Master Warcraft

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Multiplayer free for all, 5 players for giggles.

I cast Master Warcraft before an opponent's attack.

I declare attackers, but do I choose who they attack?
The attacking Player still chooses who is attacked.
The controller of the Warcraft merely chooses what attacks.
Just like good old Norritt.

Thanks.
In a MP game, if you chose for some non-fliers to attack and you control Form of the Dragon will the Active Player have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player? What about if you control Propaganda and they don't have 2 mana available, what if they do have 2 mana available?

Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group

In a MP game, if you chose for some non-fliers to attack and you control Form of the Dragon will the Active Player have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player? What about if you control Propaganda and they don't have 2 mana available, what if they do have 2 mana available?


Feel free to start a new thread rather than revisit a two-year-old thread.

From the autocard of Master Warcraft.
10/1/2005 You choose attackers and make blocking assignments regardless of whether it's your turn and regardless of whether the creatures are attacking you. Your choices must be legal within the normal rules for attacking and blocking.

Master Warcraft allows you to chose which creatures attack.  It does not allow you to decide which players or which planeswalkers get attacked.  The active player still govern these decisions.

508. Declare Attackers Step

508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 715, "Handling Illegal Actions").
...
508.1g If any of the chosen creatures require paying costs to attack, the active player determines the total cost to attack. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, ignore this change.

508.1h If any of the costs require mana, the active player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities").

508.1i Once the player has enough mana in his or her mana pool, he or she pays all costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.


In a MP game, if you chose for some non-fliers to attack and you control Form of the Dragon will the Active Player have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player? What about if you control Propaganda and they don't have 2 mana available, what if they do have 2 mana available?


Feel free to start a new thread rather than revisit a two-year-old thread.

From the autocard of Master Warcraft.
10/1/2005 You choose attackers and make blocking assignments regardless of whether it's your turn and regardless of whether the creatures are attacking you. Your choices must be legal within the normal rules for attacking and blocking.

Master Warcraft allows you to chose which creatures attack.  It does not allow you to decide which players or which planeswalkers get attacked.  The active player still govern these decisions.



In a multiplayer game, it isn't known which creatures are legal blockers until the active player declares which player he is attacking.  Can you clarify how Master Warcraft works in this case, since it must be cast before attackers are declared?
 
(Assuming that player 3 cannot block if player 2 is attacked)
 
In a MP game, if you chose for some non-fliers to attack and you control Form of the Dragon will the Active Player have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player? What about if you control Propaganda and they don't have 2 mana available, what if they do have 2 mana available?


Feel free to start a new thread rather than revisit a two-year-old thread.

From the autocard of Master Warcraft.
10/1/2005 You choose attackers and make blocking assignments regardless of whether it's your turn and regardless of whether the creatures are attacking you. Your choices must be legal within the normal rules for attacking and blocking.

Master Warcraft allows you to chose which creatures attack.  It does not allow you to decide which players or which planeswalkers get attacked.  The active player still govern these decisions.



In a multiplayer game, it isn't known which creatures are legal blockers until the active player declares which player he is attacking.  Can you clarify how Master Warcraft works in this case, since it must be cast before attackers are declared?
 
(Assuming that player 3 cannot block if player 2 is attacked)
 


I don't understand the objection.  Won't the game rewind if an illegal state is achieved?

509. Declare Blockers Step


509.1. First, the defending player declares blockers. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. To declare blockers, the defending player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of blockers, the defending player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 715, "Handling Illegal Actions").



I misread master warcraft.  I thought you picked which creatures would block when it resolved.

RTFC strikes again.

 

In a MP game, if you chose for some non-fliers to attack and you control Form of the Dragon will the Active Player have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player? What about if you control Propaganda and they don't have 2 mana available, what if they do have 2 mana available?

From the autocard of Master Warcraft.
10/1/2005 You choose attackers and make blocking assignments regardless of whether it's your turn and regardless of whether the creatures are attacking you. Your choices must be legal within the normal rules for attacking and blocking.

