Replacement effects

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progenitus and pulmonic sliver both "trigger" because of a wrath of god effect. Can i "stack" them in the order that i choose so i can shuffle my library before stacking slivers on top of it?
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Most posts get a quick answer, should i mail this one to wizard?
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progenitus and pulmonic sliver both "trigger" because of a wrath of god effect. Can i "stack" them in the order that i choose so i can shuffle my library before stacking slivers on top of it?

Yes.
Progenitus and Pulmonic Sliver both have replacement effects. If a "Wrath of God" effect would send them both to your graveyard at the same time you may choose in which order they would go there. Then each replacement effect takes place.
This means i have to send pulmonic last so the other slivers still have that ability?
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This means i have to send pulmonic last so the other slivers still have that ability?

No. Once they trigger, it doesn't matter whether they retain the ability when it resolves. As long as it goes on the stack, its independent of its source.
That's the whole thing isn't it.

There's no "whenever" or "at" keyword which to my knowledge mark a triggered ability. Those are replacement effects.
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No. Once they trigger, it doesn't matter whether they retain the ability when it resolves. As long as it goes on the stack, its independent of its source.

There's nothing triggering in this scenario.

All the Slivers leave play simultaneously, so at the time they leave play, they all have the Pulmonic Sliver-granted replacement. You can put any or all of them on top of your library, in any order you choose.

As for the first question you asked, the reason you didn't get a clear answer quickly is because you've managed to hit one of those dark corners of the rules where not everything is obvious. (I asked a similar question a while back, involving Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus. Unfortunately, I don't remember the answer given at that time.)
That's the whole thing isn't it.

There's no "whenever" or "at" keyword which to my knowledge mark a triggered ability. Those are replacement effects.

Wow, I'm an idiot.

This is what happens when you try to answer rules questions on 3 hours of sleep. Inori's answer is correct. All the slivers leave play simultaneously.
I sent the question to wizard. i'll try to update this when i get an answer. Sub this thread to know the answer.
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I sent the question to wizard. i'll try to update this when i get an answer. Sub this thread to know the answer.

You have your answer. Two replacement effects--not triggered abilities--try to take place at once. You can order them as you choose, such as shuffling Progenitus into your library before putting all the Slivers, in the order you choose, atop your library.
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I'm interested to know this one, too. Although I'm not confident in my understanding of this, I'll post my thought process here so it can be torn apart for instructional benefit. :P


The original event is "Put Pulmonic Sliver and Progenitus into your graveyard." (I'm assuming you're their owner.)

If you apply the Pulmonic Sliver replacement effect first, you get "Put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library and Progenitus into your graveyard."

If you apply the Progenitus replacement effect first instead, you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver into your graveyard."

If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library." (Keep in mind that this is all supposed to be done simultaneously.)


If I were to make a call, I'd take into account that "shuffle Progenitus into your library" is sorta the same as "put Progenitus into your library and shuffle your library simultaneously," and so I'd say that what you get in total is "Reveal Progenitus and shuffle it and Pulmonic Sliver into your library." But I don't really know.
I'm interested to know this one, too. Although I'm not confident in my understanding of this, I'll post my thought process here so it can be torn apart for instructional benefit. :P


The original event is "Put Pulmonic Sliver and Progenitus into your graveyard." (I'm assuming you're their owner.)

If you apply the Pulmonic Sliver replacement effect first, you get "Put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library and Progenitus into your graveyard."

If you apply the Progenitus replacement effect first instead, you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver into your graveyard."

If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library... simultaneously somehow."


If I were to make a call, I'd take into account that "shuffle Progenitus into your library" is sorta the same as "put Progenitus into your library and shuffle your library simultaneously," and so I'd say that what you get in total is "Reveal Progenitus and shuffle it and Pulmonic Sliver into your library." But I don't really know.

Hmm. I'm still fairly sure that you'd choose which creature's replacement to apply first, but after reading your post I'm not 100%, so I'd like an [o] response as well...
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Lol, you quoted me just before I made some ninja edits. There were no important changes, though, just cosmetic ones.
The problem is that the rules don't really support an ordering for replacement effects that don't apply to the same object. Normally, the controller of the affected object chooses which replacement effect to apply first - but here there's more than one affected object. Further, they might not even have the same controller. Back to the Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus scenario - suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus (thanks to Control Magic, Bribery, whatever - it doesn't really matter). Now they both die simultaneously (from, say, Innocent Blood). Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?

