Multiplayer Gents Prismatic

There has been lots of discussion about what is allowed in Prismatic gents decks in the multiplayer room. I am going to list the concerns that everyone poses both here and in the game. It is generally agreed that a fun prismatic game involves different decks attempting different strategies, not some players sitting around while others play. That is the overarching concern of all these rules, and the most valid concern for proposing a new rule. The game itself restricts searches, and that is part of the fun of a large deck.

I am also going to list rules that people have proposed. Since it is only fair to give the game the presumption of setting the rules, each rule that is proposed will be accepted if it has two people who want it more than the people who object. I will try to keep an accurate listing of who is for and against any rule, so please post if I make mistakes. All rules proposed will be listed, but only those in bold will be in effect because they currently have the proper number of votes (2 more supporters than objectors.)

Voting is limited to people who play prismatic in the multiplayer room online on a regular basis.

Issues

Mana tampering

It has generally been the rule that all mana only land cannot be destroyed. This has included removing from game, bouncing, borrowing or stealing mana only land. This is because messing with an opponent's mana base can easily destroy the ability to do anything at all. Tapping, keeping land from untapping, changing land types (Blood Moon) and similar manipulation constitute a gray area.

On the other hand, declaring a whole class of cards as untouchable can lead to abuses. For example, certain cards depend on the number of lands you control such as Nightmare. Lands can be animated by genjus and other cards. Some lands themselves have multiple purposes.

Some cards, such as Overgrowth, Birds of Paradise and signets usually provide only mana. These cards can also be used to help with affinity, blocking, enchantresses or counting as creatures for the purpose of other cards.

Discard

It is generally accepted that some discard is allowed. Some players would ban discard altogether. The rule as is currently usually played restricts discard to two cards discarded from each opponent in each turn.

Loops

Infinite loops, when executed quickly can be a winning combination that some feel is perfectly fine. The problem is that infinite loops can sometimes be annoyingly long, interrupt the game and force the opponents to sit around waiting for long periods. Kiki-Jiki is a card that can be used to create an infinite loop easily in combination with cards such as Intruder Alarm.

Deck search

The game allows some search and disallows others. Some effects, such Liliana, duplicate banned forms of search. Land search, on the other hand, is very common and helps make the game easier to play.

Lockdown

Certain cards stop opponents from being able to play for a period of time. This includes Decree of Silence. Some effects cause complete loss of control or make it impossible for opponents to play. For example, Mindslaver, Brine Elemental, Yosei or Tidespout Tyrant can be used to keep opponents from taking action for an extended period. Erayo can be used with Rule of Law to cause an almost complete lockdown permanently.

Extra turns

Certain cards give a single player extra turns or change the order of play. These cards can also be used as part of an infinite loop of turns.

Deck destruction

Because prismatic requires at least 250 cards in the deck, it is difficult to remove a player's library. It is not impossible. Traumatize and Haunting Echoes can be used effectively in games that are not singleton. Tormod's Crypt can be used to heavily limit the cards that can be retrieved, including basic lands. Aven Mindcensor can heavily limit the ability to fetch lands. Some cards can be used to empty a deck of certain types of cards, which can actually be a benefit. For example, a Journeyer's Kite can be used to remove lands from the deck to increase spell-draws or simply shuffle the deck.

Simplicity

The proliferation of a lot of rules can lead to further confusion and limit the number of people willing to construct a deck to its specifications.

Rules (persons for/persons against)

Deck construction

  • Limit the number of counterspells to below 5% of deck (Mothership, Argyris, rebrab, Nyghthunter/AnimalWedding, fresst00)
  • Limit the use of board clearing cards (Akroma's Vengeance, Final Judgement, Damnation, Decree of Pain) to one of each card. (Argyris, rebrab/Mothership, AnimalWedding)
  • Limit use of counterspells to one of each card. (rebrab/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding)
  • Limit counterspells to 20 or less in the deck total. (Argyris, wilf, rebrab, fresst00/Mothership, AnimalWedding)
  • Ban counterspells to 10 or less in the deck total. (Argyris, wilf, rebrab/Mothership, AnimalWedding, fresst00)
  • Ban use of counterspells that do not go to graveyard after use (Counterbalance, Patron Wizard). (Argyris, rebrab/AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban use of all counterspells and counter effects. (Racer I./MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00)
  • Ban use of permanently cycling cards. (Reality Strobe, etc). (Briddums, rebrab/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban use of permanent theft (Evangelize).(Argyris, Mothership, Racer I., rebrab/Briddums, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban putting cards from opponents' decks into play under your permanent control (Acquire). (Racer I., wilf, rebrab/Argyris, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban putting cards from opponents' graveyard into play under your permanent control (Night's Eye, Beacon of Unrest). (Racer I., wilf, rebrab/Argyris, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban remove from game effects (Crib Swap, Cremate). (Racer I./, MoonWraith, rebrab), fresst00
  • Ban turn manipulation. (Nyghthunter, fresst00/)


Game play
  • Ban discard (Racer I., Argyris/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00)
  • Ban discard greater than 1 per turn (/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00)
  • Ban discard greater than 1 per player (Argyris, rebrab, fresst00/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith)
  • Ban discard greater than 2 per turn (rebrab/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban discard greater than 2 per player (Argyris, Mothership, Briddums, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, wilf, rebrab, fresst00/)
  • Ban repeat discard by a card that does not go to the graveyard. (Argyris, wilf, rebrab, fresst00/)
  • Ban mana only land destruction (Argyris, Mothership, Briddums, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, wilf, rebrab, fresst00/)
  • Ban all mana manipulation against opponents (Mothership, rebrab, fresst00/Argyris, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith)
  • Ban destruction of mana only artifacts (Mothership, AnimalWedding, Racer I., rebrab/Argyris, Briddums, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban destruction of mana only creatures (Mothership, AnimalWedding, rebrab/Argyris, Briddums, Racer I., MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban manipulation of mana producing cards against a player unable to produce 1 mana of each color and 5 mana in total. (Mothership, Argyris, MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00/AnimalWedding)
  • Ban counterspell of land fetch (Mothership, Racer I., wilf, rebrab, fresst00/Briddums, AnimalWedding, Argyris, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter)
  • Ban counterspell of basic land fetch (Mothership, Argyris, Briddums, MoonWraith, wilf, rebrab, fresst00/AnimalWedding, Nyghthunter)
  • Ban counterspell of land fetch for basic land type except for Harrow (AnimalWedding, wilf, rebrab, Nyghthunter, fresst00/MoonWraith)
  • Ban counterspell of card draw (Mothership, Argyris, rebrab/AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban direct damage to players (Racer I., rebrab/Mothership, Argyris, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban direct damage to players greater than 10 per turn (MoonWraith, rebrab/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, fresst00)
  • Ban use of buyback (rebrab/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban use of flashback (/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00)
  • Ban use of buyback in singleton only (Mothership, wilf, rebrab/Argyris, Briddums, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • Ban use of flashback in singleton only (Mothership/Argyris, Briddums, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00)
  • Ban use of alternative win conditions (Racer I., rebrab/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, fresst00)
  • If you create an infinite loop, you must win on your turn or concede. (Argyris, Mothership, rebrab, fresst00/AnimalWedding)
  • If you take more than two turns in a row, you must win on your third turn or concede. (Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, rebrab/fresst00)
  • Do not complain about a card or action unless it was specifically banned in the game description or the game was advertised as gents and the action violated one of the bold rules here (Argyris, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, rebrab, fresst00/)

