## Checking of SBE's

5 posts / 0 new
novalau
Joined Feb 2007
362 Posts
If I have a Kinsbaile Borderguard with 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and it received 3 -1/-1 counters (say from Incremental Blight), then would it die leaving 1 kithkin token (because it was a 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter) or would it leave 5 kithkin tokens (because it was a 1/1 with 2 +1/+1 counters and 3 -1/-1 counters)?

So in other words, the order of which SBE's are being checked matters in this case, so which SBE is checked first?
Joined Apr 2006
147 Posts
There is no order to resolving of state-based effects. They resolve simultaneously. The way I think about it to yield the proper answer is to think of an SBE check as one atomic operation that connects the pre-SBE state and the post-SBE state. Atomic in this sense means that it cannot be broken down into individual steps, it is only one gigantic change in the game state.

So pre-SBE you have your 0/0 Borderguard with the five counters. Post-SBE you have your Borderguard in the graveyard. There was no time in which SBEs were not applied that your Borderguard had the counters removed, so therefore it never existed that way while it was in play. LKI will look and see it as it last existed in play, before the SBE operation, at which time it had all the counters. You'll get 5 tokens.
zyrm
Joined Jul 2006
2300 Posts
If I have a Kinsbaile Borderguard with 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and it received 3 -1/-1 counters (say from Incremental Blight), then would it die leaving 1 kithkin token (because it was a 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter) or would it leave 5 kithkin tokens (because it was a 1/1 with 2 +1/+1 counters and 3 -1/-1 counters)?

So in other words, the order of which SBE's are being checked matters in this case, so which SBE is checked first?

the new shadowmoor rule states that for every +1/+1 counter you have, if there is a -1/-1 counter you remove them both, sorry if that was stated clumsily

so the borderguard will only have a -1/-1 counter on it, killint it as it would be a 0/0
it doesnt care if a counter gives - or + so since it still has 1 counter you put 1 token into play
Joined Apr 2006
147 Posts
the new shadowmoor rule states that for every +1/+1 counter you have, if there is a -1/-1 counter you remove them both, sorry if that was stated clumsily

so the borderguard will only have a -1/-1 counter on it, killint it as it would be a 0/0
it doesnt care if a counter gives - or + so since it still has 1 counter you put 1 token into play

This is incorrect. While the rules do state that, the actual effect is a state-based effect which resolves simultaneously with other SBEs. This quote from the FAQ hopefully will clarify this.

* Some abilities, such as persist, care whether a creature had -1/-1 counters on it as it left play. If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, the game will check its existence just before it leaves play. It still had all those counters on it at that time.

novalau
Joined Feb 2007
362 Posts
Thank you .