If I remember right, nobody got to choose - rocketnia is right that player A ends up "simultaneously putting Gravebane Zombie on top of your library and shuffling Darksteel Colossus in", which has the net effect of shuffling both cards into your library. But you certainly should not quote me on that.
[...]suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus[...] Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?

It's a good point but a poor scenario, IMO. In this case, I'm pretty sure it's the same (weird) result regardless of the order in which the replacement effects are applied.

EDIT:

Here's a scenario (and a question) I think demonstrates your point better: You play a Pyroclasm while you control a Phytohydra, a Furnace of Rath, and a Benevolent Unicorn and your opponent controls a Watchwolf. For your Phytohydra, you would like to apply Furnace of Rath's effect first and then Phytohydra's own effect; you don't want Benevolent Unicorn's effect to apply at all. For your opponent's opponent's Watchwolf, he or she would like to apply Benevolent Unicorn's effect first and then Furnace of Rath's effect. (Meanwhile, the Benevolent Unicorn is doomed no matter what you do.) You can't have it both ways (because applying Furnace of Rath's effect or Benevolent Unicorn's effect modifies the entire event, not just the event as it affects a single creature), so who wins?

Again, if there's a fundamental misunderstanding in the way I posed this scenario, I'd be glad to know.
It's a good point but a poor scenario, IMO. In this case, I'm pretty sure it's the same (weird) result regardless of the order in which the replacement effects are applied.

Eh? Are you saying that "shuffle Darksteel Colossus in, then put Gravebane Zombie on top" has the same result as "put Gravebane Zombie on top, then shuffle Darksteel Colossus in"?

Or are you saying that regardless of which order the replacements are applied, you still end up putting Gravebane on top at the same time you shuffle Colossus in (thus ending up shuffling Gravebane in with the rest of your library)?

The latter is the conclusion that I think was reached in the earlier scenario. However, the point was that there is not an "order" imposed on the replacements at all - indeed, the rules don't specify how to create such an ordering, since they only specify ordering on an affected-object or affected-player basis.

(Also, in your scenario, I think you mean to use Pyroclasm, not Pyrohemia - Benevolent Unicorn doesn't apply to the latter.)
Eh? Are you saying that "shuffle Darksteel Colossus in, then put Gravebane Zombie on top" has the same result as "put Gravebane Zombie on top, then shuffle Darksteel Colossus in"?

Or are you saying that regardless of which order the replacements are applied, you still end up putting Gravebane on top at the same time you shuffle Colossus in (thus ending up shuffling Gravebane in with the rest of your library)?

The second one.

The latter is the conclusion that I think was reached in the earlier scenario. However, the point was that there is not an "order" imposed on the replacements at all - indeed, the rules don't specify how to create such an ordering, since they only specify ordering on an affected-object or affected-player basis.

Hmm... I didn't really imagine "the replacement effects are both applied first" could be an option, but I suppose it is, for all we know.

What I figure is that if two replacement effects apply without a specific one being applied before the other, most of the time it's because they affect different objects, and so, usually, they would be interchangeable if one of them had to happen first. Applying two interchangeable replacement effects without an order appears to be the same thing as applying them in some particular but unimportant order.

Both of the scenarios we had so far seemed to me like they were of this interchangeable sort too, which is why I brought up a scenario which intentionally posed a conflict between noninterchangeable, apparently unordered replacement effects.


Hmm, thinking about this a bit more, I've found an answer to this "unordered" quandary... which isn't necessarily to say it's a right answer: If the game is having more than one player choose a replacement effect to apply, then golden rule [CR103.4] kicks in, and players decide in APNAP order. The active player "makes any choices required," so he or she chooses replacement effects and applies them one at a time until there are no more replacement effects that replace parts of the event that affect permanents he or she controls. Then the rest of the players do this in turn order.

