double strike life link question- I think it's a good question

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ok...

say i'm playing Rafiq of the Many and i also have a Battlegrace Angel in play as well. Now when i attack with any creature alone it's getting exalted +1/+1, double strike, and life link.

can someone tell me what would happen here if i i attack with my rafiq?

he would become a 4/4, double strike and have life link.

as far as the double strike goes if a 4/5 would block it, my rafiq would deal strike of 4, would stilll have 1/1 left on the blocker and then my 2nd strike would deal the final blow to it but my rafiq would die as well bc the power of 4 on the blocker will go through because it servived the first strike... is that right? also in that case i would gain the full 8 life of my attack.

now say my rafiq gets blocked by a 1/1, double strike doesn't kill it then attack the opponent because i don't have trample. but would the double strike kill it and deal the rest to it anyway and i gain the full 8or would i only gain 4 because the second strike doesn't have any affect?


this one is a confusing one, and i love the combo with battlegrace angel bc it would be a 5/5 with doulbe strike and life link.... unless it's blocked they lose 10 and i gain 10 =]


thanks!
can someone tell me what would happen here if i i attack with my rafiq?

he would become a 4/4, double strike and have life link.

Correction: a 5/5 double striking lifelinker. Each instance of Exalted is cumulative.

as far as the double strike goes if a 4/5 would block it, my rafiq would deal strike of 4, would stilll have 1/1 left on the blocker and then my 2nd strike would deal the final blow to it but my rafiq would die as well bc the power of 4 on the blocker will go through because it servived the first strike... is that right? also in that case i would gain the full 8 life of my attack.

If Rafiq was a 4/4, yes, that'd be correct. Since he's a 5/5 though, he kills the blocker on the first hit, and you only gain 5 life.

now say my rafiq gets blocked by a 1/1, double strike doesn't kill it then attack the opponent because i don't have trample.

Right.

...but would the double strike kill it and deal the rest to it anyway and i gain the full 8or would i only gain 4 because the second strike doesn't have any affect?

You would only gain life for the first strike, because once the creature dies there's nothing left for Rafiq to deal damage to, so he won't deal any.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

the big setup for me on this combo is actually, getting my Elspeth, Knight-Errant , Battlegrace Angel , and Rafiq of the Many out. you turn Battlegrace Angel from a 4/4 exalted to 5/5 with life link, into a beastly, 8/8 flyer with double strike and life link lol... that is a game changer there...

so far i have 2 rafiq, 2 battlegrace angel, and one Elspeth


common lucky booster packs! lol
how is he a 5/5?

he is normaly 3/3

do i get the +1/+1 for each creature with exalted?

rafiq and battlegrace angel both have it... do i get +2/+2 bc they both have have exalted?

if so then say the senerio is he is 5/5 being blocked by a 5/6 does my rafiq die bc the first shot didn't kill the blocker and he doesn't have first strike.

SEPERATE ?

if a doulbe strike is used on a first strike creature say a 1/1 with first strike, and is blocked by a 2/2, the 2/2 dies and the 1/1 doulbe strike/first strike wins. if the 1/1 creature didn't have first strike he would die but still kill the blocker...
how is he a 5/5?

he is normaly 3/3

do i get the +1/+1 for each creature with exalted?

rafiq and battlegrace angel both have it... do i get +2/+2 bc they both have have exalted?

Yes. Each instance of exalted will trigger and make a new +1/+1 effect, so it ends up being an effective +2/+2.

if so then say the senerio is he is 5/5 being blocked by a 5/6 does my rafiq die bc the first shot didn't kill the blocker and he doesn't have first strike.

Since Rafiq of the Many has double strike in this scenario, the two combat damage steps basically happen as follows:

  • Rafiq of the Many deals 5 damage to the 5/6 (after which point you gain 5 life).
  • Rafiq of the Many deals 5 damage to the 5/6 and the 5/6 deals 5 damage to Rafiq of the Many, simultaneously (after which point both of them are destroyed and you gain 5 life).


SEPERATE ?

Hmm?

if a doulbe strike is used on a first strike creature say a 1/1 with first strike, and is blocked by a 2/2, the 2/2 dies and the 1/1 doulbe strike/first strike wins. if the 1/1 creature didn't have first strike he would die but still kill the blocker...

