New Prismatic B&R Ideas

Figured it'd be good to start a thread talking about the state of Prismatic B&R and some ideas to improve it.

Will post more later but this is my first take on a list:


Banned - 12
Battle of Wits
Bribery
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Demonic Consultation
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Insidious Dreams
Mystical Tutor
Sundering Titan
Upheaval
Vampiric Tutor
Wild Research

Resritcted - 35
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening
Skullclamp
Tooth and Nail
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Quiet Speculation
Sterling Grove
Supply/Demand
Worldly Tutor
Tolaria West
Idyllic Tutor
Liliana Vess
Doomsday
Planar Portal
Mirari's Wake
Protean Hulk
Grindstone (preemptive restriction)

Cards that are banned (or should be) that I don't have on my lists:
Brainspoil
Clutch of the Undercity
Dimir House Guard
Dimir Machinations
Dizzy Spell
Drift of Phantasms
Ethereal Usher
Grozoth
Netherborn Phalanx
Perplex
Summoner's Pact
Beseech the Queen
Primal Command



What do other people think?
Figured it'd be good to start a thread talking about the state of Prismatic B&R and some ideas to improve it.

Will post more later but this is my first take on a list:


Banned - 12
Battle of Wits
Bribery
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Demonic Consultation
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Insidious Dreams
Mystical Tutor
Sundering Titan
Upheaval
Vampiric Tutor
Wild Research

Resritcted - 35
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening
Skullclamp
Tooth and Nail
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Quiet Speculation
Sterling Grove
Supply/Demand
Worldly Tutor
Tolaria West
Idyllic Tutor
Liliana Vess
Doomsday
Planar Portal
Mirari's Wake
Protean Hulk
Grindstone (preemptive restriction)

Cards that are banned (or should be) that I don't have on my lists:
Brainspoil
Clutch of the Undercity
Dimir House Guard
Dimir Machinations
Dizzy Spell
Drift of Phantasms
Ethereal Usher
Grozoth
Netherborn Phalanx
Perplex
Summoner's Pact
Beseech the Queen
Primal Command



What do other people think?

I think we should only have a restricted list for Pris, with the lone exception being Battle of Wits. I mean play Prismatic singleton and see how efficient having only one card in a deck is. I would like to see ALL tutor effects be restricted to one of.

The idea of a banned list in a Classic format baffles me since its the format were Wizos says that every card has a chance of seeing play.
Tooth and Nail is stronger than Bribery, yet you have Bribery in banned list while Tooth is in restricted. Bringer of the Black Dawn isn't much stronger than Liliana, so I'd throw Bringer to restricted list.

Don't see why you want Wake to be restricted. Aggro doesn't even use it, and many combo decks doesn't need it either. Sure it's nice in control, but far from overpowering. I think Detrivore could be 4 of perhaps. None of the transmute cards should be banned.

However, I think only restricted list (sans Battle of Wits, which should propably stay banned) like tripster proposed could work somehow.
Restricted list only seems bad to me. Games become tutor for Sundering Titan->play Sundering Titan. (Or just cast Aquire.)

Oh and Gifts Ungiven in the format with tons of ways to tutor for it? Seems really unhealthy.

Also with no restricted tutors combo becomes much bigger issue I think that you'd have to restrict Flash, Protean Hulk, Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and World Gouger Dragon.

Could be wrong on Tooth v Bribery but Bribery does cost about half as much, probably fine restricting it.

Wake can probably come off the restricted list. My issue with it is that in casual control mirrors if one person has it and other does not they win 9/10 times. Mana Reflection has given a second option however so probably leave Wake alone.
I am definitely for a restricted list, but I'd drop Tooth and Nail and other cards that put things directly into play from the library into the banned list. Otherwise games just hinge around drawing and resolving a single spell. If you're for banning Battle of Wits, why not any other 1 card "combo?"

Demonic Collusion, too, with Life from the Loam seems crazy for casual play (tutor for the Loam first, then tutor for whatever every turn after that), but I guess it's slow so it's not so bad.
I am definitely for a restricted list, but I'd drop Tooth and Nail and other cards that put things directly into play from the library into the banned list. Otherwise games just hinge around drawing and resolving a single spell. If you're for banning Battle of Wits, why not any other 1 card "combo?"

Demonic Collusion, too, with Life from the Loam seems crazy for casual play (tutor for the Loam first, then tutor for whatever every turn after that), but I guess it's slow so it's not so bad.

I can see banning T&N it is stupidly back breaking. Yeah DC&LftL was basically how I won Prismatic games when Collusion was legal. Now it is how I win EDH with my most broken deck.

On other thing I think should be brought up is the sideboard. I'm in favor of making it ether 25 or 0 cards. Personally I think 0 is better, don't think the format needs SBs. With it at 15 its a joke. You can basically sideboard vs one deck which I think is a bit silly.
I think you ought to go for a straight banned list and not a mix 'n' match of banned and restricted.
Either it's too powerful or it's not.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

(Yeah, I'm cross posting this message, but I think it's relevant to both threads I'm posting it into, but I'll more to this post).

Something of interest to us:

http://forums.gleemax.com/member.php?u=516092

There was an error in the B&R announcement.

The announcement erroneously said that Imperial Seal and Mana Crypt will be restrictedin Tribal Wars Classic and Prismatic because they "follow Online Classic." These are separate formats with their own B&R lists, and those two cards will not be restricted in those formats.

The announcement has been edited to reflect this.