In my scenario, this would mean that I (controller of Pyrohemia, so presumably the active player) would choose to apply Furnace of Rath's replacement effect and then Phytohydra's replacement effect. Then Watchwolf's controller would begrudgingly apply Benevolent Unicorn's effect and watch the Watchwolf die.


(Also, in your scenario, I think you mean to use Pyroclasm, not Pyrohemia - Benevolent Unicorn doesn't apply to the latter.)

Whoops, yep, that's what I meant. I even looked in Gatherer find out which "pyro" card I was looking for, and I still got it wrong, lol. *edits*
If you apply both of them (in either order), you get "Reveal Progenitus, shuffle it into your library, and put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library." (Keep in mind that this is all supposed to be done simultaneously.)

Correct. Just like Enlighten Tutor tells you to shuffle your library while the card you just found is still in it. (And no, the word "then" isn't needed; it just makes it clearer what has to happen.)

It isn't defined in the rules, but when the net effect is "shuffle your library but keep track of card X so you can do something with it," you actually can keep track of card X. Essentially, in this scenario you are told to simultaneaously put two cards into your library and randomize it EXCEPT for the one card you were told to keep track of. It goes on top.

The problem is that the rules don't really support an ordering for replacement effects that don't appy to the same object.

Sure they do. You use APNAP order. You are over-interpreting the first sentence of rule 419.9a. It doesn't mean that the rule applies individually to each object and/or player "affected" that way. It means it applies whenever an object and/or player is affected that way. Think about it - what would be the point of applying APNAP (see the last sentence) if the rule applied individually? There would only ever be one player, for each application of the rule.

Just change the first occurrence of the word "an" to "any," and you'll see what I mean.
Back to the Gravebane Zombie and Darksteel Colossus scenario - suppose that player A owns both, but player B controls the Colossus (thanks to Control Magic, Bribery, whatever - it doesn't really matter). Now they both die simultaneously (from, say, Innocent Blood). Who chooses in which "order" to apply the replacements?

Their controllers. But don't confuse "apply the replacement" with "perform the action in the replacement." All applying it does, is change what the next event is. Nothing actually happens, until it is done being changed. Then it all happens at once.
Here's a scenario (and a question) I think demonstrates your point better: You play a Pyroclasm while you control a Phytohydra, a Furnace of Rath, and a Benevolent Unicorn and your opponent controls a Watchwolf. For your Phytohydra, you would like to apply Furnace of Rath's effect first and then Phytohydra's own effect; you don't want Benevolent Unicorn's effect to apply at all. For your opponent's opponent's Watchwolf, he or she would like to apply Benevolent Unicorn's effect first and then Furnace of Rath's effect. (Meanwhile, the Benevolent Unicorn is doomed no matter what you do.) You can't have it both ways (because applying Furnace of Rath's effect or Benevolent Unicorn's effect modifies the entire event, not just the event as it affects a single creature), so who wins?

Again, not clearly in the rules: but each player applies the full effect of each replacement to the event as it affects ALL of their own creatures and/or selves AT THE SAME TIME. So each player can order Furnace and Unicorn differently, but they have to be the same way for all of one player's creatures. This is because the rule says, paraphrased, "A player with such a choice chooses one effect to apply." And, as I said before, this choice refers to all applicible replacement effects at that moment.
I'm pretty sure you get to stack your graveyard from wrath of god effects. Personnaly i'm thinking they resolve in the order you stack them to the graveyard but i'm waiting on a confirmation from wizard still.

How would this work if you can't choose the order anyway?
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I'm pretty sure you get to stack your graveyard from wrath of god effects.

You do.

When multiple objects enter the same zone as a result of a single effect, their owner orders them in the destination zone. They still all leave the departure zone (in play, in this case) at once. After the creatures are put into the graveyard, the Wrath of God card is put into its owner's graveyard on top of all the destroyed creatures.
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217.1d If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller— or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.

so Progenitus opts to be revealed and then shuffled into the library
and the slivers put on top of the library

217.4c If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.

now, the rules do not explain how to simultaneously move some non-slivers to the graveyard, some slivers to the top of the library and a Progenitus into the library but the implication in 217.4c is that cards going simultaneously to the graveyard arrive in some order decided by their owner. Now, barring the absence of a rule otherwise I don't see why each owner couldn't decide the order the cards would go to the graveyard and then do the replacement effects of each as each would go (where applicable) following that order.

