A higher order of infinity?

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Your opponent has 10 poison counters, but she has a Platinum Angel. You have two Nacatl War-Pride in play with Latulla's Orders in hand. Your opponent, knowing this, wants to prevent you from being able to hit her with any creatures.

She also has Mox Lotus, Transcendence, Claws of Gix, and Ageless Entity in play. She taps the Mox Lotus for mana, sacrifices it to the Claws of Gix, and enters her combat step. She takes some amount of mana burn from the unspent mana of the Mox Lotus. This mana burn causes Transcendence to give her two life for every life she has lost. If this triggers the "you lose the game" static effect than she sacrifices the Transcendence to the Claws of Gix in response (to avoid an infinite loop with her Platinum Angel). The life gain triggers the Ageless Entity, so she puts some number of +1/+1 counters on the Ageless Entity. She then plays Carrion to sacrifice the Ageless Entity for some number of 0/1 tokens and then passes the turn, confident that you cannot get a creature through.

In addition to your two Nacatl War-Pride, you have Opalescence and Doubling Season in play. You attack with your Nacatl War-Prides, put their abilities on the stack, and then play two Cytoshape from your hand to turn both of them into Doubling Season.

Is your opponent able to block all of the creatures, or is there one that is unblocked that you can play the Latulla's Orders on to win the game?

I realize this question includes a card from an Un-set, but I feel that the members of this forum are best able to answer it.

Thank you very much

Scorpion Knight: High Armor, High Damage in Heroic Safe Haven: Stay near me and never get hit Eldritch Avenger: Crit Fishing at level 12, LFR friendly

The game of magic does not contain the concept of infinity and is thus not equipped to deal with it. Your question has no answer within the rules of the game.

If your opponent has a finite number of 0/1 tokens in play, and you attack with 2 war-prides, with opalescence + doubling season, then cytoshape the war-prides into doubling seasons as described in your situation, you will end up with more attacking creatures than there are 0/1 creatures (i am not about to do the calculation for you to find out exactly how many), and thus at least one of your war-prides will be unblocked and you can play latulla's orders on it.
For that matter, if your opponent has any finite number of creatures, a single Nacatl War-Pride will be sufficient for an unblocked creature.
This is an Un-game, so I'm going to have to use Un-logic and pretend infinity works as a number, okay?

Your opponent has a number of creature tokens equal to Ageless Entity's power, which was infinity x 2 + 4, due to all that lifegain. That's right, double infinity plus four. With three Doubling Seasons in play, you will get 8 Nacatl War-Pride tokens per creature your opponent controls by attacking with your Nacatl War-Pride. This means you will have infinity x 16 + 1 Nacatl War-Prides attacking, which is infinitely more than the number of creatures your opponent controls. You should be able to get a lot of them through.

I hope you got all that. :p
This means you will have infinity x 16 + 1 Nacatl War-Prides attacking, which is infinitely more than the number of creatures your opponent controls. You should be able to get a lot of them through.

(infinity x 16 + 1) is still "just" infinity. You would have an infinite number of attackers versus an infinite number of blockers, and no attacker would get through.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

(infinity x 16 + 1) is still "just" infinity. You would have an infinite number of attackers versus an infinite number of blockers, and no attacker would get through.

As an earlier post mentioned, the Comp Rules don't have "infinity" - you have to pick a real number.
As an earlier post mentioned, the Comp Rules don't have "infinity" - you have to pick a real number.

I am aware of that. I was operating under TheBestGamer's opening assumption (although I guess I could have made that more clear):
This is an Un-game, so I'm going to have to use Un-logic and pretend infinity works as a number, okay?

With a little math sprinkled in...

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

I realize that Magic does not have a concept of infinity, but mathematics does have a well defined concept of infinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity), and Magic is based on this mathematical system. This allows us to double the number of counters, for example, without defining what "double" means. The Comp rule do not have the concept of "52178" either, but you can have 52178 creatures.

Double infinity is still infinity, as is infinity plus four. This problem is attempting to set up a situation where one cannot create a one to one matching between the number of attackers and the number of blockers.

Consider the set of all the integers and all the real numbers. These sets both have an infinite number of members, but there is no one-to-one matching between them and the set of real numbers is much larger. My assumption is that if you attacked with a number of creatures equal to the number of real numbers, and I tried to block with a number of creatures equal to the number of integers, I would be unable to block all of your creatures because no one-to-one matching exists.

