heroic trigger

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I have read the rules around the triggers for heroic and understand that the heroic ability will trigger before the spell that triggers it resolves.  In other words, when does targetting appear on the stack.

 

My question is how the stack looks like with Cancel or any blue counter magic.  Common sense says that if you cancel a spell, the effects it triggers should also cancel.

 

Say I have Anax and Cymede and target with Giant Growth.  My opponent plays Cancel.  Will heroic trigger or does the Giant Growth have to resolve to target

Targeting doesn't use the stack. Only spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities go on the stack.

Things become targeted while one of those things is being placed on the stack, and any apprioriate triggered abilities wait until the casting process is complete before putting themselves on (top of) the stack.

If you cast Giant Growth targeting Anax, Heroic will trigger as soon as Giant Growth is done being cast. Your opponent can cancel it, but Heroic would still be on the stack.

Common sense does NOT say what you think it should. The trigger condition is that it becomes targeted, not that a spell resolves.

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Targets are actually chosen before the spell even goes on the stack:

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time.

Rules Advisor

Strago_Magus wrote:

Targets are actually chosen before the spell even goes on the stack:

 

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time.

No. The very first step of casting a spell (apart from deciding to use morph, or deciding which part of a split card to cast), is putting the spell on the stack : 

601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

Actually, putting something on the stack is the very first thing you do when casting a spell or ability (other than saying "I'm doing this").

Check 601.2a for spells, 603.3 for triggered abilities.

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Strago_Magus wrote:

Targets are actually chosen before the spell even goes on the stack:

 

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time.

No, the very first step of casting a spell or activating an ability is announcing it and putting it on the stack. Later, you choose targets. At the end of the process, you pay for it and it becomes "cast", but it has been on the stack for a while.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Is there any way to counter a heroic trigger?

That's not really a rules question... Technically yes, but a triggered ability isn't a spell, so you'll need something that specifically counters abilities (e.g., Stifle or Voidslime), or you'll need to remove the target of the ability or make it illegal so the game counters the ability for you (if it has a target).

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

DagonSushi wrote:

I have read the rules around the triggers for heroic and understand that the heroic ability will trigger before the spell that triggers it resolves.  In other words, when does targetting appear on the stack.

 

My question is how the stack looks like with Cancel or any blue counter magic.  Common sense says that if you cancel a spell, the effects it triggers should also cancel.

 

Say I have Anax and Cymede and target with Giant Growth.  My opponent plays Cancel.  Will heroic trigger or does the Giant Growth have to resolve to target

 

The triggered ability that looking for "Whenever you cast a spell" , ie. young pyromancer or Talrand, sky summoner or guttersnipe , will trigger when you cast a spell.

You can find that when a spell becomes cast by this rule ;

601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.

This means , when a spell becomes cast , the triggered ability that looking for this will trigger and be put on the stack.

This triggered ability is independence from its sorce or event that have triggered. No matter what happen to the spell that has just cast , the triggered ability will be fine.

So , if you have Anax and Cymede on the field , you cast giant growth target your Anax. The Anax's heroic ability trigger and put on the stack. Then your opponent get priority and cast cancel target giant growth.

The stack will looks like this ; cancel is on the top most of the stack , heroic triggered ability , giant growth is the lowest.

Cancel resolve first = counter giant growth , only effect of giant growth itself (target creature get +3/+3 until end of turn) is "cancel".

Then heroic ability resolve just fine.

Please autocard , check it on [read this first] - creating a rules thread.

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DagonSushi wrote:

I have read the rules around the triggers for heroic and understand that the heroic ability will trigger before the spell that triggers it resolves.  In other words, when does targetting appear on the stack.

 

My question is how the stack looks like with Cancel or any blue counter magic.  Common sense says that if you cancel a spell, the effects it triggers should also cancel.

 

Say I have Anax and Cymede and target with Giant Growth.  My opponent plays Cancel.  Will heroic trigger or does the Giant Growth have to resolve to target

 

The triggered ability that looking for "Whenever you cast a spell" , ie. young pyromancer or Talrand, sky summoner or guttersnipe , will trigger when you cast a spell.

You can find that when a spell becomes cast by this rule ;

601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.

This means , when a spell becomes cast , the triggered ability that looking for this will trigger and be put on the stack.

This triggered ability is independence from its sorce or event that have triggered. No matter what happen to the spell that has just cast , the triggered ability will be fine.