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Now, barring the absence of a rule otherwise I don't see why each owner couldn't decide the order the cards would go to the graveyard and then do the replacement effects of each as each would go (where applicable) following that order.

The cards don't enter the graveyard in an order. They enter the graveyard all at once - the rule you quoted shows that. Their owner gets to sort them, but only as they arrive. By the time that happens, all applicable replacement effects have already been applied - that happens before you move even one object.
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The cards don't enter the graveyard in an order. They enter the graveyard all at once - the rule you quoted shows that. Their owner gets to sort them, but only as they arrive. By the time that happens, all applicable replacement effects have already been applied - that happens before you move even one object.

yes, I know

think meta-rules for a second and indulge me

rule 217.4c implies that cards arriving simultaneously do so in an order
what order are they put in the graveyard? owner's choice

now they also simultaneously leave the play zone
originally all are headed to the graveyard
but some of them receive alternate destinations by replacement effects

if we would put multiple cards into the graveyard simultaneously, we would decide what order they arrive (they still arrive simultaneously but they are put in ordered by their owner's choice)

now, if we would decide the order they would arrive there prior to their actual move there and then implement replacement effects on those who would end up elsewhere in that same order but implement these ordered effects in order but have it simultaneously implemented gamewise, I don't see this being a problem.

eg.
gamewise cards A, B, C, & D arrive in the graveyard simultaneously
but they arrive there in whatever order their owner likes
in reality we must physically move them to the physical area reserved for the graveyard in an order
one after the other which is not simultaneous in reality, but in game terms time stopped and they simultaneously appear in that order in the graveyard

using the same rationale we should be able to order them prior to the event resolving gamewise
and implement the replacement effects in that chosen order such that once the cards arrive in the graveyard or other location they are already in the order as decided by the owners or replacement effects.

therefore we could opt to shuffle Progenitus first then put the slivers on top
or put some slivers on top then shuffle Progenitus (which will also shuffle the already placed slivers in too) and then place the remaining slivers on top or put all slivers on top then shuffle Progenitus.

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yes, I know

think meta-rules for a second and indulge me

rule 217.4c implies that cards arriving simultaneously do so in an order

No, it does not. It explicitly states that all cards arriving in a graveyard in one event do so at the same time. That time is after all replacement effects are already applied.

There is simply no way to use the order they are sorted into in the graveyard as a guide for an order of applying replacement effects. None whatsoever.
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No, it does not. It explicitly states that all cards arriving in a graveyard in one event do so at the same time. That time is after all replacement effects are already applied.

cards A - B - C - D go to the graveyard simultaneously
they do so in an order decided by their owner

there are 4! ways to order them
they arrive there in one of those orders simultaneously (as chosen by their owner)

this is not inconsistant with the rules

I am extending the rules arbitrarily using a meta-rule methodology
to say that the owner may choose the order those cards will arrive in the graveyard prior to the actual implementation of the event

having the decision made prior to the event has no bearing on the rules
217.4c doesn't care when the owner decides what order they arrive in the graveyard, just that they arrive there simultaneously in that order.

now, if we could know what order they would arrive we can determine what replacement effects would be implemented when the event occurs and determine the gamestate result by implementing them in that same order and changing the game state to the final result as the event occurs

Cards A, B, C, & D are creatures in play and WoG occurs
assuming no replacement effects they arrive in the graveyard simultaneously in an order decided by their owner(s)

now lets assume Card A is Progenitus
B, C, & D will all still arrive in some order in the graveyard simultaneously
at the same moment Card A will arrive in the library with some random order

the rules let us choose the order we put the cards in the graveyard

if we make the choice for A-D prior to the event and then effect the event
the 4 cards arrive in the graveyard in that order (this does not go against 217.4c in any way)

if we could do this ordering with A-D where A is Progenitus and implement the replacement effects in that same chosen order, this does not hurt anything, B-D still end up in the graveyard in the chosen order (as provided for in 217.4c) and A ends up at some random point in the library.