Specific cards
  • Ban Liliana Vex (Argyris, Mothership, Briddums, AnimalWedding, Racer I., MoonWraith, wilf, fresst00/Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Mindslaver (Argyris, Mothership, Briddums, Racer I., MoonWraith, wilf, fresst00/AnimalWedding)
  • Ban Erayo (Briddums/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Time Stretch (AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Argyris, Nyghthunter/Mothership, fresst00)
  • Ban Walk the Aeons (AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Argyris, Nyghthunter/Mothership, fresst00)
  • Ban Aven Mindcensor (Argyris, Mothership/AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Brine Elemental (Argyris/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Yosei (Argyris/Mothership, Briddums, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Coalition Victory (/Argyris, Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Panglacial Wurm (Argyris/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Arc-Slogger (Argyris/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Trinket Mage (Argyris/Mothership, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Kokusho (Argyris, Mothership, Racer I., wilf, fresst00/Briddums, AnimalWedding, MoonWraith)
  • Ban Teferri (Mothership, Racer I., wilf, Argyris/AnimalWedding, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Kaervek (Argyris, Mothership, Racer I., wilf/Briddums, AnimalWedding, Nyghthunter, fresst00)
  • Ban Beseech the Queen (Argyris, Briddums, MoonWraith, wilf, fresst00/AnimalWedding, Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Seedborn Muse (Racer I., Argyris, fresst00/wilf, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Mirari's Wake (Racer I., Argyris, fresst00/wilf, MoonWraith, Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Personal Tutor (AnimalWedding, Argyris, fresst00/Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Imperial Seal (AnimalWedding, Argyris, fresst00/Nyghthunter)
  • Ban Orim's Chant (Nyghthunter, fresst00, Argyris/)
  • Ban Time Stop (Nyghthunter, Argyris/fresst00)


People who have voted: AnimalWedding, Argyris, Briddums, MoonWraith, Mothership, Nyghthunter, Racer I., rebrab, wilf

This is a work in progress. Comments, questions and suggestions are very helpful.
For:
Ban use of permanently cycling cards - They're just annoying.
Ban discard greater than 2 per player
Ban mana only land destruction
Ban Liliana Vess
Ban Mindslaver
Ban Erayo

Against:
Ban use of permanent theft
Ban destruction of mana only artifacts
Ban destruction of mana only creatures. See Elvish Aberration
Ban counterspell of land fetch
Ban use of buyback in singleton only
Ban use of flashback in singleton only
Ban Kokusho
Ban Kaervek
Ban Yosei

I suggest banning Beseech the Queen.

I am against counterspelling mana fetch since I hate Sylvan Scrying for Urborg, followed up by Last Stand FTW.

I suggest banning counterspells against basic land only land fetch.
Prismatic, in my opinion, is about seeing incredible, clever, or incredibly clever things happen. Banning cards does nothing but limit the number of things that can happen in any given game, and also leaves a lot of stuff unanswerable. Let's take a look at an extremely simple example of how a healthy format can operate and evolve.

One player (P1) wins a bunch of games by attacking with nasty creatures.
The other player (P2) starts running a lot of Wrath of God effects to stop P1's strategy.
P1 starts running creatures with haste and flash like Akroma, Magnivore, Panglacial Wurm and Teferi that are hard to deal with, and also stuff like Genesis.
P2 starts running counters to deal with hard to remove creatures like Akroma or indestructible creatures, and Tormod's Crypt and Cremate to deal with Genesis and Recollect type effects.
P1 starts to run counters of their own, like Pyroblast to deal with the huge number of overpowered blue spells that float around in any given game, split second cards like Krosan Grip to deal with Etched Oracle, Pernicious Deed and Oblivion Stone, Decree of Justice as a mostly uncounterable win condition, Imp's Mischief to handle discard, targetted draw, and counters, etc.
P2 responds by going aggro.

...and so on. And that's just an extremely dumbed down version of what happens out there in Magic. If you look at the average 2hg Prismatic deck, you'll see a healthy mix of counters, removal, powerful threats, recurring effects, card draw, direct damage, and uncounterable cards. I had one game (not Prismatic but Commander) where Frenzy277 Mindslaved me and played my Desolation Angel without a kicker. That was an incredible play (something you'd almost never see in any other format), and completely knocked me out of that game, and yet both of those cards are frowned upon by the Gents crew (who obviously can't even come to a consensus among themselves). I think my friend biggysingh13 put it best when he said, "Gents means you can't play cards that win the game." There should be nothing wrong with getting advantages in a game, no matter how large, or preventing your opponent from gaining such advantages.

That said, I have no problem with a lot of the rules that players are usually associated with Gents. I have kept land destruction, mass discard, and extra turns out of my own decks. I just would like to issue a warning that people are always going to be upset when they lose. I knew a fellow Prismatic player (name withheld) who would play anything except land destruction, which I thought was silly. He'd counter, Mindslave and discard to his heart's content, but when I played a Radiate on an entwined Reap and Sow, he even went as far as quitting my clan. This is just an example of how game losses can lead to irrational judgment. There was no logic in his hatred toward LD; the only reason was that he would generally lose to it. Gents, to me, is a culmination of this, and because of that, there will never be a consensus. I can only imagine that people will eventually want cards like Molten Disaster, Decree of Justice, and Seedborn Muse banned, and from there who knows?

