Pyrokineticist's Flame Lash

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OK so it's a 15 foot whip of unstable ectoplasm that's on fire. It can qualify for both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Given all of that, do the following still apply while using Flame Lash:
  • Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
  • You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.
  • When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).
  • You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.
  • You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier.
OK so it's a 15 foot whip of unstable ectoplasm that's on fire. It can qualify for both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Given all of that, do the following still apply while using Flame Lash:
  • Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
  • You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.
  • When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).
  • You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.
  • You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier.

It says that all feats that apply to the use of a standard whip also apply to it. so finess,imp disarm, and imp trip yes.

I dont know about the +2 on disarm checks

it uses a ranged touch attack, not a normal attack. No extra STR
I forgot. It's still a ranged weapon, so it still provokes attacks of opportunity.
It says that all feats that apply to the use of a standard whip also apply to it. so finess,imp disarm, and imp trip yes.

I dont know about the +2 on disarm checks

it uses a ranged touch attack, not a normal attack. No extra STR

Yeah I hadn't thought on the ranged not giving an STR bonus. I feel kinda silly for overlooking that one...

I'm not too sure how much the Disarm part of it will come into play. I could see that one being a yes though.

Thanks for the reply.
You can power attack with it, however. Which seems a bit silly if you can't use your Str modifier.
  • Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

Actually, Fire Lash IS a ranged attack, so yes, it provokes an AoO.

  • You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.
  • When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

The Fire Lash is not a whip. Yes, it counts as one for W. Focus, W. Specialization, and other feats, but nothing otherwise suggests it functions at all like a whip, so you do not gain the above benefits.

  • You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

Well, Fire Lash is a ranged attack, so you have to apply your DEX whether you like it or not.

  • You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier.

Again, Fire Lash is a ranged attack. You don't add your STR modifier to the damage.

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The Fire Lash is not a whip. Yes, it counts as one for W. Focus, W. Specialization, and other feats, but nothing otherwise suggests it functions at all like a whip, so you do not gain the above benefits.

That's where we started to really run into questions on this. When you read what the ability does, it refers to it as a whip several times.
That's where we started to really run into questions on this. When you read what the ability does, it refers to it as a whip several times.

Only twice actually.
The first time is in the first sentence, which is just flavor text anyways and is only meant to give a basic idea of what the ability does. Fire lash certainly does resemble a whip, and calling it one isn't exactly incorrect.
The second is in the last sentence, and again, as far as I can see, it's not being used to refer to any kind of actual mechanical whip but simply as a synonym for the Fire Lash.

That being said, the ability IS very vaguely and ambiguously worded, and I wouldn't stake my life on my interpretation. It's all very unclear and easy to confuse, and I hate that they never released any meaningful clarifications, errata, or FAQ entries for it. On the question of whether or not the Fire Lash mechanically functions as a whip for tripping, disarming, otc., I dare not say you are wrong per se. I just say that my interpretation of the ability is that it doesn't use "whip" literally.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Only twice actually.
The first time is in the first sentence, which is just flavor text anyways and is only meant to give a basic idea of what the ability does. Fire lash certainly does resemble a whip, and calling it one isn't exactly incorrect.
The second is in the last sentence, and again, as far as I can see, it's not being used to refer to any kind of actual mechanical whip but simply as a synonym for the Fire Lash.

That being said, the ability IS very vaguely and ambiguously worded, and I wouldn't stake my life on my interpretation. It's all very unclear and easy to confuse, and I hate that they never released any meaningful clarifications, errata, or FAQ entries for it. On the question of whether or not the Fire Lash mechanically functions as a whip for tripping, disarming, otc., I dare not say you are wrong per se. I just say that my interpretation of the ability is that it doesn't use "whip" literally.

True enough. One of our players is a known rules lawyer and God knows we had a good go around when the ability was first used. Sad part is, it's not even his character...

I'll send it in to Sage and see if they'll actually answer it or not.
Normal whips were only Ranged weapons in 3.0

Whips are melee weapons in 3.5

Just figured I'd throw this out there for everyone saying the ranged attack thing. You provoke AoO's like a ranged weapon, but it's still melee.

The Fire Lash may have a statement stating otherwise, since I'm AFB, however.
As it's really a psi-like ability, it doesn't function in any way like a whip except for those ways mentioned in the description. It's explicitly ranged (no question, since attacking calls for a ranged touch attack), but it can benefit from feats that apply to the whip, presumably because it's about the same shape.

If you really need a burning whip that trips people, you can either wait until level 4 and use weapon afire, or douse a supply of whips in oil and light them up as needed.

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It's clear Fire Lash is NOT a whip, as it explicitly states it only counts as a whip for the purposes of taking feats for it that apply to normal whips.