There is simply no way to use the order they are sorted into in the graveyard as a guide for an order of applying replacement effects. None whatsoever.

this does not.
replacement effects still apply as much as they can. if multiple effects apply to the same object, there are rules about their application.
the problem is that two (or more) objects are arriving in the same zone with conflicting instructions on what order to arrive in because their going to the graveyard has been replaced.
Progenitus wants to go to some random point in the library (any place from the bottom to the top)
the slivers want to go to the top of the library

we need to have a way to determine what order they will appear in the library and my method seems as good as any
realistically, there should be a rule handling this under 217.2

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I am extending the rules arbitrarily using a meta-rule methodology
to say that the owner may choose the order those cards will arrive in the graveyard prior to the actual implementation of the event

I know I'm new here and am still trying to learn everything(hoping to pass my judge test on Sat.) but WHAT? Are you just wanting to do a mental exercise on what would happen or is this actually some rule I've never heard of?
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they arrive there in one of those orders simultaneously (as chosen by their owner)

...

I am extending the rules arbitrarily using a meta-rule methodology
to say that the owner may choose the order those cards will arrive...

You are using the word "order" in two ways. You are ordierng the cards in space (one on top of another in the graveyard) and in time (one before another) so that you can make this claim:

now, if we could know what order they would arrive we can determine what replacement effects would be implemented when the event occurs...

First, the two orders are totally unrelated. Second, the cards are ordered in space only. Third, you don't wait until after "they would arrive" to "determine what replacement effects would be implemented" when. ALL of the replacement effects get "implemented" before any cards move, and before any orders are decided.
You are using the word "order" in two ways. You are ordierng the cards in space (one on top of another in the graveyard) and in time (one before another) so that you can make this claim:

no, I'm saying the owner chooses the spatial order they would simultaneously arrive in the graveyard and uses that same order to implement the replacement effects.
Obviously, some cards won't end up in the graveyard, but the remainder are still ordered in a manner chosen by the owner.

I have 5 cards that would go to the graveyard (pretend there are no replacement effects on them)
217.4c doesn't care when I decide what spatial order those 5 cards will simultaneously arrive in the graveyard.
I can decide it prior to WoG resolving if I know what cards are going to end up in the graveyard

now, unfortunately, some of my permanents will be sent elsewhere via replacement effects
but if included them in the ordered list of cards...

now, If I use that same spatial order and effect any replacement effects on the first element of that listed order and proceed for each element in the list and determine where each card ends up, they will all arrive at an end state as chosen by me or by the respective replacement effect. This would stay true to the respective rules and replacement effects as much as could be.

at issue in the OP's question is where do Progenitus and the slivers end up ordered in the library.
217.2d tells us what to do with the slivers, they go on the top in any order
this rule was put in place to resolve the conflict of multiple slivers all wanting to go simultaneously to the top of the library (obviously only one can end up on the top)
Progenitus also wants to go to the library but to some random point within it. Anywhere from the top to the bottom.
217.2 does not have a rule on how to resolve this conflict between Progenitus' effect and the slivers' effect

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no, I'm saying the owner chooses the spatial order they would simultaneously arrive in the graveyard and uses that same order to implement the replacement effects.

You may think that, but it isn't what you are saying. Besides, the order isn't chosen until after replacement effects. Please read everything before you respond.

I have 5 cards that would go to the graveyard (pretend there are no replacement effects on them)
217.4c doesn't care when I decide what spatial order those 5 cards will simultaneously arrive in the graveyard.

"Decide" isn't the issue - "Arrange them in any order is." You can "decide" when you cast WoG, for all it matters to the rule. The point is, you can change that decision anytime before they actually move. That includes "after" applying replacements.

at issue in the OP's question is where do Progenitus and the slivers end up ordered in the library.

Even if your "ordering" scheme were true, and it isn't, it would not affect where Progenitus and the slivers end up. The slivers end up on top, in an order you choose. Progenitus gets shuffled into the rest.
You may think that, but it isn't what you are saying. Besides, the order isn't chosen until after replacement effects. Please read everything before you respond.

yes, the rules say if multiple cards arrive in the graveyard or top/bottom of the library simultaneously, you decide their spatial order. You're resolving the replacement effects and then ordering them once they arrive.