Scorpion Knight: High Armor, High Damage in Heroic Safe Haven: Stay near me and never get hit Eldritch Avenger: Crit Fishing at level 12, LFR friendly

I realize that Magic does not have a concept of infinity, but mathematics does have a well defined concept of infinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity), and Magic is based on this mathematical system.

It's true that Magic uses real-world mathematics, but it does not use infinity. Mox Lotus was printed in Unhinged because it just plain doesn't work within the normal rules of Magic. Your question has no answer within the normal rules of Magic. If you want an answer, you're going to have to resort to making it up yourself.

If you were worried about actually winning, you would have just used that Cytoshape to turn the Platinum Angel into a War-Pride and made your opponent lose the game from poison counters. Or attacked with the War-Pride and Cytoshaped the blocker into a Doubling Season to kill it.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Consider the set of all the integers and all the real numbers. These sets both have an infinite number of members, but there is no one-to-one matching between them and the set of real numbers is much larger.

Correct. But you are crossing a border here (from the denumerably infinite set of integers to the innumerably infinite set of real numbers), which you are not crossing if you multiply infinity by a finite number.
You have an infinite number of integers, but you can still enumerate them, i.e. it is possible to order them in such a way as to say, "this is the first integer", "this is the second integer", and so on.
This does not change if you simply double (or triple, or quadruple, or multiply with any finite number) the set. The enumeration may change, but the fact you can enumerate them will not change.

This is not possible for the set of real numbers, so the number of real numbers could actually be considered "a higher order of infinity" than the number of integers.

My assumption is that if you attacked with a number of creatures equal to the number of real numbers, and I tried to block with a number of creatures equal to the number of integers, I would be unable to block all of your creatures because no one-to-one matching exists.

This assumption is correct. However, no way to achieve this has been described yet.
(double the number of integers) is still equal to (the number of integers), so if you attack with (double the number of integers) creatures and the defending player "only" has (number of integers) creatures to block, he will be able to block all attackers.

And I guess this little digression about mathematics should probably come to a close pretty soon...

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

I'm willing to humor the question, especially since you went to so much trouble to create the scenario. The real problem is that the infinity that Mox Lotus provides is not defined. You seem to be assuming it's countable, but I don't see any indication of that.

Assuming it's countable, it's reasonable to say (in un-land) that you would get an uncountable number of attackers and one of them would be able to get through.

The first War-Pride trigger to resolve creates (countable) Doubling Seasons. The second to resolve creates (countable) tokens, but is affected by (countable) doubling effects, for a total of (countable) * 2^(countable). This can be seen to be uncountable since 2^(countable) is equivalent to the set of real numbers expressed in binary.

Now go back to the un-land from whence you came
(infinity x 16 + 1) is still "just" infinity.

No, it's not "just" infinity. Infinity behaves very strangely in mathematics, but there ARE a few things that you can do with it involving comparisons and such.

But this isn't the proper forum to get into a discussion of mathematics. This is the Rules forum, and as such, any time you are playing with Silver bordered cards, you have to expect some Rules to be bent and/or outright broken. Asking for a Ruling on something which inherently breaks the Rules is an impossible task. All we can give the OP is our opinions.

My opinion is that, despite there clearly being more attackers than blockers, there's never a point when you are assigning blockers that you will "run out" of blocking creatures. Therefore, no attacking creatures will get through unless the defending player chooses to let one (or more) through.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
I want to thank NereusRen for taking what was a serious question seriously.

The vast majority of judges who I've asked this question to have trivialized this scenario which we have put a long time into constructing. It's not easy getting higher orders of infinity without running afoul of the loop rules, even if you have to "cheat" to get infinity in the first place.

In my understanding there isn't a rule "There is no infinity in Magic". It is only a guideline. My opinion is that the guideline exists to prevent confusion in unbounded loops, and because there is no current way of attaining an infinite amount of anything.

I'm currently working on a situation that will generate an infinite number of creatures, with high probability, without using any un-cards, and without running afoul of the loop rules. It will, of course, require infinite time.

