Experiment Kraj and Infinite Uses of Planeswalker Abilites.

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Experiment Kraj
Memnarch
Karn, Silver Golem
Jace Beleren

I read somewhere that this works, and I'm looking for hard rules confirmation.

Have Experiment Kraj, Memnarch, Karn, and Jace in play.
Use Memnarch's ability to make Jace Beleren an artifact.
Use Karn's ability to turn Jace into an artifact creature with three power and toughness.
Put a +1/+1 Counter on Jace (either via Kraj, or another method)

Now Kraj has Jace's abilities, correct? Can he use them at will? Can I now draw as many cards as I want, or deck every opponent at the table at instant speed? How exactly does this work?

I'll need comp rules to explain myself if I ever pull this off. Thanks. ;)
Planeswalker abilities can only be used at Sorcery speed. Apart from that, you're exactly right. Just note that the loyalty costs still apply, and your Kraj will start with zero loyalty counters, so you'll need to use the "everyone draws a card" ability first.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Ah well it was an easy question until you asked for comp rules. There are no comp rules. The closest is the comp rule saying planeswalkers can only use their abilities once a turn.

306.7. A player may activate an ability of a planeswalker any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of its activated abilities have been activated that turn.

Then you extrapolate that there's nothing stopping kraj from using the abilities more than once a turn.

Planeswalker abilities can only be used at Sorcery speed. Apart from that, you're exactly right.

Are you sure kraj can't play them at anytime you have priority?
It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.
Activated abilities, unless something says otherwise, can be played as often as you can pay for them, whenever you have priority.

Something says otherwise in the case of Planeswalker abilities, namely the rules for the Planeswalker type. This creates a loophole - those rules don't apply to anything that is not currently a Planeswalker.

So if you make a Planeswalker a creature somehow, and get a +1/+1 counter onto it, Experiment Kraj gains its activated abilities without the usual limitations. It can give itself a number of loyalty counters equal to the number of particles in the universe using the planeswalker's "plus" ability then use the planeswalker's "ultimate" as many times as it needs to.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Then you extrapolate that there's nothing stopping kraj from using the abilities more than once a turn.

Are you sure kraj can't play them at anytime you have priority?

Actually, no. I didn't realize that the Sorcery restriction applied only to the Planeswalker type as well (teach me not to doublecheck the comp rules for a question). So Instant speed it is, I suppose.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Activated abilities, unless something says otherwise, can be played as often as you can pay for them, whenever you have priority.

Something says otherwise in the case of Planeswalker abilities, namely the rules for the Planeswalker type. This creates a loophole - those rules don't apply to anything that is not currently a Planeswalker.

So if you make a Planeswalker a creature somehow, and get a +1/+1 counter onto it, Experiment Kraj gains its activated abilities without the usual limitations. It can give itself a number of loyalty counters equal to the number of particles in the universe using the planeswalker's "plus" ability then use the planeswalker's "ultimate" as many times as it needs to.

This answer is what I expected. However, the problem is in explaining it using the comp rules. Without comp rules, it would be open to interpretation.

When I do this, I'm fairly certain that I'll need these written down with me so that I can prove that I'm making a legitimate play.

There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.
There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.

The best that can be done is find the rules for activated abilities. But the point is there are no rules that say you can only activate an activated ability once a turn. There is this rule though:

115.1b A player may activate an activated ability any time he or she has priority.
It's not until you learn something you realize how little you know. DCI Level 1 Judge.
This answer is what I expected. However, the problem is in explaining it using the comp rules. Without comp rules, it would be open to interpretation.

When I do this, I'm fairly certain that I'll need these written down with me so that I can prove that I'm making a legitimate play.

There has to be some rule, somewhere, that deals with non-Planeswalker permanents gaining the abilities of a Planeswalker.

The rules specify that a Planeswalker can only have one of its activated abilities activated on your turn when you could normally play a sorcery, and only once per turn per Planeswalker-in-play object (that is, a second copy of Jace if you kill the first one off by drawing a card can also have one of its abilities used). The rules do not say anything about the abilities printed on a Planeswalker; in the same scenario as you described, a 'Walker enchanted by Power of Fire couldn't tap for the PoF-granted ability if another ability had been used that turn, and vice versa. No matter how many activated abilities a 'Walker has and no matter how it got any of them, only one of those abilities can be used per turn, on your turn, when you could normally play a sorcery. Conversely, any non-Planeswalker permanent may have any number of activated abilities activated any number of times as long as you can pay the cost, even if those abilities are normally on Planeswalkers but somehow ended up on a non-'Walker permanent.