Although, this means that Imperial Seal is going to be allowed as a 4x in Prismatic until December, since they didn't add anything at all about Prismatic once they fixed the announcement.

So it looks like it was a mistake to add things to a restricted list for Prix, however, I still think that a split of restricted/banned is a better idea for the format though. Although my line in the sand is a bit different than Ice's.

To me, any carte blanche tutor should remain banned. Any card that says: "Search your library for a card" & "put that card" & "hand" | "top of your library" should be banned. All other tutors should be restricted until they've proven their need to be banned.

Also, Prismatic really needs 'casual' options to not follow the B&R at all.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
I think you ought to go for a straight banned list and not a mix 'n' match of banned and restricted.
Either it's too powerful or it's not.

I disagree. Some cards are too powerful if you can build around but fine as a 1x. Best example I think are Wishes. If you want to use up 3-6 sideboard slots on targets for one wish go ahead but its fairly weak. Also cards like Congregation at Dawn would be too powerful as a 4x as you can just stack your deck with a creature based combo. As a 1x that danger is gone.

(Yeah, I'm cross posting this message, but I think it's relevant to both threads I'm posting it into, but I'll more to this post).

Something of interest to us:

http://forums.gleemax.com/member.php?u=516092



Although, this means that Imperial Seal is going to be allowed as a 4x in Prismatic until December, since they didn't add anything at all about Prismatic once they fixed the announcement.

So it looks like it was a mistake to add things to a restricted list for Prix, however, I still think that a split of restricted/banned is a better idea for the format though. Although my line in the sand is a bit different than Ice's.

Thanks for the update though good to know that Prismatic will be even more broken than before. Downside is there goes the precedent for restricted cards in Prismatic.

To me, any carte blanche tutor should remain banned. Any card that says: "Search your library for a card" & "put that card" & "hand" | "top of your library" should be banned. All other tutors should be restricted until they've proven their need to be banned.

I'd be careful saying the words "any tutor." I'm not sure how much Prismatic you play but Steelshaper's Gift and Dizzy Spell not big issues. Granted my list doesn't ban Clamp but the card is more fair when there is only one and you have to tutor it up. That said I could see restricting Trinket Mage if Clamp isn't banned.

Also, Prismatic really needs 'casual' options to not follow the B&R at all.

I vote no, just play Classic with a 250 card 5 color deck if you want that.
This list is too long. There is no way I could remember which cards are on the list.

Even if I did remember, then I have to remember which cards are banned and which ones are restricted.

I know prismatic players want to minimize cards that let people search, but I think at some point you have to just look at the list and say, this isn't feasible.

Perhaps prismatic really is dead. Maybe 100 card singleton should be its functional replacement. I know that is probably an unpopular thought, but how many cards are on that list? There is no way WotC can reliably and intelligently maintain that list.
This list is too long. There is no way I could remember which cards are on the list.

Even if I did remember, then I have to remember which cards are banned and which ones are restricted.

I know prismatic players want to minimize cards that let people search, but I think at some point you have to just look at the list and say, this isn't feasible.

Perhaps prismatic really is dead. Maybe 100 card singleton should be its functional replacement. I know that is probably an unpopular thought, but how many cards are on that list? There is no way WotC can reliably and intelligently maintain that list.

Okay never mind, cancel the format.
If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to remove all Banned cards and cease tournament support?

That throws it right back to being a casual format.
And without prize support the Spikes should (mostly) leave the format.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to remove all Banned cards and cease tournament support?

That throws it right back to being a casual format.
And without prize support the Spikes should (mostly) leave the format.

Prize support? You mean a Prismatic PE has actually been run recently and had enough players?
Perhaps prismatic really is dead. Maybe 100 card singleton should be its functional replacement.

The problem with this is far too many people play mono-colored 100-Card Singleton decks, taking virtually all the "Prismatic-style" variety out of the games. If 100-Card Singleton required a minimum 3-color deck, then maybe...
"ForestDrake, CONNOISSEUR OF CRYPTIC WRITTINGS !" After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F
Prize support? You mean a Prismatic PE has actually been run recently and had enough players?

Yeah Tempest no idea what you're talking about. Also:

If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to remove all Banned cards

You've said this idea twice. It is awful, is there any reason that people should be able to Sundering Titan and Battle of Wits in Prismatic? If so please enlighten me.
I agree pretty much whole heartedly with Iceage's list with the exception that I would seriously consider banning: Tooth, Enduring Ideal, and Personal Tutor (or restrict). I would add Traumatize and Summoning Pact to the restricted list.
I disagree with the bolded, and feel that they should be banned..

Banned - 12
Battle of Wits
Bribery
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Demonic Consultation
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Insidious Dreams
Mystical Tutor
Sundering Titan
Upheaval
Vampiric Tutor
Wild Research

Resritcted - 35
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening
Skullclamp
Tooth and Nail
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor

Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Living Wish

Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Quiet Speculation
Sterling Grove
Supply/Demand
Worldly Tutor
Tolaria West
Idyllic Tutor
Liliana Vess

Doomsday
Planar Portal
Mirari's Wake
Protean Hulk
Grindstone (preemptive restriction)

Cards that are banned (or should be) that I don't have on my lists:
Brainspoil
Clutch of the Undercity
Dimir House Guard
Dimir Machinations
Dizzy Spell
Drift of Phantasms
Ethereal Usher
Grozoth
Netherborn Phalanx
Perplex
Summoner's Pact
Beseech the Queen
Primal Command



What do other people think?

The idea of a banned list in a Classic format baffles me since its the format were Wizos says that every card has a chance of seeing play.