Scorpion Knight: High Armor, High Damage in Heroic Safe Haven: Stay near me and never get hit Eldritch Avenger: Crit Fishing at level 12, LFR friendly

Actually, there is precisely such a rule. From the glossary:
Infinity Rule (Informal)
There’s no such thing as “infinity” in the Magic rules. Occasionally the game can get into a state where a set of actions could be repeated forever. The “infinity rule” governs how to break such loops. See rule 421, “Handling ‘Infinite’ Loops.”

I'm currently working on a situation that will generate an infinite number of creatures, with high probability, without using any un-cards, and without running afoul of the loop rules. It will, of course, require infinite time.

I'm sure its been done (or at least tried) (Earthcraft & Squirrel Nest, etc)

There are probably more here
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=920139
I'm sure its been done (or at least tried) (Earthcraft & Squirrel Nest, etc)

That is an infinite loop which is DEFINITELY covered by section 421 of the Comp Rules. billyh is trying to create infinity WITHOUT involving section 421.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
I want to thank NereusRen for taking what was a serious question seriously.

By the way, before i responded in my post, i started going through the process of trying to evaluate the situation you described, using infinity. The problem is that inifinity is not a number. Multiplying infinity by 2 is a meaningless operation, as is putting into play infinity X 2 war-pride-doubling-seasons. Without mathematical tools like limits, it is not possible to work with infinity in any meaningful way. Thus, your situation either has no answer, or it needs to be redefined to use finite values, in which case the answer can be determined. I opted for the latter option and am sorry that you view "giving you a practical answer to an intractable question" as "not taking it seriously".
Mathematics aside, did anyone eve see that, regardless of an Un card...this situation wouldnt happen?

She takes some amount of mana burn from the unspent mana of the Mox Lotus.

You don't lose life due to mana burn.

o.o
this situation wouldnt happen?

Try again.
She taps the Mox Lotus for mana, sacrifices it to the Claws of Gix, and enters her combat step.

The ability is only functional while it is in play.
My mistake. I read it backwards. Though it was sacced after the loss of life from mana burn.
She taps the Mox Lotus for mana, sacrifices it to the Claws of Gix, and enters her combat step.

Mox Lotus is not in play when the first main phase ends. The mana burn will occur.
The problem is that inifinity is not a number. Multiplying infinity by 2 is a meaningless operation, as is putting into play infinity X 2 war-pride-doubling-seasons. Without mathematical tools like limits, it is not possible to work with infinity in any meaningful way.

It's not a matter of dealing with infinity as a number but working with cardinalities of sets.

(And in mathematics one can in a meaningful way define "infinity" and work with it as a number).

If Mox Lotus generates a countable amount of mana the set of war pride tokens generated will have a greater cardinality than the set of insect tokens, and thus the defending player can't block all attacking creatures.

Btw: The Oracle text for Mox Lotus just says "Add to your mana pool."
I wondered about the same thing a while ago, but what I came up with was that even though it would be fun to have an infinite number of Doubling Seasons, it would require a lot of rules reinterpretations.

My strategy to make a single Cloudpost generate infinite mana under the Comprehensive Rules was to start a game with an infinite number of teammates, and use Imperial Mask--Oh wait, even if the game got to the first upkeep, the game would immediately be over because nobody could escape the infinite priority-passing loop. Correct me if I'm wrong....

Even if an infinite number of permanents do come into play all at once, can you choose the order of their timestamps in a finite amount of game time, or does it cause an infinite loop?

Furthermore, I think that even if you had an infinite number of Doubling Seasons in play and you tried to create a token, the game would enter an infinite loop. You have a choice between an infinite number of identical replacement effects to apply, and you choose one. Now you have a choice between an infinite number of identical replacement effects to apply, and you choose one.... The fact that each choice is made individually means that now the game is waiting on your choice an infinite number of times. I think that alone is an infinite loop.

...And even if you were to somehow specify exactly how you would choose in each of those instances all at once, the fact remains that there's never a point at which a replacement effect does not apply, so there's never a well-defined final action you can actually take. Just because your intuition tells you that the final action is "put an uncountably infinite number of those tokens into play" doesn't mean that the rules have any clue.

Oh, and if you have an uncountably infinite number of permanents, and they each have a static ability that applies in the same layer, there's some point at which you can't determine what the "next" static ability to apply is, isn't there?

I'm not trying to criticize the effort or anything. I'm just trying to share what I think needs to be overcome in order to keep pursuing this in a serious way.
I'm just trying to share what I think needs to be overcome in order to keep pursuing this in a serious way.