You can vote on a list, but people will always have something to complain about. Some folks will cry that the format they love is being mutilated while others insist that banning cards promotes a more fun format for everyone. I'm sure you know my opinion: if a card has an answer (an answer that isn't just 1 card) then why not?

For:
Ban Liliana Vess (I think the reason this was kept in Prismatic was because of its general slowness in the 1v1 format, but we're talking about 2hg here).
Ban mana only destruction.
Ban discard greater than 2 per player per turn.
Ban countering basic land type only fetch except for Harrow (this includes Farseek and Nature's Lore since they can only search for basic land types even though they can grab a dual).
Ban extra turn cards.

Against:
Everything else.

This is what I recommend: keep the Gents format at a bare minimum, then post specific dislikes on your own game description.
Gents are weird sometimes. I remember when one "gentleman" countered my Kodama's Reach, but when I cast entwined Reap and Sow targetting his karoo he quit immediately.
Imho Prismatic Singleton is random enough not to ban anything other than what is already banned in Prismatic. Sure, a deck FOCUSED on LD or mass discard is an extreme and is not much fun to play against, but a few spells which you will only draw once every 5-6 games is not a crime. Just my two cents.

For:
Ban gents.

Against:
Ban anything other than gents.
Gents are weird sometimes. I remember when one "gentleman" countered my Kodama's Reach, but when I cast entwined Reap and Sow targetting his karoo he quit immediately.
Imho Prismatic Singleton is random enough not to ban anything other than what is already banned in Prismatic. Sure, a deck FOCUSED on LD or mass discard is an extreme and is not much fun to play against, but a few spells which you will only draw once every 5-6 games is not a crime. Just my two cents.

For:
Ban gents.

Against:
Ban anything other than gents.

Well, if you don't want to play gents, that is a completely different discussion. I am perfectly willing to play a game that is advertised as ATG and everyone has joined having had the chance to tailor their decks. But, the problem is definining the word "gents." People just use the term and have completely different expectations from each other.

For example, your example. Counterspelling land fetch is in a gray area. Destroying mana only land on the board is clearly not gents in every interpretation I have seen. You thought he acted not gents, he thought he did. You reacted by clearly violating gents, which got him upset. Would be much better if everyone knew what gents means.
Sadly, I doubt you'll ever get a unified vision of 'gents'. Additionally, it will take a lot of work to 'balance' this 'format'. Always backstepping to remove something that becomes a problem because of the removal of something else and so on and so forth.

Good luck though.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Agreed, best of luck for anyone trying this endeavor. I'll also request that people who hate 'gents' rules let these people do their thing with insults or degridation.

To be honest, I don't "get" why these rule are used. I don't "get" why it offends so many people either, though. Some people want to play a vastly different game, so be it.
MTGO SVCL - Ask me for help if you're lost or confused!
Sadly, I doubt you'll ever get a unified vision of 'gents'. Additionally, it will take a lot of work to 'balance' this 'format'. Always backstepping to remove something that becomes a problem because of the removal of something else and so on and so forth.

Good luck though.

I think a lot of people simply do not understand the dynamics of multiplayer games...The rules for emperor gents are pretty explicit, detailed and almost completely agreed upon. Also, people are pretty good at what are already considered the rules of the prismatic gents. It is a very different game in multiplayer than in one on one.

And, as much as I enjoy playing a game of atg, gents is a completely different game. The cards used are different, the game play is different, it is a different game. To denigrate people for one or the other reminds me of people who think Axis and Allies and/or Settlers of Catan are so much better than the other. Completely different games, completely different way of playing, very different target audience.
I'm on the line with AnimalWedding in restricting as few things as possible, to gain more variety during the games. So I suggest a small change in the way the mana cards are handled now.
Some will remember, when I was relatively new to singleton prismatic there was a confusing situation: One opponent destroyed with obvious glee a rakdos signet of my team partner he was depending on, and this opponent was infuriated when a short time later I destroyed one of his dual lands. What was going on ? The functionality of the cards is exactly the same, one card for one additional mana, and some color choice. Still, people treat the cards as if they are completely different in power.
After thinking a while about the issue, I came to the conclusion, it's not he functionality of the printed text that's really important here. Instead it's the mana acceleration that gives the mana artifacts an advantage so huge the players want to have a way to deal with it. Under this premise, the appropriate rule could be easily defined:

0. It's not allowed to destroy mana only lands.

1. It's allowed to destroy + counter any cards that provide mana acceleration when they are played. It's not allowed to counter search-for-land only cards. So allowed to counter/destroy: Nature's Lore or Harrow, Birds Of Paradise, Signets and so on, but Safewright Quest would be safe on the other hand.

to extend the freedom of play and restrict as few as possible, I would suggest even a second rule:
2. Rule 0 applies for spot removal only when you have the same amount or more mana than target opponent but always for mass destruction cards like desolation angel or armageddon.


I see no reason why you should sit there mana screwed at the table and be restricted to slow down your opponent when he already has an advantage.

If something's not clear in the above text, just tell me, and I'll try to explain. I'm no native english speaker.
Just for future reference, it would be preferable if everyone could either:

1) Say which rule they would like to vote for or against. A number would be great.

2) Propose a new rule, with its exceptions.
Deck Construction
1
2 Could care less as I only play singleton
3 Could care less as I only play singleton
4
5 Against
6 Against
7 Against
8 Against
9 Against
10 Against
11 Against

Game Play
1 Against
2 Against
3 Against
4 Against
5 For
6 For
7 Against
8 Against
9 Against (Creatures can be used for other things like ninjitsu even if they are mana only)
10 For
11 Against
12 For
13 Against
14 Against
15 Against
16 For
17 Against
18 Against
19 Against
20 Against
21 Against
22
23 For
24 For

Specific Cards
1 For
2 For
3 Against
4 For
5 For
6 Against
7 Against
8 Against
9 Against
10 Against
11 Against
12 Against
13 Against
14 Against
15
16 For
17 Against
18 Against
Since everyone is putting their 2 penneth in I might as well too.