It's not a Classic format. It's its own format that has similarities to Classic.
Revised list, changes in bold. I personally don't think cards like Enduring Ideal are that dangerous in Prismatic if they are restricted. You could build a deck around it but it would be slow requiring you to tutor for and play a seven mana sorcery. I don't think combo should be impossible so keeping some cards off the ban list seems like a good idea.

Lilliana I don't think is too powerful but I think is a fine card to ban as it is a repeatable tutor without the work required of say Demonic Collusion.

One card I'm on the fence about is Congregation at Dawn. Tutoring for three cards is powerful though it is slow and potential combo uses are easily disruptable.

I like everyone's input but comments are better than just saying X should be banned and Y unrestricted!

Banned - 13
Battle of Wits
Bribery
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Demonic Consultation
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Insidious Dreams
Liliana Vess
Mystical Tutor
Sundering Titan
Tooth and Nail
Upheaval
Vampiric Tutor
Wild Research

Resritcted - 38
Beseech the Queen
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening
Skullclamp
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Doomsday
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Grindstone (preemptive restriction)
Idyllic Tutor
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Personal Tutor
Protean Hulk
Planar Portal
Primal Command
Quiet Speculation
Sterling Grove
Summoner's Pact
Supply/Demand
Tolaria West
Worldly Tutor
World Gouger Dragon

Cards that are banned (or should be) that I don't have on my lists:
Brainspoil
Clutch of the Undercity
Dimir House Guard
Dimir Machinations
Dizzy Spell
Drift of Phantasms
Ethereal Usher
Grozoth
Netherborn Phalanx
Perplex
Figured I should comment on a few cards that I think shouldn't be banned unless all tutors get the axe:

#1 The wishes - If you are running a Wish you have to give up sideboard slots. You also have to give up maindeck slots. In Extended people would run 4 Burning Wish, 3 Life From the Loam and the 4th Loam in the sideboard. This gave you 7 effective maindeck copies.

With Wishes restricted lets say you really want to tutor up Mind's Desire. You can run 4 maindeck or 3 maindeck and one sideboard to wish for. This gives no no greater chance to draw it. It does let you transmute a 2cc spell to get Burning Wish to get Mind's Desire. You can do that but do you want to?

This all goes out the window in untimed games but I think as the default on v3 is timed games this is no issue.

#2 Diabolic Intent - If you have a creature focused deck this card is okay but you loose a creature to tutor which is a tempo loss. If you're a creature-light combo or control deck this card won't be very good to run as you often can't cast it.

#3 Sterling Grove - This is a narrower, slower Enlightened Tutor. Sure it has protection aspects but if you want that there are better, unrestricted options.

#4 Tolaria West - Tolaria West is imo the best Transmute card. It can always be dropped as a land. It also tutors up such hits as Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt, Mana Crypt, Simic Growth Chamber, Urza's Factory and more. However I see no harm in letting people run one. It even opens the option to Slyvan Scrying for Tolaria West for Engeneered Explosives. I like slow expensive tutor chains and its hard to argue they are broken.

I don't think T West should be a 4x because then it becomes an auto include in every non aggro deck and the best land in them.

On another note these are cards I'm on the fence as to banning them:
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion (much more powerful imo)
Congregation at Dawn
Planar Portal
Doom's Day
Angry Tapper, I would disagree with many of the things you suggest for banning as your adjustments to Iceage's list are not consistent.

For example, if you are going to ban:
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Sterling Grove
Worldly Tutor

And you are not banning:
Buried Alive
Entomb
Fabricate
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Quiet Speculation
Supply/Demand

Then you are just showing blatant bias towards certain cards and not others of the same limited tutor variety. Not to mention that many of those selected for banning are far weaker than many of the ones you are leaving restricted.

Other Tutors such as: Diabolic Intent, Diabolic Tutor, Demonic Collusion, and Planar Portal are costed such that their inclusion as restricted cards should not be a problem. Diabolic Intent has the cost of casting a creature and then sacrificing that creature, Diabolic Tutor is just too expensive, Demonic Collusion is even more expensive and requires you to first search up something like life from the loam to abuse meaning that you spend BBBB6 or 10 mana before getting your first actual card in this case. Then Planar portal is even worse. Planar Portal is 12 mana before you get a card to use. Mind Slaver is far better for 2 mana cheaper. I wouldn't even say Planar Portal is even abusive until you search up 3-4 cards and that is 24-30 mana! You should be winning at this point. It shouldn't matter what card you are using.

I think the most debatable card for banning or restricted is Congregation at Dawn. It should definitely be restricted, but as Iceage said it is easily disruptable and you have to wait three turns to get all three creatures outside extra card drawing.

I really like the philosophy behind Icaeage's list. Speaking specifically about the tutors, I like the idea of banning the easy to use repeatable tutor's like Bringer of the Black Dawn and Liliana, which don't require extra mana or Wild research, which is far too mana efficient, and also banning the extremely efficient ones like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. Then restricting all of the rest of the nonland limited tutors or higher CC anything tutors.

Combo has a place in prismatic and needs tutors to be viable. Currently it is near unplayable. Also deck revolving around specific cards need to be viable to allow for greater diversity and tutors need to exist for those decks to find those cards. Without tutors the only competitive decks end up being very general such as generic aggro, generic control, and generic mid-range. You lose many creative options such as a control deck built around salvaging station for instance because now there is no way to reliably find it. There are many other similar build around me cards that are just not viable for use without a reliable amount of tutors.

