New Class - Blue Mage!

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THE BLUE MAGE
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IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ue_gallery/49907.jpg)
As the intense battle rages on, the party all seeks cover behind the many support pillars in the citadel. "You cannot hide from me forever!" cackles the evil mage as he lobs yet another blast of the eerily unfamiliar spell.

"What can we do?!" the cleric hollers, "That spell is cutting through all of our defenses!"

Suddenly, the strange spellcaster, all clad in robes of purest Azure, stands with an odd smirk on his face. "What WE need is a spell like his!" He steps quietly from behind his pillar, brandishing a confident grimace.

"Fool!" the evil mage shouts as the blue hero is struck squarely in the chest with yet another mystery blast and knocked bleeding to the floor.

"You MORON!" the fighter bellows. "What we need is a spell like his, not a dead mage!" The blue one only laughs through his bloodied lips.

"What?" the rogue says, "Can you cast a spell that can save us?"

With a silent smile, and a clenched fist, the Blue robed mage mutters, "I can now..."


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Blue Mages have the following game statistics.

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills
The Blue Mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier)
[color=blue]THE BLUE MAGE
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
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Q: Which happens first: learning the spell or the effects of the spell?
A: The two happen simultaneously. No benefits gained from learning the spell on the effects of the spell (such as the bonus to your wave from Been There, Done That) apply to the casting of the spell from which you learned it, and no benefits gained from the effects of the spell (such as the increase to Intelligence from Fox’s cunning) apply to learning the spell.

Q: Can I learn spells of any level, or only of levels I can cast?
A: Any level, as long as you can make the Spellcraft check and have enough spells levels learned per day remaining. You still can’t cast it, though (other than through Turquoise Efficiency).

Q: Can I learn divine spells, such as cure light wounds?
A: You can learn any spell as long as you experience it somehow (or have Azure Awareness and/or Improved Azure Awareness, depending on the spell) and can make the Spellcraft check. You still cast all your spells as arcane spells though.

Q: From what source do I cast these divine spells, and do I gain alignment restrictions?
A: You cast these spells as arcane spells (in other words, they emanate from the same source as your other spells: your personal power). You do not gain alignment restrictions.

Q: What happens if I learn a spell that has a metamagic applied to it?
A: You learn every spell at its unmodified level without any metamagic feats applied. You learn a maximized, extended, cold-subbed fireball as the 3rd level spell fireball without any alterations.

Q: How do I find out what level a spell-like ability is?
A: There a number of ways you could do this. The first option is to check the spell. If the spell appears on only one list (such as magic missile), then simple use that level. If multiple class lists are mentioned (and they are not all the same level of spell), then it becomes more complicated. If the spell-like ability offers a save, it will be listed, along with the name of the ability that modifies it. Subtract this ability modifier and an additional 10 from the save DC and number remaining is the level of the spell. If the spell-like ability doesn’t offer a save (or, for whatever reason, doe not list one), then simply treat the spell-like ability as a spell cast by the highest level list (so if a spell is on the Bard, Cleric, and Druid lists as levels 2, 3, and 4 respectively, treat the spell-like ability as a fourth level spell).

Q: But what if the spell is on multiple class lists and I learn it from a spellcaster?
A: In that case, you learn it at the level the caster casts it. Example: a Blue Mage who learns irresistible dance would learn it as a 6th level spell if it was cast by a Bard, but as an 8th level spell if cast by a Sorcerer or Wizard.

Q: If I learn a spell of a level above that which I can cast and I find a scroll or wand containing the spell, do I still have to make a caster level check to cast it?
A: Magic items such as wand use the spell trigger method and merely require the spell to be on your spell list. Example: a 2nd level Blue Mage may freely use a wand of fly if she knows fly. Items such as scrolls use the spell completion method, and are a bit more complicated. Even if you know the spell, you still must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the level of the spell in order to cast the spell off the scroll, you must know the spell, and your caster level must be equal to or greater than that of the scroll. In other words, if you know the spell but cannot cast it, you cannot cast the spell off the scroll. In order to cast the spell off of the scroll, you must either make a Use Magical Device or a caster level check (choose beforehand).


Q: Is it true that the Blue Mage is allowed to make retries of knowledge checks?
A: Yes, but only for the purposes of ascertaining the special abilities or weaknesses of creatures. This is mainly because he is trying to “feel” the creature’s magical ability and isn’t linked as strongly to actual book study.

Q: I am rolling up a Blue Mage above 1st level. How do I decide which spells I know?
A: The question, like starting items when starting above 1st, is up to your DM. Other than your initial 3 spells (2 of which must be 0-level spells and 1 of which must be 1st level), every spell known must be a spell that you can actually learn. However you choose your spells, the DM is allowed to strike whichever spells he or she sees fit from your list of spells known beforehand.

Q: What about those first three?
A: Those first three spells can be whatever spells you like. Example: you could pick ghost sound, silent image, and read magic..

Q: Does the Blue Mage allow multiclassing?
A: Yes it does, just like every other core class. In its very early stages of development, it was forbidden to multiclass due to dipping problems, but the class has since been reworked upwards of 50 times and now allows multiclassing as normal.

Q: What about Psionic Powers? Can I learn those?
A: Like Psionics themselves, this is wholly up to your DM.

Q: Do I lose out on spell levels known if I take levels in Prestige Classes that offer caster levels (such as Archmage)?
A: No. Add any additional Blue Mage caster levels to your Blue Mage level to determine spell levels known (but not caster levels from other classes. A Blue Mage 1/ Sorcerer 15/Archmage 4 casts Blue Mage spells as a level 1 Blue Mage and only knows a number of spell levels equal to 5 + Int modifier. But a Blue Mage 15/Archmage 5 would cast spells as a 20th level Blue Mage and knows a number of spell levels equal to 100(5 times 20) + Int modifier).

Q: What do you mean by “experience” a spell?
A: Generally “experiencing” a spell is what would happen to you if you failed the save, or if the save was only for partial. If something happens to you because of the spell, chances are you experienced it. At 5th level, the Blue Mage can learn spells even if he makes the save to negate, and at 15th level, he can learn spells which do not directly effect him (such as Summon Monster spells), although in both cases he needs to make a higher Spellcraft check than normal to do so.

Q: What about spells that don’t offer a save, but have the possibility of not effecting you either, such as Power Word Kill?
A: If the spell doesn’t offer a save in certain circumstances, treat it as if it had a save for negate and you made it. In other words: If someone tired to cast power word kill on you and you had more than 100 hit points, then the Spellcraft check to learn it would be 51. If you had fewer than 100 hit points (and the spell therefore killed you), then you still make the Spellcraft check but as DC 42 (and if you are ever resurrected, you return knowing the spell).

Q: I’m confused by “Improved Azure Awareness.” What do you mean by “interact with,” exactly?
A: “Interacting with” a passive spell is generally simple: touch it. In the case of a summon monster spell, you must effectively grapple with the monster summoned for one round per spell level. In the case of the wall of force, you must place your hands on the wall and concentrate for the appropriate amount of time.

Q: How exactly can a Blue Mage learn spells with a range of Personal?
A: He can make use of the Use Magical Device skill which was made a class skill for this very reason. Because he has such a small class list, Use Magical Device was added to ensure that he could use scrolls, wands, and other magic items occasionally.

Q: If I have SR and block the spell because of that, can I try to learn it?
A: No. Spell Resistance wholly blocks the spell and prevents you from learning it, although you can usually voluntarily allow your Spell Resistance to fail and let the spell though.

Q: If I am hit by a spell such as wish or miracle that was used to duplicate a spell, what Spellcraft check do I use, and which spell do I learn?
A: In this case, you learn the root spell and use its level to determine the Spellcraft check. Example: if Gerald the Wizard casts wish to duplicate magic missile, you must make a Spellcraft check of 42 in order to learn it, and the spell you would learn is wish.

Q: What is this “Elven Starstepper” dealie that Aramek keeps talking about?
A: The Elven Starstepper is a custom race that Aramek created. It has (among other things) diminutive size, flight speed, and Favored Class: Blue Mage.
I like it a lot, I've always been a fan of the blue mage. Having absolutely no control over what you are able to cast though is like picking the sorcerer and letting the DM pick the spells for you.

Perhaps adding a skill that lets the blue mage have an inkling as to what creatures cast which spells. You know, so you can make a few quests around creature hunting; or so you can let your wizard friend know which monsters to "convince" into casting beneficial spells on you.