I'm not sure about the disarm, sunder, and trip. At first I figure since it's a whip of fire and immaterial then it can't do such things. I see the ability as more akin to the druid spell flame blade than to an actual, material whip.

Also, since it counts as a ranged attack:

---You can't sunder with it (unless the object is unheld, of course)

---You can't use it to disarm (disarming is melee only and requires an opposed attack roll anyhow, so no worries on the touch attack part). Unless you have the Ranged Disarm feat but the fire lash only allows feats that would apply to whips and since you can't apply Ranged Disarm to a whip, it won't work.

---Tripping wouldn't be a problem, either, since trip attacks are touch attacks. But, you can't trip with a ranged weapon, so again it's useless.

And, yes, the whip weapon itself explicitly states it's a 15-foot reach melee weapon, but provokes AoO as if it were a ranged weapon only.

Honestly, I really don't know why it states that you can take feats for it that apply to standard whips as I don't know any whip-only feats out there. The wording on that is very vague, I think that's the real question to ask Wizards about.

In other words, you can use Power Attack with a whip, does it mean you use Power Attack with fire lash? I assume not, since fire lash is a ranged weapon. Same applies with Combat Expertise, etc. And, you wouldn't be able to take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. because those feats do not apply for standard whips. Other than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization(and the greater and epic versions), I really don't know what other feats are useful for fire lash. Weapon Finesse is another, but since it's a ranged attack, you already apply your Dexterity modifier.

The way I see the ability is basically a "always have a weapon" ability for the pyrokineticist. In other words, if the pyro is bereft of all weapons, he still has a fire lash to dish at opponents. Not much use for anything else, other than burning the hell out of enemy real easily since its a touch attack.
And, you wouldn't be able to take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. because those feats do not apply for standard whips.

There's actually more wrong with your post than this IMO, but those are things that are probably debatable. This, however, is outright wrong. While the ability states that the Fire Lash benefits from feats that would apply to a whip, it doesn't say that it ONLY benefits from feats applying to a whip. It could in fact benefit from Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
There's actually more wrong with your post than this IMO, but those are things that are probably debatable. This, however, is outright wrong. While the ability states that the Fire Lash benefits from feats that would apply to a whip, it doesn't say that it ONLY benefits from feats applying to a whip. It could in fact benefit from Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.

How so? It isn't a ranged weapon in respect to feats, it's only a standard whip in respect to feats. You can't have it both ways. It'd be a pretty broken ability if so.

Also, it's a psi-like ability. You can't take feats for psi-like abilities unless they're meta-psi-like abilities like Empower Psi-Like ability and such. Which wouldn't work on this particular psi-like ability at all, anyway, as stated on page 184 of the XPH. What it does specifically state, however, is that you can take feats like Weapon Focus and Specialization and feats that would work for standard whips. But not anything else.
I looked through the D&D FAQ and on page 56 got this:

Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of
fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str
bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this
special weapon?


It would seem so. The wording in the description of this
psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat
that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of
those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to
apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.


In other words, not even the developers know their own wording. He seemed as confused with that answer as he was answering it. If anything, I would bring this thread to Bruce Cordell's attention somehow. Maybe he can clarify.
Expand Spell-like Ability = 30' whip. (maybe - and for how long?)

Crack that whip.
Give the past the slip.
Step on a crack.
Break your psicrystal's back.

Pyrokineticist comes along.
You must whip it.
Before Minor Creation sits out too long.
You must whip it.
When something's going wrong.
You must whip it.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

The only solution to this problem is to rewrite the class.

Needs to be done. Badly.
Or WotC could do a better job and focus their funding more on proofreaders, errata, and R&D rather than coming out with yet another jacked-up edition of D&D which will be as error-laden for years as all the other editions.
The only solution to this problem is to rewrite the class.

Needs to be done. Badly.

It's already been done badly. I'd say it needs to be done well.
It isn't a ranged weapon in respect to feats, it's only a standard whip in respect to feats.

False, I'm afraid. It counts as a whip with respect to feats, but nothing about the ability begins to suggest you cannot apply the benefits of other feats that could normally be applied to it. Otherwise, for example, you're suggestion to take meta-psi-like-ability feats wouldn't work because you can't apply those to whips. Also, for the record before we get there, you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks that aren't weapons; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc. can all be applied to things like ray attacks as well (though since most ray attacks are standard actions, you can't apply Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc., but theoretically, you could with a Fire Lash).

I'll also take this opportunity to note how incredibly faulty the FAQ's reasoning on the matter is. I am SO glad it's rulings aren't considered RAW like the errata is. Power Attack only applies to melee attacks, and there is nothing about the ability that suggests it's treated as a whip in order to apply your STR damage.