On the topic of wishes. I believe Iceage is correct. With them restricted it eliminates the reason for them being banned. Acting as copies 5-7 (or 4-7 depending on technicality) of a card in your deck. They then become good for utility the same way the something like vindicate is good for utility, except that you have to spend some extra mana for that utility.
I've added some comments to the most recent list (below):

A note on sideboards. I believe side boards should be 0 or 60 cards. 60 makes sense as a proportion of your deck equivalent to 15 cards in a 60 card deck. Actually having a 60 card sideboard may open up more cards to play as you will have a lot more tools to bring in against combo or aggro or control (depending on your deck choice)



Banned - 13
Battle of Wits

Bribery - Restricted at best; maybe unrestricted

Bringer of the Black Dawn - see Liliana

Demonic Consultation - I might like to see tutors of this power restricted instead of banned. I'd like to be able to play with as may cards as possible.

Gifts Ungiven

Imperial Seal - see demonic consultation

Insidious Dreams

Liliana Vess - I would be OK with trying this and black bringer as restricted

Mystical Tutor - see demonic consultation

Sundering Titan

Tooth and Nail

Upheaval - this card should NOT have been banned. Its a perfectly fair card (at least as fair as rude awakening which you don't have on your list). It gives the more controlling decks a strategy. Our entire format right now is aggro or mid range. Upheaval (and rude awakening) give some end game teeth to control.

Vampiric Tutor - see demonic consultation

Wild Research

Resritcted - 38
Beseech the Queen - Close call on this one; but I guess.

Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt

Rude Awakening - should not be restricted nor banned. CONTROL needs help

Skullclamp
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion

Doomsday - personally I wouldn't bother. If doomsday combo is OK in the environment then might as well let them run all 4. Otherwise just ban it if Doomsday turns out to be too good. Its a one card combo so not much use in restricting it with all the tutors around.

Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish

Grindstone (preemptive restriction) - Can we at least SEE if painter/grindstone is an issue? Its slower to draw/tutor in to the combo than in vintage. I want to make sure combo has some choices.

Idyllic Tutor
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Personal Tutor
Protean Hulk

Planar Portal - unrestrict. this doesn't see any play as is

Primal Command

Quiet Speculation - this is not restricted in 5-color ...

Sterling Grove
Summoner's Pact
Supply/Demand
Tolaria West
Worldly Tutor

World Gouger Dragon - huh? can't see any reason for this. Combo should have options and this is another one


Thats my 2c

The list you show would make combo crazy.

As far as some for your comments my list is not based on making the perfect tournament format, I don't think Prismatic will ever be that. As far as Upheaval and Rude Awakening. The problem with both cards is mostly casual games. If I can run cards of that power level I will. Upheaval is just an increadibly annoying card that also happens to be very powerful. In casual Prismatic it is just broken.

Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.

Rude Awakening is also powerful but I don't think on the same level. It also doesn't have the not fun bounce everything discard 10 cards factor.
The list you show would make combo crazy.

As far as some for your comments my list is not based on making the perfect tournament format, I don't think Prismatic will ever be that. As far as Upheaval and Rude Awakening. The problem with both cards is mostly casual games. If I can run cards of that power level I will. Upheaval is just an increadibly annoying card that also happens to be very powerful. In casual Prismatic it is just broken.

Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.

Rude Awakening is also powerful but I don't think on the same level. It also doesn't have the not fun bounce everything discard 10 cards factor.

Combo Crazy = OK, lets give it a try here. Aren't you sick to death of aggro.dec (or at best mid-range-aggro.dec) yet? I don't want combo to be *the* deck, but isn't it supposed to be viable? If we go to far we can carve it back.

Re: Upheaval and Rude - people who want casual games should either specify that in the description or play prismatic singleton (or both, like I do when I want a fun game with my singleton invasion block only deck).

There is nothing casual about getting run over by aggro prismatic either - at least give some of the higher mana decks more tools.

It seems you're starting to make some of the same arguments that the people who messed up the B&R list did in the first place - that prismatic is supposed to be "fun and casual" - but that is an undefinable term. Fun and casual mean different things to different players.

Prismatic needs to be a HEALTHY format first and foremost, and neutering strict control and combo (because they're "unfun") does not a healthy format make.
Wake in play, float 20 mana, cast Upheaval gg.

Also not to nitpick but if I had wake in play and floated 20 mana (10 lands?) I would think fireball to the dome might be a better choice

I guess my point is that if you're playing a deck with wake and upheaval once you get a lot of mana in play you likely should win - it means you've survived the aggro rush and combo's attempts to go off.
PRISMATIC IS A CASUAL FORMAT.

If you're running into a lot of aggro decks is the casual room that is quite odd.

Your recommendation that people wanting a casual format should play Prismatic Singleton is stupid. If someone wanted to play Classic casually should they play Singleton?

As far as Upheaval goes it got banned in Singleton which it was not as good so I think banning it in Prismatic is fine. If you allow one copy there will be decks that run 4 Tog, get one of them then tutor up Upheaval and win.

Maybe this wouldn't be a problem in tournaments but as tournaments for Prismatic don't exist lets focus on what does.

Not to mention that these changes give many new options to control/combo/mid range all of which have done better in events than you imply.
PRISMATIC IS A CASUAL FORMAT.

THEN WHY ARE THERE PES WITH PRIZES FOR IT? AND POTENTIAL 8 MAN 321 SWISS EVENTS?

If you want to play it with your friends casually and make up your own B&R list thats fine.

