Tatterkite (asking again)

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Tatterkite wrote:
Tatterkite can't have counters placed on it.

Shadowmoor FAQ wrote:
* If an ability refers to counters that are "placed" on a permanent, it's referring to both counters put on that permanent after it's in play and counters the permanent comes into play with.

Once again, does Tatterkite's ability apply to counters already in place on it?

It is obvious that it prevents the act of placing/putting a counter on it, but what about pre-existing counters?

say from a Vesuvan Shapeshifter with counters who copies a Tatterkite?

the counters in this case are put on that permanent after it's in play (although the ability isn't there yet) so the FAQ seems to indicate that it would apply to counters on the permanent once the ability is copied.

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Once again, does Tatterkite's ability apply to counters already in place on it?

No.

Tatterkite only forbids the act of placing a counter on it. It does not forbid having counters on it.
Does tatterkite get counters from Makeshift Manequin or Unstable Mutation?

figured I would throw this in a tatterkite thread since it already exists.
Does tatterkite get counters from Makeshift Manequin or Unstable Mutation?

figured I would throw this in a tatterkite thread since it already exists.

No.
Does tatterkite get counters from Makeshift Manequin or Unstable Mutation?

Nope. When those cards attempt to place a counter on tatterkite, they fail to do so.
Does tatterkite get counters from Makeshift Manequin or Unstable Mutation?

No. Placing counters on a Tatterkite is an impossible action.
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so the FAQ is a bit off then?

because as written
If an ability refers to counters that are "placed" on a permanent,

which definitely would include the ability on Tatterkite

it's referring to both counters put on that permanent after it's in play

a Vesuvan Shapeshifter that has a counter put on it (before it gains Tatterkite's ability) would have counters put on it after it's in play, and obviously Vesuvan Shapeshifter is a permanent.

and by this wording it then seems to indicate that Tatterkite's ability does affect those counters (ie they would be referenced)

The FAQ should be rewritten to clarify this.

something like the following perhaps?

If an ability refers to counters that are "placed" on a permanent, it's referring to both counters put on that permanent while the ability is in effect after the permanent is in play and counters the permanent comes into play with

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a Vesuvan Shapeshifter that has a counter put on it (before it gains Tatterkite's ability) would have counters put on it after it's in play, and obviously Vesuvan Shapeshifter is a permanent.

and by this wording it then seems to indicate that Tatterkite's ability does affect those counters (ie they would be referenced)

It would, if it had tatterkite's ability at the time they were placed. Tatterkite interferes with the act of placing a counter on something, and nothing else. Tatterkite doesn't look into the past and retroactively remove counters that were legally placed on the object.

The FAQ is showing that it includes both counters that would placed on an object due to a coming into play replacement effect and counters that would be placed on the tatterkite as the result of some effect.
Consider Flourishing Defenses. If having counters "placed on" something referred to the state (rather than the action), the Defenses would continually retrigger as long as there's a -1/-1 counter on any creatures.
I am still unsure why there is actually any confusion.

'Tatterkite cannot have counters placed on it' is significantly different enough to 'Tatterkite cannot have counters'. :/
I am still unsure why there is actually any confusion.

'Tatterkite cannot have counters placed on it' is significantly different enough to 'Tatterkite cannot have counters'. :/

the first ability is not explicit, does "placed" refer to the act of placing counters alone? or does it also include the state of having counters on it?

if I ask, "are there counters placed on the permanent?"
what am I asking?
am I asking about counters being placed on it?
or am I asking if there are counters in place on it?

placed is one of those verbs used to imply a state and also used as an action
whereas have is a verb that refers to a state

the second ability you cite is obviously referring to the state of the permanent, but it does nothing to clarify the confusion of the first ability.

the best explanation I've seen concerning the usage of "placed" is that it wouldn't make sense affecting state. Otherwise, it'd be part of Rule 420.

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Otherwise, it'd be part of Rule 420.

I don't see the relation to State-based effects...
the second ability you cite is obviously referring to the state of the permanent, but it does nothing to clarify the confusion of the first ability.

I agree that the wording on Tatterkite is a bit ambiguous in the english language, but the point of showing the other card is to illustrate what meaning the game of Magic uses "placed" (namely, that i means only the action, and not the state). Do you have a justification why the word should mean one thing for Flourishing Defenses and another for Tatterkite?
Rule 420 is the big cleanup rule.

2 legends with same name? poof

creature with lethal damage? poof

permanent with +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters? poof

player with 0 or less life? poof

if Tatterkite's ability somehow checked whether there were pre-existing counters on it and removed them then it would function similar to state based effects.

which is what I was getting at.

I agree that the wording on Tatterkite is a bit ambiguous in the english language, but the point of showing the other card is to illustrate what meaning the game of Magic uses "placed" (namely, that i means only the action, and not the state). Do you have a justification why the word should mean one thing for Flourishing Defenses and another for Tatterkite?

I agree with your rationale, it's just the ambiguity with the word placed that gets to me.
Everytime I read it, it seems to have a possible opening. I know it refers to the action of placing a counter, but the ability on Tatterkite as written and the particular passage cited earlier from the Shadowmoor FAQ just feel like they're not specific enough.

English seems to do this frequently.

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I didn't even think of using 'placed' as a state until I read this thread. It's simply not a used term in my region (Northeast US). I'd assume the same goes for Seattle (R&D). It probably never came up before the card was printed, with copy effects being a fairly small corner effect as well.
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Ironically, I'm only about 300 kilometres north of Seattle (aka WotC R&D), but I have found that there are linguistic differences between here and there.

Seattle pronounces "sorry", sow-ry rhyming with cow whereas in Vancouver we say "sorry" like soar-ry. We say Nir-van-a rhyming with can, they say Nir-von-a rhyming with gone...

and so it goes...

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