You know what? I swear I don't even care that 4E is just around the corner. I'm rewriting the Pyrokineticist to make it's abilities more clear. You can all look forward to seeing the finished product on this board by months' end...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I think the biggest problem with the current wording of the Fire Lash ability is the awkwardness of the implementation of the whip in 3E, and the changes it underwent from 3.0 to 3.5 (which don't seem to have been accounted for in the XPH pyrokineticist).

The 3.0 whip was treated as a thrown weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range increment and which doesn't leave the hand when thrown. The Fire Lash ability mimics this almost perfectly. The 3.5 whip, by contrast, is a reach weapon that provokes attacks of opportunity when used, and which the wielder can't use to threaten attacks of opportunity. If the designers wanted Fire Lash to continue to be used like a whip, they should have completely rewritten it to take these changes into account.
False, I'm afraid. It counts as a whip with respect to feats, but nothing about the ability begins to suggest you cannot apply the benefits of other feats that could normally be applied to it. Otherwise, for example, you're suggestion to take meta-psi-like-ability feats wouldn't work because you can't apply those to whips. Also, for the record before we get there, you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks that aren't weapons; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc. can all be applied to things like ray attacks as well (though since most ray attacks are standard actions, you can't apply Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc., but theoretically, you could with a Fire Lash).

I'll also take this opportunity to note how incredibly faulty the FAQ's reasoning on the matter is. I am SO glad it's rulings aren't considered RAW like the errata is. Power Attack only applies to melee attacks, and there is nothing about the ability that suggests it's treated as a whip in order to apply your STR damage.

You know what? I swear I don't even care that 4E is just around the corner. I'm rewriting the Pyrokineticist to make it's abilities more clear. You can all look forward to seeing the finished product on this board by months' end...

Again, you seem to only see what you want to see instead of what is already stated.

It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right.
Again, you seem to only see what you want to see instead of what is already stated.

It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right.

Fire Lash states that you can apply feats to it that work with a normal whip. It never mentions what feats can't be applied to it. Presumably, any feat that could normally be applied to a psi-like ability that deals fire damage with a ranged touch attack can be applied to Fire Lash, because it is such an ability and does not explicitly forbid those feats to be used.
It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right.

That only is where your problem is. Check your XPH. It never says only.

To reiterate what CrimsonDeath said, the ability to apply whip feats, etc. is clearly and by RAW in addition to the normal feats it would be able to utilize. Read your XPH:
Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.

NOWHERE does it suggest this applies instead of normal feats the ability would otherwise qualify for or that such other feats are excluded in any way. It is very clearly a simple exception rule.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Alright.

You can use the feats, improved trip and improved disarm with a whip. To apply these feats to the fire lash you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash.

Can you sunder with a whip? As it is it doesn't deal lethal damage, so you should be able to sunder with a fire lash.
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To apply these feats to the fire lash you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash.

There are two ways to read this sentence, so please clarify what you mean. Do you mean:

A) In order to apply these feats to the fire lash, you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash in the first place.

or

B) Because you can apply these feats to the fire lash, you must therefore be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash.

Because A is correct, but B is very, very wrong...

One cannot use Improved Trip or Improved Disarm with the Fire Lash. Those actions require melee attacks, and Fire Lash is very explicitly a ranged attack.

If you mean B, your reasoning is fallacious. I can use the same reasoning to say:
Because I can take the Skill Focus (Speak Language) feat to gain a +3 bonus to Speak Language checks, I must therefore be able to make Speak Language checks.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Thing is, you can apply those feats to a whip, so you CAN apply them to the flame lash.
By the description, the feats you gain the ability to take must:
A)Be taken in conjunction with the fire lash.
B)Apply to a standard whip.

Improved Trip and Improved Disarm cannot be taken in conjunction with a standard whip. They cannot be taken in conjunction with any specific weapon; their benefits apply to all valid weapons. Because you cannot take them in specific conjunction with a standard whip, they aren't relevant to this ability.

You could potentially read the part about conjunction being specific to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, except that feats which can merely affect a whip without being specificially linked to it could already be taken by a pyrokineticist (assuming they met the other requirements).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

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Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Thing is, you can apply those feats to a whip, so you CAN apply them to the flame lash.

All right then; I'll play this game again.

If you have Improved Trip, you gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent, and if you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

All right, so it looks like since it specifies melee combat, you won't be getting the free melee attack after the trip attempt, but hey, if you make a trip attempt with the Flame Lash, you still get the +4 bonus, right? But that right there's the problem. The feats doesn't grant you the ability to trip with a ranged weapon, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Unless you obtain the ability to make ranged trips, you can't make use of Improved Trip's benefits with the Fire Lash. Furthermore, if you DO gain the ability to trip with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Trip without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip."