I was just saying to someone online that the reason I play gents rules games is that you get a chance to play. I mainly play 2HG singleton prismatic and, as most of you will know, playing 2hg in any format takes a long time online. This is compounded by frequent DC's, people strategising etc. So when someone comes along and prevents you from playing and your time is made of trying to play but getting everything countered or just clicking f6 on your turn as you have no cards in hand because someone made you discard them all then that ceases to be any sort of enjoyment. I know these things are part of the game and I have no problem, for the most part, with ppl who play like that but I do not wish to play against those sorts of deck.

There are a lot of really great players on MTGO and it's a real shame that so many of them are so divided on this subject but it does need to be sorted. I don't think a single person will be 100% happy with what comes out of it but we need some clarity in what does and does not constitute gents. It's not so much about who wins but having a set of rules everyone can play to even if they don't agree with all of them.

I'll step down off the soapbox now.

As a side note, Argyris you've incorrectly added me to the list for banning Seedborn Muse and Mirari's Wake. I guess we must have crossed wires there somewhere.

As for my thoughts:

I agree with max 2 discard but I would also ban cards that accumulate discard such as Honden of Night's Reach and Blazing Specter. If someone wants to make you discard a card(or 2) a turn they should be using a spell per turn themselves.

I agree with limiting counters. As I understand it we have recently been playing with a max of 10 rule so I'm slightly surprised to see 20 on this list. I would propose 10 max personally.

I would ban putting cards from players' decks into play but not from graveyard.

Ban mana only LD.

Ban buyback in Singleton.

Ban counter of land search in any form.

I expect Liliana Vess and Beseech the Queen will be banned by WotC any time soon but I will add my vote to ban them now.

I guess I don't need to say it but I have an inkling Mindslaver might be just a little against the spirit of gents. Banned.

I would ban Kokusho. Even ppl who play him say they feel dirty winning that way.

I've not seen Teferi too much but I can imagine how annoying he is so I vote he gets banned.

I would give up all the above as long as one card got banned. No prizes for guessing it's Kaervek the Merciless. It's ruined more games than any other single card I've seen.

Thanks for listening

wilf
As a side note, Animal you've incorrectly added me to the list for banning Seedborn Muse and Mirari's Wake. I guess we must have crossed wires there somewhere.

Just to clarify, this list is maintained by Argyris, not me.

As for some of your other points, why ban buyback (or, to be more specific Reiterate and Spell Burst. I don't see Whispers of the Muse breaking the format anytime soon; not that the others do)? I can agree that mass discard can pretty much seal games in singleton formats where you have such a low chance of drawing recovery, but buyback, while potent, is just really not in the same league. Basically at this point I wonder whether people just want to ban cards simply because they can be recurred. Would you support banning Genesis, Eternal Witness, or the combination of the two? Is playing Reiterate a few times really going to ruin Prismatic Singleton as we know it? Most people I know would think this is a ridiculous notion, but I have been yelled at by certain people for playing what's apparently "most broken red card in the game."

On tutoring, I would love to see Wizards take some action because it would mean that they still care about the format, but with the current state of the format, I'd imagine we'd be getting Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor untouched for Pris, which is a little unsettling. I'll be honest; I know I would play as many tutors in my deck as possible, but I can see how they detract from the spirit of Prismatic.
Sorry about that, I did actually mean to type Argyris.

As you know a lot of prism games run to the point where players have a lot of mana at their disposal. This is where allowing buyback becomes a problem. When an opponent Reiterates your Allied Strategies twice it's not especially fun. Evangalize + buyback is especially annoying. There is a fundamental difference between buyback and cards like Genesis and Eternal Witness. Opponents have a whole turn to deal with Genesis before it becomes a problem and EW is a one-shot. Sure people can recur EW, I've done it myself a few times, but that's down to the draw you get. With buyback you have to deal with the card there and then. No other option other than to allow it to resolve. We could get into a circular argument here about how this means you should run counters but I would prefer not to follow that path if possible. Anyway, long story short I think buyback cards should be allowed in decks just don't allow the buyback costs to be played. As for Reiterate being the brokenest Red card in Magic - somone's not thinking clearly.

While we're on the matter we are talking shades of opinion here. I know you presented an argument for your case but I don't happen to agree with all your points nor expect you to agree with all of mine. As I stated in my original post, no-one is going to be 100% happy with the list.

The tutor situation is a problem. That beseech the queen hasn't had the boot yet is a bit worrying. As you say Med2 is going to exacerbate the problem. Maybe we should vote for pre-emptively banning the Med2 cards along with BtQ.

wilf
As a side note, Argyris you've incorrectly added me to the list for banning Seedborn Muse and Mirari's Wake. I guess we must have crossed wires there somewhere.

The names after the slash are those who are against something.
I think we should stick to the relatively well established rules for Prismatic Singleton Gents (as noted here: http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html , by a consensus of those playing at the time, and many who still play). I think it is not generally a good idea to go after specific cards, or effects other than the relatively simple list we have. I am pretty much on the train of, No Land destruction that targets lands only, no discard (defined as mass) that is in excess of 2/effect/turn, and no direct damage in excess of 10 in one shot.

With land destruction, I realize that there are cards that can be used to "enhance" lands, such as overgrowth, genjus, etc. I am all for using them, if you want to, but I think that the moment I am attacked by a land, then the person who attacked with said land, has opened that land as a target. Be it the case of genjus, or some other way to make lands into man-lands. My general rule of thought is, if the land has a special ability, it opens itself up as a target, by definition of no longer being a "mana only" land. While I myself do not typically advocate or practice the destruction of lands when the abilities are not being used, have not been used, or when it is more important to the player to use those lands for mana (in the case of land screw), I would not bash people who did, because, sunhome on Akroma is suddenly 12 damage with haste, flying, pro Red, pro Black, and trample. Also of note with lands, I agree, that countering most fetch is not generally a good practice, but there are some cases when it may be necessary (as brid said, scrying for urborg into last stand). But then, that would most likely go against what I practice and advocate, in that no more than 10 direct damage from a single source, in a single turn (I know, this opens up gray areas with cards like multiples in kokusho, but I feel the very nature of prismatic singleton keeps most of that in check). Of note, I think it's bad form to counter things that go fetching basic lands, esp things like harrow.

On to discard. I'm pretty much a strong advocate of the no discard in excess of 2/turn/effect. That should be pretty self explanatory. Getting hit with gerrard's verdict is a pain, but it's not an insurmountable advantage, as where getting hit with Myojin of Night's Reach, effectively ends the game, while making the end of the game very boring.