I suggest you start with overcoming this rule:
104. Numbers and Symbols

104.1. The Magic game uses only integers.

"Infinity" is not an integer number, so that kind of stops you cold right there.
DCI Level 2 Judge Please use autocard when you ask a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel
Btw: The Oracle text for Mox Lotus just says "Add to your mana pool."

That's only because there is no infinite mana symbol anywhere other than Mox Lotus, so they just used the closest thing. In game, it's still infinite.
That is an infinite loop which is DEFINITELY covered by section 421 of the Comp Rules. billyh is trying to create infinity WITHOUT involving section 421.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Intruder Alarm. You don't actually make infinite tokens unless you want to.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Intruder Alarm. You don't actually make infinite tokens unless you want to.

How is that different from Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest? It also isn't infinite, unless you want it to be.
well the way i see it a single war pride creates the same number of tokens as she has, the actual amount she has doenst matter it makes the same number, whatever the number is, even infinity. So i am attacking with the same number of blockers she has plus the original war pride, so it gets through. This only works though because the number you have is a direct result of the number she has. That is they are by definition equal.
That's only because there is no infinite mana symbol anywhere other than Mox Lotus, so they just used the closest thing. In game, it's still infinite.

Can you provide a ruling that states this?
As for the original post:

421.3. If a loop contains optional actions controlled by two players and actions by both of those players
are required to continue the loop, the first player (or the first involved player after the active player
in turn order) chooses a number.

If the first player has infinity, and the second player has double infinity, then regardless of what the first player chooses, the second will receive double that.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the first player can't choose 'Infinity.'
Cyphern had it right at the beginning of the thread.
Using the Un-Rules and using infinity as a "tangible" number (like in higher levels of math). Here's what happens:

Your opponent gets infinity mana into her mana pool and sacs the Mox Lotus in order to take infinity loss of life from mana burn. Transcendence triggers and she gains 2(infinity) life back and sacs that to prevent the infinity loop between the Transcendence and the Platinum Angel. That life gain makes the Ageless Entity a 2(infinity)/2)infinity creature which she sacs to Carrion to produce 2(infinity) 0/1 creature tokens and ends her turn.

When you attack with the two Nacatl War-Pride, you get 2(X) Nacatl War-Pride tokens, where X = 2(infinity) because that's how many creatures your opponent has. Since you have 3 Doubling Seasons, that 2(X) becomes 16(X), so you end up with 32 times as many creatures as your opponent does.

So yes, something would get through for you to play Latulla's Orders on and destroy her Angel.

You can do my math replacing infinity with any real interger and come out with the same conclusion. For anyone who disagrees, prove me wrong and if you don't understand, go take a Calculus class.

EDIT: I thought about it and it would only be 16 times as many creatures. In the infinity model I worked out, you'd have 32(infinity) creatures in play, which is 16 times as much as 2(infinity).
Can you provide a ruling that states this?

Me? Well, no. But it seems a little obvious seeing as the symbol for infinite is a sideways 8.

Let's get a few judges in here and have them decide what it is.
That is an infinite loop which is DEFINITELY covered by section 421 of the Comp Rules. billyh is trying to create infinity WITHOUT involving section 421.

Taking a look at what billyh actually said:

I'm currently working on a situation that will generate an infinite number of creatures, with high probability, without using any un-cards, and without running afoul of the loop rules. It will, of course, require infinite time.

So, the two combos previously mentioned are certainly something he's looking for, unless he meant to say he wanted to avoid the rule completely. In which case, he was simply misunderstood.
Me? Well, no. But it seems a little obvious seeing as the symbol for infinite is a sideways 8.

Let's get a few judges in here and have them decide what it is.

So, wait, you made a claim, without any proof, and expect people to take your word as law?
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Intruder Alarm. You don't actually make infinite tokens unless you want to.

No, you don't make infinite tokens period.

How is that different from Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest? It also isn't infinite, unless you want it to be.

No, there is no 'unless you want it to be.' You can have an arbitrarily large number of them, but you cannot have infinite.

MTG Rules Advisor Mirrodin_Loyalty.png

...And even if you were to somehow specify exactly how you would choose in each of those instances all at once, the fact remains that there's never a point at which a replacement effect does not apply, so there's never a well-defined final action you can actually take. Just because your intuition tells you that the final action is "put an uncountably infinite number of those tokens into play" doesn't mean that the rules have any clue.