For example, if a spell ever read --> Target planeswalker becomes a creature with power and toughness equal to the number of loyalty counters on it as you play this spell. <-- The target planeswalker would stop being a Planeswalker, but it would still have its abilities and suddenly you could go hog-wild with playing its abilities. Obviously such a spell will never see print due to that very thing, but that's not the point of my example.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

If a creature gains "planeswalkers" abilities, wouldn't it also gain the ability that it dies when it has no loyalty counters on it? Therefor his Experiment Kraj would kill itself? (Because it doesn't start with any on it?)

Otherwise this would be a very large glitch in mtg.
No it would not. That rule only applies to planeswalkers. Gaining the abilities from a planeswalker does not make it a planeswalker.

704.5i If a planeswalker has loyalty 0, it's put into its owner's graveyard.

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DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.

Wouldn't this mean that Experiment Kraj can NOT use the abilities of a planeswalker, because he can not use "Loyalty Counters", the rules states Loyalty is for Planewalkers only.

You would think this is like trying to cast "gain life" on a creature.
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.

Wouldn't this mean that Experiment Kraj can NOT use the abilities of a planeswalker, because he can not use "Loyalty Counters", the rules states Loyalty is for Planewalkers only.

You would think this is like trying to cast "gain life" on a creature.

"Loyalty" is not the same thing as "Loyalty Counters." Experiment Kraj never has Loyalty (unless it somehow becomes a Planeswalker), but it can have any number of Loyalty Counters on it, just like a noncreature permanent can have +1/+1 counters on it.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.

Wouldn't this mean that Experiment Kraj can NOT use the abilities of a planeswalker, because he can not use "Loyalty Counters", the rules states Loyalty is for Planewalkers only.

You would think this is like trying to cast "gain life" on a creature.

Do not take the rules out of context. Simply quoting snippets without looking at the scope of the rule will lead to wrong conclusions.
You are right that only planeswalkers have the characteristic "Loyalty". But it is only used when a Planeswalker enters the battlefield; it is used to determine how many loyalty counters are placed on the permanent.
The actual payment of the ability consists of putting on or removing loyalty counters, and nowhere do the rules say that a creature cannot have this action performed on it.

Life is something only a player can gain or lose. If you ever manage to direct a life gaining effect at a creature (for that you'd have to turn a creature into a player), kudos to you.

Addendum:
107.7. Each activated ability of a planeswalker has an arrow-shaped loyalty symbol in its cost. Positive loyalty symbols point upward and feature a plus sign followed by a number or an X. Negative loyalty symbols point downward and feature a minus sign followed by a number or an X. [+N] means “Put N loyalty counters on this permanent,” and [-N] means “Remove N loyalty counters from this permanent.”

208.1. Each planeswalker card has a loyalty number printed in its lower right corner. This indicates its loyalty while it’s not on the battlefield, and it also indicates that the planeswalker enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters on it.

DCI L2 Judge "When nothing remains, everything is equally possible." - One With Nothing
The reason i say this is beacuse:

Loyalty
1. Part of a card that only planeswalkers have. A planeswalker card’s loyalty is printed in its lower right corner. See rule 208, “Loyalty.”
2. A characteristic that only planeswalkers have. See rule 306.5.

If that box with the number is literally the cards loyalty, and a creature doesn't have that "part of the card" shouldn't it not be able to gain or lose loyalty counters. because it doesn't have that part of the card?

Honestly, whether or not you try to pull this in a tournament I highly doubt you can argue it through to work.

I honestly believe that the statement "A characteristic that only planeswalkers have" is stated there to let you know even if you try and manage you way to get these abilities onto a creature they will be rendered useless because that creature can't gain or lose loyalty counters, whether the rules states it or not.

That is an opinion I will keep and stand by even if its wrong.
You are right that only planeswalkers have the characteristic "Loyalty". But it is only used when a Planeswalker enters the battlefield; it is used to determine how many loyalty counters are placed on the permanent.

This is slightly misleading. A Planeswalker also has loyalty in play; it is not just a characteristic used to determine how many counters it enters play with. Unlike Kraj (which doesn't have Loyalty, just Loyalty counters), a Planeswalker's Loyalty is determined by the number of counters on it.

[INDENT]120.1b The number of loyalty counters on a planeswalker on the battlefield indicates how much loyalty it has. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. See rule 704.[/INDENT]
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

Loyalty
1. Part of a card that only planeswalkers have. A planeswalker card’s loyalty is printed in its lower right corner. See rule 208, “Loyalty.”
2. A characteristic that only planeswalkers have. See rule 306.5.