Are you talking about something like a Double Cleave on a Boros Recruit? In this case, the combat damage steps go something like this:



It sounds like you think first strike and double strike combine to do something like this:

  • A 1/2 with double strike and first strike deals 1 damage to a 1/3.
  • The 1/2 with double strike and first strike deals 1 damage to the 1/3.
  • The 1/3 deals 1 damage to the 1/2 with double strike and first strike.


That's wrong. There are only ever two combat damage steps: the "first strike" one (if necessary) and the "normal" one. Double strike just makes the creature deal damage in both of those steps.
i was saying what if i bring in a creature that is 2/2 with first strike, and then i have rafiq in play as well. will my 2/2 kill a 2/4 and not be destroyed? he will have doubled strike but will both of them hit before the damage of the 2/4 creature kills him.

normaly with double strike my 2/2 would kill the 2/4 and still die bc the first wave won't kill it. but since this is a first strike creature (meaning i when i block or attack my damage is delt first), and i attack 2 times my damage should be dealt 2 time hitting first 2 times and my 2/2 should live.
i was saying what if i bring in a creature that is 2/2 with first strike, and then i have rafiq in play as well. will my 2/2 kill a 2/4 and not be destroyed? he will have doubled strike but will both of them hit before the damage of the 2/4 creature kills him.

No. Having both first strike and double strike is no different than just having double strike to begin with.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

ok, this my understanding of this is as follows:

double strike deals damage 2 times if needed first and normal combat damage.


first strike deals the first strike damage only and not both first and normal damage

That correct


zammm your all over this forum man haha... you have been a lot of help

Thanks!
Combat damage with at least one first striking or double striking attacking or blocking creature as the Declare Blockers Step ends:

1) Attacking and blocking creatures with first or double strike assign combat damage, which then gets dealt. Players get priority both before and after the damage is dealt.

2) Attacking and blocking creatures that assigned no first strike damage (including creatures that have gained first strike for some reason, and creatures that had 0 power - or less - so didn't assign damage despite having first strike) and those with double strike assign combat damage, which then gets dealt. Again, players get priority before and after...
M:tG Rules Advisor
zammm your all over this forum man haha... you have been a lot of help

Thanks!

You're most welcome.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

as far as the double strike goes if a 4/5 would block it, my rafiq would deal strike of 4, would stilll have 1/1 left on the blocker...

point of correction

the 4/5 blocker in this scenario is still a 4/5 after receiving the damage from Rafiq in the first Combat Damage Step, not a 1/1. Damage does not lower toughness (excepting damage from sources with Wither). The blocker is a 4/5 with 4 points of damage on it. When the damage on a creature equals or exceeds the creature's toughness, it is destroyed (which does nothing to an Indestructible creature). 4 does not exceed 5, so the blocker survives the first Combat Damage Step.

During the second Combat Damage Step, Rafiq assigns another 4 damage and the blocker assigns 4 damage to Rafiq. Then damage goes on the stack and resolves. Rafiq has 4 damage on him with a toughness of 4 so he's destroyed and the blocker now has 8 damage on him which is greater than his toughness of 5 so he's also destroyed.

Additionally, First Strike is redundant to Double Strike. If a creature has both, First Strike is superceded by Double Strike.

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1) Attacking and blocking creatures with first or double strike assign combat damage, which then gets dealt. Players get priority both before and after the damage is dealt.

2) Attacking and blocking creatures that assigned no first strike damage (including creatures that have gained first strike for some reason, and creatures that had 0 power - or less - so didn't assign damage despite having first strike) and those with double strike assign combat damage, which then gets dealt. Again, players get priority before and after...

So if a 2/2 was blocked by a 2/3, after the first strike damage, I could play a shock on the now 2/1, and have my 2/2 deal its regular combat damage to the player, right?
What if i had an attacking mogg fanatic? It wouldn't deal any regular combat damage if I'd sac'd it to do the 1 damage after first strike. Correct?
So if a 2/2 was blocked by a 2/3, after the first strike damage, I could play a shock on the now 2/1, and have my 2/2 deal its regular combat damage to the player, right?

Not quite, no. The creature would still be a 2/3 with 2 damage on it, as damage does not reduce toughness. Playing Shock on it at that point would kill it, but would not let it deal damage to the player, as a blocked creature remains blocked no matter what happens to the blocker, and blocked creatures don't deal combat damage to the player. (Barring abilities like trample.)