I got into a discussion with Argyis earlier about the use (by one of our opponents) of Beseech the Queen. If we start going after tutor effects, I think it should be a blanket ban, including land search. As long as I've been playing Pris Gents, in all its forms (about a year and a half now) we have NEVER gone after specific cards. If you had a problem with transmute, you complained to wizards, and they listened to the tune of banning all transmute cards. I think it is a mistake to go after specific cards for "power" reasons. That was NEVER the intent of Gents rules. Gents was started to create a fun environment because a lot of people were tired of having lands destroyed en masse, discarding their ENTIRE hand, and thus making the game less interesting for all sides involved. To come down to it, Cards such as Beseech, can and should be reacted to. You Beseech, I counter. If I can't counter, then I deal with what you got. If I can't do that, then chances are I'm already losing. I've read several people saying they have a problem with Liliana, Beseech, and Kaervek. I don't like Kaervek any more than most people, but the truth of the matter is, he's a CREATURE. Terminate, STP, Exclude, any bounce, WoG, Damnation, Sudden Death, and any other number of cards that you most likely have in your library kill him quickly and efficiently. All of those I just named (and MANY I haven't) will result in damage to you or your creatures that amounts to Prophetic Bolt to the dome. So he's a pain in the ass, sure, but so is Akroma. Do we ban her too? How about abusing /angel of Despair with things like Momentary Blink, Otherworldly Journey, or Crystal Shard? Should we ban her too? Maybe we should go after Insurrection, because it's can be a game winner on its own. Or maybe Godo. How about Mirari's Wake? Seedborn Muse? Mana Reflection? Or perhaps Myojin of Seeing Winds, because drawing 15 cards in one shot typically means you just lost. All of the cards I just named, if left unchecked, are game winners. But we should all have PLENTY of answers to ANY of them in our decks! Hell, a Dimir Cutpurse or Phyrexian Arena can create an "unfair" advantage. If you can't get rid of them promptly.

If we start going after specific cards, then it opens up more and more and more debate. Prismatic Gents, or Prismatic Singleton Gents was NEVER about curbing POWER. It's one of the ONLY places you can actually play Savage Beating, or Insurrection or any of 1000s of other cards, simply because they might be a little overcosted to live in the constructed scene. The rules that have been more or less agreed on are again, in this link, and were decided upon more than a year ago.

http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html

We left it at that in order to have a set of rules that were easily understood, and easy to communicate. Start going after specific "overpowered" cards, and where does it stop? There are a lot of annoying cards out there, but being ready to deal with them is all in the spirit of this format that I love so much, and keeps me playing magic. If you have a problem with power, play pauper. But don't go preaching to people (as argyis did to 1234qwert earlier) that certain cards aren't allowed based on a majority of people who play gents. Especially when not everyone who has been playing gents for as long as I have (dxkane, 1234QWERT, ChrisUKBow, thePiman, Schmackie, Beej, VSPT, S1N Dark Demise, Gamepro_man2004, EverLitOMs, and MANY others (17 members of my clan ALONE - Zingleton PriZmatic Gents) haven't even looked at this thread, nor voted on ANY of the proposed ideas.

If they don't want to vote, then it's most likely because we've all had this conversation about "what defines gents" about 100 times over now. I'm planning on playing Beseech the Queen, Liliana, and all the gy recursion I can from now until WIZARDS bans it. If you guys want to ban certain cards from your kitchen tables, then so be it. But don't take the name we created, assume responsibility for the changing of it, and then go telling people who have been playing gents by the established rules that certain cards aren't kosher anymore without even getting input from those of us who have been playing by the established rules for over a year because a couple of people said so. And don't go telling me that the people who agreed on these rules aren't relevant at all because some of them may not play anymore. These were the groundwork rules we made because we had this argument a LOT, and decided to make it all as simplistic as possible, so it could be easy to understand, and pass along. You can sum up the rules, as I abide by them, in a sentence.

We banned EFFECTS, not CARDS. Effects that made the game less interesting, not cards that make the game more dynamic. Consider this my "vote". You should be able to get everything you need out of it for "your rules" via this website (in case you missed it the first 2 times):

http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html
Some will remember, when I was relatively new to singleton prismatic there was a confusing situation: One opponent destroyed with obvious glee a rakdos signet of my team partner he was depending on, and this opponent was infuriated when a short time later I destroyed one of his dual lands. What was going on ? The functionality of the cards is exactly the same, one card for one additional mana, and some color choice. Still, people treat the cards as if they are completely different in power.

I take this a bit differently. A land is a land is a land is a land. It's not about acceleration. I don't play signets or other artifact mana because that just adds to the hurt when someone sweeps the board with things like Austere Command, Akroma's Vengeance, Pernicious Deed, etc. While I'm not a fan of going after things that are mana only, the rule HAS ALWAYS BEEN, no destroying LANDS. Signets are artifacts, and I'm not going to hesitate if you just dropped godo or akroma or some other monstrosity, or some high power enchant (mirari's wake, etc), and my ONLY way to deal with it is Oblivion Stone. You take chances playing things like artifacts for acceleration, or things like overgrowth, because, while the land itself is illegal, artifacts and enchantments are not, and nor should they be.

Now if he was something of an a$$ for going after an artifact that did him no direct harm, then so be it, but the counter to that is, suppose you play Mind's Desire right after he killed the artifact. Well, he'll feel pretty stupid watching you draw cards off the Mind's Desire after he just wasted his artifact kill on an insignificant signet.
I think we should stick to the relatively well established rules for Prismatic Singleton Gents (as noted here: http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html , by a consensus of those playing at the time, and many who still play). I think it is not generally a good idea to go after specific cards, or effects other than the relatively simple list we have. I am pretty much on the train of, No Land destruction that targets lands only, no discard (defined as mass) that is in excess of 2/effect/turn, and no direct damage in excess of 10 in one shot.