Ordering them prior to the replacement effects would have no bearing on the rules. Cards going into the graveyard still follow the order chosen by the owner. Cards going into the library top or bottom still follow the owners choice of order. It doesn't break the system and it conserves the intent.


"Decide" isn't the issue - "Arrange them in any order is." You can "decide" when you cast WoG, for all it matters to the rule. The point is, you can change that decision anytime before they actually move. That includes "after" applying replacements.

changing the rules to ordering them prior to applying the replacement effects shortcuts several rules without breaking their spirit. the card owner still determines what order they arrive in the yard or library.


Even if your "ordering" scheme were true, and it isn't, it would not affect where Progenitus and the slivers end up. The slivers end up on top, in an order you choose. Progenitus gets shuffled into the rest.

so the sliver ability somehow trumps Progenitus' ability?
why can't Progenitus end up on the top of the library?
why not follow the intent of 217.4c and 217.2d to their logical conclusion?

2 slivers going via replacement effect to the library can't both be on top
enter 217.2d - one goes on top then the other on top of it
this satisfies both replacement effects - the first only for a moment

if one could send some slivers to the top, then do the Progenitus effect then put the remaining slivers on top, it satisfies each replacement effect if only for a moment, the ordering still following the owner's choice as much as possible as evidenced in 217.2d and 217.4c.

Condor's Way
Progenitus shuffled in, then put slivers on top.

My Way
owner's choice of:
a) Condor's Way
b) some sliver replacements, then Progenitus, then remaining slivers on top
c) all sliver replacements, then Progenitus

my way still conserves the intent of owner's choice inherent in 217.2d, 217.4c, and 217.1d without changing the intent of the rules as written

ultimately, 217.2 does not tell us how to handle the OP's situation and either it should or a comprehensive framework be adopted to handle these sorts of interactions (like the one I suggest or something better)

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Got the answer from wizard, see my last post.

quoted from wizard:

You can choose the order these two things happen in, because you choose the order in which your creatures go to the graveyard (when they go at the same time).

Thanks, and Good Gaming!
You are Red/Blue!
does that count as an [o] response?

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After reading all the back and forth in this post I see the same basic rules principle. There is one controller of a set of simultaneous effects that trigger in response to being destroyed and replace their placement into a graveyard with various effects that send them to their owner’s library. That said, I agree with the conclusion that each and every effect is applied in whatever order their owner selects. If they want to put two slivers on top, and then shuffle in Progenitus (thus mixing in the slivers) and after that place the rest on top I fail to see how this is not in compliance with the rules.
I fail to see how this is not in compliance with the rules.

nothing in the rules tells us how to resolve the competing replacement effects of Progenitus and Pulmonary Sliver.

217.2d tells us how to handle the competing objects under the influence of Pulmonary Sliver's replacement effect

but how do we reconcile that with the Progenitus effect?

there aren't any rules that handle this particular case

somewhere a ruling was made concerning a similar situation
which becomes the de facto rule until something in the rules tell us how to handle it or a newer [o] ruling reverses the original ruling.

I started with the existing rules and tried to work backwards and find some framework to handle it without totally wrecking the rules as they are now, but my framework at present is not part of the existing rules but rather a possible modification/extension of them. It is totally possible that someone else could conceive of a different framework to handle this interaction. Additionally, messing with the rules can sometimes cause larger problems, sometimes a little rule will do more for less.

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DJ Vortex

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You're resolving the replacement effects and then ordering them once they arrive.

Replacement effects don't resolve.

Ordering them prior to the replacement effects would have no bearing on the rules.

"Them" ?

Do you mean the going-to-graveyard cards? You don't order them until they go to the graveyard. Try reading the ruel for what it says, not what you want it to say. They don't go to the graveyard until after all replacement effects have been applied and the modified event happens. There is no point in even discussing this. You are wrong.

Cards going into the graveyard still follow the order chosen by the owner.

They don't "follow" an order at all. And this isn't the forum to discuss changing the rules.
so the sliver ability somehow trumps Progenitus' ability?