If that box with the number is literally the cards loyalty, and a creature doesn't have that "part of the card" shouldn't it not be able to gain or lose loyalty counters. because it doesn't have that part of the card?

Honestly, whether or not you try to pull this in a tournament I highly doubt you can argue it through to work.

I honestly believe that the statement "A characteristic that only planeswalkers have" is stated there to let you know even if you try and manage you way to get these abilities onto a creature they will be rendered useless because that creature can't gain or lose loyalty counters, whether the rules states it or not.

That is an opinion I will keep and stand by even if its wrong.

What you believe is irrelevant. The rules say what they say. In order to play a planeswalker's ability, the permanent doesn't need to have "Loyalty", it only needs to have loyalty counters.
There are precedents for permanents to have counters on them that are useless. Look at Llanowar Reborn. Power and Toughness are demonstrably characteristics that lands do not have. And yet we have here a land that enters the battlefield with a (completely useless on its own) +1/+1-counter!

This combo works, and it has been consistently ruled across the boards that it works.
DCI L2 Judge "When nothing remains, everything is equally possible." - One With Nothing
The reason i say this is beacuse:

Loyalty
1. Part of a card that only planeswalkers have. A planeswalker card’s loyalty is printed in its lower right corner. See rule 208, “Loyalty.”
2. A characteristic that only planeswalkers have. See rule 306.5.

If that box with the number is literally the cards loyalty, and a creature doesn't have that "part of the card" shouldn't it not be able to gain or lose loyalty counters. because it doesn't have that part of the card?

Honestly, whether or not you try to pull this in a tournament I highly doubt you can argue it through to work.

I honestly believe that the statement "A characteristic that only planeswalkers have" is stated there to let you know even if you try and manage you way to get these abilities onto a creature they will be rendered useless because that creature can't gain or lose loyalty counters, whether the rules states it or not.

That is an opinion I will keep and stand by even if its wrong.

Power and toughness is a characteristic only creatures have, but that doesn't mean counters that modify p/t can only exist on creatures. I once again reference Llanowar Reborn.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

I believe that you think it works.
Power and toughness is a characteristic only creatures have, but that doesn't mean counters that modify p/t can only exist on creatures. I once again reference Llanowar Reborn.

This is true, but the +1/+1 counter does not benefit the land until its turned into a creature or moved to a creature (which has charateristic that the +1/+1 counter would benifit.)

Which is the same for a creature with loyalty counters (turn it into a planeswalker or give the counters to a planeswalker so it can have the characteristic to use them, but the creature cant gain the counters to use them in the first place by using the ability)

Again my opinion
I believe that you think it works.

You are mistaken. I know that it works. That is different.
You want to prove that it doesn't work? Then convince me with a logic interaction between rules leading to the conclusion that this combo does not work.

I'm all ears.

:whatsthis
DCI L2 Judge "When nothing remains, everything is equally possible." - One With Nothing
This is true, but the +1/+1 counter does not benefit the land until its moved to a creature that has the charateristic that the +1/+1 counter would benifit.

Which is the same for a planeswalker and loyalty counters.

Exactly. The Loyalty Counters on Kraj don't actually modify any characteristics of the Kraj, because it doesn't have Loyalty and can't unless it becomes a Planeswalkers. However, the Counters can still be placed upon and removed from Kraj as a cost for the abilities that it now has thanks to creature-Jace having a +1/+1 counter on it, because the ability, while inherently on a Planeswalker, doesn't care what its source is, and it doesn't care whether or not the object that is the source has any Loyalty, only that it can have counters being placed on it (that is, if Tatterkiet somehow gained PW abilities, it couldn't ever do the +cost ability).
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

This combo works, and it has been consistently ruled across the boards that it works.

You are mistaken. I know that it works. That is different.

Then maybe you can help me. Of course I can put into my own words that because Kraj isn't a Planeswalker, that he doesn't need to have Loyalty to use the Planeswalker's activated abilites without loyalty, and that he isn't bound by the rules of those permanents. I don't think my own words are going to be enough to satisfy my opponent if I beat them with this combo that they disagree with.

Nerphice himself is a perfect example (no offense, Nerphice :D ). He doesn't know how the rule works, but so far, we (I) can't explain it to him in a way that is concrete and unable to be misinterperated using the rules.

