progenitus and pulmonic sliver both "trigger" because of a wrath of god effect. Can i "stack" them in the order that i choose so i can shuffle my library before stacking slivers on top of it?
This means i have to send pulmonic last so the other slivers still have that ability?
No. Once they trigger, it doesn't matter whether they retain the ability when it resolves. As long as it goes on the stack, its independent of its source.
That's the whole thing isn't it.
There's no "whenever" or "at" keyword which to my knowledge mark a triggered ability. Those are replacement effects.
I sent the question to wizard. i'll try to update this when i get an answer. Sub this thread to know the answer.
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I'm interested to know this one, too. Although I'm not confident in my understanding of this, I'll post my thought process here so it can be torn apart for instructional benefit. :P
The original event is "Put Pulmonic Sliver and Progenitus into your graveyard." (I'm assuming you're their owner.)
If you apply the Pulmonic Sliver replacement effect first, you get "Put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library and Progenitus into your graveyard."
If you apply the Progenitus replacement effect first instead, you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver into your graveyard."
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library... simultaneously somehow."
If I were to make a call, I'd take into account that "shuffle Progenitus into your library" is sorta the same as "put Progenitus into your library and shuffle your library simultaneously," and so I'd say that what you get in total is "Reveal Progenitus and shuffle it and Pulmonic Sliver into your library." But I don't really know.
[...]suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus[...] Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?
It's a good point but a poor scenario, IMO. In this case, I'm pretty sure it's the same (weird) result regardless of the order in which the replacement effects are applied.
Eh? Are you saying that "shuffle Darksteel Colossus in, then put Gravebane Zombie on top" has the same result as "put Gravebane Zombie on top, then shuffle Darksteel Colossus in"?
Or are you saying that regardless of which order the replacements are applied, you still end up putting Gravebane on top at the same time you shuffle Colossus in (thus ending up shuffling Gravebane in with the rest of your library)?
The latter is the conclusion that I think was reached in the earlier scenario. However, the point was that there is not an "order" imposed on the replacements at all - indeed, the rules don't specify how to create such an ordering, since they only specify ordering on an affected-object or affected-player basis.
(Also, in your scenario, I think you mean to use Pyroclasm, not Pyrohemia - Benevolent Unicorn doesn't apply to the latter.)
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library." (Keep in mind that this is all supposed to be done simultaneously.)
The problem is that the rules don't really support an ordering for replacement effects that don't appy to the same object.
Back to the Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus scenario - suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus (thanks to Control Magic, Bribery, whatever - it doesn't really matter). Now they both die simultaneously (from, say, Innocent Blood). Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?
Here's a scenario (and a question) I think demonstrates your point better: You play a Pyroclasm while you control a Phytohydra, a Furnace of Rath, and a Benevolent Unicorn and your opponent controls a Watchwolf. For your Phytohydra, you would like to apply Furnace of Rath's effect first and then Phytohydra's own effect; you don't want Benevolent Unicorn's effect to apply at all. For your opponent's opponent's Watchwolf, he or she would like to apply Benevolent Unicorn's effect first and then Furnace of Rath's effect. (Meanwhile, the Benevolent Unicorn is doomed no matter what you do.) You can't have it both ways (because applying Furnace of Rath's effect or Benevolent Unicorn's effect modifies the entire event, not just the event as it affects a single creature), so who wins?
I'm pretty sure you get to stack your graveyard from wrath of god effects.
217.1d If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller— or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
217.4c If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.
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Now, barring the absence of a rule otherwise I don't see why each owner couldn't decide the order the cards would go to the graveyard and then do the replacement effects of each as each would go (where applicable) following that order.
The cards don't enter the graveyard in an order. They enter the graveyard all at once - the rule you quoted shows that. Their owner gets to sort them, but only as they arrive. By the time that happens, all applicable replacement effects have already been applied - that happens before you move even one object.
yes, I know
think meta-rules for a second and indulge me
rule 217.4c implies that cards arriving simultaneously do so in an order
No, it does not. It explicitly states that all cards arriving in a graveyard in one event do so at the same time. That time is after all replacement effects are already applied.