What if i had an attacking mogg fanatic? It wouldn't deal any regular combat damage if I'd sac'd it to do the 1 damage after first strike. Correct?

Yes, that's right. If you don't let it stick around until the regular combat damage step, it won't assign any combat damage.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

So if a 2/2 was blocked by a 2/3, after the first strike damage, I could play a shock on the now 2/1, and have my 2/2 deal its regular combat damage to the player, right?

First of all, damage does not reduce toughness. The 2/3 is still a 2/3. It just has two damage on it. You can however shock it to deal lethal damage to it. After that, you creature is still blocked but has no blocker and so will assign no damage in the second combat damage step unless it has trample.
What if i had an attacking mogg fanatic? It wouldn't deal any regular combat damage if I'd sac'd it to do the 1 damage after first strike. Correct?

Correct. A creature has to be in play when combat damage is assigned in order to assign damage. Assuming it doesn't die in the first combat damage step somehow, you could have the Mogg Fanatic assign combat damage to the first striker in the second damage step and then sacrifice it with damage on the stack. The damage it assigns in that case would still be dealt.
I know it doesn't reduce the toughness, I was just trying to find the words to say it only needed one damage to die.

But for a clearification, where I play, even a blocked doublestrike deals damage to the player if the blocking creature(s) would die in the first strike phase without doing lethal damage to the attacking creature.

say a 3/3 doublestrike is blocked by a 1/1.
-The blocker takes 3 and dies.
-The player takes 3.
(again, where I play)

Is that not how it works?
But for a clearification, where I play, even a blocked doublestrike deals damage to the player if the blocking creature(s) would die in the first strike phase without doing lethal damage to the attacking creature.

say a 3/3 doublestrike is blocked by a 1/1.
-The blocker takes 3 and dies.
-The player takes 3.
(again, where I play)

Is that not how it works?

Right, that is not how it works.

A creature that has been blocked remains blocked no matter what happens to the blocker, and blocked creatures can't assign damage to the defending player even if they don't have any blockers left. (Again, barring trample.)

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I know it doesn't reduce the toughness, I was just trying to find the words to say it only needed one damage to die.

But for a clearification, where I play, even a blocked doublestrike deals damage to the player if the blocking creature(s) would die in the first strike phase without doing lethal damage to the attacking creature.

say a 3/3 doublestrike is blocked by a 1/1.
-The blocker takes 3 and dies.
-The player takes 3.
(again, where I play)

Is that not how it works?

no, it doesn't work like that

a blocked creature can ONLY assign damage to its blockers unless it has Trample

note:
this also means that if I am blocked and the blocker dies (say Mogg Fanatic blocks then uses his ability) I can not assign any damage. I can only assign damage to my blockers and there aren't any so I can't assign damage. This is important because had the Mogg Fanatic blocked the lifelinked doublestriking Rafiq and then died before Rafiq could assign or deal damage then Rafiq gains no life as he dealt no damage.

if the creature is not blocked it deals damage to the player/planeswalker in both damage steps, but if is blocked it will not damage the player unless it has Trample or some ability that allows it to assign damage to the defending player/planeswalker when blocked.

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DJ Vortex

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DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Alright, thank you very much.
I am just about to leave for FNM and will keep that in mind for tonight.
Rules for assigning damage for attacking creatures:

[indent]310.2b An unblocked attacking creature that’s attacking a player will assign all its combat damage to the defending player. An unblocked attacking creature that’s attacking a planeswalker will assign all its combat damage to the planeswalker it’s attacking. If the creature isn’t currently attacking anything (if, for example, it was attacking a planeswalker that has left play), it will assign no combat damage.

310.2c A blocked creature will assign combat damage, divided as its controller chooses, to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it will assign no combat damage.[/indent]

Trample overrides this, letting a blocked creature with no blockers still assign damage to the defending player.

[indent]502.9c If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.[/indent]
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I have a question to add to this...

I just started playing MTG again after a long time off (Like, Portal long time off...) so clearly im rusty on my memory of the rules and flow of the game, but i've been playing with my brother to first off introduce him to the game (always good to get new players i think) but also to sort of have a no-pressure way of re-learning the rules, but we came into a snag last night when working out my new Exalted based deck... here's what happened...