Master Warcraft allows you to chose which creatures attack.  It does not allow you to decide which players or which planeswalkers get attacked (I know).  The active player still govern these decisions. (Hence why I asked, "Will the Active Player (not you)have to declare a player that isn't you the defending player for non-flying creatures when you control Form of the Dragon)

In a FFA game where all opponents are defending players. Since Master Warcraft must be cast before the Declare Attackers step, does it modify the rules for 508.1, but not any other rules. Therefore, the caster of MW can choose a non-flyer to attack and if the caster of MW controls FotD, is the Active Player forced to use that creature to attack someone else? Can the Active Player choose not to pay Propaganda/Ghostly Prision mana to attack you the caster of MW?

Since, if any attack declaration that is illegal results in returning the game state to just before that declaration. Can the Active Player choose not to pay the 2 mana (you control Propaganda) to declare you the defending player (since the Active Player determines which player each creature attacks) of a creature that you chose as an attacking creature (because of Master Warcraft allows you to decide which creatures attack). This would make the declaration illegal (since the costs aren't paid to attack) and the game would back up to the declare attacking creatures step 508.1a. As the caster of MW, can you make the same decisions, and require that the Active Player make different choices that don't result in an illegal action?


What if you are the only player left in the game, and you cast Master Warcraft, and you control Propaganda? Can you chose 2 creatures to attack. Then the Active Player (not you) decides who they attack (this decision must be you). Then the Active Player chooses to pay any costs associated with declaring those creatures attackers (they must play 4 total mana), since Master Warcraft doesn't modify this part of the rules. Can they choose not to pay 4 mana if they have it available, resulting in an illegal action, returning the game to the choose attacking creatures declaration (controlled by the caster of Master Warcraft). What happens if they have only 2 mana available (who chose the illegal action, the caster of MW who chose 2 creatures or the Active Player who chose you as the defender), what happens if they have no mana available?


Do you see my confusion? In certain situations, it seems that the caster of Master Warcraft is choosing illegal actions, in others the Active Player is making illegal actions. How do you determine who is making an illegal action, and what happens in each of these situations. (all I really wanted to know is if Master Warcraft is actually a good card in Multiplayer, but the more I think about the card the less I understand how it interacts with cards that make you pay costs or prevent attacking.


508.1a The active player chooses which creatures that he or she controls, if any, will attack. The chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled by the active player continuously since the turn began.
508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.
506.2a During the combat phase of a multiplayer game, there may be one or more defending players, depending on the variant being played and the options chosen for it. Unless all the attacking player’s opponents automatically become defending players during the combat phase, the attacking player chooses one of his or her opponents as a turn-based action during the beginning of combat step. (Note that the choice may be dictated by the variant being played or the options chosen for it.) That player becomes the defending player. See rule 802, “Attack Multiple Players Option,” rule 803, “Attack Left and Attack Right Options,” and rule 807, “Emperor Variant.”



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In a FFA game where all opponents are defending players.  Since Master Warcraft must be cast before the Declare Attackers step, does it modify the rules for 508.1, but not any other rules.  Therefore, the caster of MW can choose a non-flyer to attack and if the caster of MW controls FotD, is the Active Player forced to use that creature to attack someone else?


Yes.  Yes.

508. Declare Attackers Step

508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 715, "Handling Illegal Actions").

The caster of Master Warcraft chooses.
508.1a The active player chooses which creatures that he or she controls, if any, will attack. The chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled by the active player continuously since the turn began.

The active player chooses which player or plansewalker the non-flying creature is attacking.  Since one defending player controls Form of the Dragon the other defending player must be attacked by the non-flying creature.
508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.

508.1c The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it's affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can't attack, or that it can't attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.


Can the Active Player choose not to pay Propaganda/Ghostly Prision mana to attack you the caster of MW?


Yes.


Can the Active Player choose not to pay Propaganda/Ghostly Prision mana to attack you the caster of MW?
Since, if any attack declaration that is illegal results in returning the game state to just before that declaration. Can the Active Player choose not to pay the 2 mana (you control Propaganda) to declare you the defending player (since the Active Player determines which player each creature attacks) of a creature that you chose as an attacking creature (because of Master Warcraft allows you to decide which creatures attack). This would make the declaration illegal (since the costs aren't paid to attack) and the game would back up to the declare attacking creatures step 508.1a. As the caster of MW, can you make the same decisions, and require that the Active Player make different choices that don't result in an illegal action?