Great job though!
Originally posted by Jareth
I like it a lot, I've always been a fan of the blue mage. Having absolutely no control over what you are able to cast though is like picking the sorcerer and letting the DM pick the spells for you.

Perhaps adding a skill that lets the blue mage have an inkling as to what creatures cast which spells. You know, so you can make a few quests around creature hunting; or so you can let your wizard friend know which monsters to "convince" into casting beneficial spells on you.

Great job though!

In 3.5, the Knowledge skills allow you to determine what speels monsters can cast and such, I suggest you read the Skills section for indepth detail.

Look Within
Can anyne say Uber-Abuse?

Charm a few sorcerers of lower level, have them attack the blue mage, heal the blue mage with healing rods the blue mage can use, rinse and repeat.
Ooh! Thats a great addition for another bonus!!!

What is the "Knowlege: ???" for knowing what monsters know spells and such?
Originally posted by Look Within My Mind
In 3.5, the Knowledge skills allow you to determine what speels monsters can cast and such, I suggest you read the Skills section for indepth detail.

Look Within

I just looked over the skills section, though I don't have my books with me......just the SRD, and I didn't see it. I know I must just be looking over it. What particular passage would you be referring to?
Well, all I can say I will say with smileys:

:D

OH MY OLIDAMMARA! That is the most frickin' awesome idea I've ever frickin' heard! Awesome!

I'm not quite sure about how to calculate the Percentage Chance. Perhaps you could clarify it w/ a formula or something (like CL of person casting the spell+CHAmod+level+4+5%=X or something. I'm not quite sure how to get this...

Could the Blue Mage use a Scroll (/have his buddy use a scroll) to learn a spell? Or a Wand? Etc? Thanx.

I know a cool Special that *could* be overboard, but still cool: let the Blue Mage kinda "grab" a spell aimed for his buddies and shunt int at himself. Like: "DM: Enemy Sorcerer casts a ray. BM: I try a Spellcraft check*roll8 20. DM: It's a Scorching ray. BM: I grab it and pull it into my self *roll* 20! DM: The spell curves and slamms into you." Etc.). So cool!

Also, What happens if a player's character dies and (s)he want to take this class instead? How would they pick the spells known for, say, a 6th level Blue Mage? Thanks.

Is the Blue Mage allowed to take PrC levels? In other Words, is the restriction only on Core Classes?

And where did you get the idea from this? Does it spring from a book, or from your mind?

But seriously, this is a totally awesome class.
Praise Lord Akmann!!! Thank you for your words of encouragement! I will answer all of your questions Blane Tog! :D

I'm not quite sure about how to calculate the Percentage Chance. Perhaps you could clarify it w/ a formula or something (like CL of person casting the spell+CHAmod+level+4+5%=X or something. I'm not quite sure how to get this...

The formula is flat no matter the level of spell he is being hit with. (Max Ranks X 3) +Cha mod = %.

For an example, a 10th level Blue Mage. He casts the same as a sorc. 0-5th level spells are available for him. The Base Percent for a 10th level Blue Mage with a +6 Cha Mod would be (13 X3)+6= 45%. The "Base Percentage here is for 1st level Spells. 5% is what deviates in each direction. the % for 0-5th would be. 50,45,40,35,30,25. Those are the #% to learn each level of spell if hit with one.

Could the Blue Mage use a Scroll (/have his buddy use a scroll) to learn a spell? Or a Wand? Etc? Thanx.

Absolutly! The only stipulation is that the Blue mage may still only learn 1 spell PER source PER month. So if a cleric used a wand of Cure Light Wounds on the Blue Mage, and he learned it, that would be the only thing he could learn from the cleric for the month.

I know a cool Special that *could* be overboard, but still cool: let the Blue Mage kinda "grab" a spell aimed for his buddies and shunt int at himself. Like: "DM: Enemy Sorcerer casts a ray. BM: I try a Spellcraft check*roll8 20. DM: It's a Scorching ray. BM: I grab it and pull it into my self *roll* 20! DM: The spell curves and slamms into you." Etc.). So cool!

Sounds neat-o but also too strong. If you write it out and post it here, i might consider it. :D

Also, What happens if a player's character dies and (s)he want to take this class instead? How would they pick the spells known for, say, a 6th level Blue Mage? Thanks.

Hmm hard stuff...This class is really meant to be taken straight through...But Give them what you seem okay. Maybe something similar to a Sorc. I dunno.

Is the Blue Mage allowed to take PrC levels? In other Words, is the restriction only on Core Classes?

Sorry, I'll Paste it..."Special Condition: If a player ever takes another Character Class, They lose all Blue Mage Abilities, and they lose all spells gained via "Blue Magic" ability. They may never again take another level in Blue Mage."

Thanks for all the goodness!
I saw that a while ago Skyrocket. I wanted to take a completely different route. This isnt a PrC. I think there is a good dnd replication of each class.

I wanted my Blue Mage to be as far from Final Fantasy as possible. I think I've suceeded in that aspect.

Does anyone have any more ideas? I liked the Knowledge: (Monsters?) idea! Did anyone find what Look Within My Mind was talking about?
Sounds neat-o but also too strong. If you write it out and post it here, i might consider it.

Hmm.... *puts on thinking cap*
A few possibilities:

I'm pretty sure there already something like this, but at X level, the Blue Mage gets Craft Binding Braclets or something. The Blue Mage can make a couple bracelets and there's 1 Master (whivh the Blue Mage wears) and mabye at most Level/2 or something subsidiary Bracelets. If one of the Subsidiary bracelets' wearers is blasted w/ a spell, the Blue Mage can choose to take the spell instead. Both wearers would have to want this to happen (no stealing healing!) though. Mabye change it to rings or something, since Braclets use the same slot as Bracers (which is quite possible the only non-dex source of armor some other casters). This would of course cost Time/money/XP etc.

Similar to above, perhaprs the Blue Mage could perform a ceremony to bind everyone together, performable at X level. it could cost either X,XXX XP or mabye like a certain amount of HP per participant.

Depending on how "in-tune" the Blue mage is to Magic, at a certian level (s)he could possible contort the path of the magic mid-flight and simple redirect it. This could cause either an amount of nonlethal'lethal/temperary ability damage, or possible an XP cost. You could also make this a per-day thing (like once per day per three levels or something, round down).

Hmm... Quartz? You could buy a quarterstaff w/ a piece of magical quartz on one end that draws the spells towrds you. You couldn't be more than 15 feet away from the actual target or something and you couldn't be out of the natural range of the spell. Obviously, something like this would have to be either a) 1-use per crystal, b) very expensive, or c) both.

On the other end, the blue mage could make a jar of special gel. You throw it at the enegy caster and it explodes like a grenade weapon. If it hits (and mabye a Ref save is failed), then all their spells are redirected at you. If the slash hits them, then the spell has a chance to hit you and a chance to get bounced off in a random direction.

Then there's always the mundane way: Taunting:D. "Your mother was a hampster, and your father smelt of elderberries!" Not *as* cool, and it would have to be a readied action, but still viable (AND it wouldn't even require new mechanics! Bluff-vs-Sense Motive, on a fail there's a chance the opposing spellcaster get's ****** and changes his/her target).

Sorry you asked, right?

I've got another question easily as stupid about my one about PrCs , but i'm asking it anyway:
When you say ALL spells, would this include spell-like abilities such as Mind Blast? Obviously, you couldn't cast it at will, but would it be casteable? I doubt this is what you were talking about, but it's the kind of thinga munchkin could exploit.

Absolutly! The only stipulation is that the Blue mage may still only learn 1 spell PER source PER month. So if a cleric used a wand of Cure Light Wounds on the Blue Mage, and he learned it, that would be the only thing he could learn from the cleric for the month.

Oh, ok. The sentient being casting the spell is, for the purposes of learning spells, considered to be the source. That's better. I was worred for a monent there. Otherwise, it'd be Walk Down to the Local Scroll Shop day, and they'd sell out!
From the 3.5 SRD
KNOWLEDGE (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.
Below are listed typical fields of study.
• Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
• Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
• Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
• Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
• History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
• Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
• Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
• Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
• The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

The Bold parts are particularly poignant.