Not really. The results happen at the same time.

why can't Progenitus end up on the top of the library?

Did you read what I first wrote?
why not follow the intent of 217.4c and 217.2d to their logical conclusion?

We do. That doesn't mean what you think it does.
Condor's Way
Progenitus shuffled in, then put slivers on top.

No. Read before you reply.
Take it from the top:

Wrath of god, progenitus and pulmonic slivers on the board.

Both go to the graveyard at the same time as wrath of god resolves.

2 or more cards entering the graveyard, you choose the order.

Replacement effects (not triggered) resolve (while wrath of god resolves tee hee) as they hit the graveyard. (ok they don't actually "resolve" but still funny).


And that's a customer support response i poseted, it's as close as it gets to an official response.
Condor: if you don't belive me ask them yourself. Hit "contact us" at the bottom of this page.
You are Red/Blue!
Replacement effects don't resolve.

ok fine, determine how the events the effect mods are modified then


"Them" ?

Do you mean the going-to-graveyard cards?

no, I mean all creatures that would go to the graveyard prior to the application of the replacement effects
i.e everything being affected by the one-shot effect generated by WoG
You don't order them until they go to the graveyard. Try reading the rule for what it says, not what you want it to say.

yes, I know - I'm talking about an extension/modification based on the existing rules to handle this situation in the absence of rules
They don't go to the graveyard until after all replacement effects have been applied and the modified event happens. There is no point in even discussing this. You are wrong.

again I know but there is a conflict in resolving some of the modded events


They don't "follow" an order at all.

what I mean is that the cards that end up not being affected by a replacement effect still follow the rules by being put in the graveyard in an order chosen by their owner

And this isn't the forum to discuss changing the rules.

granted, but many Rules Issues start in the Rules Q&A


Not really. The results happen at the same time.

but it does though because according to you there is no way for Progenitus to end up on top of the library, so you are subordinating its replacement effect to that of Pulmonary Sliver.


Did you read what I first wrote?

yes, I did. You say that Progenitus must subordinate its replacement effect to those of Pulmonary Sliver because by your interpretation the modded event says to move Progenitus to the library shuffling it while simultaneously putting the cards affected by Pulmonary Sliver on top of the library.
Rule 217.2 does not tell you how to do this modded event to the library

We do. That doesn't mean what you think it does.

I understand what it means presently. You're taking each rule as an isolated cog and saying they say what they say, no more no less. I'm saying look at the existing rules in a wholistic sense and expand the interpretation to find a way of resolving this modded event in a way that still would be consistant with their intent.

No. Read before you reply.

sorry, your way is shuffle Progenitus into the library AND put the slivers on top which is functionally identical to what I wrote unless you are somehow manually dexterous enough to shuffle Progenitus and the library as it existed prior to the event while simultaneously putting the sliver cards on top of it in whatever order you happen to want.

217.2d already tells you how to handle 2+ competing Pulmonary Sliver replacement effects
they go on top of the library in whatever order their owner desires
this inherently subordinates the replacement effect on each object put on top of the library to the ones above it

and for some reason you think that Progenitus' replacement effect should also be subordinated to all of them
but there is nothing in the rules to back that up.

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Sure they do. You use APNAP order. You are over-interpreting the first sentence of rule 419.9a. It doesn't mean that the rule applies individually to each object and/or player "affected" that way. It means it applies whenever an object and/or player is affected that way. Think about it - what would be the point of applying APNAP (see the last sentence) if the rule applied individually? There would only ever be one player, for each application of the rule.

It's entirely possible that I am overinterpreting. However, here's the sort of scenario I saw for applying APNAP:
- Both players control a Gravebane Zombie and a Leyline of the Void.
- Damnation resolves.
- Each player gets to choose whether to apply Gravebane's effect (putting the Zombie on top of the library) or Leyline's effect (RFG'ing the Zombie). However, NAP gets to see what AP does before making his/her own decision (and AP's choice might influence what NAP does). So yes, for each object, there's only one player involved in making choices, but since Damnation's destroying everything at once, both players have to make choices during the resolution of Damnation, and APNAP order decides who has to choose first.
Just change the first occurrence of the word "an" to "any," and you'll see what I mean.