CASUAL is not a definition of anything. I think people have proven time and time again that there is way too much interpretation in that word. We need a goal that has a meaningful definition.

HEALTHY (diverse options) or BALANCED (control > combo > aggro > control) are fine choices in the context of magic history. CASUAL is not a basis for anything but someone telling you your deck is not casual and calling your ideas stupid.

In the context of HEALTHY and BALANCED it is important that the 3 basic deck archetypes are represented and the B&R list's sole function is to ensure this balance.

I'm willing to debate card choices on a B&R list that further the HEALTHY and BALANCED goal (and those choices are very debatable), but I'm not going to argue about whether a card is CASUAL or not.
I've been doing a lot of research on this topic (the evolution of Prismatic), and it WAS a casual format that started to get bannings. Then it became a competitive format and they decided to continue the bannings that were originally intended for a strictly casual format.

Now we have a format that, for lack of a better term, is poorly handled.

Something large needs to happen to the format in one direction or another. Either bring it back to a casual (non-competitive) format, or make the format balanced in a competitive environment. And that means making it so that Combo and Control have the tools and ability to fight against the other decks in the format.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
THEN WHY ARE THERE PES WITH PRIZES FOR IT? AND POTENTIAL 8 MAN 321 SWISS EVENTS?

If you want to play it with your friends casually and make up your own B&R list thats fine.

CASUAL is not a definition of anything. I think people have proven time and time again that there is way too much interpretation in that word. We need a goal that has a meaningful definition.

HEALTHY (diverse options) or BALANCED (control > combo > aggro > control) are fine choices in the context of magic history. CASUAL is not a basis for anything but someone telling you your deck is not casual and calling your ideas stupid.

In the context of HEALTHY and BALANCED it is important that the 3 basic deck archetypes are represented and the B&R list's sole function is to ensure this balance.

I'm willing to debate card choices on a B&R list that further the HEALTHY and BALANCED goal (and those choices are very debatable), but I'm not going to argue about whether a card is CASUAL or not.

Wait 8 mans and 3-2-1 swiss? Let me know if that ever happens.

Personally I think your list makes Combo>Control, Combo>Aggro. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

And on another note I don't think that Prismatic will ever be perfectly balanced and think it is an awful format if you're looking for the most balanced tournament play possible. I think the &BR should try and make events balanced while also keeping the casual room fun. The casual rooms account for 100% of play for the past however many months.


One thing that I think people should also keep in mind is that 2 card combos in Prismatic are degenerate because people just stick them in control decks. When Flash was legal the last PE with it had a ton of control decks that just said "oops i win." I think combo should be in Prismatic but I don't think it should be as strong as control or aggro. Combo is prismatic is much more random than other formats. In that PE I lost to Flash t2 and let me tell you, that was a fun game. If Prismatic becomes a competitive format again (seems impossible in current state of v3) I think that it should be noted that people (at least all the ones I know) play it for fun. So yeah make it balanced but don't have people lucksacing t2 wins.
Wait 8 mans and 3-2-1 swiss? Let me know if that ever happens.

Personally I think your list makes Combo>Control, Combo>Aggro. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

And on another note I don't think that Prismatic will ever be perfectly balanced and think it is an awful format if you're looking for the most balanced tournament play possible. I think the &BR should try and make events balanced while also keeping the casual room fun. The casual rooms account for 100% of play for the past however many months.


One thing that I think people should also keep in mind is that 2 card combos in Prismatic are degenerate because people just stick them in control decks. When Flash was legal the last PE with it had a ton of control decks that just said "oops i win." I think combo should be in Prismatic but I don't think it should be as strong as control or aggro. Combo is prismatic is much more random than other formats. In that PE I lost to Flash t2 and let me tell you, that was a fun game. If Prismatic becomes a competitive format again (seems impossible in current state of v3) I think that it should be noted that people (at least all the ones I know) play it for fun. So yeah make it balanced but don't have people lucksacing t2 wins.

I think I agree with your point to some degree that perhaps combo should be ever-so-slightly weaker than it would be in a 60 card deck. Perhaps banning grindstone, doomsday, flash would make sense in an effort to force 3 card combos?

I'm not sure what the appropriate way to do it is; but I don't think we'll ever get to find out if we keep everything that combo would need to work banned as is the current situation.

Another solution which I don't hear much discussion on is the 60 card sideboard. That would really give decks the tools to bring in enough hate to matter if a certain combo or set of cards got out of control.
I think I agree with your point to some degree that perhaps combo should be ever-so-slightly weaker than it would be in a 60 card deck. Perhaps banning grindstone, doomsday, flash would make sense in an effort to force 3 card combos?

I'm not sure what the appropriate way to do it is; but I don't think we'll ever get to find out if we keep everything that combo would need to work banned as is the current situation.

Another solution which I don't hear much discussion on is the 60 card sideboard. That would really give decks the tools to bring in enough hate to matter if a certain combo or set of cards got out of control.

I kind of like just restricting key parts of 2 card combos. I'm fine with combos that take a while to set up. THe random luck sac combos that can also reliabliy be tutored up are what I have a bigger issue with.

I don't like 60 cards in the board but I think 15 cards is the worst. I'd love to see 0 or 25-45.
I just want to make sure I'm on the right page here.

Who is suggesting we bring Prismatic back to Casual only, and rebuild the B&R around making it a good casual format?

Who is suggesting we make Prismatic a 'balanced' tournament format.

Because from what I can see there are people debating their sides while talking about differing end results.

Personally I want to see a tournament viable format come out of all of this. However, any steps we take towards tournament viability has the consequence of impacting the casual players.