Personally, I'd suggest making up a new Knoweldge Skill: Knoweldge Creature Magic. You make a check, and if you pass, then you learn a) creature's name, and b) some, if not all, of that creature's magical abilities. It wouldn't tell you things like "Trolls are hurt by Fire" or "It's a bad idea to charge a Gold Dragon" but it would tell you "the Corrolax (small, parrot-like bird) can cast Color Spray at will." What knowldge skills tell you are ultimately up to the DM and his/her interpresation of what they are. You could slip Magic of Creatures in as a sub-layer of any of the above-mentioned knowledges, but haveing a whole new skills would be nice.

Also, I've worked it down to a simple formula (just plug in Spell level and max ranks):
5+ Max Skill Ranks*3+CHA mod -5*Spell Level (add 5 for 0-Level spells instead). I tried your example and came up with identical numbers, so i think it works.
Blaine Tog! You is my new best friend!

When you say ALL spells, would this include spell-like abilities such as Mind Blast? Obviously, you couldn't cast it at will, but would it be casteable? I doubt this is what you were talking about, but it's the kind of thinga munchkin could exploit.

Well, Special abilities can only be learned if they parellel the same as a spell. Like if a creature could just use Fireball 3/day, this would count as Fireball, the 3rd level spell. Special abilities that do not fall into a spell cannot be learned. Such as a Dragon's breath, or anything like that.

Does this make sense?

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EXCELLENT job on the Skill! I added Knowledge: Creature Magic to the class skill lists. And a new Blue Mage cumulative ability to reflect it.

...and PS...did anyone like my Flavour Text? I liked it, cuz i was suprised how well it came out. :D
Should I be running?


Positively inspired!

Well, Special abilities can only be learned if they parellel the same as a spell. Like if a creature could just use Fireball 3/day, this would count as Fireball, the 3rd level spell. Special abilities that do not fall into a spell cannot be learned. Such as a Dragon's breath, or anything like that.

I see what you're saying. Sounds good.

As for the flavor text, I liked it. Certainly better than the average flavor text. Generally, it's a 2-sentence ditto about "it does this and this and this."

*lightbulb* This is kinda silly, but it could be cool: give the Blue Mage the ability to turn any clothing (s)he's wearing blue:D. Mabye at higher levels, his/her skin/hair can change too. You'd have to be pretty creative to get any mechanical mileage out of this, but it could be a nice touch.
Originally posted by Aramek
Blue Magic (Ex): The only way a blue mage may learn new spells is to be hit with them.

This is I presume the true balance on the class. They can never Know a spell with Range Personal. Makes them a bit shy on defense doesn't it?
Lets just say that Blue Mages always wear blue anyway just out of pride! :D

Does anyone see the Red Wizards of Thay wearing green?
A LG Paladin in black leather?
An assassin in fine decadant clothing?...(James Bond )

It is all about flavour!!! And dnd is about to taste a lot more blue.

You make a great point ThorvaldHafgrimsson. The way for them to get around this is to cast it on themselves from a scroll and hope they learn it. Remember, they may only learn 1 spell from a specfic being per month...that includes themselves. :D

But what do you all think about this? Should the Blue Mage have a higher "learned per month" limit if he casts spells on himself through scrolls? Maybe 2/mth? or 3/mth?
This class is cool, but sickeningly overpowered.

Compare it to the sorceror class, it's closest parallel. Now look at advantages a Blue Mage has over a Sorc.

The BM has the spell slots of a Sorc but a wider (theoretically) available spell list. He can even cast spells a wizard can't! I realize that this is the main appeal of the BM, but it needs to be limited somewhat or else offset by weaknesses. I would suggest limiting spells known to less than a sorceror's (with the option to switch one out if a new spell is learned).

The limiting factor on this class (which is not much of a limiting factor, as such things go) is that the BM can't cast spells with personal range? If you allow the BM to learn spells from magic items like wands or scrolls, then this limitation is gone. The BM can cast like a sorceror and learn like a wizard (granted, he isn't guaranteed 2 spells per level, but this is more than made up for by the speed, versatility, and economy with which the BM can learn spells)

You add skills, in more than one way. First, you add "free" Blue Magic, which is the approximate equivalent of Spellcraft's role for a wizard. Then you add bonuses to Spellcraft and Concentration, which are the most overtly powerful skills a combat caster can possess. And these are bonuses, not skill ranks or virtual ranks or effective ranks. These bonuses stack with any ranks the character may already possess in these skills. A level 10 Blue Mage can (and most likely will) have Spellcraft and Concentration modifiers of +19 to Concentration and +17 to Spellcraft, before any feats, circumstance bonuses, or ability modifiers are taken into account.

Finally, the hit die and fortitude save of the BM are both better than the S's, and I really see no compelling reason for them to be; sure, a BM needs to be tough to take hits from spells, but that's only damage dealing spells, and that risk is currently the only weakness of the class. That's like giving a fighter resistance to enchantments (or slippery mind) because he has a low will save -- the whole point of a low will save is that it's a weakness.

And now you've added bonuses to knowledge checks.

Before you add any more power to this class, take some away. No DM worth his salt will touch this class as it is.

I do like the idea, and I know you really want to make it a base class, but I think it is too powerful to be represented appropriately (that is, without severe nerfing) as a core class. Even as a PrC it's pretty powerful. I'd probably make it a 5 lvl PrC, myself.
I think you misunderstand the class. To me, it's main appeal is that a) it's cool. I would LOVE to RP this out, and b) you have Spontaneous casting and Unlimited Spells Known. To be frank, if I got this and I learned Divine Spells (other than Cure/Inflict spells), it would be totally by accident, and more of a side venture than a end to the means. If you realyl think that it's overpowering to allow both types of spells, then perhaps cut the % for learning Divine spells by 1/2 round down.

The limiting factor on this class (which is not much of a limiting factor, as such things go) is that the BM can't cast spells with personal range? If you allow the BM to learn spells from magic items like wands or scrolls, then this limitation is gone..

Again, missing the point. This wasn't a limiting factor to begin with, although granted that spells with a range of Personal are going to be more rare with this caster.

The BM can cast like a sorceror and learn like a wizard (granted, he isn't guaranteed 2 spells per level, but this is more than made up for by the speed, versatility, and economy with which the BM can learn spells)

Well, for startes, you don't learn spells like a Wizard. The only way a Blue Mage learns spells is by sheer luck. At 1st level with 18 CHA, a Blue Mage only has an 11% chance of learning a 1st level spell, and even then the spell has to be cast at him/her. Heck: even 0-level spells only have 16%. That is really, really low, especially considering the fact that there arn't that many casters that the party can reasonably face at that level. Sure: the Blue Mage can get 1 spell from him self (scrolls), 1 from each caster in the party, and 1 from each Bard/rogue (Use Magical Device), but scrolls are a) expensive, and it's unlikely that they will work, and b) this is only 1 per month. Unless your party is willing to wait until the next month, your stuck. Limited Known spells is a big limiting factor, but this one is potentially greater.

You add skills, in more than one way. First, you add "free" Blue Magic, which is the approximate equivalent of Spellcraft's role for a wizard. Then you add bonuses to Spellcraft and Concentration, which are the most overtly powerful skills a combat caster can possess. And these are bonuses, not skill ranks or virtual ranks or effective ranks. These bonuses stack with any ranks the character may already possess in these skills. A level 10 Blue Mage can (and most likely will) have Spellcraft and Concentration modifiers of +19 to Concentration and +17 to Spellcraft, before any feats, circumstance bonuses, or ability modifiers are taken into account.

I kinda see what you mean. Perhaps making them +2 Ranks would be better. It's still more skill points,but at least it doesn't give the character astronomically high modifiers. However, "Blue Magic" isn't that big a deal, in more ways than one;). Remember Bardic Knoweldge? If you put 5 ranks in Knoweldge: History, you get that nice synergy bonus and BK will always be exactly 1 point under any other maxed Knoweldge skill, and you could probably use it for anything. Blue Magic doesn't have any application outside a Blue Mage learning spells. It's not even a skill, it's "skill-like."

Finally, the hit die and fortitude save of the BM are both better than the S's, and I really see no compelling reason for them to be; sure, a BM needs to be tough to take hits from spells, but that's only damage dealing spells, and that risk is currently the only weakness of the class. That's like giving a fighter resistance to enchantments (or slippery mind) because he has a low will save -- the whole point of a low will save is that it's a weakness.

THe hit die should stay, but perhaps the Fort save could go (a Reflex save would be nice). It's not really equatable to the figher's low will save. Is the fighter purposely throwing himself into Enchantments? No. The Blue Mage is. (S)he HAS to if they want any more spells. Anyone who has purposely taken a spell is gonna a) need more HP and b) be more tought, thus waranting more HP. Fort save IS a bit odd, but I can see what he's getting at: the Blue Mage holds his ground and lets the magic was hover him.