Um, okay... but if WotC means "any", why didn't they write "any"? I read "an object" as "a specific object", especially since the sentence goes on to say "the affected object's controller...". It's entirely possible that that's not the interpretation that's intended, but I'm just working off a strict reading of the rule.
Their controllers. But don't confuse "apply the replacement" with "perform the action in the replacement." All applying it does, is change what the next event is. Nothing actually happens, until it is done being changed. Then it all happens at once.

This part I have no problem with. I can see that my scenario wasn't the most ideal for the question.

So let's make a simpler scenario that doesn't involve shuffling:
- Player A controls a Gravebane Zombie.
- Player B controls a Clone, copying Gravebane Zombie, that player A owns.
- Damnation resolves.
Which card ends up on top of player A's library: Gravebane Zombie or Clone? Why? Does one player have a choice in the matter, or is it strictly up to APNAP? And finally, what happens if we throw a Samurai of the Pale Curtain into the equation, so that there's a choice of replacements for each affected object? (Okay, I s'pose it might be more complicated rather than less when the Samurai is added.)

... Actually, I think I know the answer to this scenario beforehand. But I want to see other answers before I post mine. ;)
Take it from the top:

Wrath of god, progenitus and pulmonic slivers on the board.

Both go to the graveyard at the same time as wrath of god resolves.

2 or more cards entering the graveyard, you choose the order.

Replacement effects (not triggered) resolve (while wrath of god resolves tee hee) as they hit the graveyard. (ok they don't actually "resolve" but still funny).


And that's a customer support response i poseted, it's as close as it gets to an official response.
Condor: if you don't belive me ask them yourself. Hit "contact us" at the bottom of this page.

From what I've heard, customer support isn't a reliable source of rules information, especially for corner cases.

The ruling they gave you implies that creatures going to the graveyard "simultaneously" actually go in a discrete temporal order. If that were true, two Rotlung Reanimators going to the graveyard at the same time would only produce 1 3 Zombie tokens. In fact, both of their triggered abilities would trigger twice, producing 4 Zombie tokens. If you can decide to shuffle some of the slivers into your library (which I doubt), the reason customer support gave is not the correct reason.

Condor's argument is much more compelling. The fact that the word "then" is not important to *Enlightened Tutor can be seen from Bringer of the Black Dawn, for example. This means that the event [indent]"Shuffle Progenitus into your library, put Pulmonic Sliver on top of your library, put Metallic Sliver on top of your library, and put Venser's Sliver into your graveyard,"[/indent] regardless of which order you write those parts of the event, should result in Pulmonic Sliver and Metallic Sliver on top of your library with Progenitus and the rest of your library randomized beneath and Venser's Sliver in your graveyard.
reanimator's ability is a triggered one. It goes back in time to the moment it left that zone and sees both reanimators leave each giving 2 tokens.

This whole thread is about a replacement effect. It happens while an ability resolves where nothing can trigger, before a player gets priority.
You are Red/Blue!
So let's make a simpler scenario that doesn't involve shuffling:
- Player A controls a Gravebane Zombie.
- Player B controls a Clone, copying Gravebane Zombie, that player A owns.
- Damnation resolves.
Which card ends up on top of player A's library: Gravebane Zombie or Clone?

Gravebane Zombie
edit: wait, both are owned by Player A...so
the effect puts both on top of Player A's library and 217.2d says the owner gets to decide which goes on top
Why?

217.2d
Does one player have a choice in the matter, or is it strictly up to APNAP?

217.2d says the owner decides so yes one player has a choice in the matter
And finally, what happens if we throw a Samurai of the Pale Curtain into the equation, so that there's a choice of replacements for each affected object? (Okay, I s'pose it might be more complicated rather than less when the Samurai is added.)

Clone and Zombie have two replacement effects affecting them
Samurai has one affecting it.

Samurai gets RFG'd
Clone's controller decides which replacement effect to apply the other will not be relevant
Zombie's controller decides which replacement effect to apply the other will not be relevant

the choices are made by players for the objects they control in APNAP order

... Actually, I think I know the answer to this scenario beforehand. But I want to see other answers before I post mine. ;)

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

 

Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.