I want to move from Point A to Point B. In order to do that, I must first cover half of the distance. But then, I still have some distance left and must cover half of that distance. And so on. No matter how much distance you've covered, there is always some amount left, of which you must first cover half of that distance.

It's not until you are actually at Point B that you no longer run afoul of infinite sub-distances to travel. And yet, strangely, I am somehow able to move from Point A to Point B in a finite amount of time.

Apparently, I can move infinitely fast and it's just a matter of multiplying/dividing infinities to obtain a finite ratio that indicates how long it will take to traverse the infinite distance between point A and point B.

Surely something similar could be applied here? ;)

When you attack with the two Nacatl War-Pride, you get 2(X) Nacatl War-Pride tokens, where X = 2(infinity) because that's how many creatures your opponent has. Since you have 3 Doubling Seasons, that 2(X) becomes 16(X), so you end up with 32 times as many creatures as your opponent does.

So yes, something would get through for you to play Latulla's Orders on and destroy her Angel.

You can do my math replacing infinity with any real interger and come out with the same conclusion. For anyone who disagrees, prove me wrong and if you don't understand, go take a Calculus class.

Your math works fine for finite numbers. But it breaks down with infinity. Not because the math is necessarily wrong, but because your application of it to a game of Magic is flawed, imo.

When you go to declare blockers, Magic requires that you assign each creature individually as a blocker. As you are processing each attacker and assigning a blocker to each, you NEVER reach a point in which you have an attacking creature, but have run out of blockers to declare for it. No matter how many blockers you have already assigned, you still have an infinite number of potential blockers left.

The only way your argument works is if you are allowed to blanket assign blockers as a single entity rather than as individual blockers or via a single "command" that automatically assigns your infinite stream of blockers. While you can make an argument that you can indeed do that, I can just as easily make an argument that you cannot. And the fact of the matter is, the Comp Rules don't really support either position. They weren't written to handle a situation like this because a situation like this cannot occur in a normal game of Magic. It requires venturing into Un-land to achieve this situation.
I'm just a Pigment of your imagination.
I want to move from Point A to Point B. In order to do that, I must first cover half of the distance. But then, I still have some distance left and must cover half of that distance. And so on. No matter how much distance you've covered, there is always some amount left, of which you must first cover half of that distance.

It's not until you are actually at Point B that you no longer run afoul of infinite sub-distances to travel. And yet, strangely, I am somehow able to move from Point A to Point B in a finite amount of time.

Apparently, I can move infinitely fast and it's just a matter of multiplying/dividing infinities to obtain a finite ratio that indicates how long it will take to traverse the infinite distance between point A and point B.

Surely something similar could be applied here? ;)

In order to do something like that, we would probably have to define a notion of distance between game states. Then we could consider a sequence of game states to converge to a particular game state. But a problem still arises when the sequence doesn't actually have a limit. Here, I have an example.

Let's see... I play an Eager Cadet and enchant it with Pariah and Treacherous Link. There's no problem so far. If Pariah applies first, then nothing special happens because Treacherous Link cancels it out. If Treacherous Link applies first, then nothing special happens because Pariah cancels it out. In general, if there is a finite number of Treacherous Links and just as many Pariahs, they cancel each other out in a sort of zig-zag pattern. If they're in finite amounts but they aren't perfectly matched up, then the one there is more of wins out, and the whole contraption works as if it's just one copy of that enchantment.

Now, we can create an infinite number of each of these Auras without running into any problems (as far as I'm concerned). Play a Copy Enchantment, but don't have it copy anything. Make sure an Opalescence is in play. Then, do some infinity shenanigans with a Nacatl War-Pride, turning it into the Copy Enchantment along the way. Now, as the infinite Copy Enchantments come into play, make them all a copy of Pariah. (Technically this is also an infinite number of replacement effects, but I'm okay with this because the replacement effects don't depend on each other.) Do the same thing to make infinite Treacherous Links. (Alternately, you could just have an infinite portion of the first batch be Pariahs and another infinite portion be Treacherous Links.) Attach all of the enchantments to Eager Cadet as they come into play.