With land destruction, I realize that there are cards that can be used to "enhance" lands, such as overgrowth, genjus, etc. I am all for using them, if you want to, but I think that the moment I am attacked by a land, then the person who attacked with said land, has opened that land as a target. Be it the case of genjus, or some other way to make lands into man-lands. My general rule of thought is, if the land has a special ability, it opens itself up as a target, by definition of no longer being a "mana only" land. While I myself do not typically advocate or practice the destruction of lands when the abilities are not being used, have not been used, or when it is more important to the player to use those lands for mana (in the case of land screw), I would not bash people who did, because, sunhome on Akroma is suddenly 12 damage with haste, flying, pro Red, pro Black, and trample. Also of note with lands, I agree, that countering most fetch is not generally a good practice, but there are some cases when it may be necessary (as brid said, scrying for urborg into last stand). But then, that would most likely go against what I practice and advocate, in that no more than 10 direct damage from a single source, in a single turn (I know, this opens up gray areas with cards like multiples in kokusho, but I feel the very nature of prismatic singleton keeps most of that in check). Of note, I think it's bad form to counter things that go fetching basic lands, esp things like harrow.

On to discard. I'm pretty much a strong advocate of the no discard in excess of 2/turn/effect. That should be pretty self explanatory. Getting hit with gerrard's verdict is a pain, but it's not an insurmountable advantage, as where getting hit with Myojin of Night's Reach, effectively ends the game, while making the end of the game very boring.

I got into a discussion with Argyis earlier about the use (by one of our opponents) of Beseech the Queen. If we start going after tutor effects, I think it should be a blanket ban, including land search. As long as I've been playing Pris Gents, in all its forms (about a year and a half now) we have NEVER gone after specific cards. If you had a problem with transmute, you complained to wizards, and they listened to the tune of banning all transmute cards. I think it is a mistake to go after specific cards for "power" reasons. That was NEVER the intent of Gents rules. Gents was started to create a fun environment because a lot of people were tired of having lands destroyed en masse, discarding their ENTIRE hand, and thus making the game less interesting for all sides involved. To come down to it, Cards such as Beseech, can and should be reacted to. You Beseech, I counter. If I can't counter, then I deal with what you got. If I can't do that, then chances are I'm already losing. I've read several people saying they have a problem with Liliana, Beseech, and Kaervek. I don't like Kaervek any more than most people, but the truth of the matter is, he's a CREATURE. Terminate, STP, Exclude, any bounce, WoG, Damnation, Sudden Death, and any other number of cards that you most likely have in your library kill him quickly and efficiently. All of those I just named (and MANY I haven't) will result in damage to you or your creatures that amounts to Prophetic Bolt to the dome. So he's a pain in the ass, sure, but so is Akroma. Do we ban her too? How about abusing /angel of Despair with things like Momentary Blink, Otherworldly Journey, or Crystal Shard? Should we ban her too? Maybe we should go after Insurrection, because it's can be a game winner on its own. Or maybe Godo. How about Mirari's Wake? Seedborn Muse? Mana Reflection? Or perhaps Myojin of Seeing Winds, because drawing 15 cards in one shot typically means you just lost. All of the cards I just named, if left unchecked, are game winners. But we should all have PLENTY of answers to ANY of them in our decks! Hell, a Dimir Cutpurse or Phyrexian Arena can create an "unfair" advantage. If you can't get rid of them promptly.

If we start going after specific cards, then it opens up more and more and more debate. Prismatic Gents, or Prismatic Singleton Gents was NEVER about curbing POWER. It's one of the ONLY places you can actually play Savage Beating, or Insurrection or any of 1000s of other cards, simply because they might be a little overcosted to live in the constructed scene. The rules that have been more or less agreed on are again, in this link, and were decided upon more than a year ago.

http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html

We left it at that in order to have a set of rules that were easily understood, and easy to communicate. Start going after specific "overpowered" cards, and where does it stop? There are a lot of annoying cards out there, but being ready to deal with them is all in the spirit of this format that I love so much, and keeps me playing magic. If you have a problem with power, play pauper. But don't go preaching to people (as argyis did to 1234qwert earlier) that certain cards aren't allowed based on a majority of people who play gents. Especially when not everyone who has been playing gents for as long as I have (dxkane, 1234QWERT, ChrisUKBow, thePiman, Schmackie, Beej, VSPT, S1N Dark Demise, Gamepro_man2004, EverLitOMs, and MANY others (17 members of my clan ALONE - Zingleton PriZmatic Gents) haven't even looked at this thread, nor voted on ANY of the proposed ideas.

If they don't want to vote, then it's most likely because we've all had this conversation about "what defines gents" about 100 times over now. I'm planning on playing Beseech the Queen, Liliana, and all the gy recursion I can from now until WIZARDS bans it. If you guys want to ban certain cards from your kitchen tables, then so be it. But don't take the name we created, assume responsibility for the changing of it, and then go telling people who have been playing gents by the established rules that certain cards aren't kosher anymore without even getting input from those of us who have been playing by the established rules for over a year because a couple of people said so. And don't go telling me that the people who agreed on these rules aren't relevant at all because some of them may not play anymore. These were the groundwork rules we made because we had this argument a LOT, and decided to make it all as simplistic as possible, so it could be easy to understand, and pass along. You can sum up the rules, as I abide by them, in a sentence.

We banned EFFECTS, not CARDS. Effects that made the game less interesting, not cards that make the game more dynamic. Consider this my "vote". You should be able to get everything you need out of it for "your rules" via this website (in case you missed it the first 2 times):

http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html

I second this whole post! The more you try to "balance" things in this format the more you open it up to be more and more "balanced" by your standards. If you have all these people willing to play by "your" rules then play a game with them, but as nyghtrunner said SOOOOO many LONG time players don't know nor care of this thread (heck I wouldn't be here if nyghtrunner didn't tell me about it and didn't feel so strongly that you are going way overboard here) so don't jus post this thread and have 5 people agree/disagree then make it the new standard for gents rules because you and the buddies you play with agree on that. There are way too many people who will never come here or even care to read all those changes.
I think we should stick to the relatively well established rules for Prismatic Singleton Gents (as noted here: http://www.rubicondev.com/gents.html , by a consensus of those playing at the time, and many who still play).

Obviously, the rules aren't established enough, or we wouldn't be fighting over them every single game.

We left it at that in order to have a set of rules that were easily understood, and easy to communicate. Start going after specific "overpowered" cards,

Except that they were not easy to understand or to communicate.

pauper. But don't go preaching to people (as argyis did to 1234qwert earlier) that certain cards aren't allowed based on a majority of people who play gents. Especially when not everyone who has been playing gents for as long

First, I did not preach and I find your characterization insulting, when I showed you clearly that I did not say what you thought I said and did not say what you are saying now I said. Either quote me correctly, or don't quote me. Second, you are more preachy than anyone else. Pot calling the kettle black?


as I have (dxkane, 1234QWERT, ChrisUKBow, thePiman, Schmackie, Beej, VSPT, S1N Dark Demise, Gamepro_man2004, EverLitOMs, and MANY others (17 members of my clan ALONE - Zingleton PriZmatic Gents) haven't even looked at this thread, nor voted on ANY of the proposed ideas.

