body double

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OKay question if i have a creature in my graveyard and i have a carrion feeder in play. if i play body double, and he resolves, before he becomes a creature my opponent plays a spell to deal 1 dmg to carrion feeder...if i sac the body double to carrion feeder does the body double die as "body double" with no creature abilities or does he die as the creature i chose him to become?


I know thats kinda hard to understand ill try to play it out

carrion feeder in play
akroma angel of wrath in the graveyard
play body double
body double resolves targeting akroma
opponent plays dark blast targeting carrion feeder
if i sac body double to give carrion feeder +1/+1 does body double die as akroma or does he die as body double?
First of all, Body Double's Copy effect does not Target.

Second, the Double will leave play as an Akroma, but will revert back to just being a Double in the Graveyard.
[indent]Thus, if the Double was a copy of a Kokusho, the Evening Star, then the Life Loss/Gain ability will trigger.

However, if the Double was a copy of Vigor, then Shuffle ability will not trigger.[/indent]
Hum.

Is there any point in time while Body Double is in play he is /not/ a copy of a creature? I don't think Body double's copy ability can actually be responded to, as it chooses a creature in the graveyard it comes into play as. So once it resolves, it immediately becomes an Akroma or whatnot before anyone has a chance to respond to it.
Hum.

Is there any point in time while Body Double is in play he is /not/ a copy of a creature?

No.
I don't think Body double's copy ability can actually be responded to, as it chooses a creature in the graveyard it comes into play as. So once it resolves, it immediately becomes an Akroma or whatnot before anyone has a chance to respond to it.

That's correct. It's a replacement effect that modifies how it comes into play. There's no trigger to respond to.
so he would have to respond while body double is on the stack because the moment the spell resolves he is already copied as a creature?
so he would have to respond while body double is on the stack because the moment the spell resolves he is already copied as a creature?

Correct.
.. Well, if you mean in order for him to avoid your carrion feeder being pumped, then yes, because if Body-double hasn't resolved yet then you obviously can't sacrifice it.


can I know the relevance of why it matters what kind of creature Body Double was for it going into the graveyard? If it had some kind of leave play effect, then yeah, but Akroma doesn't seem to be one.

If you are asking 'What is Body Double in the Graveyard', then Feigal has already answered the question. Its just body double.
I am running a portal deck useing sneak attack as a way to bring my creatures into play. akroma was a bad example but i couldnt think of anything else to name off the top of my head. Kokusho is a better example.

I had carrion feeder in play
i activated sneak attack for R
brought body double into play coping kokusho, the evening star
my opponent darkblasted carrion feeder in response to body double's ability going on the stack
i said i sac kokusho(body doubled) in response but was told that he would be sacced as body double not kokusho.

But your saying that body doubles ability resolves while on the stack? so he comes into play directly as a copy of the creature in the graveyard? but your saying its not targeted? So he couldnt extirpate the kokusho once ive activated sneak attacks ability to bring body double into play?
my opponent darkblasted carrion feeder in response to body double's ability going on the stack

What ability? Body double does not have a triggered ability, and neither does kokusho. Body double has a replacement effect that alters the way it comes into play. No one can intervene in the process of the creature coming into play, and no one can respond to the choice that is made for what to copy.
So he couldnt extirpate the kokusho once ive activated sneak attacks ability to bring body double into play?

He can respond to you activating Sneak attack, but at that time he doesnt yet know what creature you are putting into play. Once the ability starts to resolve, it resolves completely without anyone getting a chance to respond.
First of all, Body Double's Copy effect does not Target.

Second, the Double will leave play as an Akroma, but will revert back to just being a Double in the Graveyard.
[indent]Thus, if the Double was a copy of a Kokusho, the Evening Star, then the Life Loss/Gain ability will trigger.

However, if the Double was a copy of Vigor, then Shuffle ability will not trigger.[/indent]

Wait, wouldn't it trigger, but the ability wouldn't resolve or finish or whatever? It would trigger as Vigor got put into a graveyard from play, but when the trigger resolves, it can't put IT into play since it's a body double.

Otherwise, why wouldn't it trigger, but Kokusho wouldn't?
thank you thats what i was trying to figure out.
Wait, wouldn't it trigger, but the ability wouldn't resolve or finish or whatever? It would trigger as Vigor got put into a graveyard from play, but when the trigger resolves, it can't put IT into play since it's a body double.

Otherwise, why wouldn't it trigger, but Kokusho wouldn't?

The difference between a Kokusho and a Vigor dying is that their triggered abilities are checked at slightly different times due to their exact wordings. Kokusho has an ability that triggers specifically when it leaves play. Thus, the existance of the triggered ability is checked immediately before the zone change. Vigor, on the other hand, has a general ability which does not specifically check for leaving play. Thus, it's existance is checked immediately after the zone change. This unusual distinction is explained in the following rule:
410.10d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be in play, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Abilities that trigger specifically when an object leaves play, when an object is put into a hand or library, or when a player loses control of an object will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
Example: Two creatures are in play along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures.

  • When body-double-kokusho dies, the game looks at the last moment it was in play and sees a kokusho leaving play, thus the ability triggers.
  • When body-double-vigor dies, the game looks at the first moment it is in the graveyard and sees a body double with no relevant abilities has just left play, thus the ability does not trigger.
Wait, wouldn't it trigger, but the ability wouldn't resolve or finish or whatever? It would trigger as Vigor got put into a graveyard from play, but when the trigger resolves, it can't put IT into play since it's a body double.

Otherwise, why wouldn't it trigger, but Kokusho wouldn't?

The difference is that Vigor's ability triggers when it is put into a graveyard from anywhere, while Kokusho, the Evening Star's ability triggers when it is put into a graveyard from play.

Abilities which trigger when an object specifically leaves play trigger if they existed just before the object left play (ie, while it was in play). This is why a Body Double copying a Kokusho will trigger.

Abilities which trigger when an object moves to a graveyard from anywhere other than specifically from play only trigger if they exist just after the object is put into the graveyard (ie, while it is in the graveyard). This is why a Body Double copying Vigor won't trigger.[indent]410.10d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be in play, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger. Abilities that trigger specifically when an object leaves play, when an object is put into a hand or library, or when a player loses control of an object will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.[/indent]
Otherwise, why wouldn't [Vigor] trigger, but Kokusho wouldn't?

You got it backwards. Vigor-Double won't trigger, since due to its wording, it triggers in the graveyard. Whereas Koko-doublewill trigger since it triggers upon it going from play to the graveyard, not when it is in the graveyard.
I guess it's true. You do learn something every day.

/me Note to self, need to take time out to read the actual rules, line for line.



Oh and thanx once again for the Gods of the forums to coming in and helping out a Nuisance engine
okay with that wording in the rules would a kokusho trigger go on the stack if my oponent has leyline of the void in play? the creature is dieing, going to the graveyard, but getting removed from the game instead...so would his ability still go off?
okay with that wording in the rules would a kokusho trigger go on the stack if my oponent has leyline of the void in play? the creature is dieing, going to the graveyard, but getting removed from the game instead...so would his ability still go off?

No. The ability only triggers if the creature is actually put into a graveyard from play, and Leyline of the Void replaces being put into the graveyard with being removed from the game. Since the card never goes to a graveyard, the ability never has a chance to trigger.
No, it wouldn't. Your Kokusho may be trying to go to the graveyard, but it never actually gets there. It gets removed from the game instead.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Kokusho's ability will not trigger. With the Leyline in play, it never goes to the graveyard, it goes from the in play zone to the removed from game zone, so it does not get a chance to trigger.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

Thank you everyone for the help!