And now you've added bonuses to knowledge checks.

1 knoweldge check! 1!! And it's not even a core knowledge skill, it's an entierly new one that can pretty much only be used to tell the Blue Mage if (s)he should be leaping in front of the monseter of hiding in the back with a crossbow. You are grossley simplifying many of the class features, which makes them look overpowered.

Before you add any more power to this class, take some away. No DM worth his salt will touch this class as it is.

Please explain to me how having to get blasted by a spell before you can cast it isn't a limiting factor? Not only that, but you can only learn 1 spell from each enemy that casts spells! The BBEG has a Meteor Storm an a Ray of Frost prepared. He quickens the cantrip, hits you, ad you learn it. He them blasts you w/ meteaor storm and you don't even get the option. You just lose HP.

I do like the idea, and I know you really want to make it a base class, but I think it is too powerful to be represented appropriately (that is, without severe nerfing) as a core class. Even as a PrC it's pretty powerful. I'd probably make it a 5 lvl PrC, myself.

PrC? This? I dunno. I guess you COULD convert it, but that just isn't right. You might as well make the Sorcerer a Prc, or a Wizard. What class would it be for? The sorcerer? No. This is totalyl different than the way a sorcerer casts spells. Totaly different than the way a wizard does too. I can see a few parralells with Divince Spellcasters, but not enough to warrant this as a divine PrC. What I'm basically trying to say is that although you could tranlate this into PrC, it wouldn't tranlsate well, and the flavor's all wrong for a PrC.
What happens to the spell once it hits the Blue Mage? Does it matter if he learns it or not? Does it matter if he saves or not?
I assume that once the spell hits the Blue Mage, it does it's work, whether he learns it or not. Even if he saves he learns it. Note that even if he saves, he's still gonna generally get whacked somewhat, since it's impossible for him to have Evasion.

I've just had a though. What is the difference between an expected spell and an unexpected spell? If the mage readdies an action to absorb the spell, does (s)he get some bonus or something? If (s)he's asleep, is a penalty invoked? It gets complicated if you start doing things like this, but if you connected learning a spell to flatfooted, then it gets easier (like: 1st round of combat=-5% or something; if the Blue Mage is casting the spell himslef, or he's recieving healing afterthe battle from the cleric, does he get a bonus to reflect his readyness to accept the spell?)

What it comes down to is this: does the blue mage have some control over whether or not (s)he learns the spell or is it totally random?
The class looks great. It seems very thought out. planned very well, and it brings up some very possible roleplaying ideas. I see Schmendrick's point though.

But, it all comes down to how the DM plays magic in his/her campaign. In a low magic campaign, they might have a hard time, but can become an extremely integral part of the party.

On the other hand, in a fairly loose magic world, the Blue Mage could become extremely overpowered at mid to high levels.

The DM would just have to watch the available amount of magic they could learn (i.e. no helpful council or school of wizards and sorcerors.). This is easy to accomplish. The DM could take the disposition that all other casters view him/her as a type of thief of spells. Which could make for very good roleplaying. So in the end, it would be up to the DM to watch and regulate it.

In all, it is a very good class. I do have one question. How would epic spells be handled? Can they be learned? If so, it opens some very interesting ideas for very high powered games.
The class looks great. It seems very thought out. planned very well, and it brings up some very possible roleplaying ideas. I see Schmendrick's point though.

But, it all comes down to how the DM plays magic in his/her campaign. In a low magic campaign, they might have a hard time, but can become an extremely integral part of the party.

On the other hand, in a fairly loose magic world, the Blue Mage could become extremely overpowered at mid to high levels.

The DM would just have to watch the available amount of magic they could learn (i.e. no helpful council or school of wizards and sorcerors.). This is easy to accomplish. The DM could take the disposition that all other casters view him/her as a type of thief of spells. Which could make for very good roleplaying. So in the end, it would be up to the DM to watch and regulate it.

In all, it is a very good class. I do have one question. How would epic spells be handled? Can they be learned? If so, it opens some very interesting ideas for very high powered games.
I would reaaally bash this one if it wasn't for the fact that the chance to learn the spells is so low.

I'm not so sure about eliminating the arcane armor % chance for medium armors, though. seems kinda big to me. Then again, I'm all for the light armor...

Does this guy suffer any restrictions to his metamagic feats? Can he learn them without penalty and use them on any spell he knows? I'm not sure why, but it seems kinda strange to me if he can.

Also, I really wouldn't change the saves (he needs them for his abilities to work without him getting killed too easily), but as I said, the medium armor needs some thinking about.

Also; What if he can *literally* absorb spells, like a spellfire channeler from FR? He might suck in a fireball, but he'd have to throw it after a number of rounds =CON modifier or get burnt... does that sound right?
Thank you all so much! This is the most response I have ever gotten!

Does this guy suffer any restrictions to his metamagic feats? Can he learn them without penalty and use them on any spell he knows? I'm not sure why, but it seems kinda strange to me if he can.

Since he casts spontaniously, he does have the Full-Round Restriction to his metamagiced spells. Same as a Sorc would.

The DM would just have to watch the available amount of magic they could learn (i.e. no helpful council or school of wizards and sorcerors.). This is easy to accomplish. The DM could take the disposition that all other casters view him/her as a type of thief of spells. Which could make for very good roleplaying. So in the end, it would be up to the DM to watch and regulate it.

Exactly! I a fully for a strong DM. I am always the DM, I take great effort into always preventing abuse. If i see any player exploiting a loopehole, and if it is a cheap one, I put an end to it. ...Subtley...

How would epic spells be handled? Can they be learned? If so, it opens some very interesting ideas for very high powered games.

I originally had the ability to absorb Epic spells as 10th level slots...but since that would only be %5 lower than 9th, we had a problem. So I came up with a solution! ^_^

"Epic Blue Magic: Must have all 20 levels in Blue Mage. This feat allows the BLue Mage to absorb Epic spells. The base % is still based off of the same formula. And the Base chance to learn one is 5% lower than the 9th levels spells. However it is modified based on the strength of the spell. For every 5 points the DC of the epic spell has over the amount of RANKS the Blue Mage has in Spellcraft, reduce the % chance to learn by 5%. For example, a 21st level Blue Mage would undoubtidly have the full 24 ranks in Spellcraft. And with a +9 Cha mod, that equates to a base chance to learn Epic spells at 36%. A spell that is DC50 comes at him, he has an 11% chance to learn it. (36% base. 50-24 ranks = 26. divide by 5 = roughly 5. 5%x5 = 25%. 36-25 = 11%)

I'm not so sure about eliminating the arcane armor % chance for medium armors, though. seems kinda big to me.

I think the Ur preist gets something similar, and at a level sooner than 20th. So I also gave the Blue mage it later.

What happens to the spell once it hits the Blue Mage? Does it matter if he learns it or not? Does it matter if he saves or not?

Blaine Tog was correct. It does not matter if the Save is made or not. The % chance to learn the spell is rolled first, then the save. He very well may die after finally learning a Fantasmal Killer spell. And when/if he is brought back, he will know the spell still.

Also; What if he can *literally* absorb spells, like a spellfire channeler from FR? He might suck in a fireball, but he'd have to throw it after a number of rounds =CON modifier or get burnt... does that sound right?

I thought of it, but to keep it the way I envisioned, the Blue Mage doesnt absorb the spells. He must be struck to really get a feel for the spell. If he makes the save is irrelevant. But he doesnt absorb spells like a SpCh.
I think I've been a little misunderstood by some of the posters here. I don't have anything against the BM class -- if I did, I'd ignore this thread. I think it's really cool, and I'd like to see it used. I just think there are some very large issues that need to be addressed.

Originally posted by BlaineTogWell, for startes, you don't learn spells like a Wizard. The only way a Blue Mage learns spells is by sheer luck. At 1st level with 18 CHA, a Blue Mage only has an 11% chance of learning a 1st level spell, and even then the spell has to be cast at him/her. Heck: even 0-level spells only have 16%. That is really, really low, especially considering the fact that there arn't that many casters that the party can reasonably face at that level. Sure: the Blue Mage can get 1 spell from him self (scrolls), 1 from each caster in the party, and 1 from each Bard/rogue (Use Magical Device), but scrolls are a) expensive, and it's unlikely that they will work, and b) this is only 1 per month. Unless your party is willing to wait until the next month, your stuck. Limited Known spells is a big limiting factor, but this one is potentially greater.