So , if you have Anax and Cymede on the field , you cast giant growth target your Anax. The Anax's heroic ability trigger and put on the stack. Then your opponent get priority and cast cancel target giant growth.

The stack will looks like this ; cancel is on the top most of the stack , heroic triggered ability , giant growth is the lowest.

Cancel resolve first = counter giant growth , only effect of giant growth itself (target creature get +3/+3) is "cancel".

Then heroic ability resolve just fine.

 

Sorry , repeat reply - my internet problem.

Please autocard , check it on [read this first] - creating a rules thread.

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Okay I have a question regarding how this perticular instance of a stack would work out.

 

I just want to verify

 

Take a Wingsteed Rider(2/2 Heroic = he gets +1/+1 counter on trigger)and then cast Last Breath(exile target creature with power less than or equal to two, its controller gains 4 life) targeting it,

 

So by my understanding the stack would look like this

Heroic triggered ability, Last Breath.

 

The Heroic triggered ability turns Wingsteed Rider into a 3/3 before Last Breath which only affects those with 2 or less power.

 

The spell should flop and be invalid, correct? but at the same time would you still get the 4 life from the card?

Assuming you control both cards, you're mostly right. Wingsteed Rider will get his +1/+1 counter, then Last Breath will be countered because all of its targets are illegal. You will not gain any life.

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Ok, so how about this scenario:

I have Favored Hoplite on the field, attack, and cast Titan's Strength targeting Favored Hoplite.  My opponent casts Searing Blood targeting Favored Hoplite.  What happens?

It sounds like Favored Hoplite is dead because he takes two damage before he gains a toughness from the heroic trigger?

 

Second scenario:

I attack with Hero of Iroas.  My opponent casts Shock targeting my Hero of Iroas.  I cast Coordinated Assault targeting Hero of Iroas.  What happens?

It sounds like Hero of Iroas would survive and do 4 damage to my opponent?

It sounds like you understand. 

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Blair524 wrote:

Ok, so how about this scenario:

I have Favored Hoplite on the field, attack, and cast Titan's Strength targeting Favored Hoplite.  My opponent casts Searing Blood targeting Favored Hoplite.  What happens?

It sounds like Favored Hoplite is dead because he takes two damage before he gains a toughness from the heroic trigger?

Depends on when exactly the opponent is responding. There are two things he can respond to, the Titan's Stength spell and the heroic trigger. If he responds to the heroic trigger, the Hoplite still only has a toughness of 2 and dies before it gets a +1/+1 counter or the spell's boost. It's unlikely, but the opponent could also let the heroic trigger resolve and respond to the TT spell, in which case, the Hoplite would have its new +1/+1 counter already and survive. So your opponent should state it clearly, when he's responding to avoid ambiguity. I think, a judge in a tournament would rule that he responded at the first possible opportunity, so to the heroic trigger and the Hoplite dies. (Note, that the TT spell will then be countered on resolution, so no scry 1 for you)

 

Second scenario:

I attack with Hero of Iroas.  My opponent casts Shock targeting my Hero of Iroas.  I cast Coordinated Assault targeting Hero of Iroas.  What happens?

It sounds like Hero of Iroas would survive and do 4 damage to my opponent?

Yes. Heroic triggers and resolves before CA and Shock,  then it gets another +1/+0 when the CA resolves. Then it's burned for 2 with the resolving Shock. It will be a 4/3 creature with 2 damage marked on it and gets to deal 4 combat damage.

I started up my next community draft in the limited forums. This time around the format is Zendikar/Worldwake/Rise of the Eldrazi. So if you like to draft, come by and share your thoughts.

CD2: General

 

My community draft experiment with DTK/DTK/FRF is concluded now. If you want to, you can check it out and maybe build some decks from the pools. I've already build my own take on that.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/limited-sealed-and-draft/threads/4206961

 

Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

Nitpick

This part of your text:

rezzahan wrote:
...your opponent should state it clearly, when he's responding...
...is in direct contradiction with those two other parts:
rezzahan wrote:
It's unlikely, but the opponent could also let the heroic trigger resolve and respond to the TT spell...

...a judge in a tournament would rule that he responded at the first possible opportunity...

 

One shouldn't have to 'clearly state' while doing the obvious play rather than doing the unlikely alternative dumb play...

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