Suppose I make this play. A judge is called. The judge rules in favor of my opponent, but can't quote what rule he/she is using to determine this, even though I know the combo works. What happens? Better yet, How would a High-Level (4, maybe? I'm not sure how it goes) judge at a major event explain this interaction?

When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done? ;)

btw, Nerphice. If you could please stop arguing in my thread, that would be very appreciated. I know that this combo works, and clearly so do other posters in this thread, and others in the past. I heard it worked in the first place, which is why I'm asking how it works. Arguing to the contratry is only causing other posters to respond to you, which is not doing anything for me getting closer to a solid anwer to my question. I'm just looking for an anwser that works, not a debate. Thanks for your understanding.
Then maybe you can help me. Of course I can put into my own words that because Kraj isn't a Planeswalker, that he doesn't need to have Loyalty to use the Planeswalker's activated abilites without loyalty, and that he isn't bound by the rules of those permanents. I don't think my own words are going to be enough to satisfy my opponent if I beat them with this combo that they disagree with.

Nerphice himself is a perfect example (no offense, Nerphice :D ). He doesn't know how the rule works, but so far, we (I) can't explain it to him in a way that is concrete and unable to be misinterperated using the rules.

Suppose I make this play. A judge is called. The judge rules in favor of my opponent, but can't quote what rule he/she is using to determine this, even though I know the combo works. What happens? Better yet, How would a High-Level (4, maybe? I'm not sure how it goes) judge at a major event explain this interaction?

When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done? ;)

If your opponent tells you that it doesn't work, as him to find the rules that say counters can't be added or removed from a permanent just because it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic. Also, point him to the same card I've referenced twice as proof that a card can indeed have counters added to it and removed from it even if it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic.

Nerphice is an example of someone who stubbornly refuses to accept that the rules say what the rules say and do not say what he or she wants them to say, even when given proof that he or she is wrong.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

This is true, but the +1/+1 counter does not benefit the land until its turned into a creature or moved to a creature (which has charateristic that the +1/+1 counter would benifit.)

Which is the same for a creature with loyalty counters (turn it into a planeswalker or give the counters to a planeswalker so it can have the characteristic to use them, but the creature cant gain the counters to use them in the first place by using the ability)

Again my opinion

If Llanowar Reborn were to somehow copy the activated ability of Triskelion while remaining a land and not a creature (there's no card that does that, but there could be), then it could remove its +1/+1 counter to deal a point of damage, even though it doesn't have power and toughness. The presence of the counters is independent of the characteristics they affect.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
When it was explained across the boards that it works, how was it done? ;)

In whatever way it happens, the Planeswalker (we'll say Jace) becomes a creature. This could be done with Memnarch + Karn, Memnarch + March of the Machines, Mycosynth Lattice + Karn, or Mycosynth Lattice + March of the Machines. There are other ways, but one of those combos is the easiest ways to do it.

Then, the Planeswalker Creature is given a +1/+1 counter in some method, such as the natural activated ability of Kraj.

Now, since the Planeswalker Creature has a +1/+1 counter on it, it qualifies for the static ability of Kraj that grants Kraj the activated abilities of any creature with at least one +1/+1 counter on it.

Since the rules only say that a Planeswalker may use one of its abilities (any abilities, not just the printed ones) once per turn on your own turn only when you could normally play a sorcery and Kraj is not a Planeswalker, it is not subject to the 'once per turn blah blah' rule.

Since the cost of the abilities involves adding and removing loyalty counters and there is no rule prohibiting the use of Loyalty Counters on a permanent even if that permanent doesn't have the characteristic "Loyalty," you may add (and must start off with the +cost ability at least once) and remove Loyalty Counters to your heart's content.

The result is that a Kraj with the abilities of a Planeswalker can use any combination of any number of those abilities any number of times.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

If your opponent tells you that it doesn't work, as him to find the rules that say counters can't be added or removed from a permanent just because it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic. Also, point him to the same card I've referenced twice as proof that a card can indeed have counters added to it and removed from it even if it doesn't have the appropriate characteristic.

Sounds good. ;)

Here's the tough part. How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."

Also, something else to consider (and I know this is completely different, so don't let it sidetrack us). The ability now uses the stack, correct? Say I use Kraj to "+2: Each player draws a card." My opponent draws a Maelstrom Pulse, and casts it targeting Kraj. Can I continue to stack triggers of that on the stack, as well as triggers of "-10: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." (once I get that high), so my opponent is decked before the Pulse resolves?
Sounds good. ;)

Here's the tough part. How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."