You do learn spells like a Wizard, if you have access to a scroll, you can effectively copy that scroll into your own "mind spellbook". Granted, you only have a small chance to do so, but you can try over and over again until you run out of cash to buy scrolls. And this really only matters for Personal range spells, as everything else can be gained through other casters (friendly or otherwise). If there are any other casters at all in the group, it won't be all that long before the BM knows [nearly] every spell they do. Limiting this by time isn't enough, because some game groups have huge amounts of downtime. Now, if you want to offset this by saying a BM has a shortened lifespan (on account of constantly shuffling magic energies in his being), that might help a little, but only for humans or other relatively short lived races.

Every month the BM can get a new spell per caster or UMD character in the party (plus bonus spells from enemies, occasionally). The fact that the BM only has a % chance to learn it is largely irrelevant, especially for gaining spells from other spontaneous casters; they can just toss him a few of their extra unused slots every day until he learns it.


I kinda see what you mean. Perhaps making them +2 Ranks would be better. It's still more skill points,but at least it doesn't give the character astronomically high modifiers. However, "Blue Magic" isn't that big a deal, in more ways than one. Remember Bardic Knoweldge? If you put 5 ranks in Knoweldge: History, you get that nice synergy bonus and BK will always be exactly 1 point under any other maxed Knoweldge skill, and you could probably use it for anything. Blue Magic doesn't have any application outside a Blue Mage learning spells. It's not even a skill, it's "skill-like."

Yes, BM is only "skill like", I'll grant that. But Should I be Running? is more like an actual skill. Sure, it grants you only a specific bonus per Knowledge check, but it grants it to a lot of different disciplines. And one of the [arguably] most useful applications of Knowledge, at that. Passing out free ranks in Conc or Spellcraft doesn't sit well with me, if for no other reason than it leads to min/maxy issues when assigning the ranks at level up. Perhaps Blue Magic abilities could be rolled into Spellcraft, making it an "all but mandatory" skill much like a bard's perform skill. That would also open up the ability to take feats (Skill Focus, Magical Aptitude) to boost the BM's learning chance.

Originally posted by Aramek
Exactly! I a fully for a strong DM. I am always the DM, I take great effort into always preventing abuse. If i see any player exploiting a loopehole, and if it is a cheap one, I put an end to it. ...Subtley...

The point of adding a core class is that it is *universally* available, and relying on a strong DM to keep balance is not really an option. Some games out there suffer enough having a DM too inexperienced to catch rulebreaking to throw in a class where imbalance is inherent in the rules.

I think the Ur preist gets something similar, and at a level sooner than 20th. So I also gave the Blue mage it later.

The Ur preist casts divine spells.

Blaine Tog was correct. It does not matter if the Save is made or not. The % chance to learn the spell is rolled first, then the save. He very well may die after finally learning a Fantasmal Killer spell. And when/if he is brought back, he will know the spell still.

I would rule that the spell must affect the BM in some way. If making his save avoids all effects of the spell (like Charm Person or a ref save with Evasion he very well might have picked up somewhere else), he should not learn it. Of course, there's always forfeiting your throw... Which brings up another point. I still think the BM should only have a strong will save, but I can see the arguments for it. How about this: Been There, Done That: When targeted by a spell that he has previously learned, a BM gains a +1 bonus to his saving throw. This bonus is cumulative. and grant it every other level. Or just give it at 2nd level, making the bonus equal to 1/2 class levels. This grants them better than a strong base save on Fort and Ref against spells they know, and an absolutely INSANE will save against the same, but it is subject to the same limits you put on spell learning.

Speaking of limits on spell learning, I still think the BM should have a limited number of "slots" for spells known, with the option to lose an old one if a new one he likes better comes along. The exact number I'm not sure of, but I would probably make it less than a sorceror's.
As for learning spells with a Blue Magic skill vs. a Spellcraft check, here's my proposal. A % chance based predominantly on your class level (and much less so by your ability scores) just feels passive, which doesn't fit with the "I put myself in harm's way to become more powerful" feeling of the class as established by your tasty flavor text. Making a check vs. the spell fits a lot better with the "Ha! I Pwn j00!" attitude that makes a BM so much fun.

Essentially, the base percent chance of learning a spell under Blue Magic "skill" rules is 3L+9+M-5() (where L is BM level and M is CHA mod); I have two problems with this. The first, as already mentioned, is that it feels too passive, more like a game mechanic than a class feature. The second is that it underemphasizes the importance of your CHA mod. +1% for every 2 CHA?

Making it a Spellcraft check does several things:

It crystallizes the % chance into 5% increments, which isn't too big a deal.

It all but forces the Blue Mage to put skill points into Spellcraft.

It shifts the emphasis on spell learning from CHA to INT (which I feel it should; CHA represents personal power, translated into a spells power when cast, while INT represents mental ability and affinity for gaining new knowledge/ability) and magnifies it so that a +1 modifier counts for 5% chance-to-learn. As an additional effect, it makes INT a lot more important for a Blue Mage.

As it stands, blue magic gives the BM an approximately 10% chance to learn a first level spell at first level. Any spell becomes 3% easier to learn every level, and every spell level is 5% less likely to be learned than the one below it. If a BM gains access to another spell level every 2 levels, this means that his "highest level spell slot" is easier to get to each time he achieves it, because his chance to learn has increased 6% while the spell level only decreases it 5%. This seems backwards.

All right, so how would we do this with spellcraft? Every two levels (or +2 to Spellcraft), a BM is going to gain a new spell level, so it makes sense to make the DC increase by 2 per spell level. Let's realistically assume max ranks at every level, and take a mid-point example to extrapolate from. At 10th level BM with 16 CHA under the blue magic system has a 22% chance to learn a 5th level spell. For our purposes here, let's say the archetypical BM has a CHA of 16 and an INT of 13. A spellcraft check to gain the spell should have a 20 or 25% chance of learning the spell, so the natural roll should need to be 16 or 17. Spellcraft will be at 13 ranks + 1 or 2 INT, or +14 / +15. A Spellcraft DC should, then, be about 31 for a 5th level spell. Let's say 30 because it feels clearner. So a BM can make a [reactive] Spellcraft check vs. 20 + (2x spell level) to learn a spell he is affected by. At 1st level, Spellcraft is probably +5 (4 ranks, 1 INT), so against a DC 22 (1-level spell) he has a 20% chance to learn. 30% for a 0-level. It's a little more than the system as is, but I think it makes a lot more sense.

Alternately, I would suggest making the DC 15+(3x spell level). Now a 1st level has a really good (40%) chance of learning a 1st level spell, and a 10th level has a 30% chance of learning a 5th. An 18th level has a 10% chance of learning a 9th level spell, and a 20th level has a 20% chance. (these numbers assuming +1 or +2 natural INT modifier and disregarding item, feat, etc. bonuses -- which WILL be present at mid or higher levels)
Your Epic feat could just make it the difference beyween the DC and the Blue mages Knowledge (if you are rolling on % which is the only way you get the learnning system to work) teh change in the chance to learn (-5% for every 5 difference is functionally the same as -1% per 1 difference)

Being able to learn spells by casting them from a scroll will be stronger for longer lived races - particularly if this is the only way to learn Personal Range spells. (Well and a Ring of spell Storing)
It might balance better if Blur mages simply could not lear personal range spells because they have such a hard time "getting hit" by them. Once they are off their list of allowable spells, then they DO constitute a pretty big weakness for using Spell completion Items and it limits their spell knowledge in general.

As has been mentioned elsewhere this class seeems like it would have a rather brittle balance. Too weak in some campaigns, particularly at lower levels, and possibly too strong in others, particularly at higher levels. It probably should be kept to very controlled campaigns, but that might be inferred since you would hardly post a class which wold NOT fit yuor campaign.
Lose the epic feat. The power behind epic spells is incredible, and that is the reason every spellcaster is forced to research them in a manner approaching that of a magic item (vast amounts of time, gp, and XP). Even a small chance to gain something like this for "free" is broken.
Well, I talked to my DM and he flat out disalowed this class. Why? It's a core class. He sid it was way too powerful for a core class, but it would work just fine as a PrC. Not that I agree with him...

Second, he also came to the conclusion that a Spellcraft check would make more sense, and be more KISS.