No.  The caster of Master Warcraft chooses only creatures.  He or she can't insist that the active player make any actions.


What if you are the only player left in the game, and you cast Master Warcraft, and you control Propaganda? Can you chose 2 creatures to attack.


Yes.


Then the Active Player (not you) decides who they attack (this decision must be you). Then the Active Player chooses to pay any costs associated with declaring those creatures attackers (they must play 4 total mana), since Master Warcraft doesn't modify this part of the rules. Can they choose not to pay 4 mana if they have it available, resulting in an illegal action, returning the game to the choose attacking creatures declaration (controlled by the caster of Master Warcraft).


Yes.


What happens if they have only 2 mana available (who chose the illegal action, the caster of MW who chose 2 creatures or the Active Player who chose you as the defender), what happens if they have no mana available?


If the active player has only two mana, the active player is the one in charge of the costs, so the active player is the one in charge of the illegal action.


Do you see my confusion? In certain situations, it seems that the caster of Master Warcraft is choosing illegal actions, in others the Active Player is making illegal actions. How do you determine who is making an illegal action, and what happens in each of these situations. (all I really wanted to know is if Master Warcraft is actually a good card in Multiplayer, but the more I think about the card the less I understand how it interacts with cards that make you pay costs or prevent attacking.


An example of an illegal action by the caster of Master Warcraft would be chosing a creature with defender.  An example of an illegal action by the active player would be non-payment of a cost.


Do you see my confusion? In certain situations, it seems that the caster of Master Warcraft is choosing illegal actions, in others the Active Player is making illegal actions. How do you determine who is making an illegal action, and what happens in each of these situations. (all I really wanted to know is if Master Warcraft is actually a good card in Multiplayer, but the more I think about the card the less I understand how it interacts with cards that make you pay costs or prevent attacking.

An example of an illegal action by the caster of Master Warcraft would be chosing a creature with defender.  An example of an illegal action by the active player would be non-payment of a cost.

Ok, I think you see my confusion now. Lets say in a 2 player game, the Active Player has 2 creatures, and 2 mana open. The other player controls Propaganda, and casts Master Warcraft. When it resolves, he chooses to have both creatures attack, neither creature has defender so for all intents and purposes the caster of MW hasn't done an illegal action. Then the Active Player enters his declare attackers step at attempts to follow all the steps listed there. The Active Player will fail when they attempt to pay 4 mana for attacking with the two creatures. Since the Active Player didn't pay the required costs, you have to handle that illegal action and return to the beginning of the declare attackers step. What prevents the caster of MW from selecting both creatures as attacking creatures again, since that isn't an illegal action? Does the game just get stuck in and endless loop? Are there any rules to handle this?

Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group

Ok, I think you see my confusion now. Lets say in a 2 player game, the Active Player has 2 creatures, and 2 mana open. The other player controls Propaganda, and casts Master Warcraft. When it resolves, he chooses to have both creatures attack, neither creature has defender so for all intents and purposes the caster of MW hasn't done an illegal action. Then the Active Player enters his declare attackers step at attempts to follow all the steps listed there. The Active Player will fail when they attempt to pay 4 mana for attacking with the two creatures. Since the Active Player didn't pay the required costs, you have to handle that illegal action and return to the beginning of the declare attackers step. What prevents the caster of MW from selecting both creatures as attacking creatures again, since that isn't an illegal action? Does the game just get stuck in and endless loop? Are there any rules to handle this?



Nothing.

No, the game terminates if an unbounded loop occurs when only mandatory actions are required.
104.4b If the game somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw.
714.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a draw. (See rule 104.4b.)

The "Taking Shortcuts" portion of the Comprehensive Rules covers loops that require a choice to be made.

This remindes me of Taking this up a notch - New Loop Problem discussing Illicit Auction targeting a Platinum Angel.

As the Dread Pirate Roberts said: "Well if there can be no arrangement, then we are at an impasse."


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