Simple: Emphasize the fact that it's the permanent type "Planeswalker" that is causing the 'once per turn blah' effect on the abilities, not the abilities themselves that are causing such an effect.

Also, you do have to have Loyalty Counters to use the -cost abilities, so you have to start off using the +cost ability a few times. It's just that, since you can activate them with instant-level timing, you can do it a lot, and the fact that he's not a 'Walker is why.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

Also, something else to consider (and I know this is completely different, so don't let it sidetrack us). The ability now uses the stack, correct? Say I use Kraj to "+2: Each player draws a card." My opponent draws a Maelstrom Pulse, and casts it targeting Kraj. Can I continue to stack triggers of that on the stack, as well as triggers of "-10: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard." (once I get that high), so my opponent is decked before the Pulse resolves?

Yes; in fact, you can stack all these abilities before the opponent even gets to draw anything, because you can activate one ability in response to the last one before you pass priority, in which case nuking the source won't matter.
MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

How do we go from "Kraj can have Planeswalker Abilities on him." to "Kraj has Planeswalker abilities, and he can use them at instant speed however many times I choose without having to have loyalty counters, because he has that activated ability."

That may be a misunderstanding on your part. You need to play a +N ability in order to amass some loyalty counters on Kraj. The restriction still exists that you cannot play an ability unless you can FULLY pay the cost.
This rule is found in section 107. "Numbers and Symbols":
107.7.
Each activated ability of a planeswalker has an arrow-shaped loyalty symbol in its cost. Positive loyalty symbols point upward and feature a plus sign followed by a number or an X. Negative loyalty symbols point downward and feature a minus sign followed by a number or an X. [+N] means “Put N loyalty counters on this permanent,” and [-N] means “Remove N loyalty counters from this permanent.”

You cannot remove N loyalty counters unless it has at least N loyalty counters.

Other rules: In section 120 "Counters" we have this:
120.1b
The number of loyalty counters on a planeswalker on the battlefield indicates how much loyalty it has. A planeswalker with 0 loyalty is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. See rule 704.

Again, this only states how we interpret the existence on loyalty counters on planeswalkers. So a creature won't ever have loyalty. But no rule forbids the existence of loyalty counters on a creature. And to pay for the ability you don't "reduce loyalty", you remove loyalty counters. That can be done with any permanent that has such an ability and has enough counters to pay for the cost.

Next, for the restrictions:
306.7.
A player may activate an ability of a planeswalker any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of its activated abilities have been activated that turn.

This talks about any activated abilities a planeswalker has. Since the ability is not found on a planeswalker, but on a creature, the restriction doesn't apply.

Hope this helps.
DCI L2 Judge "When nothing remains, everything is equally possible." - One With Nothing
Again, this only states how we interpret the existence on loyalty counters on planeswalkers. So a creature won't ever have loyalty. But no rule forbids the existence of loyalty counters on a creature. And to pay for the ability you don't "reduce loyalty", you remove loyalty counters. That can be done with any permanent that has such an ability and has enough counters to pay for the cost.

In particular, after we turn Jace into a creature, we could then play Ixidron and turn him face down. At that point he will cease to be a planeswalker, and will become a 2/2 creature with no abilities, but he will still have exactly as many loyalty counters as he had when you turned him over. We could also make him only a land, or only an enchantment, through similarly convoluted procedures, and he'd keep the loyalty counters that way too. Counters and permanent types don't need to match.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
Tourney friend of mine states: "In order for a creature to have/gain loyalty counters, that creature must have loyalty. Only Planeswalkers have Loyalty. Whether or not you turn Jace into a creature and put the +1/+1 counter on him with Kraj, Kraj doesn't have Loyalty and thus cannot gain those type of counters. There is no official ruling written out yet, but it is to be made official soon and is already official in tournaments."

Also, since Jace becomes creature, he loses Planeswalker and his loyalty. The Memnarch says it's an artifact in addition to it's other types, but then Karn simply makes a non artifact creature an artifact creature. Nothing states it has it's additional types, and thus neither could use the abilities. If in fact what my friend here says is correct.
There is no official ruling written out yet, but it is to be made official soon and is already official in tournaments."

I counter that. I am an [O] source and the combo works. You can use the Kraj to copy the abilities of a planeswalker and then have the Kraj play them as many times as you want.

