Shadowmoor Questions

21 posts / 0 new
Last post
Grim Poppet is in play with no -1/-1 counters on it under my opponents control. I have a Witherscale Wurm in play with eight -1/-1 counters on it.
I then play Fate Transfer, choosing to move the eight counters off of Witherscale Wurm and onto Grim Poppet.
My opponent then tried to move the counters off of the Grim Poppet, but I argued, since my opponent let Fate Transfer resolve, the counters were placed onto Grim Poppet, and Grim Poppet will be sent to the graveyard after state based effects are checked from the spell resolving, before either player received priority again. He gave me a blank look and called judge (at prerelease.)
After explaining, the judge ruled I was right, but every single person I've talked to since said I wasn't. Help?


Also, when playing Demigod of Revenge, any copies in the graveyard are placed into play after playing the spell? That ability doesn't require it to come into play first, just for it to be successfully played right (say if it were countered)?
1) The judge is right. Your opponent can't take any counters off of the Poppet before Transfer resolves, because there aren't any on it at the time. After the Transfer resolves, state-based effects move the Poppet to his graveyard before he gets the chance to take any counters off.

2) The ability triggers when the spell is played, and it is independent from whether the spell gets countered or not.
DCI Level 2 Judge Please use autocard when you ask a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel
Grim Poppet is in play with no -1/-1 counters on it under my opponents control. I have a Witherscale Wurm in play with eight -1/-1 counters on it.
I then play Fate Transfer, choosing to move the eight counters off of Witherscale Wurm and onto Grim Poppet.
My opponent then tried to move the counters off of the Grim Poppet, but I argued, since my opponent let Fate Transfer resolve, the counters were placed onto Grim Poppet, and Grim Poppet will be sent to the graveyard after state based effects are checked from the spell resolving, before either player received priority again. He gave me a blank look and called judge (at prerelease.)
After explaining, the judge ruled I was right, but every single person I've talked to since said I wasn't. Help?

You were correct. State-based effects are checked just before a player would gain priority, and will see a creature with a toughness of 0 or less that needs to go to the graveyard and put it there. By the time your opponent (or you for that matter) can get priority to play anything, the Poppet is gone. There is never a time when the Poppet has the counters, and is in play, while any player has priority.

Also, when playing Demigod of Revenge, any copies in the graveyard are placed into play after playing the spell? That ability doesn't require it to come into play first, just for it to be successfully played right (say if it were countered)?

Yes, which is very unusual; "comes into play" triggers are far more common.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
ah, good to know, thanks.

Yeah, that is strange... looks like I'll be getting a play set of extirpate next pay check
From shadowmoor faqs
Demigod of Revenge
{B/R}{B/R}{B/R}{B/R}{B/R}
Creature -- Spirit Avatar
5/4
Flying, haste
When you play Demigod of Revenge, return all cards named Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to play.

* This ability triggers when you play Demigod of Revenge as a spell. It won't trigger if Demigod of Revenge is put directly into play.

* The triggered ability goes on the stack on top of the Demigod of Revenge spell. By the time the Demigod of Revenge spell resolves, all the Demigods that were in your graveyard will be in play already.

* If Demigod of Revenge is countered *before* its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. In fact, it will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to play, as well as any others.
-----
woah...

that third one has me confused...

* If Demigod of Revenge is countered *before* its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. In fact, it will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to play, as well as any others.

so... its ability goes on the stack after playing they spell. So if your opponent is running a counter spell control deck, they would have to say that they let its triggered ability resolve before countering demigod? correct? otherwise it would just return itself to play?
They can't let its triggered ability resolve. As soon as all the steps of playing the spell are complete, it goes on the stack and its ability triggers. However, you're in the middle of playing a spell (the Demigod itself) and so the ability can't resolve until the Demigod spell does, so if they wait for that to happen, it's too late to counter it!
They can't let its triggered ability resolve. As soon as all the steps of playing the spell are complete, it goes on the stack and its ability triggers. However, you're in the middle of playing a spell (the Demigod itself) and so the ability can't resolve until the Demigod spell does, so if they wait for that to happen, it's too late to counter it!

Not true. The ability triggers after the Demigod has been played, so the trigger will go on the stack last and resolves before the Demigod itself resolves. They can let the Demigod's triggered ability resolve. It's a triggered ability and uses the stack like other spells and (non-mana) abilities. And each player gets priority after each spell or ability on the stack resolves. So their opponent can simply let the Demigod's triggered ability resolve, and then counter it.