Also, a radical thought:

Is the spirit Prismatic able to be saved anymore? The deck building restrictions of 4x of cards seems to favor certain things more than others. The last few sets have been focusing on color pairs (Ravnica Block), hybrid color pairs (Shadowmoor), and now we're getting Shards of Alara which is focusing on three color stuff. Building decks that 'meet' the current requirements are ridiculously easy to do. 20 of each color with the available cards? Not even an issue.

So I wonder... what does Prismatic give us that Prismatic Singleton doesn't? (With Sundering Titan, Battle of Wits, Rude Awakening and Upheaval banned).

What about Pris Singleton becoming the Competitive format (easier to maintain) and Prismatic becoming the Casual format? Or vice versa?

Thoughts?

Mostly what I'm trying to do here is figure out what makes sense to get a) a casual format for big decks and b) a balancable big deck format for tournaments.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
I want Prismatic to be a fun casual format where tournaments can be held without one deck style getting 6/8 t8 slots. Keep in mind even if balanced perfectly with 3-4 deck archetypes it wouldn't be that odd for aggro or control to take five slots.

As far as Prismatic v Singleton there are so many diffrences.

#1 Mana bases are rock solid in Prismatic. My most recent deck needs WWUUUBBRRGG to cast everything and it has not been an issue in 19/20 games. Prismatic Singleton the mana works but not as well. It also tends to be slower have more comes into play tapped lands.

#2 You can ignore mana fixing in Prismatic. In PS you generally run signets, or green cards to fix your mana. I know this ties in to my first point but both are important for #3.

#3 Prismatic aggro is an amazing deck, less so in singleton. In addition to having having access to the best of the spells Prismatic's mana base lets you play Kird Ape t1 and Dark Confidant t2 with no issues. With the current B&R aggro is overpowered but I think we can fix that (also you can build a deck that crushes aggro if that is your goal.)

#4 Building a Prismatic deck can involve more skill. In Singleton you just ask yourself "do I run this card" in Prismatic you have to ask "how many of this card do I run?" For example running one of a card as a tutor target or how many of x dual land to run.

#5 Prismatic Singleton sees more unbalanced draws. As the best cards from Prismatic are still played there can be very powerful hands. As weaker cards are played there can be less powerful ones. Prismatic Singleton sometimes one person draws well while the other twiddles their thumbs.

#6 Singleton and Prismatic both offer a challenge for deck building. You want to have a consistent deck in an inconsistent format. Prismatic Singleton you can't build nearly as consistent a deck which causes #5.

#7 In Prismatic you can count on playing your favorite cards fairly often. The same can not be said for PS. I don't think we should force people into 250 card singleton decks, lets keep it optional.

So yeah I think that PS would be an awful replacement for Prismatic.
I want Prismatic to be a fun casual format where tournaments can be held without one deck style getting 6/8 t8 slots. Keep in mind even if balanced perfectly with 3-4 deck archetypes it wouldn't be that odd for aggro or control to take five slots.

Okay... so you're looking for both. That's going to be very, very tricky, but we won't know how hard until we try it.

This would be my suggestion as of right now. I put the transmutes into the restricted section and moved Wild Research into the restricted section, due to the mana requirements, the random discard, and the limited nature of its tutoring).

By and large, I agree with list below. I've fought in the past for the format to pick up a restricted list along the way so that combo and control can at least attempt to fight against aggro decks.

Banned:
Battle of Wits
Bribery
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Demonic Consultation
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Insidious Dreams
Liliana Vess
Mystical Tutor
Sundering Titan
Tooth and Nail
Upheaval
Vampiric Tutor

Resritcted:
Beseech the Queen
Life From the Loam
Detritivore
Enduring Ideal
Flash
Mana Crypt
Rude Awakening
Skullclamp
Buried Alive
Burning Wish
Congregation at Dawn
Cunning Wish
Diabolic Intent
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Doomsday
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fabricate
Glittering Wish
Grindstone (preemptive restriction)
Idyllic Tutor
Living Wish
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Personal Tutor
Protean Hulk
Planar Portal
Primal Command
Quiet Speculation
Sterling Grove
Summoner's Pact
Supply/Demand
Tolaria West
Worldly Tutor
Worldgorger Dragon
Brainspoil
Clutch of the Undercity
Dimir House Guard
Dimir Machinations
Dizzy Spell
Drift of Phantasms
Ethereal Usher
Grozoth
Netherborn Phalanx
Perplex
Wild Research


This is based on the list in your last post with the transmutes put under restricted and the weird tutor of wild research under the restricted list as well.

My only thought is that Detrivore is only restricted while sundering titan has remained banned. This seems odd as they function very similarly to one another in the format. But perhaps they are different enough to warrant differing placements.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
This is based on the list in your last post with the transmutes put under restricted and the weird tutor of wild research under the restricted list as well.

My only thought is that Detrivore is only restricted while sundering titan has remained banned. This seems odd as they function very similarly to one another in the format. But perhaps they are different enough to warrant differing placements.

Wild Research is totally degenerate in Prismatic imo and I don't think should be allowed not matter what.

I also think there is no need to restrict the transmutes. What overpowering thing are your tutoring for? Concreate examples would be nice.