People who don't play don't matter. I could also name people who don't play. Why should anyone care what they think?

aren't relevant at all because some of them may not play anymore. These were the groundwork rules we made because we had this argument a LOT, and decided to make it all as simplistic as possible, so it could be easy to understand, and pass along. You can sum up the rules, as I abide by them, in a sentence.

Except that you couldn't yourself. And neither can anyone else. Don't tell me your rules solved everything when it is obvious they have solved nothing. I don't have the time to go through the rules and update them now, but I will before tomorrow.

As for s1n, I have never played with him, never seen him in a prismatic game. When I do, I will count his votes.

Last, but not least, this is the rules that me and my friends want to play. If you don't like them, you don't have to play with us.
As for s1n, I have never played with him, never seen him in a prismatic game. When I do, I will count his votes.

Last, but not least, this is the rules that me and my friends want to play. If you don't like them, you don't have to play with us.

I have played with you several times and you can ask all the people who play if I haven't played pris singleton for almost a year on v2, but with v3 and all the split card bugs and deck not being valid bugs etc whats the point to play? When v3 makes playing actually fun/possible again you'll see me. ( I even play a random 1 on 1 pris game here and there now) But not like i care if you count my votes anyway honestly cause i play no mass discard/mana ony LD thats it thats all (pretty simple no?), so when i play liliana or w/e sure hope you don't say anything :D . I mean seriously banning certain cards u have listed above is going way out there and i notice only your name on most of them lol...if you can't awnser teferi or seedborn muse you need to remake your deck not ban them(and trinket mage, panglacial wurm i mean c'mon ). I could go on but all in all i'll play what i want when i want if certain people who are in this thread disagree oh well.

Last but not least if these are you and your friends rules then if you happen to be in a game without one of your friends don't say that these are the new gents rules, say they are YOUR TABLE rules.
Obviously, the rules aren't established enough, or we wouldn't be fighting over them every single game.

I haven't had a fight over any of the rules that recently, so to say that is misleading and false. That is to say, I hadn't had a fight over any of the rules, until this thread came into being, and you began telling people I have known for quite some time that the cards in their deck are banned because of a vote by 7 people on a random thread on Gleemax.

Except that they were not easy to understand or to communicate.

Did you even look at the page I linked to? If so, and you find them difficult to understand, then I shall paraphrase.

Prismatic Singleton Gents rules means, that there will be no destruction of lands that produce mana only, there shall be no discard effects greater than 2 per player, per effect, per turn, there shall be no direct damage exceeding 10 to a single player in a single turn, and finally, there shall be no turn manipulation.

Now the only ones I myself care that much about are the first 3, but I don't play any card that could be construed as time manipulation, so my deck still abides by those rules. Those are the rules we set, and to me they seem pretty straightforward. If you have questions about specific instances, such as countering harrow, or playing Mindslaver, those also are covered in the link i provided. Countering Harrow, or playing Mindslaver are covered in the blanket rules because of the effect of the card, not by banning the card or the activity for the specific card. Mindslaver, in effect, means you just shorted an opponent their turn, and is considered manipulation. Countering Harrow is construed as land destruction do to the additional casting cost of Harrow itself. Does this make sense to you?

First, I did not preach and I find your characterization insulting, when I showed you clearly that I did not say what you thought I said and did not say what you are saying now I said. Either quote me correctly, or don't quote me. Second, you are more preachy than anyone else. Pot calling the kettle black?

Neither my pots, nor my kettle are, in fact, black, but that is a different discussion. And to me, telling someone that a card is banned because of this vote, comes across as preaching. Wilf, and almost everyone else I have talked to have said that a vote by 7 players hardly counts as a final vote. And to say that it does, in my opinion, is ridiculous. There are far more than 7 players actively playing Prismatic Singleton with "gents" rules.


People who don't play don't matter. I could also name people who don't play. Why should anyone care what they think?

Funny you should say that, when all but some of the 17 members of my clan I listed are active players. I haven't actually sat down at a table with Mothership in over a month. So by your logic, her vote should not count for me. The fact that you may not have seen them play recently, or been in a game with them, does by no means count as them not actively playing. It's not my fault you aren't on when they are, nor that they have not seen this thread.


Except that you couldn't yourself. And neither can anyone else. Don't tell me your rules solved everything when it is obvious they have solved nothing. I don't have the time to go through the rules and update them now, but I will before tomorrow.

Prismatic Singleton Gents rules means, that there will be no destruction of lands that produce mana only, there shall be no discard effects greater than 2 per player, per effect, per turn, there shall be no direct damage exceeding 10 to a single player in a single turn, and finally, there shall be no turn manipulation.

That's 1 sentence. It covers all that you need to know to start. It tells what is not allowed. It is concise. It is to the point. It's pretty easy to communicate. Or do you not understand it? To say they solved nothing... Are you that naive? How long have these games been firing in the multiplayer room? In general, do the people you play with abide by them? I know I do. I know that almost everyone I know does. If something new comes up, then you argue based on the effect as to these rules. You don't say, "that's banned because it's too powerful" (I'm not quoting you with that, by the way). To me, it's a lot easier to say what I just said than to say, "Walk the Aeons and Time Stretch are banned, but Beacon of Tomorrows is not because we haven't voted on that card yet because no on remembered that it has the same effect...") That allows for so many loopholes you could drive a dumptruck through them.



As for s1n, I have never played with him, never seen him in a prismatic game. When I do, I will count his votes.

S1N has been playing this format for well over a year. If he doesn't play it much, that's not my fault, but who are you to say his vote shouldn't count because you haven't seen him play? Ask Mothership, Wilf, Moonwraith. Briddums, or an of the others you have as "counted" votes if they know who he is or if he plays the format. Same goes for VSPT, 1234QWERT, and just about everyone else I named. Again, this sounds more like kitchen table magic to me. If you and your friends want to play games with these rules you 7 have voted on, then be my guest. But don't advertise your tables as gents, and then tell people cards they have are banned because they may never have played with you or seen this thread. They may well have been playing with the gents rules that were generally agreed upon long before you came along.