Now, as soon as you or Eager Cadet is going to be dealt damage, the infinite chain of enchantments starts... but where does it stop? We've only known three possible effects from the finite scenarios: it does nothing, it acts like a single Pariah, or it acts like a single Treacherous Link. But it can't do any of those things:

  • It can't do nothing. If it does, then if you ignore one of the Pariahs for a second and just look at what the other enchantments do, they do nothing... and then the Pariah takes effect and the whole thing acts as a single Pariah, which is not the same as doing nothing.
  • It can't act as a single Pariah. If it does, then if you ignore one of the Treacherous Links for a second and just look at what the other enchantments do, they act as a single Pariah... and then the Treacherous Link takes effect and the whole thing does nothing, which is not the same as acting as a single Pariah.
  • By a similar argument, it can't act as a single Treacherous Link.


How would you suggest resolving this situation?
So, wait, you made a claim, without any proof, and expect people to take your word as law?

No, I expect people to use their brains. I don't see how that is too much to ask.

If you're going to be adamant, though, then I vow that if I ever get to play a casual game against you, I'll be sure to play Gleemax for and and .
Cyphern had it right at the beginning of the thread.
Using the Un-Rules and using infinity as a "tangible" number (like in higher levels of math). Here's what happens:

Your opponent gets infinity mana into her mana pool and sacs the Mox Lotus in order to take infinity loss of life from mana burn. Transcendence triggers and she gains 2(infinity) life back and sacs that to prevent the infinity loop between the Transcendence and the Platinum Angel. That life gain makes the Ageless Entity a 2(infinity)/2)infinity creature which she sacs to Carrion to produce 2(infinity) 0/1 creature tokens and ends her turn.

When you attack with the two Nacatl War-Pride, you get 2(X) Nacatl War-Pride tokens, where X = 2(infinity) because that's how many creatures your opponent has. Since you have 3 Doubling Seasons, that 2(X) becomes 16(X), so you end up with 32 times as many creatures as your opponent does.

So yes, something would get through for you to play Latulla's Orders on and destroy her Angel.

You can do my math replacing infinity with any real interger and come out with the same conclusion. For anyone who disagrees, prove me wrong and if you don't understand, go take a Calculus class.

EDIT: I thought about it and it would only be 16 times as many creatures. In the infinity model I worked out, you'd have 32(infinity) creatures in play, which is 16 times as much as 2(infinity).

The above works fine if we start with the number X. X can be any real number you like (and if we were following the rules to the letter, it would have to be a non-negative integer -- Any number equal or greater than 0). You can do all the math and you'll have 32X attacking creatures while he has 2X creatures that can block. (This assumes the math above was right, and I'm too tired to check it.)

Infinity is NOT a number. Not in any sense of the common everyday usage. Its a concept, but not a number. I'll go through why.

2 - 2 = 0

2 - 1(2) = 0

Now 1(2) is equal to 1 + 1, so we substitute.
2 - (1+1) = 0

We can do the same thing with a larger number.

5 - 5 = 0

5 - 1(5) = 0

Now 1(5) is equal to 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, so we substitute.
5 - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) = 0

Basically, its 5 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 = 0
Lets keep going step by step for a second (its important).

5 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 = 0
4 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 = 0
3 - 1 - 1 - 1 = 0
2 - 1 - 1 = 0
1 - 1 = 0
0 = 0

Ok, now let's use infinity.

Infinity - Infinity = 0 ( X - X is always 0 )
Infinity - 1(Infinity) = 0 ( 1(X) is always X )
Infinity - 1 ( 1 + 1 + 1...) = 0
Infinity - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.... = 0

Ok like above we'll take this one step at a time.

Infinity - 1 is still infinity
and we subtract another 1 and its still infinity
in fact after subtracting 1 and infinite amount of times, we're left with... infinity.

Now this is a problem, I've shown using math that infinity is equal to 1+1+1+1... Yet, in the original problem we stated that infinity - infinity is equal to 0. However, when we break it down, it seems infinity - infinity is equal to infinity.

Now, one final rule in math, X - X is 0. So it seems that either infinity breaks this rule or it simply isn't a number (at least as far as we use them in a logical sense).


Because of all this we really can't use normal math for things like infinity * 2 or infinity - 1. The math breaks down.

Asking if 32(Infinity) is larger than 2(infinity) is rather pointless, since you simply can't multiply infinity like you would with a number.