Detrivore is expensive and slow. To get Sundering Titan's comes into play effect you'd have to spend 9 mana and then wait five turns. Sundering Titan can be cheated into play or just hardcast. When he does he basically wipes your opponent's mana base out. When Detrivore was legal he was highly annoying. Your opponent would suspend it for 3 or 4 and there was nothing you could do about it. It however was not always game over. 'Vore is powerful in Prismatic but not game ending like Titan. However based on the power, uncounterability, and annoyance of Detritvore I think it should be restricted. It is too weak for me to ban it in good conscious (compared to the other banned non-tutors).
Wild Research is totally degenerate in Prismatic imo and I don't think should be allowed not matter what.

I also think there is no need to restrict the transmutes. What overpowering thing are your tutoring for? Concreate examples would be nice.

Detrivore is expensive and slow. To get Sundering Titan's comes into play effect you'd have to spend 9 mana and then wait five turns. Sundering Titan can be cheated into play or just hardcast. When he does he basically wipes your opponent's mana base out. When Detrivore was legal he was highly annoying. Your opponent would suspend it for 3 or 4 and there was nothing you could do about it. It however was not always game over. 'Vore is powerful in Prismatic but not game ending like Titan. However based on the power, uncounterability, and annoyance of Detritvore I think it should be restricted. It is too weak for me to ban it in good conscious (compared to the other banned non-tutors).

"Wild Research is totally degenerate in Prismatic imo and I don't think should be allowed not matter what."

I'm curious about when you played Wild Research in the format, as it's been banned since its inception: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/magiconline/casualformat2

I don't see how it's any worse than many of the other restricted, but not banned, tutors in the format. If you'd like me to provide examples so I'll ask the same from you. Concrete examples from how a singleton Wild Research has done broken things.

Can it do broken things? I'm sure it can. Can a 1x enchantment that might cost you the card you searched for be answered? I think so, but I'd like to find out. It seems strong, but I don't see the problem of allowing it in the format.

As for the transmutes, I recall we had this exact discussion when I asked for their banning, but you seem to have forgotten my point so I'll restate it in summary.

for 1UU, 1UB or 1BB you can search for whatever it is that fixes the situation or wins the game outright.

Burn for the win, removal and card draw are all searchable from any of the transmutes. As we get more and more sets online the number of cards that become targets increase. I put each of them along the same lines as Merchant Scroll or Worldly Tutor. They aren't always the best card, but they become more and more powerful the more and more sets worth of cards they have access to. Any restriction of narrow tutors should include them, IMO.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
As for the transmutes, I recall we had this exact discussion when I asked for their banning, but you seem to have forgotten my point so I'll restate it in summary.

for 1UU, 1UB or 1BB you can search for whatever it is that fixes the situation or wins the game outright.

Burn for the win, removal and card draw are all searchable from any of the transmutes. As we get more and more sets online the number of cards that become targets increase. I put each of them along the same lines as Merchant Scroll or Worldly Tutor. They aren't always the best card, but they become more and more powerful the more and more sets worth of cards they have access to. Any restriction of narrow tutors should include them, IMO.

The transmutes are not that powerful. No offense but 90% of the time no 3cc spell will win the game. Tutoring for removal might prolong the game. Also how often are you in a situation where your opponent is on 3 life and you have a transmute card in hand? Not to mention you're running burn and transmutes in the same deck.

So basically you're saying restrict them because for 1BB+3 more mana you can cast a well timed burn spell? That seems fine but unimpressive. Saying that Dizzy Spell needs restricting in classic annoys me because 4 mana for a one drop is fairly mediocre.

As far as Wild Research I've played it in 200+ card Classic decks (also banned in 5 Color FYI) and the card is bonkers.

As far as to why its broken in Prismatic I think that should be clear. Cast it t3 tutor up 2 Fact or Fictions t4? The low mana cost makes this a very abusable repeatable tutor. After those FoF's they can just tutor lots of counterspells and lock you out of the game. Running low on cards? Get Opportunity if you're out of FoFs.
Three things.

1) For the same reason I don't accept "It's restricted in Vintage" as a reason to restrict something in Classic, I don't accept "It's banned in 5 Color" as a reason to ban something in Prismatic. I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss what to do with Prismatic, but according to that defense it doesn't matter and we should just mirror 5 Color.

2) The very good description you just gave proves that we need it in the format. Combo and control are woefully underpowered for dealing with aggro Prismatic decks. I think a 1x of card that can do what you described sounds fantastic for the format. So when you've said that it's totally degenerate in prismatic, you really meant to say that it worked well in a deck that wasn't a prismatic deck and wasn't facing off against other prismatic decks... just clarifying

3) The power of the transmutes is the same power of all the other restricted tutors. I'm not sure why you don't believe that. How many cards does Merchant Scroll tutor for that will win the game? From what game position? Tutoring for a mana cost is less restrictive than tutoring for a colored instant/sorcery. To use your example: what can kill an opponent from CMC=3?
Invoke the firemind
Urza's Rage
Soul Burn
Pulse of the Forge
the many other burn spells that do 3+ damage.
Or, transmute it into a Krosan Grip to uncounterably kill your opponents Wild Research. Or into another split second removal spell. No offense intended, but these cards tutor for a very wide range of cards, and nothing anyone says will make me think that they don't do so. If we're restricting/banning restrictive tutors these 15 are restrictive tutors. I will admit that the higher cost ones are less dangerous given our current card pool, so I would have no problems with the 4+ mana transmutes being unrestricted until there are enough worthy targets for their searching. However, the 3CC and under are quite decent at what they do.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
Three things.

1) For the same reason I don't accept "It's restricted in Vintage" as a reason to restrict something in Classic, I don't accept "It's banned in 5 Color" as a reason to ban something in Prismatic. I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss what to do with Prismatic, but according to that defense it doesn't matter and we should just mirror 5 Color.