Thirdly, He agreed that the extra skill points that stack with everything are a bit much.

Speaking of limits on spell learning, I still think the BM should have a limited number of "slots" for spells known, with the option to lose an old one if a new one he likes better comes along. The exact number I'm not sure of, but I would probably make it less than a sorceror's.

Hmm... I can see how a limited number of slots for Spells Known would be useful (and definately a good, solid limiting factor), but it underpowers the class. First of all, the number should be larger tha nthe sorcerer's Spell Known, since there's no gaurentee that you'll learn them. Secondly, the %/SpellcraftDC would have to be lower since you remove the "Unlimted Known" thingey. However, this kinda takes away from the class' concept.

I would rule that the spell must affect the BM in some way. If making his save avoids all effects of the spell (like Charm Person or a ref save with Evasion he very well might have picked up somewhere else), he should not learn it.

The Blue Mage CANNOT have Evasion. It's IMPOSSIBLE. A Blue Mage cannot take levels in other classes, and If I read this right, no other classes can multiclass into Blue Mage. Evasion problem solves.
As for spell such as Charm Person, the spells still hit's him, right? Even if he makes the save, the very fact that he had to make a save means that the spell effected him. At least, this is so in ther case of Will/Fort saves. Ref saves (not his strong suit, either) will rarely stave off all effects.
I would rule that if the spell misses the Blue Mage, then (s)he can't learn it. This would mean that Rays would have to hit his AC and Reflex (Negate) saves would have to be voluntarily dropped. Ref(1/2) saves still hit the Blue Mage, just not as hard, so he can still learn them.

I have a compromise, although it totally ****s up the class concept: 3/4BaB and Light Armor w/o failure at 1st level, along with a few more martial/exotic weapon proficientcies. Possibley a d8 HD, too. Make the Blue Mage a skirmisher who can also learn spells (think: secondary caster). Then you could cap the Spell Known as fewer than a Aor and have a reasonably playable class (capping them under w/o giving them some way of fighting is just silly. They suddenly become less powerful than a Sorcerer).
Originally posted by BlaineTog
Well, I talked to my DM and he flat out disalowed this class. Why? It's a core class. He sid it was way too powerful for a core class, but it would work just fine as a PrC. Not that I agree with him...

The reason this fits better as a PrC is because it's a new/modified take (education through affliction) on an existing concept (spellcaster), and because it has a lot of special abilities that aren't easily handled independently. And because it's (currently) freakishly powerful. The reason it doesn't work as a PrC is because blue magic is fundamentally different from other spellcasting -- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have another caster suddenly learn it; you'd think it would be something you started with or nothing. Still, Dragon Disciple doesn't mesh particularly well with a standard class, either, so perhaps it could be looked at that way. Require some Spellcraft ranks, maybe a sprinkling of Knowledges, and probably Concentration, too. Maybe a prerequisite will save, and certainly an RP reason (like getting hit to death or near death by a spell; something involving exposure to magic, anyway). Dunno about feats; probably none.

Originally posted by BlaineTog
Hmm... I can see how a limited number of slots for Spells Known would be useful (and definately a good, solid limiting factor), but it underpowers the class. First of all, the number should be larger tha nthe sorcerer's Spell Known, since there's no gaurentee that you'll learn them. Secondly, the %/SpellcraftDC would have to be lower since you remove the "Unlimted Known" thingey. However, this kinda takes away from the class' concept.

It doesn't underpower the class. Over time (and without even necessarily gaining levels), the BM is going to know more spells than a level equivalent sorceror. And he's going to cast them in exactly the same way. The risk associated with gaining spells is only a small weakness (and without proper DM moderation, it's actually a strength). I agree that limiting does take some from the class' concept, and that's another reason I think it's better served as a PrC. A PrC is supposed to be powerful; it's what you get in exchange for your "normal" class levels, and meeting the sometimes otherwise inefficient prerequisites (unless you're going for Loremaster, Skill Focus: Knowledge is kind of wasted on an adventurer). But, for Aramek's sake, I'll try to work this into a base class. Here's an idea: link spells known for the Blue Magic to his level, but leave it flexible over what levels he knows. Give the BM "spell capacity" or some such score. Have him start with 1 at first level and then gain his level's worth each level (+2 at 2nd =3, +3=6 at 3rd, +4=10 at 4th, etc. -- this is easy to reference even without doing any, as it's the same formula used for experience and levels). Give him a bonus equal to his CHA or INT, or even WIS; some mental stat, anyway. I'd suggest INT, but I can see all three working. That's his total number of spell levels he can know (0-levels count for 1/2). Under this formula (and with no ability modifier), he starts out weaker than a sorceror (1 vs. 6), equals the sorceror at 4th level (where both have 10), and then quickly surpasses the sorceror (at level 20, a sorceror has 157.5 spell levels known, where the BM would have 210, possibly 5 9th levels and a 7th). He has a spells known advantage over the sorc, and added flexibility (can switch out old spells for new ones), but there is risk associated with both of these. Or, better yet, make it 4xLevel+modifier. This has him weaker at 1st, stronger from 2nd through 10th, and weaker from 11 through 20th. Ultimately, he becomes weaker as a caster (but by then, he's a lot more likely to have all his spell knowledge slots filled, having been exposed to much more magic over the course of his career), which is the price to pay for the versatility (theoretically culminating in the kind of dramatic display exemplified in the flavor text). But he becomes stronger, too. With the save bonus I suggested earlier, even a BM with a whole lot of low level spell knowledge is pretty well off, considering the massive save bonus he gets vs. spells he's familiar with.

Oh, yeah. That reminds me. Nix the familiar. The BM doesn't have enough innate magical ability (all of it is dynamically learned) to do that. Taking the familiar away not only makes a bit o' sense, but it helps balance the class somewhat (not to mention defining it a bit, too).

Originally posted by BlaineTog
The Blue Mage CANNOT have Evasion. It's IMPOSSIBLE. A Blue Mage cannot take levels in other classes, and If I read this right, no other classes can multiclass into Blue Mage. Evasion problem solves.

A BM can have Evasion if she gains it before her BM levels; the BM restriction says "once you leave, you can never go back", but doesn't mean you can't have preexisting classes.

Originally posted by BlaineTog
As for spell such as Charm Person, the spells still hit's him, right? Even if he makes the save, the very fact that he had to make a save means that the spell effected him. At least, this is so in ther case of Will/Fort saves. Ref saves (not his strong suit, either) will rarely stave off all effects.
I would rule that if the spell misses the Blue Mage, then (s)he can't learn it. This would mean that Rays would have to hit his AC and Reflex (Negate) saves would have to be voluntarily dropped. Ref(1/2) saves still hit the Blue Mage, just not as hard, so he can still learn them.

I think the Will/Fort depends a lot on how you're interpreting magic. For some spells a saving throw is implied to be subconscious (nightmare, or scry), and those don't make any sense to be learned. Really what we're looking for here is "when the Blue Mage is touched by magic and is aware of the contact", but "touched by magic" gets a little subjective. Saying Ref(negate) doesn't count but Will/Fort(negate) does makes a lot of sense, but feels like an unwieldy mechanic. I think I'd stick with "must be affected by" for now, both for clarity and for the fact that getting hit with magic is still the main balance limit on the class' special ability -- and is only a limiter when it comes to offensive spells ("Why are you dodging my hand? This is a cure spell!").

Originally posted by BlaineTog
(capping them under w/o giving them some way of fighting is just silly. They suddenly become less powerful than a Sorcerer).

The fact that they can cast divine spells and dynamically change their spell list (without waiting two levels for a chance to do it once) gives them more power.

As for armor, perhaps all Blue Mage spells should be cast as though they were arcanes, limited by AFR. After all, divine magic is looser because it's channeled (not generated) by the caster, and bardic magic is looser because it's a freer form of magic. To reproduce someone else's spells you're going to have to do some good mimicry, and that means you'll have to do it accurately.

Ok, here's another point: what about the skill list? I'm not sure it should match a sorceror's. It makes good sense to add Spot and Listen to a class who's always on the lookout for new magical abilities.
The spell gaining mechanic and the class in general seem quite unbalanced, i pretty much agree with Schmendrick on this. I have a few changes that might help this class become balanced.