I have just equipped 2 Behemoth Sledge to Marisi's Twinclaws and am attacking along with Exalted abilities making him an 8/10 with double strike, lifelink, and trample. Fun times i know...

My brother blocks with two creatures, don't remember the names just know that they had no enchantments or abilities or anything but one was a 2/3 and the other a 1/1.

My question is i obviously want to kill both creatures and hit him for a lot of life, but can someone please explain to me how this scenario would play out? how much life to i get from lifelink? where does the trample go with double strike? Please help me because I love this game and want to get back into it, but this just made me and my brother so frustrated we just quit and grabbed a beer laughing. And please don't say you'd just play an unsummon, i really do want help here. Thanks all!
I have a question to add to this...

I just started playing MTG again after a long time off (Like, Portal long time off...) so clearly im rusty on my memory of the rules and flow of the game, but i've been playing with my brother to first off introduce him to the game (always good to get new players i think) but also to sort of have a no-pressure way of re-learning the rules, but we came into a snag last night when working out my new Exalted based deck... here's what happened...

I have just equipped 2 Behemoth Sledge to Marisi's Twinclaws and am attacking along with Exalted abilities making him an 8/10 with double strike, lifelink, and trample. Fun times i know...

My brother blocks with two creatures, don't remember the names just know that they had no enchantments or abilities or anything but one was a 2/3 and the other a 1/1.

My question is i obviously want to kill both creatures and hit him for a lot of life, but can someone please explain to me how this scenario would play out? how much life to i get from lifelink? where does the trample go with double strike? Please help me because I love this game and want to get back into it, but this just made me and my brother so frustrated we just quit and grabbed a beer laughing. And please don't say you'd just play an unsummon, i really do want help here. Thanks all!

Just a handy tip, in the future just post the question in a new thread rather then necroing a 7 month old one. You will get a faster answer. Also if you'd like to know how to autocard, please see my sig.
Marisi's Twinclaws
Behemoth sledge

To answer your question:
A total of 12 damage will be done to your opponent and you will gain 16 life assuming no other spells or abilities are played.

First you will order the blockers(doesn't really matter that much in this scenario but it still must be done) you will assign lethal damage to each blocker in order during the first strike combat damage step. This means 3 damage to the 2/3 and 1 damage to the 1/1 and then you may assign all remaining damage to the player(4). You will gain 8 life.

During the Regular combat damage step your 8/10 trample will still be considered blocked but will be able to assign all damage to the player as there are no blockers still present on the battlefield. You will gain 8 life.
Level 3 Magic Judge "To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable." -Nafai, The Ships of Earth
I have a question to add to this...

I just started playing MTG again after a long time off (Like, Portal long time off...) so clearly im rusty on my memory of the rules and flow of the game, but i've been playing with my brother to first off introduce him to the game (always good to get new players i think) but also to sort of have a no-pressure way of re-learning the rules, but we came into a snag last night when working out my new Exalted based deck... here's what happened...

I have just equipped 2 Behemoth Sledge to Marisi's Twinclaws and am attacking along with Exalted abilities making him an 8/10 with double strike, lifelink, and trample. Fun times i know...

My brother blocks with two creatures, don't remember the names just know that they had no enchantments or abilities or anything but one was a 2/3 and the other a 1/1.

My question is i obviously want to kill both creatures and hit him for a lot of life, but can someone please explain to me how this scenario would play out? how much life to i get from lifelink? where does the trample go with double strike? Please help me because I love this game and want to get back into it, but this just made me and my brother so frustrated we just quit and grabbed a beer laughing. And please don't say you'd just play an unsummon, i really do want help here. Thanks all!

This probably should have been a new thread. Please don't necro 6-month old threads.

First, when he blocks, you assign the order of blockers. Let's say you put the 2/3 first and the 1/1 second.

When first strike combat damage is assigned, you must deal at least 3 damage to the 2/3. Assuming you want to hit the defending player for as much damage as possible, you need to assign 3 to the 2/3, 1 to the 1/1, and then you have 4 damage left over for the defending player.

You'll gain 8 life.

Then, when non-first strike damage is assigned, you just hit the defending player for 8 and gain 8 more life.
All Generalizations are Bad