailer to go first.


I can see why you'd think that it would apply to the scenario that you posted. I thought the same thing initially too.


The passage Cyphern posted says it explicitly, but the game designers felt that ability lose effects shouldn't trump ability gain effects so they made them not be dependent.

Imagine that I attack with a 1/1 flyer and Gravity Well triggers and resolves and removes flying. I then cast Jump at my 1/1.
Without looking at what the rules say, what do you think the intuitive result of this interaction should be?

How about for the typical player?


If we say that Jump's effect is dependent on Gravity Well's, Jump does absolutely nothing and is a wasted card.

Gravity Well's trigger would win over every effect that grants flying before and after it resolved until the cleanup step.
That's not intuitive nor sensible so ability gain effects are not dependent on ability loss effects.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320

My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out


Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.

Fezzhead highlighted this part:

FezzHead wrote:
 or what it does to any of the things it applies to; .
But this never happens; whatever order you apply those effects, they keep doing the same thing:

1-Frog removes abilities

2-Sword grants abilities




1-Sword grants abilities

2-Frog removes abilities


See, there's no change to what it does to any of the things it applies to.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!