Skill points: 4 + Int modifier
Armor proficiency: NONE
Armor Spell failure as the original spell. (divine = all armor, bard = light, arcane = none)
Hp: d6
Special abilities: Scrap out all Spellcraft and Concentration special bonuses, 4 skillpoints per level are good enough for all skillpoint needs (as is good inteligence modifier, See below)

Spell System:
Casting Spells: Like sorcerer in all aspects, spells known are gained through the spell capturing system.
Capturing Spells: In order to gain new spells the BM must capture a spell into his Mind when they hit him, doing this is a standard action that can be readied or taken before its turn comes up (Much like Faerun's Reactive Counterspell feat). The spell must have a chance to affect the BM (correct type, on the spell area, not negated by spell resistance, spell succeeded (not dispelled, interrupted, etc) But may be resisted by saving throw). To attempt to learn a spell cast on the BM, he must succeed identifying the spell (check below or phb) and make a reactive Capture check. This check equals his 1d20 + Caster Level (BM levels) + other bonuses (detailed below) and its DC = 11 + Source’s Caster Level OR the spells original DC, whichever is higher. If both checks are successful then the spell is added to his repertoire, provided he has available spells known from the correct level (see below) or he replaced a previous spell. The number of Free spells a BM can learn from a particular level equal to 10 – spell level. The BM can learn up to one more spell per level per intelligence modifier but must pay a small xp cost equal to that of crafting a scroll of that particular level (minimum caster level).
Spell Schools: Starting at 1st level the BM selects 3 schools from the following list: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation. Any spell cast upon the BM which comes from a school he selected can be captured at its original level, if the spell comes from a school other than those he selected then the spell level is 1 higher than what the original caster used. If the BM selects Divination as his Favored School he gains a +2 bonus on his Spellcraft and Capture rolls done only for capturing new spells for his repretorire.
Spell Focus and Spell Penetration: These feats give a +1 bonus to Spell Capture rolls.

Identify Spell being cast or recieved. 3 ways:
1. Reactive Spellcraft Check to identify the spell. Seeing or hearing components (DC 15 + Spell level as phb)
2. After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. (DC 25 + Spell Level as phb)
3. Knowing the spell (previously identified, someone tells you what he will cast, Obviousness, like fireballs on a fireball contest)
________________________________________
I hope you like my System, I think it goes a long way on balancing this cool class.
Give the BM "spell capacity" or some such score. Have him start with 1 at first level and then gain his level's worth each level (+2 at 2nd =3, +3=6 at 3rd, +4=10 at 4th, etc. -- this is easy to reference even without doing any, as it's the same formula used for experience and levels). Give him a bonus equal to his CHA or INT, or even WIS; some mental stat, anyway. I'd suggest INT, but I can see all three working.

I REALLY like this idea! Thank you very much! If you could just format it in a sorta "offical" way, I will paste it onto the Blue Mage itself. :D

Also, dont get me wrong...I LOVE your Spellcraft system, but the reason I picked the current formula, is because Spellcraft may be modified by items and feats. I wanted a way to prevent people cheating the class more than the hole that already exists. Max Ranks cannot be changed. Thats why I picked it.

You did a great job on the Spellcraft idea though. Kudos on the Spell capasity!

I'm just not smart enough to pull it together.
The reason this fits better as a PrC is because it's a new/modified take (education through affliction) on an existing concept (spellcaster), and because it has a lot of special abilities that aren't easily handled independently. And because it's (currently) freakishly powerful. The reason it doesn't work as a PrC is because blue magic is fundamentally different from other spellcasting -- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have another caster suddenly learn it; you'd think it would be something you started with or nothing. Still, Dragon Disciple doesn't mesh particularly well with a standard class, either, so perhaps it could be looked at that way. Require some Spellcraft ranks, maybe a sprinkling of Knowledges, and probably Concentration, too. Maybe a prerequisite will save, and certainly an RP reason (like getting hit to death or near death by a spell; something involving exposure to magic, anyway). Dunno about feats; probably none.

Mostly agreed. "Freakishly powerful"? I dunno. But hey: we're still in mid-fix, right?

Oh, yeah. That reminds me. Nix the familiar. The BM doesn't have enough innate magical ability (all of it is dynamically learned) to do that. Taking the familiar away not only makes a bit o' sense, but it helps balance the class somewhat (not to mention defining it a bit, too).

More semi-agreement. This doesn't really seem to be a familiar-type class.

A BM can have Evasion if she gains it before her BM levels; the BM restriction says "once you leave, you can never go back", but doesn't mean you can't have preexisting classes.

That's just semantics. This class isn't meant to have that option.
Special Condition: If a player ever takes another Character Class, They lose all Blue Mage Abilities, and they lose all spells gained via "Blue Magic" ability. They may never again take another level in Blue Mage.

The key phrases are: "ever takes another class" and "If a player ever takes another class,... They may never again take another level in Blue Mage." Although this doesn't explicitely disallow taking other classes first, that's what he's trying to do.

I think the Will/Fort depends a lot on how you're interpreting magic. For some spells a saving throw is implied to be subconscious (nightmare, or scry), and those don't make any sense to be learned. Really what we're looking for here is "when the Blue Mage is touched by magic and is aware of the contact", but "touched by magic" gets a little subjective. Saying Ref(negate) doesn't count but Will/Fort(negate) does makes a lot of sense, but feels like an unwieldy mechanic. I think I'd stick with "must be affected by" for now, both for clarity and for the fact that getting hit with magic is still the main balance limit on the class' special ability -- and is only a limiter when it comes to offensive spells ("Why are you dodging my hand? This is a cure spell!").

Interpretation? Sure. More agreement. But personally, I think that since you arn't supposed to be able to multiclass, Blue Mage is supposed to be inborn, and learning to gain Spells Known by being hit by them isn't something you can do (ie multiclassing into Blue mage). However, if you're using this as a limiting factor, then possibly it could work, although it doesn't make a whole lot of fluff-sence to me.

The fact that they can cast divine spells and dynamically change their spell list (without waiting two levels for a chance to do it once) gives them more power.

Yes, but they still have to have a source from which to get said spells, which means nothing is an absolute. The only problem with this concept is that it's scary-hard to balance (and would require DM intervention). I'm hesitent to suggest removing Divine magic from the Possible known spells because it takes away from the concept. Although to be quite honest, Divine Magic is mostly underpowered anyway, even though it can do thi8ngs that arcane magic can't. Think about it: the Cleric gets a d8 HD, 3/4 BaB, Heavy Armor Prof (as well as Favored Weapons), AND they learn all their spells of the same level at the same time, AND they don't need compjents for the vast majority of their spells. And domains. Basically, Divine Magic (while invaluable to a party) isn't as powerful as Arcane Magic, which is why WotC felt the need to give Divine spellcasters other goodies. The cleric in my current party is an awesome fighter, plus he's got spells. Although I wouldn't complain if the %/DC to learn Divine spells was less than for Arcane.

As for armor, perhaps all Blue Mage spells should be cast as though they were arcanes, limited by AFR. After all, divine magic is looser because it's channeled (not generated) by the caster, and bardic magic is looser because it's a freer form of magic. To reproduce someone else's spells you're going to have to do some good mimicry, and that means you'll have to do it accurately.

IMHO, this really depends on whether the BM is an Arcane or Divince Spellcaster. I belive it's the former that can leanrs the latter's tricks. So, ASF SHOULD apply to Divine spells cast by the BM, at least unti l10th level :D.

Ok, here's another point: what about the skill list? I'm not sure it should match a sorceror's. It makes good sense to add Spot and Listen to a class who's always on the lookout for new magical abilities.

Hmm... I'm not so sure. They can't really afford more than 2 or 3 skills as it is w/ 2SP/level. Unless you'de suggest rasing it to 4/level, the Sorcerer's sparse list should suffice.

OT: Why are the skill points always 2/4/6/8 per level? Why arn't there any 1/3/5/7/9? just wonderin':D.
Here's my suggestion, so far:

The Blue Mage

Skill Points: (4 + Int) X 4 at first level. (4 + Int) every level thereafter.
Alignment: Any
Class Skills: As Sorceror adding Spot, Listen, and the Knowledges Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, The Planes
Hit Die: d4
Armour Prof: Light Armour (Arcane spell failure applies)
Weapon Prof: All simple.