The same applies with Improved Disarm or whatever else. Until you actually gain the ability to disarm with the Fire Lash, you can't make any use of the feat's benefits, because the feat doesn't grant you the ability to disarm with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to disarm with. And again, if you DO gain the ability to disarm with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Disarm without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip."

So yes, you CAN apply those feats to the Fire Lash the same way you CAN apply them to a Longbow. That doesn't mean you can actually make use of the feats or benefit from them if you otherwise couldn't.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Alright lets go to the source.

From the SRD
Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.

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Um...Ha, ha?

:P
Alright lets go to the source.

From the SRD

We've been to the source multiple times, dear. I quoted it before myself and underlined that same part. Quoting the source still does not help your case. It helps mine. :P Yes, it says you can apply feats that apply to the use of a whip, but that's not my question. I already know that is the case. My question is:

Where does it say you cannot apply feats that Fire Lash would otherwise qualify for?
Those for Psi-like abilities or ranged attacks, for example.

Unless it's shown that Fire Lash actually says that (which it doesn't), Fire Lash is mechanically assumed to benefit from such feats as normal. What part of what I'm saying are you not understanding?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
It qualifies for those feats because it qualifies for them.

It's kind of self-explanitory.

Seriously.
It qualifies for those feats because it qualifies for them.

It's kind of self-explanitory.

Seriously.

Who was this directed towards and in what context? Because I feel like you're agreeing with me, but I thought we were on opposite sides just a second ago.

EDIT: Furthermore, while we're at it, what was the context of your last post?
You're posts are a little vague as to what you're referring to.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Flame Lash qualifies for both feats that affect whips (such as Improved Trip and Weapon Focus: Whip) as well as for feats that affect Spell/Psi-Like Abilities.
Flame Lash qualifies for both feats that affect whips (such as Improved Trip and Weapon Focus: Whip) as well as for feats that affect Spell/Psi-Like Abilities.

I think this is reasonable.... however Fire Lashes won't really qualify for anything (I can think of) since it has no caster level or spell level.


A combo just occured to me...
Fire Lash+Psionic Shot. Ranged Touch attack with 1d8+2d6 is nice. Add in Weapon Afire, upgrade to Greater Psionic Shot, Psicrystal Containment... and that's 2 ranged touch attacks dealing 1d8+2d6+4d6. Though you'd have to be 12th level (9 if human, 6 if 1 level of PsyWarrior)[just did this, so there's probably a better way to do it].

PS: I think you may also get Point Blank Shot with it too....
Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot don't stack, I'm afraid.
Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot don't stack, I'm afraid.

Yeah they dont. 1d8(Fire Lash base)+2d6(Weapon Afire)+4d6(Greater Psionic Shot). Weapon Afire should apply because the Fire Lash is a weapon, though opinions may differ on that.
Heh. Shows how much attention I'm paying today.
Where does it say you cannot apply feats that Fire Lash would otherwise qualify for?
Those for Psi-like abilities or ranged attacks, for example.

Unless it's shown that Fire Lash actually says that (which it doesn't), Fire Lash is mechanically assumed to benefit from such feats as normal. What part of what I'm saying are you not understanding?

Looks like a case of crossed wires. We both thought the other was saying something that they where not.

Edit]Scratch that. I reread the thread are your wire appear to be crossed. I argued for certain actions and feats to be allowed. not that some would be disallowed.[/edit]
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[Edit]Scratch that. I reread the thread are your wire appear to be crossed. I argued for certain actions and feats to be allowed. not that some would be disallowed.[/edit]

I was confusing you with Razz in my last post directed towards you. Please forgive me.

THIS posts, answering Lycanthromancer, addresses your concern about tripping, disarming, etc., I think?
If you have Improved Trip, you gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent, and if you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

All right, so it looks like since it specifies melee combat, you won't be getting the free melee attack after the trip attempt, but hey, if you make a trip attempt with the Flame Lash, you still get the +4 bonus, right? But that right there's the problem. The feats doesn't grant you the ability to trip with a ranged weapon, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Unless you obtain the ability to make ranged trips, you can't make use of Improved Trip's benefits with the Fire Lash. Furthermore, if you DO gain the ability to trip with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Trip without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip."

The same applies with Improved Disarm or whatever else. Until you actually gain the ability to disarm with the Fire Lash, you can't make any use of the feat's benefits, because the feat doesn't grant you the ability to disarm with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to disarm with. And again, if you DO gain the ability to disarm with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Disarm without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip."

So yes, you CAN apply those feats to the Fire Lash the same way you CAN apply them to a Longbow. That doesn't mean you can actually make use of the feats or benefit from them if you otherwise couldn't.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!