Wizards.Com Boards Net Rep

DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

well thats absolutely amazing. So many people are going to misplay that though, I won't be suprised to see more threads asking about that trigger in particular


last question for now,

Fendeep Summoner is in play under an opponents control. the opponent uses its tap ability, makes two swamps 3/5 treefolk, then declares attacks with them. In response, before blocks are declared, I play Pollen Lullaby and win the clash. so do the lands untap next turn, or do they stay tapped?
well thats absolutely amazing. So many people are going to misplay that though, I won't be suprised to see more threads asking about that trigger in particular

It's worse than that. For the most part it won't even occur to people to ask about it.


Fendeep Summoner is in play under an opponents control. the opponent uses its tap ability, makes two swamps 3/5 treefolk, then declares attacks with them. In response, before blocks are declared, I play Pollen Lullaby and win the clash. so do the lands untap next turn, or do they stay tapped?

They stay tapped. They only need to meet the description "attacking creatures" when the effect is first applied to them, not at any later point. They don't have to still be creatures at the time they would untap, any more than they have to still be attacking (which is, of course, impossible).
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
eh, then they're in for a learning curve if they play me haha :P :P


thanks tons everyone, I think I'm starting to get the hang of everything
They stay tapped. They only need to meet the description "attacking creatures" when the effect is first applied to them, not at any later point. They don't have to still be creatures at the time they would untap, any more than they have to still be attacking (which is, of course, impossible).

I believe that is incorrect. Pollen Lullaby doesn't modifies the characteristics of the creatures, it modifies the game rules. As such, all creatures that player controls do not untap next untap but all non-creatures, even those which were creatures, do untap.
They only need to meet the description "attacking creatures" when the effect is first applied to them, not at any later point.

What the heck are you talking about?
[indent]Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. Clash with an opponent. If you win, creatures that player controls don't untap during the player's next untap step.[/indent]
Lullaby does NOT care whether or not a Creature was attacking. Nor, does its effect tied to ANY specific Creatures involved in Combat.

In that Players next Untap step, the Lands are no longer Creatures. We do NOT see why they would not untap.
However, the Summoner will not Untap, regardless of the fact that it was NOT involved in Combat.
What the heck are you talking about?
[indent]Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. Clash with an opponent. If you win, creatures that player controls don't untap during the player's next untap step.[/indent]
Lullaby does NOT care whether or not a Creature was attacking. Nor, does its effect tied to ANY specific Creatures involved in Combat.

In that Players next Untap step, the Lands are no longer Creatures. We do NOT see why they would not untap.
However, the Summoner will not Untap, regardless of the fact that it was NOT involved in Combat.

Cripes. That's right. I somehow read an extra word in there and it changed the whole inner workings of the ability. (If it said "attacking" I believe my answer would have been correct, but as it is, it does indeed deserve the abuse being heaped upon it here.)
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
(If it said "attacking" I believe my answer would have been correct,

IF it were to have worked as you thought it did, it would have been worded as; [indent]Each attacking creature doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.[/indent] See Tangle.
but as it is, it does indeed deserve the abuse being heaped upon it here.)

What abuse?
So if I play a body double naming demigod of revenge, will it still bring the demigods from my graveyard into play?
No.

The Double does not become a Copy until it Comes-Into-Play.

Thus, if the Creature Card it was Copying had a Comes-into-Play ability, it would be applicable.
However, the DemiGod has a "When ~ was played", and will NOT trigger; Because the Double was a Double, and not the DemiGod when it was Played.
OK, Rules question: Say I have a Saffi Eriksdotter on the field and a Kitchen Finks(or any card with Persist) the Finks die and I respond by sacing Saffi. does the Finks come back into play with the -1/-1 counter on it due to Persist or does Saffi's ability replace the persist?
Grrr. This thread is cursed for me, it seems.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
You choose. Both of the abilities trigger based on the same condition, so you select the order they trigger in. If Saffi's ability resolves first, then the Persist ability has no creature to return and does nothing.

Though why you'd sacrifice Saffi for Kitchen Finks, I have no clue. Much better to off her in exchange for Twilight Shepherd. *evil grin*
ah, don't stay tapped, ok. well, at least that guy won with a suprise burn spell, so it didn't matter, but that would have been a game changing error if he hadn't

thanks for the correction