2) The very good description you just gave proves that we need it in the format. Combo and control are woefully underpowered for dealing with aggro Prismatic decks. I think a 1x of card that can do what you described sounds fantastic for the format. So when you've said that it's totally degenerate in prismatic, you really meant to say that it worked well in a deck that wasn't a prismatic deck and wasn't facing off against other prismatic decks... just clarifying

3) The power of the transmutes is the same power of all the other restricted tutors. I'm not sure why you don't believe that. How many cards does Merchant Scroll tutor for that will win the game? From what game position? Tutoring for a mana cost is less restrictive than tutoring for a colored instant/sorcery. To use your example: what can kill an opponent from CMC=3?
Invoke the firemind
Urza's Rage
Soul Burn
Pulse of the Forge
the many other burn spells that do 3+ damage.
Or, transmute it into a Krosan Grip to uncounterably kill your opponents Wild Research. Or into another split second removal spell. No offense intended, but these cards tutor for a very wide range of cards, and nothing anyone says will make me think that they don't do so. If we're restricting/banning restrictive tutors these 15 are restrictive tutors. I will admit that the higher cost ones are less dangerous given our current card pool, so I would have no problems with the 4+ mana transmutes being unrestricted until there are enough worthy targets for their searching. However, the 3CC and under are quite decent at what they do.

Gonna break this into sections:

Wild Research

Here is the thing, Wild Research does not help control decks beat aggro. It is too slow vs aggro. However it breaks the mirror in half.

As an example, when they banned Upheaval, Jitte, and Flash in Singleton the Jitte ban and the Upheaval ban helped aggro. Upheaval was controls strongest finisher so that is fairly clear were the damage was done. Jitte's ban helped aggro because the card was mostly useful in the mirror. Jitte is not a good card vs control, its second two abilities are rarely relevant and creature removal shuts it down. Many times I'd let Jitte resolve with a counter in my hand because I knew it wouldn't be relevant.

Saying Wild Research should be restricted to help control is the Jitte problem. It helps control in the mirror but if you have time to abuse it vs aggro you've already won.

Transmutes

As far as the transmutes I couldn't disagree more. I think Brainspoil is the most powerful transmute in non combo decks. First off I wouldn't run many in non combo decks because they are slow but if I run them Brainspoil it is. It gets Wake, Meloku, Force of Will, and many other powerful cards. Also paying 8 mana for a Wake is better than paying 6 mana for an Urza's Rage. On the subject of Urza's Rage all your 3cmc cards that win the game are burn spells. Who is doing this transmuting? If it is a control deck their opponent will be on 16. If it is an aggro deck you're an idiot for playing transmutes. Oh and no mention of Dizzy Spell?

Prismatic v 5 Color

Thanks for bring up Classic v Vintage, quite relevant to the conversation at hand.

As far as mentioning it in regards to 5c that is not the reason I gave. It was something I used to support my point but that was not my reason.

Speaking of 5c I'd really not recommend trying to pick a fight over me wanting to mirror 5c as Dizzy Spell is one of the few restricted transmutes in that format.

Add the fact that CoW is banned, Demonic Collusion is a 4x, Weathered Wayfarer is restricted, I could go on but I hope you get the point.

Cards banned in 5c are only the strongest tutors and cards in the format. Mentioning a card is banned in 5c is not a reason to ban it online but it sure doesn't hurt your argument.

Edit: One question I do have is how much Prismatic you play, I can't remember ever playing against you in it. I will freely admit I didn't play Prismatic on v3 till recently mostly due to split cards bugging my first attempt at a new deck. That said I played tons of games on v2 and have been playing a lot recently. I also played in most of the (few) Prismatic events that happened after they ended the weekly slot.

Edit #2: I like that Transmuting for Grip is a 6cc answer to a 3cc spell. That I think shows a huge part of the weakness of transmutes. Not to mention a good player will activate it in response to transmute and grab a Stifle or Voidslime.
Then we're at an impass regarding Wild Research and the Transmutes and I don't think either of us will budge. But that's okay.

I will answer a few of your personal questions, despite them being off topic of the discussion.

How much Pris have I played? Probably not as much as you, that's for sure. I have played it on and off under V2, then not much since they stopped banning the cards in the format due to what I was told by a WotC Development Guy at the time. Since then I haven't had the desire to build a deck just to watch it get torn to shreds post bannings. Sadly, those bannings never came and I've been missing the format. But of course, I don't have to play the format every day to talk about it, do I? That seems frightfully foolish to require. I no longer play PDC, but I love to think about it and discuss the format.

The reason I brougth Classic v. Vintage up is because you attempted to use 5color as a basis for Prismatic in much the same way that comparing lists in Vintage and Classic is flawed.

So I think it's probably time to move past this issue and go back to other aspects of the discussion. We've each made our point and we're neither one going to switch our decisions without further evidence to the contrary. I'm sure that we (as each enjoyers of the format) can discuss other issues without getting hung up on these few cards.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
Also, I think that for the benefit of any WotC'ers that might stumble upon this thread that it would be a good idea to consolidate our pro's/con's regarding the differences.

My reasoning:
Restrict transmutes - They are no less restrictive than other proposed restricted tutors, and as the sets on MTGO grow they too grow in strength.

Don't ban, but restrict, Wild Research - The 'random' nature of the card, coupled with it being a restricted card feels fair. At least fair enough to give it a try while the format is being restarted.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
Sign In to post comments