There is simply no way to use the order they are sorted into in the graveyard as a guide for an order of applying replacement effects. None whatsoever.
I am extending the rules arbitrarily using a meta-rule methodology
to say that the owner may choose the order those cards will arrive in the graveyard prior to the actual implementation of the event
they arrive there in one of those orders simultaneously (as chosen by their owner)
I am extending the rules arbitrarily using a meta-rule methodology
to say that the owner may choose the order those cards will arrive...
now, if we could know what order they would arrive we can determine what replacement effects would be implemented when the event occurs...
You are using the word "order" in two ways. You are ordierng the cards in space (one on top of another in the graveyard) and in time (one before another) so that you can make this claim:
no, I'm saying the owner chooses the spatial order they would simultaneously arrive in the graveyard and uses that same order to implement the replacement effects.
I have 5 cards that would go to the graveyard (pretend there are no replacement effects on them)
217.4c doesn't care when I decide what spatial order those 5 cards will simultaneously arrive in the graveyard.
at issue in the OP's question is where do Progenitus and the slivers end up ordered in the library.
You may think that, but it isn't what you are saying. Besides, the order isn't chosen until after replacement effects. Please read everything before you respond.
"Decide" isn't the issue - "Arrange them in any order is." You can "decide" when you cast WoG, for all it matters to the rule. The point is, you can change that decision anytime before they actually move. That includes "after" applying replacements.
Even if your "ordering" scheme were true, and it isn't, it would not affect where Progenitus and the slivers end up. The slivers end up on top, in an order you choose. Progenitus gets shuffled into the rest.
I fail to see how this is not in compliance with the rules.
You're resolving the replacement effects and then ordering them once they arrive.
Ordering them prior to the replacement effects would have no bearing on the rules.
Cards going into the graveyard still follow the order chosen by the owner.
so the sliver ability somehow trumps Progenitus' ability?
why can't Progenitus end up on the top of the library?
why not follow the intent of 217.4c and 217.2d to their logical conclusion?
Progenitus shuffled in, then put slivers on top.
Replacement effects don't resolve.
Do you mean the going-to-graveyard cards?
You don't order them until they go to the graveyard. Try reading the rule for what it says, not what you want it to say.
They don't go to the graveyard until after all replacement effects have been applied and the modified event happens. There is no point in even discussing this. You are wrong.
They don't "follow" an order at all.
And this isn't the forum to discuss changing the rules.
Not really. The results happen at the same time.
Did you read what I first wrote?
We do. That doesn't mean what you think it does.
No. Read before you reply.
Sure they do. You use APNAP order. You are over-interpreting the first sentence of rule 419.9a. It doesn't mean that the rule applies individually to each object and/or player "affected" that way. It means it applies whenever an object and/or player is affected that way. Think about it - what would be the point of applying APNAP (see the last sentence) if the rule applied individually? There would only ever be one player, for each application of the rule.
Just change the first occurrence of the word "an" to "any," and you'll see what I mean.
Their controllers. But don't confuse "apply the replacement" with "perform the action in the replacement." All applying it does, is change what the next event is. Nothing actually happens, until it is done being changed. Then it all happens at once.
Take it from the top:
Wrath of god, progenitus and pulmonic slivers on the board.
Both go to the graveyard at the same time as wrath of god resolves.
2 or more cards entering the graveyard, you choose the order.
Replacement effects (not triggered) resolve (while wrath of god resolves tee hee) as they hit the graveyard. (ok they don't actually "resolve" but still funny).
And that's a customer support response i poseted, it's as close as it gets to an official response.
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So let's make a simpler scenario that doesn't involve shuffling:
- Player A controls a Gravebane Zombie.
- Player B controls a Clone, copying Gravebane Zombie, that player A owns.
- Damnation resolves.
Which card ends up on top of player A's library: Gravebane Zombie or Clone?
Does one player have a choice in the matter, or is it strictly up to APNAP?
And finally, what happens if we throw a Samurai of the Pale Curtain into the equation, so that there's a choice of replacements for each affected object? (Okay, I s'pose it might be more complicated rather than less when the Samurai is added.)
... Actually, I think I know the answer to this scenario beforehand. But I want to see other answers before I post mine. ;)