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DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

That's not what the judges told him. :\
That's not what the judges told him. :\

Errare humanum est
Errare humanum est

Cool story, brozer.
Tourney friend of mine states: "In order for a creature to have/gain loyalty counters, that creature must have loyalty. Only Planeswalkers have Loyalty. Whether or not you turn Jace into a creature and put the +1/+1 counter on him with Kraj, Kraj doesn't have Loyalty and thus cannot gain those type of counters. There is no official ruling written out yet, but it is to be made official soon and is already official in tournaments."

Also, since Jace becomes creature, he loses Planeswalker and his loyalty. The Memnarch says it's an artifact in addition to it's other types, but then Karn simply makes a non artifact creature an artifact creature. Nothing states it has it's additional types, and thus neither could use the abilities. If in fact what my friend here says is correct.

Tourney friend of yours is wrong on all counts.
  • There have been official rulings confirming this combo since Planeswalkers were released.
  • The characteristic loyalty is not required to put loyalty counters on a permanent. Why would it be?
  • Karn, Silver Golem does not overwrite types.

Source for that last one:
[indent]204.1b Some effects change an object's card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object's prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase "in addition to its types" or that state that something is "still a [card type]." Some effects state that an object becomes an "artifact creature"; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.

Example: An ability reads, "All lands are 1/1 creatures that are still lands." The affected lands now have two card types: creature and land. If there were any lands that were also artifacts before the ability's effect applied to them, those lands would become "artifact land creatures," not just "creatures," or "land creatures." The effect allows them to retain both the card type "artifact" and the card type "land."

Example: An ability reads, "All artifacts are 1/1 artifact creatures." If a permanent is both an artifact and an enchantment, it will become an "artifact enchantment creature."
[/indent]
Just to clarify...

If one was to make a planeswalker a creature with a +1/+1 counter... as long as it remains a creature, Kraj would be able to use any of the planeswalker's abilities as long as he can pay for them.

Thus, if there was a Jace-creature with a +1/+1 counter on it, Kraj would start with 0 loyalty counters... but (with priority) would then be able to put an arbitrary number of 'each player draws a card' abilities on the stack, adding 2 loyalty counters to Kraj for each ability activation. Then Kraj's controller could put the -10 loyalty counter ability on the stack as well, yes?

As long as the costs are paid and Kraj obtains the planeswalker-creature's abilities.

If, at some point, the planeswalker ceases to be a creature, Kraj loses all of those activated abilities. He retains however many loyalty counters he may have gained from those guys though.

Yes?

--S
Just to clarify...

If one was to make a planeswalker a creature with a +1/+1 counter... as long as it remains a creature, Kraj would be able to use any of the planeswalker's abilities as long as he can pay for them.

Thus, if there was a Jace-creature with a +1/+1 counter on it, Kraj would start with 0 loyalty counters... but (with priority) would then be able to put an arbitrary number of 'each player draws a card' abilities on the stack, adding 2 loyalty counters to Kraj for each ability. Then Kraj's controller could put the -10 loyalty counter ability on the stack as well, yes?

As long as the costs are paid and Kraj obtains the planeswalker-creature's abilities.

If, at some point, the planeswalker ceases to be a creature, Kraj loses all of those activated abilities. He retains however many loyalty counters he may have gained from those guys though.

Yes?

--S

Yep, that all looks right.
Since you noted that Kraj will lose the planeswalker abilities if the planeswalker ceases to be a creature, it might be worth noting that Kraj will also lose the planeswalker's abilities if the planeswalker loses all its +1/+1 counters for whatever reason.
From a Level 5 Judge on the official EDH forums:

Rule 212.9f says that activated abilities of Planeswalkers can only be played (shorthand--as a Sorcery and once per turn). It's the Kraj that has the ability, and activated abilities of creatures can be played as often as you can pay for them. The restriction is on PWs, and Kraj is not a PW.

There's really nothing more that I can point to to make it clearer or more well-referenced. There's no rule that says you can (or can't) play the activated abilities of creatures multiple times.

In fact, in Magic, you can do anything that doesn't have a specific restriction against it.


---

It looks to me like there wouldn't have to be much explaining if it comes up in a game. Cite the Planeswalker rules, then cite the rules for when activated abilites can be played.

To do it correctly, stack (>9000) instances of the +2 ability for each player to draw a card. Stack as many instances of the -10 ability as you need to deck your opponents. Let the -10 abilities resolve, then let one instance of the +2 ability resolve per opponent.

Honestly, I can't think of any other way to explain this. I just hope that some level 1 judge at my LGS doesn't try to contest this.
You'd only need one instance of the +2 ability to kill all your opponents, at least assuming they were all within your range of influence (and if not, you'd need to wait until the next turn to affect them at all).
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011