BAB: As Sorceror
Saves: Poor Fort/Poor Ref/Good Will
Spellcasting: Spontaneous as Sorceror, and may use both Arcane and Divine equipment.
Spells per day: Same as Sorceror
Special Abilities:
Lv1: Blue Magic, Sense Creature Magic (+0)
Lv2: Been there, Done that (+1)
Lv3: SCM (+1)
Lv4: BtDt (+2)
Lv5:
Lv6: BtDt (+3), SCM (+2)
Lv7:
Lv8: BtDt (+4)
Lv9: SCM (+3)
Lv10: BtDt (+5)
Lv11:
Lv12: BtDt (+6), SCM (+4)
Lv13:
Lv14: BtDt (+7)
Lv15: SCM (+5)
Lv16: BtDt (+8)
Lv17:
Lv18: BtDt (+9), SCM (+6)
Lv19:
Lv20: BtDt (+10)

Spells: The Blue Mage casts spontaniously, as a Sorceror. His Charisma controls the level of the spells he is able to cast, his spells' saving throw DCs, and grants a number of bonus spells per day. All spells cast by a Blue Mage are considered arcane spells and are subject to arcane spell failure.

Spells Known: A Blue Mage can know a number of spell levels equal to four times his class level, plus his Intelligence modifier. For purposes of calculating spells known, a 0-level spell counts as 1/2 level. A Blue Mage may voluntarily forget a spell at any time as a free action.

Blue Magic (Ex): The only way a Blue Mage may learn new spells is to experience them. To experience a spell, the Blue Mage must be affected by a spell or spell-like ability and be aware of it. A spell that allows a saving throw to negate all effects of the spell is not considered to have been experienced if this saving throw is made; however, a Blue Mage may voluntarily fail his save for the sake of experiencing the spell. Once affected, the Blue Mage may make a Spellcraft check (DC 15+3 times the spell's level) to learn it. If learning the spell causes the Blue Mage's spell levels known to exceed his capacity, he must make a Fortitude save each day (DC number of spell levels above capacity) or lose 1 point of Constitution for every two spell levels he exceeds his capacity (round up). This ability loss is permanent and may not be removed by any means (including a Miracle or Wish) until the Blue Mage's spell levels known fall below his limit, at which point it may be recovered naturally or magically. The DC for the Fortitude save increases by +1 for every consecutive day the Blue Mage has been beyond his capacity.

Most importantly, a Blue Mage may only learn one spell from the same source in a months time. All divine magic from a given entity (deity, nature, etc.) has the same source. For non-divine magic, a source consists of any creature with class levels. A creature with no class levels is considered equivalent to all other creatures of its kind with no class levels (and monsters with greater hit dice than their kin); magic inherent in a bloodline is inherently the same.

Sense Creature Magic (Sp): A Blue Mage possesses the ability to sense inherent magical ability in creatures. As a standard action, a Blue Mage may make a Wisdom check (DC 15) to determine whether a creature possessing spell-like abilities is within 10 ft/level. If multiple creatures are present, the Blue Mage must make the check for each creature. If the Blue Mage is already aware of and able to observe a creature sensed, he is allowed to make an appropriate knowledge check to know the nature of its abilities. (This specialized use of Knowledge skills may be used untrained.) At 3rd level, the Blue Mage gains a +1 bonus to this Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels.

Been there, Done that. (Ex): A Blue Mage of 2nd level gains a +1 competence bonus to a saving throw against any spell he currently has in his pool of known spells. This bonus increases by +1 for every two additional Blue Mage levels (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th, etc.).

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New Feat
Acquired Familiar:
Prerequisite: Must be able to cast arcane spells.
Benefits: This feat allows an arcane caster to summon a familiar, as a sorceror or wizard. The familiar's abilities advance as though the arcane caster's level were half its actual level (and the experience penalty for the familiar's death is correspondingly lower).
Normal: Blue Mages and Bards may not summon familiars.
Special: If the character already has levels in a class that summons a familiar, those levels stack with the (halved) nonfamiliar arcane caster levels for purposes of determining the familiar's abilities.
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Note that I removed the multiclass penalty; I see no reason a Blue Mage could not also learn other abilities (unlike a paladin or monk, which is abnormally dedicated to one path).

Revisions: 1)added creature-appropriate Knowledge skills; changed base skill points from 2 to 4; placed scaling CON penalties for exceeding spell levels known; changed phrasing on BtDt from "he already knows" to "he currently has in his pool of known spells"
Well, it's certainly streamlined. I see some things I like and some I don't. Here we go:

Skill Points: (2+Int)X4 at first level. (2+Int) thereafter.
Alignment: Any
Class Skills: As Sorceror adding Spot, Listen, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: Nature.
Hit Die: d4
Armour Prof: Light Armour (Arcane spell failure applies)
Weapon Prof: All simple.

Fine, fine, fine. d6 Hit die makes more sense, though. And why give Armor Prfociency at all if ASP still applies? And adding ll those Class Skills stretched the BM's skill points too thin, I think.

Spells: The Blue Mage casts spontaniously, as a Sorceror. His Charisma controls the level of the spells he is able to cast, his spells' saving throw DCs, and grants a number of bonus spells per day. All spells cast by a Blue Mage are considered arcane spells and are subject to arcane spell failure.

Spells Known: A Blue Mage can know a number of spell levels equal to four times his class level, plus his Intelligence modifier. For purposes of calculating spells known, a 0-level spell counts as 1/2 level. A Blue Mage may voluntarily forget a spell at any time as a free action.

There are a few things wrong with this.
1) It's cruel to give the BM 2 primary spell stats. No other class has two different stats governing spellcasting, and although I realize this class is different, this is just totally off the wall and weakens the class (breaks it if the player gets fewer than 2 17s).
2) Spells Known? This is too low. At 1st level, the Sor knows 6.5 levels, the Blue Mage knows 4+int mod (which will probably be 2nd best). The BM COULD know more, but it's not likely. At 10th, your lookin' at Sor= 40.5, BM=40+INT mod. Here, the BM is probably gonna have higher. But what about 20th level? Sor= 157.5, BM=80!!! And the Sorcerer doesn't even have to stick his neck out to get them! IMHO, the alure of this class is not Divine Magic (that's a nice extra) but the possibility of Unlimited Known Spells (or at least more than the Sor). It's dangerous though. The only real advantage of this is that the Blue Mage could know 9 9th level spells, which is all well and good until you realize that he only gets his INT mod for anything less than 9th. 9th spells are great, but you can't get by with just them. This character's weakness (w/ your system) is even greater than the Sorcerer's weakness, which many people feel to be contraining. The ability to switch 'em out if all well and good until you realize that if you were playing to sorcerer, you wouldn't have too. It's not like you can get anything from monsters that you couldn't get by playing a Core Class.

Sense Creature Magic (Sp): A Blue Mage possesses the ability to sense inherent magical ability in creatures. As a standard action, a Blue Mage may make a Wisdom check (DC 15) to determine whether a creature possessing spell-like abilities is within 10 ft/level. If multiple creatures are present, the Blue Mage must make the check for each creature. If the Blue Mage is already aware of and able to observe a creature sensed, he is allowed to make an appropriate knowledge check to know the nature of its abilities. (This specialized use of Knowledge skills may be used untrained.) At 3rd level, the Blue Mage gains a +1 bonus to this Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels.

I don't like this. First of all, by your definition, the BM isn't in alghnment with magic, so why should he be able to sense it? What was wrong with Knoweldge: Creature Magic, especialyl sicne it cost Skill Points (which are not exactly easy to come by).

Been there, Done that.(Ex): A Blue Mage of 2nd level gains a +1 competence bonus to a saving throw against any spell he already knows. This bonus increases by +1 for every two additional Blue Mage levels (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th, etc.).

Good, but make it for any spell the BM has EVER known. This makes switching out spells less than a TOTAL loss.

My. $0.02.
About the not having evasion thing. Ever heard of a ring of evasion?

or is there a rule against wearing rings? (sorry i didn't read through the ENTIRE thing).
Then that would make the Relfex (Negate), now wouldn't it?

Besides, you can't use a single item to prove a class as broken. Ifthat was true, then the fighter would be broken bases solely on the Spiked Chain.
uh, i didn't say it was. you just kept saying thats its impossible for the blue mage to have evasion because its not supposed to have other classes when anyone can have evasion just by getting a 25,000gp ring.
Well, is that all? Just 25,000gp? Well, I bet they get handed out like candy, now don't they? And Thank you so very much for your polite attitude. I really appreciate it. I would also like to take this opportunity to appoligize for never before hearing of a Ring of Evasion. Please excuse me for having less than encyclopedic knoweldge of magic items. I appologize.
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Anyone have anything contructive to say about this class? Thank you and have a nice day.