Last, but not least, this is the rules that me and my friends want to play. If you don't like them, you don't have to play with us.

Then don't advertise your table as gents. If it's something you and your friends agreed on when you guys sit down, that's fine by me. I won't try to stop you. But you are going to get more problems with people playing cards on your banned list if you advertise a game as something others have played for a year or more, but aren't up to snuff on you and your friends rules.
Nyght, I'm going to plagiarize your description for part of the MTG:O Deck Critiques FAQ.
I may borrow your link too. ;)

Guess what? Chicken butt.

Nyghtrunner, while I agree with you for the most part, I can't say that those rules that you linked me to, which I think were documented by someone from my clan pre-v3, are so cut and dry.

Let me give you a few examples that could be interpreted a few ways. Head Games can potentially be a Wit's End, but it technically doesn't discard a player's hand. In fact, you'd probably end up with a hand full of lands, but lands are still cards. Barbed Shocker discards entire hands but also replenishes it at the same time. Technically those cards have been discarded and therefore breaks the gents rule. Void, too, is played by a number of people. It can potentially discard entire hands or nothing, and let's not forget that many people play it as a strong board wipe spell. And what about Brine Elemental and Yosei. It doesn't actually give me additional turns since my opponents can still draw and play spells (especially a topdecked Force of Will or Pact), but it could potentially give you a similar advantage. Should Mana Skimmer be considered LD? What about playing a Vesuva on your opponent's Academy Ruins when they only have a few lands available to them in the first place? Also, some people have argued that Hymn to Tourach feels like more than just a discard 2 spell since they don't get to choose. What of Grand Arbiter Augustin IV's effect? Decimate when there are no utility lands on the board to hit? Persecute? Warp World? The Protean Hulk combo with that 1/1 that mills when it comes into play, therefore bypassing the 11 damage rule? I'd say resolving the combo in that situation is a lot scarier than a Myojin of Night's Reach since losing the game is generally the worst thing that can happen. Cards like Kaervek can deal way more than 10 damage in a single turn, and it can be justified by saying it's a creature, but Ghitu Fire for 12 can't be justified because it's counterable? All of the examples I listed above, except maybe 1 or 2, have been relevant to me and the players I've played against since version 3's inception.

I'm not trying to bash or offend anyone in this post (and certainly not you Nyghtrunner since I believe we basically share the same philosophies concerning Gents). I just think that the rules, like many people have said, are too open to interpretation. What I don't buy about Gents is that many times people seem to think it's basically means that you can only play with "nice cards." I don't play Magic to play with nice cards, and honestly doing so is just defeating the purpose of the game. Attacking with Glory Seekers every turn is not very fun to me. If you give me a set of rules, I will try to find every way to bend those rules without actually breaking them. At the same time, there are some who will find in those same rules every possible way to interpret them without actually being directly supported by the text. For the record, games that I have been posting lately have been labelled "Gents," but only because Anything Goes games never seem to start. The multiplayer Prismatic population currently online seems to universally accept Gents as the default format, which is why I care about this thread. I can tell you that I will be stuffing my deck with tutors as long as they're legal. I will be Plagiarizing people who Carefully Consider themselves at instant speed. I will be Panoptically Mirroring my Primal Command on your Miren, the Moaning Well. Ban me if you'd like, but don't tell me that I'm not playing by Gents rules when they're so nebulous.

P.S. When I say I care about this thread, I'm not saying we should list every single card to be voted on; I just think that it's important to consider situations beyond the obvious "Ana Battlemage with the first kicker is banned."
Man this thread has gotten nasty even without gents bashing!
After you're finished defining "gents", can you work on defining "casual"?
After you're finished defining "gents", can you work on defining "casual"?

Thank you for the really useful contribution.
Hmmm.... been away for a while and only noticed this tonight. Very happy to see some debate on this, and will be happy to make further comment when I have had some time to digest all that has been written before.

I know Chris is on holiday at moment, and not sure when he’s back...but sure he will want to comment when he does.

Personally, I become a little jaded with the format recently due to all the arguing. I am not claiming to be a saint, but I have never gone outa my way to play cards that I know will hack peeps off.

In the last 2 years the only format I have played is pris gents singleton, before that for 2 years I played pris gents as well...back in my wild days. It always used to be that this format had the best friendly players, and a good long battle. In that time, I have made comebacks from 40:1 down (and worse) to win after 4 hours, and had the same happen against me. I have played borderline gents with Brett as regular partner, and normal gents with Chris as always. I’m sure i must have crashed the server for putting up 3hg pris gents singleton then playing for over five hours. I have my favourite opponents....who I won't name, because I wouldn't want them to know the pleasure their screams give me (lets just say...mum’s the word;).

Over this time I have always removed a card if people I cared for, and cared to play against, gave me a good reason to. It is, however, one thing to have something explained and rationalised and another to be hurled a lot of abuse followed by a blocking, for playing in a manner that has always been the accepted way.

I will be so happy if this gent rules issue can be solved. I won’t give magic online much more time if not. This format should be the pinnacle of all the formats in magic. I for one will welcome some hard and fast rules that can be pointed at whenever someone steps over the line, especially if they are few and easily understood.

Anyway, it’s getting late, so I will have a think and come back with views/votes etc in a couple of days.

(And please ban all non-foils... I have to take a shower when I clone a non-foil, I feel so dirty
When you Clone something now, if the Clone itself is foil, the final creature will appear as a foil (resulting in white-bordered foils occasionally).
My Votes - I usually only play Prismatic Singleton Gents, so I use NA when a question does not apply.

Deck Construction:
1 n
2 NA
3 NA
4 y
5 n
6 n
7 n
8 n
9 n
8 n
9 n
10 n
11 n
12 n
13 y

Game Play:
1 n
2 n
3 y
4 n
5 y
6 y
7 y
8 y
9 n
10 n
11 y
12 y
13 y
14 y
15 n
16 n
17 n
18 n
19 n
20 n
21 n
22 n
23 y
24 n
25 y

Specific Cards:
1 y
2 y
3 n
4 n
5 n
6 n
7 n
8 n
9 n
10 n
11 n
12 n
13 y
14 n
15 n
16 y
17 y
18 y
19 y
20 y
21 y
22 n


Gents is in the same definition structure as Utopia.