In answer to the question, as best I can work out using the rules of math, you would both have an infinite number of creatures. He'd be able to block them all. Yes, common sense says otherwise, but that's how it would work. Infinity (and quantum mechanics for that matter) RARELY get along well with common sense.
This is not my sig.
When you attack with the two Nacatl War-Pride, you get 2(X) Nacatl War-Pride tokens, where X = 2(infinity) because that's how many creatures your opponent has. Since you have 3 Doubling Seasons, that 2(X) becomes 16(X), so you end up with 32 times as many creatures as your opponent does.

So yes, something would get through for you to play Latulla's Orders on and destroy her Angel.

You are missing the point. When the first war-pride trigger resolves you get a token that's a copy of the warpride for each creature the opponent has (the value is actually doubled 3 times due to the three doubling cubes). But the tokens become doubling seasons themselves since that's what the war-pride looks like when the trigger resolves. Then when the trigger of the second war-pride resolves you have an infinite number of doubling cubes in play. If the opponent created a countable amount of Pest tokens you will get an uncountable amount of tokens. And that's the entire point.

For anyone who disagrees, prove me wrong and if you don't understand, go take a Calculus class.

This has nothing to do with the concept of infinity from calculus; it has to do with "sizes" of infinite sets.



When you go to declare blockers, Magic requires that you assign each creature individually as a blocker. As you are processing each attacker and assigning a blocker to each, you NEVER reach a point in which you have an attacking creature, but have run out of blockers to declare for it. No matter how many blockers you have already assigned, you still have an infinite number of potential blockers left.

The rules don't say that you have to process your creatures one by one when you assign blockers. For each creature you choose to block with you just have to choose an attacking creature; nothing prevents you from making all those choices at once.

While you can make an argument that you can indeed do that, I can just as easily make an argument that you cannot.

How?
Your math works fine for finite numbers. But it breaks down with infinity. Not because the math is necessarily wrong, but because your application of it to a game of Magic is flawed, imo.

When you go to declare blockers, Magic requires that you assign each creature individually as a blocker. As you are processing each attacker and assigning a blocker to each, you NEVER reach a point in which you have an attacking creature, but have run out of blockers to declare for it. No matter how many blockers you have already assigned, you still have an infinite number of potential blockers left.

The only way your argument works is if you are allowed to blanket assign blockers as a single entity rather than as individual blockers or via a single "command" that automatically assigns your infinite stream of blockers. While you can make an argument that you can indeed do that, I can just as easily make an argument that you cannot. And the fact of the matter is, the Comp Rules don't really support either position. They weren't written to handle a situation like this because a situation like this cannot occur in a normal game of Magic. It requires venturing into Un-land to achieve this situation.

The OP is in an Un-land situation, so to give him an answer with any kind of real conclusion, you have to go into a way of thinking where infinity is a number able to be manipulated and bend the Comp rules a little (we do have an Un-card here after all), otherwise we're stuck in a elementary school playground saying "you're wrong times infinity!" "No, you're wrong infinity times 10!" and so on.

The other option to get a "real world" Magic solution is to assign a real number to the infinity produced by Mox Lotus, but that takes all the fun out of Un-Cards :D

You are missing the point. When the first war-pride trigger resolves you get a token that's a copy of the warpride for each creature the opponent has (the value is actually doubled 3 times due to the three doubling cubes). But the tokens become doubling seasons themselves since that's what the war-pride looks like when the trigger resolves. Then when the trigger of the second war-pride resolves you have an infinite number of doubling cubes in play. If the opponent created a countable amount of Pest tokens you will get an uncountable amount of tokens. And that's the entire point.

How are you getting that the War-Pride tokens are Doubling Seasons? He turned the Cytoshapes into Doubling Seasons because the Doubling Season was a creautre because of Opalescense. How then are the War-Pride tokens turning into Doubling Seasons?

This has nothing to do with the concept of infinity from calculus; it has to do with "sizes" of infinite sets.

Yes it does. The Mox Lotus "created" infinity in the game so to get a solution to the problem, you have to act like it's a real number and you can do so with those calculus concepts.

The deal is that if you want a real solution out of this problem, you have a go where I and some other people have gone to get it. If you want to keep arguing "but it's infinity" then you'll never get an answer.